Is anyone ever going to organize a The Mole game on here

For large social games such as Survivor where the primary mechanic is social interaction.
Ether
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Post Post #8  (isolation #0)  » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:25 pm

Hi! I'm typing this here, but we talked in SiteChat. I was Telephone Cat.

All of the Mole games run in the past few years, to my knowledge, have been abandoned. (Blackberry's Toadstool Traitor series has the most famous completed mole games on the site. They had activity problems too, but I think those were mod-side.) This isn't the only site I've seen that pattern on. I like The Mole and I've thought about running one too, but there are a lot of issues that make running one a lot trickier than something like Survivor.

Winning The Mole on the show isn't binary; you have to weigh getting to the end vs. actually getting decent money for winning. On forums, the prize is imaginary, so lots of people will just ignore it entirely and blatantly shit on everything to maximize their chances of getting to the end. And yeah, if you want to only let in people who'll cooperate, then that's your prerogative, but it's sacrificing a major facet of the show*.

So generally you want to make the win condition binary somehow, and then find an incentive for people to work together anyway even though most of them will lose. Usually that means putting in a way for the mole to win if the pot is too low. The trouble is that deciding what's "too low" is kind of hard. Setting the bar is easy when the players are competing against each other, they're doing it for you. In The Mole, you need to figure it out yourself.

Activity's also an issue. Survivor votes out inactive players who can't defend themselves; The Mole doesn't really stop them from coasting as long as they're still handing in their quizzes. And The Mole challenges tend to require all hands on deck--the show can't go on without them so well. Vetting the playerlist helps, but you don't really get failsafes if people flake anyway.

So yeah...I think the issues with The Mole are kind of built into the framework of the game. There are ways to get around some of them, kind of, but they're awkward, and mods need to keep all of that stuff in mind or the game will fail. Sorry for the wall.

*And at that point, you could just run a cooperative challenge that isn't the Mole? Like, you talked about lower player sizes. So why not just put 3-6 players together with one of them as a saboteur and run them through a bunch of challenges with no quizzes eliminations at all? Then tally up their successes, make everyone agree on a ranking of who's most likely to be the mole, and decide whether they all won or lost based on those two conditions. I'm just spitballing here, but honestly this feels way easier to run than The Mole. Hell, someone poke me about this after Team Mafia.

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Post Post #10  (isolation #1)  » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:33 pm

Harambey wrote:and also for how well they did in challenges,
Elaborate on this?

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Post Post #13  (isolation #2)  » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:48 pm

Individuals aren't really supposed to carry Mole challenges, though; it's supposed to be cooperative. And on top of making some kinds of challenges impossible, it throws in incentives to sabotage other people's scores as long as it doesn't hurt yours. You can complain about people playing the game wrong, but it really does boil down to bad incentives. Vetting is just a band-aid.

You could weight the leaderboard so that games that earned more total money are worth more, I guess.

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Post Post #15  (isolation #3)  » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:03 pm

They totally do exist.

But the next question you need to ask yourself is: if what you want is selfless cooperation at all times, is The Mole still the best format for it?

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Post Post #20  (isolation #4)  » Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:56 pm

It'd be interesting to see one of those! People have talked about parallel mole games, but I don't know of anyone actually trying it, on-site or off.

I have scattered notes for one too. It's just, like...it was a really stupidly ambitious game, and the split town meant it had 24 players, and with The Mole's track record of getting abandoned, I kind of chickened out. x_x

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Post Post #44  (isolation #5)  » Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:31 am

I can link to a bunch of finished ones. But they're all very, very old.

Also, I'm really curious now what challenges Harambey's got up his own sleeve.

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Post Post #58  (isolation #6)  » Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:18 am

In post 8, Ether wrote:*And at that point, you could just run a cooperative challenge that isn't the Mole? Like, you talked about lower player sizes. So why not just put 3-6 players together with one of them as a saboteur and run them through a bunch of challenges with no quizzes or eliminations at all? Then tally up their successes, make everyone agree on a ranking of who's most likely to be the mole, and decide whether they all won or lost based on those two conditions. I'm just spitballing here, but honestly this feels way easier to run than The Mole. Hell, someone poke me about this after Team Mafia.

Team Mafia is over and this still stands if people are interested.
As I move my vote
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It fills my head up and gets louder and LOUDER

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Post Post #62  (isolation #7)  » Fri Apr 20, 2018 3:19 pm

In post 60, Harambey180 wrote:I'm thinking about doing it but I have no idea how I'd have to organize it. Even if I had an idea, I'd have to get everything clear for myself by talking to, for example, the LSG mods. And then still I'd be quite lost and probably wouldn't want to be the host :/

If you want to share the challenge ideas you were talking about before, I can potentially use them to put something together. (The hybrid game, to be clear, not a full mole game. Thaaaaaaaat's gonna be a long time.)
As I move my vote
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It fills my head up and gets louder and LOUDER

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Post Post #64  (isolation #8)  » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:55 am

That makes the game REALLY townsided, though. The conflict between trying to grab exemptions and add money--and the plausible deniability it offers to the mole--are important parts of the game. There's a reason that the exemptions on the show are offered in spots that'll add more conflict.

Giving the town some outlets to fuck over people who keep sabotaging (stuff like pre-emptive neutralizers, not actually voting people out or anything that could hurt the real mole) could help a bit. Really I think either a split town or some minimum amount of money needed to stop everyone from losing are mandatory, and probably some vetting.
As I move my vote
Towards your wagon, town is taking note
It fills my head up and gets louder and LOUDER


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