Team Mafia 2018: Mafiosi Revolution (Over)

[Patrick]

Hi.

[Patrick]

OK, I've read through the entire thread, and it makes me feel extremely old. It would be lovely if at least one person would talk to me in real time after this post is made.

Mulch, despite feeling like a spambot at the start has read more genuine to me as the game has gone on. I thought his responses to Transcends unusual Toranga vote were perfectly reasonable coming from town, and I don't see what Transcend is jumping at. If someone you're unsure/maybe suspicious of votes someone you think is town, isn't it normal to ask why? Im see the followup in post 410, but can't say it resonates with me.

Really like Cheet's meta-dive on Unabombah, who feels awkward to me in his early posts as well.

@Cheet: Seems unlikely to me that Una made up that he believed he had missed a lot of game-time, whereas I think he'd be more alert to the gamestate as scum.

I'm kind of upset that this is resonating with me.
):

Is this a very strong point? If he has been busy the past few days and lost track of when game's were starting, I'm not sure why being scum would make him more alert to the gamestate.

Kmd feels off to me. I do think it's possible the team chat was put in the thread just to show indecision, and I always remembered Kmd as a more direct player than that. Admitedly, my meta might be about 6 years old, heh.

I'm also supposed to tell spiff from Mathdino to fuck off because our team is arguing behind the scenes about reads and it's perfectly fine to present different arguments just like a Hydra would. He must have read something I haven't yet.

This seems a bit feigned in it's aggressiveness. I feel like you would understand the point Spiffeh is making even if I don't expect you to agree with his interpretation.

Vote: Kmd4390

. Also leery of Unabombah. Cheetory reads very town to me, and to a lesser extent Mulch and Transend do as well. I like that Mulch hasn't just focussed on a tunnel of Transcend, as would be easy to do as scum, and is prodding and poking at other people as well.

Now, since about a million people have posted while I was writing that, maybe a bit of real life chatter would be nice.

[Patrick]

FWIW I think meta is a useful tool, but I feel like I know very little about people in this game.

Mulch, do you prefer scum roles, then?

[Patrick]

Holy shit this guy is from 2006

=/

[Patrick]

I mean, it's not a terrible vote. I haven't had any townvibes from Chara but that's about it. What made her a better vote than Mulch, who you've used strong words about?

[Patrick]

Hi Patrick congrats on pocketing me!

Thanks, I think.

The "Mulch is an asshole and therefore probably town" feels weird to me. Don't really see your point on the Kagami read given the stipulation that Cabd has skimmed and would be coming back with more time later. I'm more interested in what he posts than in voting him atm.

[Patrick]

I think that as scum it could be posturing about Kagami to try to make them feel like there's some kind of effort being directed towards trying to parse them and/or setting tasks/goals to hold himself accountable to doing specific tasks (which is something I've done before in the past as scum to keep myself motivated).

I guess that's a possible interpretation. I just also easily imagine town having one or two people they want to sort as a priority. Anyhow, interested to see what Cabd has to say.

[Patrick]

Hi Patrick congrats on pocketing me!

See cheetory it’s weird little things like this that make me feel uneasy
But I sort of think ur town regardless of the weird things

Pocketing just means town reading, or something more? Why was this comment weird?

[Patrick]

Last time I played was the last team mafia, Twin Trap. Before that, an invitational in 2014, and another in 2013, I think.

[Patrick]

I think I'd like implosion to complete wherever he was going in his dialogue with Mulch.

speaking of low hanging fruit, I'd absolutely lynch aristophanes and don't care that his flip gives 'no information'.

Why?

[Patrick]

I think I'd like implosion to complete wherever he was going in his dialogue with Mulch.

speaking of low hanging fruit, I'd absolutely lynch aristophanes and don't care that his flip gives 'no information'.

Why?

The dialouge feels scummy to me tbh

I don't much like any of what he's posted so far. I'm not interested in seeing that argument continue, more interested in implosion telling us what he's thinking.

[Patrick]

At the very least I feel like I should be townreading you by now and I'm not. There's a particular lack of oomph to what you're doing this game and this careful tiptoeing/pokey approach to me/Spiff that I don't really think townYou does.

This interests me, because the only time I've ever seen Spiffeh play was in another Ether-mod game where he looked to me obvtown but was mislynched. In this game I feel like I agree with a fair number of his points, but don't townread him. Is he normally an easy read as town?

implosion looks alot better than last night. I'm curious about both the townreads expressed in 999 though. Why would KMD's post about partner elaboration be a hard one to make as scum? He's right, but the post looks super null to me.

I think I totally underestimated Mulch. Still not very interested in him right now, but his stated preference for picking a scum role is relevant.

Spiffeh: why are you voting Cabd atm? Sorry if this is explained somewhere but I don't see it. I felt you actually had a valid point on kmd.

To those implying suspicion of me, I loathe playing as scum. There is no way in hell I took a scum role when I feel this out of touch with the site, unless my team literally got 3+ scum role PMs. I feel scuzzy bringing that up, but it's part of this competition and not something I'm going to ignore on other people either. If my posting style bothers you, it's likely to do so for the entire game. Iso me in Twin Trap, or read my posts in the 2014 UK scummers invitational that I'm too lazy to link to. I'm actually pretty easy to read.

I feel alot better about implosion and Unabomba. I'm unsure if I'm just seeing ghosts on KMD because he's posted alot of stuff relevant to the game and talked about a good number of people, but I get an empty feeling from the apparent internal turmoil in his team about reads in this game, whereas I feel like I often townread that kind of thing. No clue on Cabd, and Kagami seems entirely unimpressive so far. Probably worth a read of 4:8 Nightless, but that'll have to be for another day. I'd like to hear from Aris, but comments from Cheet/implosion suggest to me that slot is not worth focussing on now.

[Patrick]

Ha. Misread that completely. Must admit I have jack all read on Firebringer at this point.

Still, did you think anything of Spiffs self analysis, since a previous post of yours said you had some thoughts on it?

[Patrick]

Guys, this is fucking stupid. I don't want to get home from work again and logon to read more and more pages of Mulch/Transcend arguing, especially when it seems to have gone well beyond alignment. If one or both of you are town, stop, take a few deep breaths and do whatever you need to calm down. We get that the two of you are suspicious of each other. There are 13 other players in the game.

If I'm being completely honest here, I look at the 15 players and realize we have an extra lynch before LyLo and my brain goes lmao policy

Why are you fanning the flames of this anyway? I thought you were suspicious of Transcend?

[Patrick]

If Transcend is scum why are you pushing a Mulch policy lynch?

[Patrick]

Oh we're back to this again? Shit I was starting to enjoy this game.

It's great isn't it

[Patrick]

I read the post where you voted him. Doesn't mean it makes sense: if you think Transcend is scum, pushing the guy he's voting seems unnatural to me unless you also have a strong scum read on them, which is not what I'm getting from your posts.

It also felt like you were trying to get a rise out of Mulch rather than calm him down

[Patrick]

and Mulch having the tendency to not actually vote his top scum reads, it's pretty much useless.

Mulch is voting for Transcend.

[Patrick]

Would like to see Transcend link a Mulch game where he does something like this as promised.

FWIW, I skimmed the game cabd linked to earlier and it looked like Mulch was doing something similar in that one. Not especially keen on reading a bunch of other games as I'm quite prepared to believe he's done it as both alignments.

I think my read on Kmd might have been wrong. Would much rather

Vote: Ginngie

[Patrick]

Not really. It gave me the impression he gets extremely riled up as town and is good at replicating it when scum. Replicating not quite the right word, I think he does get riled up as scum, but is good at using it.

What difference am I missing?

[Patrick]

Cheet, CDB would like to know what you meant by your 1096, with permission to explain as if we're 5 year olds asking.

[Patrick]

That's pretty comfortably middle aged.

[Patrick]

Kagami looks much more like trying to figure things out than before. Katsuki read on me sounds like something he would say based on our history. He might also try to buddy up to me based on our history, but it feels decent to me.

I don't think Ginngie looks especially town in any of her posts, and her approach to Transcend / Mulch looked off to me. Firebringers vote on Ginngie was actively unhelpful, essentially turning the case against her into one of not being active enough, which is easily refuted. Can someone who has this slot as obvtown clue me in as to why.

I still don't get an ounce of scumminess from either side of the Mulch Transcend argument, and that hasn't changed with Transcend's replacement. It does make me feel extremely lazy whenever I read any part of it though. Mulch mason claim at the start of the game seems obviously null and I'm amazed that debate has had so much screen time.

Cabd doesn't sound like he's scumhunting. If I'm being thick somewhere apologies, but I'd like it clarified whether or not he's claiming Friendly Neighbour. I don't find the ambiguity helpful when trying to get my head round a 15 player game that's grown at this rate. If that is a roleclaim, then he's obviously off the table.

I'm quickly remembering why I didn't play in large games, because there's a whole boatload of players I gave little to no read on. Firebringer feels completely null to me, Chara likewise (though CDB seemed to like her for town). Toranaga no read, but half the playerlist saying he's obvtown, Aris pretty much no content, but probably town for meta reasons. Spiffeh no clue.

I'm covering the evening shift at work tonight so should be able to at least sneak on. If anyone wants to give me a specific task or follow up on anything in more detail then go for it, might help me focus on something in this game. Atm I'm going largely on gut and broad brushes.

[Patrick]

More than likely we are doing Cabd or Kagami today and i see you focusing there, so go more into that

OK.

My recollection of Kagami's scum play from the last team mafia was that he replaced into 4:8 Nightless and spent all game going after the same two people for sketchy reasons. Quickly rereading that, he feels different here. I liked the dialogue with Kmd and the change of heart from KMD scummy/Spiff town to KMD towny/Spiff scummy, it looks natural to me, and I think faking natural changes of opinion is one of the harder things to do as scum. It would be easy to just keep bashing KMD for his odd Mulch-townread and try to shove that down our throats as a pairing.

I've been to I think 3 meets with Katsuki and he fancies he can read me pretty well, so that read was believable. He probably remembers I like being called town as well, but it doesn't seem especially beneficial to buddy up to me when you can just lightly support the paranoia and maybe try to mislynch me later.

I don't agree on the strength of the Mulch-scum case, but it doesn't feel like bullshit.

So although it seems like Kagami's name is popping up alot as a lynch candidate, I don't really understand why - leaning town on him.

As for Cabd, it feels pretty shitty now with his current situation but pretty much what I said in my last post - it doesn't seem like he's doing much. His reason for reading Kagami as town seemed artificial to me and the kind of thing I could imagine making up as scum. But for obvious reasons, that one needs a bit of time (and still clarifying at least for my sake whether the Friendly Neighbour claim is real).

Why is it more than likely that we're lynching one of these two today?

[Patrick]

What sort of a question is that?

When I read it I don't feel like it's scum fabricating a case. I expect you to reject it, obviously.

[Patrick]

Their reads on people have changed over the course of the game. I even gave examples. Do you mean something else by reads progression? Or just that they've been on you all game is scummy?

[Patrick]

Reads progrsssuon on me dude

He locked me as wolf on page 7 and hasn’t changed his vote

In the other game I felt like he went after 2 people for bad reasons and tried to rigidly fit a view of the game into a Hoopla/GreyIce shaped hole. This game he's gone after you for reasons I don't find bad, and seems to be trying to work with and sort people.

?????????
Do you really think there is any chance in hell we're lynching Cabd at this point???

I'm still not sure whether to read it as a claim or just a test of Kagami's alignment? It seems like Ginnstie isn't sure and 2 people are still voting Cabd, both of whom have posted since the alledged claim. That's mainly why I was looking for it to be confirmed or denied.

[Patrick]

Back and forth on the last page or so seems very town to me. No doubt all Mulch attackers and Mulch himself will tell me he produces all that stuff as scum anyway, but meh

One question though, why Firebringer town? On ISO he's one of the few players I don't get any town feel from any posts. Not much scummy there either, but I can easily imagine his posts as scum.

[Patrick]

Back and forth on the last page or so seems very town to me. No doubt all Mulch attackers and Mulch himself will tell me he produces all that stuff as scum anyway, but meh

One question though, why Firebringer town? On ISO he's one of the few players I don't get any town feel from any posts. Not much scummy there either, but I can easily imagine his posts as scum.

I’m unreadable for most unless they know me

I expected that sort of answer. But it feels like for practically any conceivable vote, there will be at least one person claiming that player is obvtown for meta reasons, so at some point I have to look past that.

Who do you think is scum again?

[Patrick]

Only clear one I obtained from your iso was your current vote on Kagami. You mentioned Spiffeh but then kind of town-read him but then clarified it was null, you mentioned Cabd but that seems out of date. Basically Kagami then?

Gingie I thought looked a bit better tonally, I'm not really convinced she's town for a few curse words alone. Who is her main, on the offchance I've seen it before? Unless that's secret.

Spiffeh I think looks worse, not so much for interaction with Gingie, which I thought was plausible as either alignment, but for his last post. Splitting the hairs of push v naked vote doesn't seem good to me.

Unvote, vote: Spiffeh

[Patrick]

Calling it a push when one doesn't exist looks like he doesn't really care if he's misrepresenting me as long as he can further discredit someone voting against him.
Like sure maybe he's just bad at mafia and thinks everyone that dares to mention him as a lynch target is scum but in a game where I'm struggling to form concrete scum reads maybe the badness is just scumminess?

This just seems blustery to me I guess? I don't think the distinction between push and naked vote was that important in that context, if you're voting someone then you are on some level pushing them, even if not shouting about how they're obvscum. I also don't feel like everyone who goes after him is automatically called scum, and that's pretty shaky line of attack even if true. Do you find that reliably comes from scum?

I feel like I've seen spiff struggle to get reads as town before. I'm gonna try to find it

Seems pretty believable anyway without an example.

Pretty lost atm, because Spiffeh doesn't feel especially scummy in the last couple of pages prodding Tor and commenting on Firebringer, nor does Ginggie, but there are 3 scum out there and I can't confidently name one. I think Spiffeh is still in scumrange though going after Tor who has been written off by a lot of people doesn't seem very scum like. My read on Cabd pretty depends entirely on whether he's claiming Friendly Neighbour, as I assume that would be a daft claim to make if not true.

Odd question, but am I being too naive in reading Mulch's page 65/66 posts as town? The readslist in particular looked very genuine town to me, but it obviously hasn't hit that note for many others so I wonder if that's largely meaningless. I didn't get as strong a vibe from Eddie's posting, but he seems to be trying to get reads on people and I don't see anything that makes me grimace.

Not really done with this, but BSG beckons.

[Patrick]

Chara/KMD/Kagami/Patrick/Implosion/Ari/Fire/Mulch/Una

why should i not lynch u :O

Because I'd rather drink a bottle of bleach than take a scum role in this game. The difference between me and some others is that nobody knows me, so they're not telling everyone about how obviously true this is, leaving only me to say it. I took a town token in the last team mafia to reduce the chances of having to do community service, and I'd even selfishly thought about what I'd argue for why I shouldn't be it, in the event that my team did get 3 scum roles. My last game as scum was a UK scummers invitational, maybe the game or scumtopic would give more insight into why I hate it: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=47699

As to your earlier comment, I haven't made many posts because I have to sleep, eat and work, and even ideally not spend all the remaining time in front of the computer on mafiascum. The fast growing game and spammy sometimes toxic meta that is apparently the norm now haven't exactly helped. I think I was a good player around 2007-2008, and still a decent F2F one, but feel pretty ineffective atm. Kudos to all those who are also eating sleeping and working and are able to keep up to speed and make 40 posts a day I guess?

Since it's the in thing, let's do some quick impressions of everyone.

Cheetory - still seems solidly town to me. Seems to be trying to solve the game
implosion - also seems to trying to work things out. However, wouldn't put it outside of good scumplay, and he did sound a bit off to me very early. Town lean with caution
Kagami - discussed Kagami not long ago, don't see the case against him. Fluffy looking wagon largely composed of people in my uncertain category, and Spiffeh positioning himself to join, doesn't seem likely to be on scum.
Mulch - oh god. Mainly whenever I think about meta, I'm afraid he might have picked scum, and that he's good at faking being town. When I read his posts themselves, I think he's town.
Eddie skirt - Transcend I thought sounded more genuine than not, Eddie reads to me more like trying to figure things out than throw around alot of shit to confuse us.
Cabd - still waiting on the claim. Would consider as a lynch based on play alone.
Toranaga - no idea, have just more or less assumed town because of the number of people claiming straightforward meta.
Aristophanes - As above. Stuff he's put in the thread I can at least connect with
Spiffeh - one of the least town, I think. Could see all his posts as coming from scum so far.
Firebringer - meh
Unabombah - don't really remember what he thinks of anything. Awkward early but could just have been emoticons and ESL. Would be really interested in his list.
Chara - meh
Ginngie - slightly better than meh now.
Kmd - not actually super town despite a lot of content. Only time I modded him as scum he was very active and involved, and got townread hard. Probably one I should reread closely and try to pin down what's holding me back from townreading him.

Not actually alot of scumminess in the game having put that together! Think I'll reread Kmd tomorrow.

[Patrick]

I probably could, but won't. Instead I'll give some excuse about the hour of night and becoming lazy.

[Patrick]

Kagami, what do you think you do differently as town and scum?

[Patrick]

Kind of feel like this is missing the point of what Transcend was saying/doing? Like, the issue isn't that Mulch questioned it, Transcend was saying that the degree to which Mulch reacted to Transcend pushing him vs Transcend pushing someone that Mulch was townreading was disproportionate. It seems like you're acknowledging this by saying you read 410 but then I don't really understand why you left the bit in about Transcend pushing Mulch for the Toranaga vote in this post. Or if you felt like the reasoning Transcend was using had changed at some point, it doesn't really seem like you checked back to see if it squared up and just accepted 410 at face value which would be kind of weird.

Reading the thread, it looked like Transcend's point was that Mulch was only concerned about suspicion towards himself, and too relaxed when it was placed on Toranaga. I found Mulch's response pretty proportionate and would have found it more weird if he'd gone mad, or ignored it. I thought his response was pretty normal and not deserving of the attention Transcend gave it. If your point is that my paragraph didn't need the sentence starting "If someone you're..." then you're probably right.

Quoted post is him relaying a teammate's thoughts so I'm really unsure why you were getting on KMD's case for seeming fake when it's emotional telephone. Would probably be a lot more weird if it wasn't feigned?

It struck an odd note to me when I read it, sometimes scum put that stuff on, and misjudge when they would do it as town. I'm not sure why it being mathdino matters, if Kmd is scum, his teammates commenting on the game are also scum, any reactions and any scumhunting influenced by knowing everyone's alignment. I'm not saying that I thought Kmd's first hand reaction was "fuck off...", maybe that's where the misinterpretation is. Tbh now you've made me reread it, I feel the same as I did then.

For example, if I relayed a message from CDB right now telling you to fuck off and stop questioning me, how would you read it?

Can I get some words on why for the bolded?

Initially Unabombah felt awkward to me. Lots of emoticons, lots of jokey/spammy posts. He gave what seemed like a few serious reads: Firebringer maybe town for replace out, liked Transcend, but sort of weakened them later by saying pretty much all his posts have been jokes up until then. 261 gave me a gut pang with both lines, especially "Transcend is garbage town", even though that comment can make sense logically.

He made a series of posts between that post and my next that look a lot better, especially 920. Liked him joining me on Kmd, liked what initially looked like an attack on Spiffeh turning into a townread on Spiffeh - it looked pretty organic to me. He seemed to not be hammering on soft popular targets that nervous/meh scum might, and instead doing his own thing (Kmd & Aris, yes, I didn't agree with scumread on Aris either).

Right now he feels a lot less involved, and I want to hear from him about his reads. Pretty on the fence about his alignment.

Pedit about 6 million posts, time to read those.

[Patrick]

Pedit about 6 million posts, time to read those.

=/

[Patrick]

I'll do something useful after eating, maybe. Couldn't actually bring myself to read it all, probably won't. Mulch still read legit to me.

[Patrick]

Patrick, was that Boost Mafia where I bussed the shit out of Mastina just to get town cred and get boosted and it worked but we still lost the game? Also, you said you don't see the case on Kagami. Have you read any of what I said about Kagami and you disagree with it or...?

I read back and I think this is the meat of it:

It was mostly the way she approached my reasoning for Mulch being town. I had her as maybe gut scum before that anyway, but she didn't seem to be trying to understand my logic when for townreading Mulch at first. I called her out for it and suddenly she started attacking me for inconsistencies that simply weren't there. Then when I pushed back, suddenly she's townreading me again. It didn't feel like natural progression. I asked her why and somehow it's meta from a game that I was really too busy to play which doesn't at all fit how I'm playing here. The way she reacted to cabd's soft claim was weird too. Like, someone said as scum she probably wouldn't out it and would just save it for the PT, but I'm not sure that's 100% true. But my issue wasn't really her outing it. It was the way she instantly trusted it despite once being part of a scum team that successfully pulled off a friendly neighbor fakeclaim. It feels too much like "well, this lynch is off the table" rather than "ok, we'll give him a chance to prove it". Mulch has also mentioned the way Kagami has been latched on to him for pretty much the entire game. I'm not entirely sure this is scummy, but it's one more thing you can consider.

Regarding Kagami's interaction you, I thought the change of mind looked natural and would not have been a move that scum-Kagami would have felt pressured to make, since your reason for town-reading Mulch didn't make sense, at least certainly not to the degree you were pushing it. If scum-Mulch felt town-Toranga was going to be quickly read as town this game, I don't think a light hearted mason claim would be out of the question whatsoever. I think asking "what does scum Mulch get out of it?" is the wrong question entirely - not everything done by scum is for a clear benefit.

Not arguing Mulch is scum for doing it, but I didn't agree with your thoughts on that at all, and though Kagami's questions were appropriate.

As to the other game, I haven't read it but it sounds like Kagami showed a reasonable difference there.

As for sticking to Mulch, I didn't buy this as scummy before, but now I'm less sure. My own thoughts on Mulch have changed alot rapidly so the rigidity does seem a bit off.

I've asked people to engage me on what I thought was something townish about Kagami but nobody has so I'm probably just going to trust my effort over people's kneejerk gut reactions to their posts.

I thought it obvious enough from my previous post on Kagami, but I agree with your comment that he looked like he was trying to sort Kmd.

[Patrick]

Kmd's last post feels protown. Now he can come after me as well =p

[Patrick]

feel free to ignore this, but: would it be possible to use the quote buttons so you have page links in your quotes? i already find quote-walls difficult to read but without post-links for context i really can't parse them at all.

Test run achieved. Will try to remember, but it took me longer than normal.

[Patrick]

Before I was just copy pasting whatever text I wanted and clicking the "quote" tag to turn it into a quote. In my post directly before this one, I did what you asked but took about 3 previews to get it right.

[Patrick]

The number of people hopping on because "lolPoE" and "shrug I don't townread him" is kind of concerning and feels kind of weak given that this is Team Mafia and I've been kind of expecting town to be tryharding here?

I agree with this and especially in regards to implosion's last. I guess the implication is that feeling incrementally better about Mulch makes a Kagami vote look better, but it doesn't feel great.

[Patrick]

Spiffeh is a better lynch than Mulch or Kagami. I don't feel he's trying to figure this game out as a townie.

Ginggie looks worse to me in the last few and chara better. Gut impressions at this point. Unsure about implosion, his thing on Kagami isn't exactly full of holes but I agree with Eddie Kane's comment on it. I feel like I've made posts like that before as scum to try and justify a switch.

[Patrick]

I just don't feel like you're genuinely trying to solve the game. You accuse Mulch of trying to keep his options open which feels like bullshit because he's practically cleared everyone and is seemingly struggling to name 3 people who could be scum, and is working backwards to try and think about who the least town is instead. Presumably if he wanted to keep you in his lynchpool he could have just not pointed out something in your play that sounded town, seems like an easier way to do it than say what he did then come back to you. Townies do change their minds frequently and that's what I feel you're trying to exploit in that post.

I was going to say it was odd to me that you didn't mention Toranaga who was high on your list, but pedit.

Spiffeh is a better lynch

stopped reading

Well, why did you stop reading? Last I checked I'm definitely in your pool of possible scum and I'm currently pushing you over two wagons that you're claiming to scumread, so I'd expect something more than a pithy comment.

[Patrick]

You accuse Mulch of trying to keep his options open which feels like bullshit because he's practically cleared everyone and is seemingly struggling to name 3 people who could be scum, and is working backwards to try and think about who the least town is instead.

I made the "keeping options open" comment before reading the posts where he is struggling to find scum reads. Everything else stands.

Really? You quoted him saying "flailing" so let's see the post that came from?

Eddie is obvious town. Patrick's self meta post makes him obvious town. Toranaga is obvious town. Implosion is beyond obvious town.

Those are just the obvious towns.

Ginnigie radiates townyness. Ari and Chara would never pick scum. Cabd has a town-confirmed claim, and Firebringer a near town-confirmed claim. Cheetory radiates town.

Kmd and Unah are town enough by play and meta respectively.

What's left are Spiffeh and Kagami.

And as a bonus, Kagami has been scummy. Spiffeh with his last reads list kind of looks like flailing too.

He's cleared most players here already, so you must have seen this.

Last post before that in his iso:

The only two people in the game I am not townreading right now are Spiffeh and Kagami. The odds of one of them not being scum is astronomically low. Especially because my speciality are townreads.

I suck at scumreads. When I have a PoE, I often choose the wrong one. But I'll be damned if someone says that I don't know how to identify town.

Am I wrong on one?

Probably. I HAVE to be, even if Spiffeh and Kagami are both scum.

But as of right now, those are the only two votes that I am considering. Unless someone manages to hit the one scum that is hiding in the towns.

Had you read this when you suggested he was trying to keep his options open?

PS: Apologies for the format but I do want people to read the quotes rather than just linking to the posts and nothing else. Don't think Spiffeh's thought process rings true here.

[Patrick]

Do you think Spiffeh looks scummy on the last page? I think his approach to Mulch there might be the scummiest thing I've seen so far in the game.

What made that pairing come to mind then? Just Spiffeh backing off Kagami or?

[Patrick]

Not a big fan on Unabombah using chara's readlist as an indirect way to give his own. Would prefer to see one from Unabombah with at least some reasoning.

[Patrick]

Why is it scummy specifically? Pitch me it.

I haven't read every recent Mulch post in full, especially his back and forth with Eddie, but I feel like I've had a pretty good idea where he's at in terms of reads / worldview. If he's town, he's in a position where he has townreads on everyone but Kagami and Spiffeh. I've found it pretty genuine; thought his read on my meta pretty genuine because I think scum would love that to stay on the quiet, thought his doubts on Kagami seemed p genuine, thought his calling Spiffeh town then returning to him seemed pretty genuine. I don't expect all town to share my point of view, but I feel like there's a fair bit of content in there to go alongside the spam, and that most people would go through quite a lot of doubt in reading him.

Spiffeh's posts on Mulch last page don't look like trying to figure him out at all. He brought up a couple of boring points that have surely been said 10 times already and probably could be said about Mulch in most games he plays, and I don't think hammering on Mulch's Spiffeh change of heart looked genuine. I realise he's asking Mulch a question there, but the tone of it was already one of painting Mulch negatively for it.

And like I said, that point doesn't make a great deal of sense to me: if Mulch scum was trying to keep options open on lynching Spiffeh, he didn't need to call Spiffeh town at all. The post where he did looked like a gut reaction and was something I shared to a lesser extent (Spiffeh going after Toranaga was an unpopular target, and might suggest Spiffeh isn't scum).

Also think Spiffeh's dismissive response to me was slightly scummy, but that's not something I can make a good argument for.

[Patrick]

Or maybe all the things I said about Mulch are how I actually feel

That's the other option, yes.

[Patrick]

Patrick, katsuki says you've clearly senile and should just trust us on mulch-scum.

I appreciate Katsuki chiming in with this.

If forced to pick between you and Mulch (replacement), I'd probably vote for Mulch, but am not really comfortable with the idea that that one of you has to be scum, which seems to be gaining a fair bit of support. What's your current read on Spiffeh?

[Patrick]

Like for example this:

Reads rn

Town
Eddie Cane, Mulch, Chara
Spiffeh, Toranaga, Ginngie
Kmd43

Null

Patrick, implosion, Unabomeh
Scum lean
Aristophanes, Cabd
Scum
Cheetory, Kagami

Combined with this:

Do you agree if Kagami is town then Mulch slot is scum?

Yeah I said that the other day

Makes very little sense to me. It implies a level of certainty in Kagami being scum that I don't see how someone could have on day 1, such that a Kagami town-flip would bring Mulch right down to the bottom of the list, despite being a current strong town-read. It's not the only example, I think both Ginggie and Eddie have said that there is 1 scum among Kagami/Mulch, maybe someone else has as well. Why is that so likely to be true?

[Patrick]

No effort win??

[Patrick]

Thought it was obvious what I was saying, but not to worry.

[Patrick]

Well. Cabd is a bit hard to place until we get a report on the Friendly Neighbour thing - if he isn't one I can easily imagine him being scum. Otherwise both Aris and Unabombah seem like decent bets. My comment was more lazily hoping for an easy scumlynch today without firing up the brain at all, but I agree with waiting a bit on that.

[Patrick]

Mulch/Aris/Cabd?

I can just picture the private topic if this is the scumteam though, lol.

[Patrick]

Gut reaction was that Firebringer really did think Assemble was going to be a mislynch. It's not exactly hard to fake, but is still my read on it. Doesn't have a lot of other protown cred.

[Patrick]

Kagami it’s working no one’s suspecting us after bussing Mulch

I am definitely buying Kagami as town, it's true.

[Patrick]

Vote: cabd

. Want a clear unambiguous statement on what he's claiming, not another day of skating by with something that could be retracted or changed later. If he's a confirmable town role I want that information now.

I think some level of "I want to win" vs "I do not like this person" would be pulling at the way Mulch was pushing Cabd. Probably don't have time to do that until tomorrow though.

Vanity theory is some falling out in the PT, leading to cabd trolling around in this game and the obvious hostility between them in this thread. More realistic I think is that the hostility is just the two of them not liking each other.

Definitely need a claim from Unabombah.

[Patrick]

People I think are town: Cheetory, Eddie Cane, Kagami, implosion.

Remaining players: cabd, Firebringer, Una, Aristophanes, Spiffeh, chara, Ginggie, Toranaga, Kmd439034506043456

If the remaining scum are within (Unabombah, cabd, Aris) this should be pretty straightforward. A few other thoughts:

Based on memory I thought Ginngie was far more against Mulch than she actually was. Took quite a few pops at him but always gave him as town in read lists, also pushed Kagami wagon over Mulch until hammering when Assemble was clearly getting lynched. Sketchy, but a good number of people claiming meta-town reads. Drinking kool-aid on that one for now, but I don't think her actions in this thread look that good.

Assemble scum-lynch took the edge off my Spiffeh suspicions, who I suspected might be trying to exploit bad / messy play from Mulch. His vote came at a time where as scum he might have preferred to vote Kagami instead, putting the votes at 5-3 instead of tied at 4-4. I agree with whoever said earlier that scum wouldn't be that keen to bus with a 12:3 ratio - also minor note is that if cabd is town, the Mafia roleblocker could have blocked him to prevent any possible use of a Friendly Neighbour. So I'd imagine the mafia would have quite liked to preserve that role at least for a day. I'm not putting it beyond possible bussing, mainly because I still don't like aspects of Spiffeh's play.

Pedit: saw cabd's claim. Have a tough time seeing cabd being a scum nightkill after how day 1 went. I suggest letting Eddie say whatever he wanted to but I'm happy lynching cabd after that claim.

[Patrick]

Was a bit doubtful it was that simple, but the claim is really hard for me to believe.

[Patrick]

Based on memory I thought Ginngie was far more against Mulch than she actually was. Took quite a few pops at him but always gave him as town in read lists, also pushed Kagami wagon over Mulch until hammering when Assemble was clearly getting lynched. Sketchy, but a good number of people claiming meta-town reads. Drinking kool-aid on that one for now, but I don't think her actions in this thread look that good.

one to bitch when I did vote Mulch on policy you voted me >_>

Don't think that really changes any of what I said. I don't exactly scumread you but I see you as probably the biggest case of someone widely trusted who I don't think is clearly town. If we do win easily by lynching in the obvious pool, then great, but I don't want to just assume this game is solved.

I like what I'm seeing out of Firebringer, and I don't think Unabombah needs to claim anything more than he has at this point.

[Patrick]

That was horrific if you're actually town. I didn't even get to check in on day 3.

Only have a few minutes before work, so could we please hold off doing anything stupid until this evening, that would be great.

I'm not sure why lynching Ginggie would be a policy lynch given that she's actually probably scum, and looked off even before claiming a false result on Toranaga. Preemptive fuck off to anyone implying I'm scum fishing for easy lynches or w/e.

Beyond that I reviewed and find implosion and Spiffeh to be town, but not sure I trust Chara. Chara, why immediately assuming it's a town fakeclaim? Is that another thing that's considered normal in the meta?

[Patrick]

Like question tho

I've mainly been lazy regarding the Patrick slot

One thing is that like, he makes a lot of words

and I don't truly read them.

If you're town, you could alternatively read the posts of those who've explained a townread on me.

[Patrick]

Feel pretty ridiculously unmotivated to do anything if that was really a town fakeclaim. Probhably a good thing I have to go to work.

[Patrick]

It would be better if work was busy at all <.<

FWIW, on pride alone I don't want Ginggie anywhere near an endgame. I refuse to lose to scum who fakeclaims guilty on a townie then just says lol sorry the next day.

I do actually genuinely think she's the most likely to be scum as well, all I see if a player who's coasted through the game, indirectly defended Mulch via pushing Kagami, fakeclaimed a guilty and come in today with wishy washy posts implying suspicion of at least 3 players. I'm a bit puzzled on the scum motive for doing this, overnight discussing with my team I said she probably just wanted to go out with a bang out of disgust for how the scum team are doing, but she is at least wriggling today. Knowing that mastina is on that team sort of makes me think it was a gambit? I don't see any sense in it as a town play, if there was such a strong case for lynching Tor, I don't know why she wouldn't at least try to make it instead of just faking a result. Not as though everyone thought Toranaga was town.

I would like someone who thinks Ginngie is town to at least try to make that case, that's not rhetoric, I want to know what the thought process is. I don't buy the notion that she's town because scum wouldn't dare to fake a guilty.

I'll probably spend all afternoon thinking about this game, so I'll have a think on the massclaim and other suspicions being put around.

[Patrick]

If there was anyone in this game i actually thought would vote me today

There's still plenty of time

[Patrick]

Ginngie, if you're town, do some legwork and find the scumbag. Preferably in more depth that what you did at the start of the day.

I feel like it should be your Golden Egg

Yet it feels like you’re still wading your foot in the water?

When thinking slightly more clearly, I'll decide who or what I vote. I am in fact capable of changing my mind, and even of thinking more than one thing at once.

[Patrick]

He actually seems pretty town though?

[Patrick]

That's a new misspelling of my name, appreciate you taking it for a spin.

Tbh I'm not a huge fan of the post quoted by Firebringer either. On some level it blows my mind that some people were talking about what would happen if Toranaga flipped town and Ginngie were also to flip town, but he wasn't the only one, so.

[Patrick]

If it isn't Ginngie, there's not actually a lot of people I buy as scum. Chara and Firebringer I guess are possible? I liked both Firebringers posting on day 2 and his position on Assemble flipping town at the end of day 1, but I'm not confident enough on that to stick my neck out. Unabombah I think is probably town and at the very least a silly lynch today, and I'm leaning towards thinking a massclaim should happen tomorrow rather than today.

[Patrick]

I disagree with Kmd on pretty much everything of relevance this game, but think he's town.

[Patrick]

VOTE: Ginngie

[Patrick]

i went to ISO Patrick for why he's town, but this post does bother me.
why do you think it's wrong town?

It's tone, I think. I thought they sounded genuine when expressing doubts about implosion on day 1, and it wasn't far away from my thoughts at the time. Their stances have been wrong, but I think the strength/reasons behind defending Mulch seem misguided not scummy, and the cabd defence would be so pointless to try as scum that I don't know why they'd even bother, especially citing mathdino's reasons to call cabd possible town as well. If they were trying to show disagreement between KMD/rest of team, I'd expect maybe Kmd town-reading cabd and mathdino "correcting" them and calling cabd scum - putting on a show of both defending cabd seems very pointless as scum. I guess they could do it, since there's been no real backlash, I just think it's a position scum would be less likely to fake, especially after being "wrong" on day 1.

If Ginngie is town, I actually do think the "Ginngie is obvtown" position might be the one taken by scum, though it's pretty consistent with what I've seen of Kmd's play. For example I read a game of theirs where they ran up a townie on day 1, and when they claimed VT, kMD backed off them immediately due to thinking scum wouldn't make that claim on day 1. Kmd got a fair bit of flak for that position, but it seemed right to me. I think their strand of reasoning on Ginngie here is consistent, I just don't agree with it.

I'd look at Kmd before any of Cheet/Spiff/implosion, not sure where I'd rate them in comparison to Ari. But I do think they're likely to be town. Why does it bother you that I read Kmd as town?

[Patrick]

Forgot to mention, I think a loss of confidence from Kmd coming into today is pretty natural if they think they're having an off game.

[Patrick]

What point are you trying to make, Una?

[Patrick]

Wouldn't they just discuss it in the scum PT? Why breadcrumb it in thread?

[Patrick]

Eh, I see what you're saying. Doubt it means anything though. I don't think that kind of a claim would be made any more convincing by pointing to a crumb the day before.

[Patrick]

I just reread cabd's iso, and that's not as crazy as I first thought. Unsure where to really take it from there though, lol. I do think if Unabombah is scum he's probably going to bomb in the massclaim.

[Patrick]

pedit: if Una doesn't have a claim that warrants his behaviour, he's done

This is true, but I much preferred to use the word bomb.

[Patrick]

Ginngie - I really dislike that she hasn't been challenging anyone on their Patrick townreads in spite of her having come into today with a hankering to lynch him. I disagree that Ginngie was being widely townread before the claim, so I don't really see why there isn't any kind of incentive to, as scum, in a position where no town PRs are dead, do something that gets you a lynch that might otherwise be difficult, something that completely fucks up the entire tone of the game from "fuck you scum you're getting stomped" to "fuck this game" from town's POV and generates a shit-ton of WiFoM as to why scum would do something that stupid. Biggest hesitation is that this is like next level melodrama that I think would be hard for scum to fake, but if Ginngie is still coasting by on this self-pity shit in a day or two then I think it's more likely a scum gambit than not

I like Cheet's idea of providing a top 3, but I'm struggling because I feel like Ginngie is the only player I have a net scumread on. Let's see where it goes anyway.

One thing I want to say about the notion that she wouldn't fakeclaim as scum, is that scum-Ginngie was in a really really bad position going into day 3. Basically anyone as scum would be, unless it's someone everyone has completely fallen for, and even then the win would not be trivial. I agree that Ginngie probably wasn't getting lynched on day 3, but I think her chances of making it to the end would be extremely slim bordering on none. When your starting position is terrible, making a high risk / potential high reward play becomes more appealing, and in Team Mafia there are 5 heads who can cook up something like that. Playing reasonably or just lurking a bit was not a strategy that would win the game from day 3.

The only decent point I thinks been brought up is that if it is a gambit, the tone / ATE side of it has been played quite well. But since in the last Team Mafia I had to fight extremely hard to lynch ETL-scum, who basically suckered people by using a lot of the same techniques to try and cover up poor scumhunting and arguments, I'm not convinced Ginngie is town just because she sounds indignant.

Also just kinda think she's shading a banana boatload of people today with very little depth. 3338 implies suspicion of both me and Kmd with no commitment or specifics, 3336 kind of attacks implosion for expressing a reasonable sentiment, then she votes me for not voting her immediately, then Firebringer for not having any legit pushes, then Spiff suspicion (maybe for lurking, don't know), then Unabombah (which I do agree his post is weird). It's a very very wide net and I'm not convinced she's actually trying to sort these players.

This:

Una a lot of us know I'm town

I will understand right before M/LyLo but nothing sooner

If you don't actually have scumreads and are pushing what is essentially policy then that looks really bad

Contradicts the earlier statement that she should be lynched today or left alone for the rest of the game in 3398, but what I really want to say here is that I'm pretty scared about leaving Ginggie around until the day before lylo. That gives ample opportunity to shape the town in such a way that Ginngie supporters outnumber the people who want Ginngie lynched, and I don't trust remaining town to actually go through with it. I want it to happen today.

Since I said I'd do the exercise, two people I'd look at if Ginngie is town would be Firebringer and Chara.

Firebringer I find pretty impenetrable tone-wise, and my read has defaulted to neutral almost every time I've looked at his posts this game. I thought the hopelessly late insistence that Assemble was going to flip town was a bit of a town tell for Firebringer because scum usually try to manufacture something to get on the wagon late, and Assemble's very sloppy posts would have given that opportunity. His team thoughts on day 2 looked decent to me, but I think if he is a competent scum player they wouldn't have been that hard to produce. Good luck to implosion if he intends to produce a compelling case for scumship here, because I don't see one, lol. It's more just an absence of stuff that reads as strongly town. I think his posts are more fakeable than most.

Chara I almost feel bad for having here, they seem like a very pleasant poster and bring up a decent number of points over the course of the game, I'm just not sure that they're town. Their points against Kmd are easy ones to make, but I guess sometimes the obvious points can be right. One point I don't like as I read through is this one:

finally, a petty point, but: in Mathdino's own words, the alignment of Kmd-slot can be determined by accuracy of reads. i'd kind of love to call him on it.

Far as I remember, mathdino did call Mulch correctly in the Transcend v Mulch argument, and had Transcend as obvtown, an argument that you assessed the opposite way. You were also on Kagami in the Kagami v Mulch race, and you weren't even that strong on cabd, so I don't get the tone of this quote at all. I assume you're being critical of mathdino's slightly ridiculous position on cabd, but I wouldn't mind hearing from you what you think the scum motivation was. I don't think Kmd slot as scum would think they could preserve cabd's life, and beyond that I don't see a lot of point.

I do get a pretty good feel from skimming through Chara's ISO, I thought Cheetory's point about consistency was silly before, as I don't view it as a protown sign, but I can kind of see what he's getting at. As I read this, I wonder if Aris should be in this spot instead, even though I think there are problems with that theory as well.

Have to cut this off and go to bed, but I'd mainly like it if people who are on the train of Ginngie would never risk this as scum could read what I say above and tell me why that couldn't possibly have happened. If someone has some specific request for me to do tomorrow let me know and I'll do it, I think we're at a point where that kind of thing is useful.

[Patrick]

Ari

, why so generally active on site but not here?

[Patrick]

Skimming the last few pages makes me think Chara is town. Sometimes skimming is the best way to get reads.

[Patrick]

Eh. I'm not sure it was ideal, but I think we're too far down the rabbit hole to just stop now. And I can't deny I'd love some information.

I'd prefer Kmd and Ginngie to be claiming after Una, not too bothered beyond that.

[Patrick]

You hate the massclaim or you want it done faster?

[Patrick]

Quickly checking in. I don't really see the appeal of stopping part way through the massclaim now we're here. If scum has claimed already, all we've done is drastically narrowed down their hunt for poweroles, without us gaining the information we were looking for when we initiated this. In the unlikely event that scum is in the remaining 4 players, we've narrowed it down even more and not even forced them to commit to anything.

Willing to listen to how I'm missing something, but kinda feel like we're getting the worst of both worlds.

[Patrick]

OK. I think if we were going to have just an investigative role claiming and nobody else, that should have happened before half the game claimed VT. I don't want to stop short now we're this far, so I'm just going to claim, I'm also a VT.

Apologies that I'm kinda making the decision for us, but I don't like the suggested refinement, and I really really really would like some information to go off. We must have SOMETHING useful in the setup, even in a 12:3 ratio.

[Patrick]

wut

[Patrick]

I think Chara is probably an unightkillable investigative role.

[Patrick]

I used to talk a lot with Ether about balance, and this isn't what I expected at all. I'm mainly hoping Chara claims something that suddenly causes everything to make sense, but I don't know what that is.

[Patrick]

I think that's the punchline, yep

[Patrick]

anyone have any reason why Aristophanes isn't scum that isn't just him being unlikely to take it

In my punchline above, he's the one who's flipping scum today. I've got it all worked out.

[Patrick]

Mad props to Cheet for passing the time by scumhunting.

Ari, it's ok to confess at this point. Mulch and cabd let you down, people will understand.

[Patrick]

There is no chance at all that Ether makes it a hidden mountainous setup where town has an even worse ratio than is normal.

[Patrick]

Ari, you can say your team made you do it. It's not like you chose this!

[Patrick]

Patrick, I am not scum. Lemme read up and see what I can do before stinging me up, eh?What happened to the townlean from before?

Partly things posted since then, partly I'm playing along, partly something I don't want to go into just yet.

[Patrick]

I want my money back.

Yuck

[Patrick]

Chara/Ginngie scumteam, game solved.

[Patrick]

I want to give Cheet's thoughts on Ari some weight because he apparently knows him so well, and Ari seems like the kind of player that's very readable if you know him. Looking at his ISO in a scum game and a town one, I didn't get a very clear impression at all of the differences, and neither seemed especially similar to here. In the scum game I actually felt like his posts were a bit MORE game related and focussed, and lower in number, with a lower number of emoticons (Blessed Mafia). In camn's town game he posted a lot more than here or the Werewolf game, with a decent mixture of content and banter. I can't get a good feel for tone at all, and am probably looking at entirely the wrong things.

Looking at his stuff this game, some of his day 3 posts really do suggest he thinks the game is over: 3206 3306 3316 Dunno if he posts those as scum. Cheet mentioned that he himself would lurk out this period as scum, and if what he's saying about Ari's scumgame is correct, wouldn't Ari just lurk this out as scum?

2988 looks so town in some ways, and yet it bothers me how different this post feels to everything else he's posted.

I liked 3424 at the time, and still do. After that, meh.

Ari:

Can you talk about your Chara read a bit? It doesn't have to be something huge, but I feel like you've brought them up a few times even as far back as day 1, but never really talked about it.

Cheetory made a pretty strong case, but looking at Ari's posts was less conclusive than I thought. I could imagine him being scum, but I have to squint a bit and probably ignore what my gut tells me. I still think it's more likely to be Ginngie, but I don't have anything I can add to what I've said before on that. Unabombah melts my brain with some of his posts, but I still think his content is more... attackable rather than scummy?

[Patrick]

Whenever I read a post you make against him I think he's scum <.<

[Patrick]

I just read pages 143-150 and it all looks useless to me. All seemingly town going after town, and Spiffeh getting prodded then going V/LA and supporting a massclaim.

who is scum?

[Patrick]

@Patrick, can you walk me through your implosion townread?

OK. Implosion was actually the first person I looked into after the Mulch lynch, as I was iffy on his Kagami vote. My impression of the way Mulch interacted with implosion on day 1 is that they are not buddies. I want to say that Mulch was buddying up to him but it's not quite that simple, he does berate him and call him a bad player as well - I think Mulch was making a genuine attempt to get implosion to not vote him. I was going to provide examples but holy fuck Mulch's iso is huge and dirty, so I'll just mention a few things: 1605 1688 2001 all refer to a game where implosion was scum, and Mulch says more than once that implosion is totally different here - I think he's more likely to say that if implosion is town; it's just a very easy conclusion for him to come to in that case. I don't think he would take that confident a position if implosion is his buddy.

He calls implosion "beyond obvious town" in 2061, praises his Kagami attack in 2113 in a way that I don't think he does if implosion is scum and which looks like he's really hoping implosion is going to vote Kagami, and more of the same in 2209. I'm aware that Mulch expressed a townread on (I think) the entire playerlist at different points in the game, but I think he was trying to manage/use implosion (oh god, do I get to use the word pocketing here??) and at times he felt frustrated that implosion was making points against him. I think that kind of frustration would be in the PT if they're scum together. I'm not going to do links to every instance of that, but I think it's pretty readable in his posts.

Also imposions posts just seem pretty genuine to me? I feel like he's trying to figure things out, especially today, I feel like he's taking positions he believes in rather than ones that will draw less heat, I think his "fuck, can we just massclaim?" feels genuine. I don't think having a mediocre position on Kagami/Mulch is very damning by itself given that most players alive are guilty of the same, and otherwise he reads as very clean to me (and not in a scum playing well kind of way, in a genuine kind of way).

[Patrick]

Unabombah's last two posts feel protown and I'll be decently impressed if he made them as scum.

[Patrick]

i think it's one of Ari/Kmd.
sort of townreading the rest (implosion, Patrick), and my stance on Ginngie hasn't changed.

You refer to me and implosion as the rest here. Have you written off Cheet, Spiffeh, Firebringer and Una entirely then?

[Patrick]

Unlynchable?

Does anyone else feel that way?

I'm leaning towards Chara being town, but am not as sure as I'd like to be. I do think their point here is fair though; Chara seems pretty widely townread.

Is there something about Chara's trajectory that makes it worse than other people who defended Mulch? I looked back at your post on them and it seems to actually be the cabd read you dislike, which seems a super lightweight reason.

[Patrick]

Tone today seems more townish, and a read of a recent towngame and recent scumgame left me thinking they sound more like the towngame here. I don't think their scumgame is as weak as they've claimed it is, but plenty of people downplay that. It's a read I'd revisit before certain others, but I'm happy enough with it right now.

cabd I think was a reasonable player to table on day 1 and come back to on day 2, and a sharp rise in suspicion day 2 is normal following the bulletproof claim. I guess I just don't see how anyone's behaviour around him could lead to a significant scumread when he was pretty clearly going to be lynched after he claimed on day 2.

[Patrick]

it just makes sense and he actually did go look into my meta, not just do a bad skim.

He definitely was just skimming I'm afraid. Maybe it was a good skim though

I also feel myself just hoping it's Aristophanes. I feel better about Kmd and Chara but that might be because they're the people I interacted with.

[Patrick]

UNVOTE: VOTE: Aristophanes

I still think Ginngie could be scum, but nobody seems interested in that today. I won't be joining a Spiffeh or implosion wagon, I believe the 2018 lingo for that is tvt.

VOTE: Implosion
I want this.
Him still pushing Spiff without having responded to me pulling apart his dive on Spiff is terrible.

I'm glad you picked up on your own hypocricy here FWIW, I don't think dismissing the opinions of others is indicative of much, it seems like fairly common practice.

[Patrick]

Good evening everyone.

[Patrick]

=l

[Patrick]

Good morning everyone.

[Patrick]

My home internet went down at the worst possible moment, and still isn't back up. I'm here at my place of work in the middle of the night because I love you all.

What we need to do today is massclaim, with me going last. I want to make it very clear that if you are protown, you must not lie in this massclaim. I appreciate people taking the time to think and not throwing votes around.

My internet may or may not be back up when I get home, if not, I'd certainly expect it to be up in the morning. If not, I'll borrow some. I'll hang around for a bit in case anyone has any questions.

[Patrick]

Quick skimmed Chara's posts and Eddie looks to be the most likely night 1 protect. Which isn't helpful if true.

[Patrick]

it's okay chara eddies here to obv town and take care of you

i don't need anyone's help to obvtown, even when i'm wrong. i could take care of you instead. :>

Chara twice mentioned "missing Eddie" on day 4 as well. Dunno how conclusive that is, but I didn't pick up anything on anyone else.

[Patrick]

Above is distractive, we're going to be a lot more concrete than that.

Firebringer please claim plainly. No wiggle room to change it later, thanks in advance.

[Patrick]

We're not no-lynching, we're going to massclaim in the way I've outlined. People scumhunting and making observations is great as well, but throwing votes around is pointless.

Any further no-lynch vote will be taken by me as a scumclaim

, given what I've posted on this page. I don't know whether it needs 4 or 5 votes, but it's not happening.

Firebringer, you still need to claim your role.

[Patrick]

Thanks Cheet.

I should get back home, being here at 2 in the morning is a bit ridiculous

Maybe see you guys soon, maybe tomorrow. I believe Firebringer still needs to claim his role.

[Patrick]

I think my plan is reasonable even if it isn’t completely soundproof

In fairness, we may well go for it after the massclaim, depending on how things shake out. Rushing it isn't beneficial though, please unvote.

You do seem very forgetful. You still haven't claimed!

And now I really have to go.

[Patrick]

he needs to claim in a completely unambiguous, non-cheeky way that gives him no room to squirrel away from anything if he's scum.

Absolutely this.

[Patrick]

I mean, we can run him up if he refuses to claim clearly, but that really shouldn't be needed.

[Patrick]

You can let Firebringer speak for himself instead of trying to help him. I don't think what he's claimed so far is clear at all, and I haven't forgotten that cabd tried to slip by with hints and letting us assume what he was claiming, rather than claiming it outright.

[Patrick]

Firebringer, I know you've been on today. Why are you avoiding this game and avoiding claiming? It should be the simplest thing if you're town.

[Patrick]

I am hiding in the scum pt

This is actually the most believable thing you've said today.

[Patrick]

Happy to skip Firebringers claim in the massclaim if I get the agreement of 4 people that we're lynching him regardless after I've said my piece. I think he's almost certainly the last scum at this point.

Firebringer if you're town, you're actively throwing by playing the way you are, and I don't know why you'd be so flippant and useless after being apparently so certain that Ari was scum. Claim your role clearly in your next post, or my vote goes on you and doesn't move. If my patience dries up later today and you haven't posted, I may well do that anyway. Even if you somehow think that you've clearly claimed already, at least 3 other people in the game disagree.

[Patrick]

what happened to me dude

Mainly that Firebringer looks like kind of obvscum today.

[Patrick]

I think town Firebringer claims instantly. Scum Firebringer is afraid of what my role may be, and doesn't know what the right claim is, so stalls for time and hopes I lose patience and reveal, so he can then tailor his claim accordingly.

43 words... I guess 30 isn't many at all.

[Patrick]

And no, I don't think "chocolate flavoured scum" and "Chocolate aint plain yo" amounts to a clear roleclaim at all. That can be made into pretty much anything later.

[Patrick]

I'll take it as a VT claim, and assume you're lying if you try to change it later.

Obviously, yesterdays massclaim wasn't entirely truthful, so pointing to a claim yesterday as if it's obvious is kind of dumb.

[Patrick]

No need for Spiffeh's claim, as I already know what his role is.

I'm a town Neapolitan, and investigate to find out whether or not someone is a Vanilla Townie. My results are:

Night 1: implosion = Vanilla
Night 2: Spiffeh = Vanilla
Night 3: Chara = non Vanilla
Night 4: Kmd = Vanilla

Results were breadcrumbed pretty heavily yesterday in case of my death. That means the last scum is within these 4 players (in order of suspicion):

Firebringer
Ginngie
Unabombah
Cheetory

I wasn't expecting a doctor in the setup at all, as it seems to make the game into potentially a boring follow the cop type finish, while leaving the town almost no power if the Neapolitan gets picked off early. But I'm thinking scum were informed we have a Doctor, and given the 1 shot roleblocker to help deal with the Neapolitan if they revealed early.

We have a forced win unless the last scum is a Strongman. I think that's pretty unlikely with 2 scum poweroles already and 1-2 town protectives roles, but I'm trying to cover the worst case. I'd be happy staking the game on Cheet being town, but hopefully we won't have to. I'll lay out that forced win if needed, but it involves a no-lynch today or tomorrow to get me an extra result, or force scum to kill me, since I'm technically not confirmed. Obviously Una protects me.

I needed to lock scum into a claim before revealing, and tried to spook scum into claiming something like Miller or a weak powerole, out of fear for what I might have. In this case I think Firebringer made himself pretty obvscum by his reactions.

Let me know if I'm missing anything setup wise that could change any of this.

VOTE: Firebringer

[Patrick]

Nope, my role isn't a Vanilla Cop, Cheet. I find out whether they are a Vanilla Townie or not. That simple.

[Patrick]

How likely is a Strongman? I think unlikely, but it's a non-zero chance, otherwise I'd have just claimed immediately.

[Patrick]

It’s pretty obvious I wasn’t lying.

Both Chara and I lied yesterday in the massclaim, so I don't know why you'd be magically telling the truth, or why you felt the need to dick about instead of clarifying. I think town claims straight away because they have nothing to hide and want to find out what I know, whereas scum would be a lot more guarded.

[Patrick]

BTW

that is ungodly how all your invests by day 5 are alive besides the doc

like holy shit

I was trying to investigate players who weren't likely nightkills and who weren't likely to come under massive pressure straight away. It was an interesting role to play. I was kind of going for innocents not guilties.

Apologies to Ari for pushing his lynch through quickly. I wasn't especially convinced of your guilt, but both Spiff and implosion were getting serious pressure, and I wasn't looking forward to having to argue for why Spiffeh was a townie who'd caught scum day 1 then decided to lurk for the rest of the game. I almost thought my implosion defence gave me away, but apparently I got away with it.

[Patrick]

The Chara result was pretty annoying. I had to give the most cautious wishy washy town read on them yesterday in case I died.

[Patrick]

I won't be joining a Spiffeh or implosion wagon, I believe the 2018 lingo for that is tvt.

I hope Cheet enjoyed this.

[Patrick]

I was hoping to get Chara's claim then decide whether or not my reveal would break the game. Then they claimed VT >.<

[Patrick]

I probably should have picked this up tbh. I wasn't really expecting you to be a PR.

I'm glad. It probably all looks so much more obvious on my end, but I was genuinely afraid of the kill last night. Especially if scum were informed my role existed.

[Patrick]

I did notice that Patrick went from going really hard after me to calling me town but I thought that was just because Mulch flipped scum

Yeah I was going to argue you'd never have bussed Mulch given that cabd was already a dead man walking.

[Patrick]

I was a bit more worried about Strongman, but everyone seems to think it's not plausible, and my balance is pretty out of touch, so yeah.

[Patrick]

I really can't imagine Ether giving scum two ways to deal with the already limited power set though.

This is my hope, yeah.

[Patrick]

That was my main hope, yeah.

[Patrick]

Fire, what was cabd's information? Doctor or Neapolitan?

[Patrick]

Probably a bit townsided, but the second roleblocker is interesting. That's some room to screw with follow the cop plans.

[Patrick]

If you still had the roleblock, it would have messed up any plans we made and probably got Una lynched.

[Patrick]

Two scum 1-shot roleblockers and an informed goon vs Doc/Back-up Doc and Neapolitan wouldn't pass balancing in a 13 player game so.

In which direction? Would that be considered too much scum power?

[Patrick]

I did wonder last night whether Chara and Ginngie might be masons. Avoided investigating Ginngie for that reason. Other theory was Chara was some weak power that had somehow cleared Ginngie or Firebringer.

[Patrick]

Wonder if we'd have won it with me as a VT in the 8 player situation. implosion, Spiffeh, Firebringer the lynches maybe, but a lot of mafia still to be played. If I'd been killed last night I think my crumbed clears of implosion and Spiffeh would have been enough. This way saved Cheet from aging 5 years though.

[Patrick]

also yeah shout out to keely for keeping me occasionally sane in this game

I thought you were looking more and more town as the game went on, genuinely. Hard to tell how much the bias of knowing affected that. I don't think I'd have been on you.

[Patrick]

I resolved I wouldn't lurk and let the role affect my activity. But I definitely avoided posting some things days 2-4 that I would have otherwise.

On day 2 I almost said that I knew what Una was crumbing, but thought scum might interpret that as me being the doctor, or something.

[Patrick]

See you all later