Open 708: Pick Your Poison - Game Over

[Thor665]

Vote Count 1.5

Transcend

(4): CultOfAthena, Klick, mozamis, Maxous

Flubbernugget

(2):

texcat

,

Thor665

Beefster

(1):

RadiantCowbells

mozamis

(1): Beefster

texcat

(1):

Flubbernugget

Not Voting

(4):

Moneybags, Transcend

,

HeWhoSwims

, Errantparabola

/quote]
@CoA - if EP is scum and you and Max are town than it means we got Transcend to 5 votes (RC was on there as well but unvoted shortly before this votecount) with zero scum support for a town wagon.

How likely do you think that is?
Because I find it very unlikely, and want to flip you and Max in either order, and kick myself if it's Klick or Moz.

[Thor665]

How likely is it? Unless you're talking about pure statistical likelihood, is there some specific reason to disbelieve it? All-town wagons happen all the time. My reads independent of the votecount lead me to the conclusion that EP is scum, so I don't see why that conclusion also leading to the conclusion of something being an all-town wagon is cause to reconsider.

Well, first off, you're kind of playing word-snarl there; yes, I'm asking about the statistical liklihood, which you appear to understand but then don't address by tossing out the (unsupported) idea that 'all town wagons happen all the time'.

I will counter with this; no they don't, unless you're talking very small wagons.

All town lynch or near lynch wagons in early game are actually rather rare and uncommon. Therefore, when you have 5 votes on a confirmed town early game it is *very* valid to question whether scum would or would not be on the wagon - especially when all other evidence we have shows scum in this game were very willing (indeed eager) to be on wagons on town.

I would think the question of why scum would avoid the Transcend wagon would at least get you to assess EP's reads in relation to that wagon to discuss why you think he'd avoid it.

I mean, I'm willing to consider scum!Maxous given that my EP case doesn't appear to be going anywhere. I'm not really confident in it but I don't think town loses this game either way.

Okay, so why don't you do that?
Let's discuss your EP and Max read right now.
That's what I'm trying to do with you.

[Thor665]

@ Cult - your last few posts sum it up: no scum hunitng, you're not trying to get EP lynched (remember him? your supposed "suspect"?). Just defensive survival mode form you.
"Town you" may have made some of those points, but you would have also said "c'mon, lets lynch EP" or something like that.
Cult's scum. Hammer her.

I will offer the counter thought that; she is under reasonably heavy attack, and the only person trying to discuss reads with her is me - so she's actually only avoiding discussing reads with one person, not in general.

Remember when I was on you (and was the only one on you) your entire world was discussing me and my actions towards you.
That is a normal reaction and happens to scum and town players.
If she's scum I rather doubt it's for this reason.

Also, if that bugs you, what's your take away on Max's recent posting?

[Thor665]

I don't see what you're talking about there exactly.
Like, two days ago she voted EP and made a big wall explaining why she thought he was scum.
Isn't that wanting to get someone lynched?

[Thor665]

no follow up questions to Ep. Not engaging with Ep. Shes never really around when it counts.
Her case on EP seemed really contrived to me.
I feel i've done my bit tbh. i think she's scum. i really dont want to get into an argument with you about it. You gotta go with who you think i guess.
Max, EP, Klick -need you guys!

What follow up questions should she be asking?
I agree that she's not engaging with her scum read - I know for a fact that lots of people consider that appropriate town play - are you aware that it's not how CoA plays town? Because if she normally engages - then, yeah, let's speed lynch her. But if she doesn't then it's null.
Flubber's never around when it counts and also isn't engaging anything - he's confirmed town, so...

Since your case on her is that she's not engaging shouldn't you also want to engage with her, me, and everyone?
I think your case is pretty meh and I actually have CoA as one of my top two scumreads right now - so that should say something.

[Thor665]

I don't think it was a question of reason – I don't think EP was even around for that wagon in the first place.

He was absolutely around, he just didn't comment on the wagon at all.

Max is a gut townread to me. If he's scum he's been playing a very nonchalant game for having both of his partners lynched one after the other. More than that, he has some comments in his ISO regarding HWS!scum and tex!scum that really don't seem to come from a partner:

Two questions naturally seem to stem up from this;

1. How is Max 'nonchalant' and EP is 'not nonchalant'? COuld I get a short list of who isn't being nonchalant and a description of how they're being nonchalant? (this feels like bogus reasoning to me so I want to understand it better or be able to showcase your inability to describe it in order to attack you)

2. I note you touting a number of examples of Max listing Tex and HWS as scumreads Day 1 as a reason not to scumread him.
I'll note that, despite these reads, he wasn't ever *voting* either of those slots. He was voting EP. How does that affect/not affect your read of him?

love to hear people thoughts on Klick scum?

I currently spit mockingly on the idea that Klick is scum.

[Thor665]

yes, we all know your upset because i voted you a while ago -try and get over it for gods sake and stop being rude.

Considering the things you're complaining aboutme being 'rude' about are me noting how 'meh' your CoA case was, and now you're touting that CoA is obv. town and that EP needs to be lynched I would think you'd be a bit more mindful of me describing your cases as bad, because I appear to be correct from your current point of view.

I'm sorry that I keep pointing out your cases are bad?

How do you see EP scum working exactly?
He looked like a heavily chosen mislynch option for Tex.

[Thor665]

That leaves CofA, EP, HeWhoSwims in the null, but probably town category.

Just as an argument for both CoA and EP being town.
What are the odds he tosses both his scumbuddies into this pool?

[Thor665]

Leaves at null: ErrantP, texcat, Klick, and Thor, but apparently we need to read Thor as... Thor.

If EP is scum, then *both* of his buddies tossed *both* of their buddies into their initial null pile.
...seems unlikely to me.

[Thor665]

I understand why EP can potentially be a scumspect - but then I ruled him out for reasons I explained.
If you're ruling him back in then you ought to be able to explain *why* you're ruling him back in.
Want to try that, or just keep up a dick measuring contest you're fated to lose?

[Thor665]

@Thor, can I hear more from you on your Max read?

Like what?
I've explained it already and am not hiding deeper/better evidence for a surprise reveal later.

[Thor665]

Well, to both Beef and Flubber I offer these thoughts;

If nothing important is happening, maybe it's because a large number of the players in the game aren't trying to do much.
Maybe if, say, you really want a lynch to go through you should try engaging the people not voting in favor of the lynch to assess and/or dismantle their reads preventing them from hammering.
This would create action and intrigue aplenty.

Or, alternate thought, show up every 48 hours and whine about nothing happening, that may work also.

[Thor665]

If you agree that Athena's core suspicion of you is correct then why do you think she's likely to be scum exactly?

[Thor665]

Also, just because you're the only one selling it - how do I look like scum?
Like, if I look like scum, then like Moz should look like scum too, yeah? Why do I and he doesn't - the logic for clearing one of us is the logic for clearing both of us, no?

[Thor665]

And actually the logic for me is even stronger, because I had the ability to mislynch Moz if I was scum and walked away, and he never got into that position with me.
So that makes your stance even more odd.

[Thor665]

er, yeah. you on the texcat lynch completely slipped my mind. You're with Beef. Sorry.

If you agree that Athena's core suspicion of you is correct then why do you think she's likely to be scum exactly?

??? Athena has expressed many reasons why I'm scum. Furthermore agreeing with her on this does not necessarily mean that she isn't scum? My reasons for that are independent of her case on me

She has expressed many reasons why you're scum.
None of them are actually scummy reasons - in fact, thinking you're scum is something a lot of people are doing.
Your case on her feels very thin to me (everyone's case on her feels very thin, frankly) can you describe why you think it's such a good case?

Are we getting cold feet on the Athena lynch?
She did nothing but double down on EP earlier in the day and now she just pretended to engage with Thor about a read on me because the Errant push has lost steam.
She should of been analysing my play at the start of the day like everyone else.

I can think of multiple people who handwaved you off as town.
Not sure why she's the scummy one of that particular subset.

What's scummy in doubling down on EP but then potentially deciding you might be scum exactly?
If you had the bigger wagon than EP, yeah, I'd get it - but your wagon is only little ol' me - what's her scum plan there exactly? To get off the easier to push wagon onto a harder one with less support?

[Thor665]

so Ep, once again, gets off the mislynch wagon and votes for someone who aint getting lynched. And I'm pretty sure I was his next suspect after Cult in his last big post? So the vote for Max is nonsense.
This guy is scum.
Someone hammer and we win.

That doesn't make any sense as a scumtell.

Because she only doubled on the EP tunnel and didn't even consider anyone else. I don't remember anyone else being so singular. Which at this stage of the game you should be weighing everyone against the dead scum and general reads. That's a blind tunnel at best..but I think it's just scummy.
EP wagon is dying and despite me having only one vote now, it's clear my lynch isn't off the table

I'm down to two and have been fairly singular on you despite claiming CoA as my second biggest read, and you aren't saying boo about me.
Moz has been even more singularly focused on EP.
Also this ignores that town tunnel all the time.
Also it ignores me asking what the heck her scum plan was.
Also it ignores that you *literally* just got done calling her scummy for starting to consider you as scum, and when I asked about that you then changed to she's scum for not considering other options.

You're moving goal posts.
That's scummy.

[Thor665]

@ Thor - your still OMGUSING me and its effecitng your judgement. Very recently, you were scum reading EP. You dont have to like me, you dont have to agree with my case on EP. But you do want to win the game, yeah?
Stop being emotional amnd vote EP for the reasons that you had very recently, and lets win this game.

I very recently had reasons to vote you, lackwit.
Saying 'ooooh, emotions' doesn't actually do anything to affect the *reasons* I've changed my vote.
My "emotions" with you currently are mostly frustration with how you're playing - and I'm desperately attempting to communicate with you and I get 'oooooh, emotions!' as a rebutal to questions.


How about YOU stop playing emotionally and answer what's being asked of you?

And what i said DOES make sense as a scumtell - he was voting for Cult, and inhis last reads list said MOZ was his next choice as scum. And now he moves his vote from Cult to Max? That makes no sense. It's a fabricated read.

Why would he get off Cult if he's scum?
Why would he get off Cult to Max instead of Moz as scum?
It doesn't make sense.

I'll *agree* that I don't see driving town energy there. But that's totally different from it being a scumtell.
You're saying it's a scumtell because...? What? He changed his moind in a shitty fashion?
Beef does that every third post - you're not voting him.
So?

[Thor665]

I *have* talked about you and Moz and everyone else in relation to the flipped scum and wagons.
As for the latter half of that, I legit don't know how you came to that interpretation

The latter half makes a LOT of sense.
Here's our conversation;

Max: CoA is scum because look how easily she swayed off of EP to suspect me suddenly!
Thor: How is that scummy?
Max: Look at how tunneled she is on EP, she needs to consider other reads like town does!
Thor: You just got done claiming that her changing her reads was scummy.
Max: I legit don't know how you came to that interpretation!

Now that you know how I got there, can you explain the double standard and goal post moving you're doing?

[Thor665]

I need to finish this game before Earthbound Mafia starts so that I'm not in too many games...

I hope I never have to play with you again if you're town.

[Thor665]

I need to finish this game before Earthbound Mafia starts so that I'm not in too many games...

I hope I never have to play with you again if you're town.

A little harsh, don't you think? I've just overextended myself a bit is all. I'm sure I'll get better before you have to play with me again. I'm effectively a newbie because I took a 6 year hiatus.

No, I don't think it's harsh.
You're literally saying you want to derp rush this game because you have another game coming up.
You should replace out of this game, or not join the new game if that's the case - derp rushing is insulting to everyone in this game that shares your alignment because you're straight up telling us that we're not worth your time.

I think saying that to someone is pretty harsh, and if you're the type to say that I NEVER want to play with you again until you learn proper game etiquette.

@Thor, can I hear more from you on your Max read?

Like what?
I've explained it already and am not hiding deeper/better evidence for a surprise reveal later.

I suppose I just lost track of your original reasoning for it – I understand that you were looking at the votecounts but I felt like there was something I was missing. Mind repeating the concise version of it?

I already did and we were already in a discussion about it;
viewtopic.php?p=9953605#p9953605
Feel free to pick back up the thread.


@EP - allow me to boil down your glorious and noble stance into how I read it;
"Dear Thor, if I'm scum I'm appealing to emotions and you should ignore me, if I'm town then I'm arguing that everyone is playing very poorly except for you - therefore *you* are the one who should change and come down to the low level of play others are using, like lurking and tunneling, rather than pointing out that we are lurking and tunneling and you should stop trying to encourage scumhunting because...well, it's *hard*"

To that, my response is this;
Feel free to offer a rebuttal or clarification of your stance.
I anticipate not being sold.

[Thor665]

1) At least do me the courtesy of not brushing off the first two questions, then. Or don't, I don't anticipate this discussion being particularly productive, and apparently neither do you.
2) I think it's a little ridiculous that you would call this tunneling or bad play. Both wagons have some plausible sense of going through (except for the one you're on!) and have been discussed by all parties on said wagons. I guess you could call it tunneling. Organized mass tunneling. A wagon, if you will.

1. The first two questions don't apply to me because they're based around a concept of scumreads I have not advanced. So it's not a matter of disrespect for me not to answer them.

2. Tunneling is seeing a scumread to the exclusion of others. I think that does apply to the CoA wagon (and to a lesser extent the EP one) and the number of people tunneling does not actually affect the ability to identify it as tunneling.

I will also note that there have been a handful of people I've asked to explain their reads - and gotten nothing out of in exchange. Which is very supportive of my core claim that bad play is happening. Even a bad logic based wagon should be able to be explained. When the explanation is that I'm being over emotional for not being able to understand the wagon then...well, there's probably an issue with the core wagon.

[Thor665]

Like, let's break down a couple of the people I've asked and their answers;

I asked Mozamis, his answer;
Thor is so emotional in his hatred of Moz that he can't support lynching CoA (even though I just agreed with Thor that Moz's push on EP and Klick was pretty iffy, but *this* time it's due to emotions!)

I asked CoA, her answer;
Dropped the subject entirely and then asked me to restart it at square one because she forgot we had already been discussing it apparently.

I have pointed out that Beef is changing his opinion every three posts.
He hasn't denied this, and it's objectively true - thereby suggesting his work is empty.

You are currently advocating for a wagon, any wagon, even yourself, due to town "strain"
So, if you're town, basically you're giving up on the game, don't care about your wincon, and are pretty near to the line for game throwing, or you're scum. So that's swell.

Klick is a lurksack.
Flubb is a confirmed town lurksack, which is even worse.

So, very sorry if you find me asking for people's reads to be stressful.
I find other things in this game more stressful - such is life.

[Thor665]

What do you mean by not advanced?

I mean your question was prefaced by "anyone who doesn't think the last scum is in EP, CoA, Max answer these two questions"
I've advanced the idea that last scum is CoA or Max.
So why would I answer those questions?

Also, I would say believing the game is almost certainly won for town already and throwing the game are two different things. I dont mind getting lynched because its in the pool of people that will get us there. But whatever.

Anyone claiming the game is almost certainly won is lying to me or to themselves.
We don't know gak.
For all you know I'm aggressive bussing scum - then where's your "win so close we might as well shut off our brains"?

[Thor665]

Here's another hint - to yourself you're confirmed town.
So you SHOULD mind being lynched unless you're trying to help scum's wincon.

[Thor665]

I'm reluctant to hammer Athena because I've town read her most of the game and don't like to vote people I'm unsure of.
I gave up on Flubber helping this game on Day 1.

[Thor665]

Thor, you're more fun than I remember. Maybe because I'm not as completely awful as I used to be?

Maybe?
Hard for me to say - people often cite me as very funny and fun *or* as completely awful and unfun. Wouldn't surprise me if I tend to be more awful to someone the ruder and worse I think they're being, that sounds like me.

Glad you weren't my Moz or Flubber this game

[Thor665]

@Flubber - please blacklist me, I'll do the same for you.