Mini Normal 1985 No Spoilers (END)


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Post Post #2274 (isolation #0) » Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:55 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Main_Page
Search box -> Normal

https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game
Roles which are explicitly Normal for Town only include:
Vanilla Townie, Friendly Neighbor, Innocent Child, Mason,
Miller
, Vigilante, any roles listed as "for any alignment"

Search box -> Miller
https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Miller
For obvious reasons, standard Millers are Town.
Normal Guidelines
A Miller that knows they are a Miller and flips as such is considered Normal on mafiascum.net. A Miller returns a guilty result if investigated by a Cop, "Miller" if investigated by a Role Cop, and "non-Vanilla" to a Vanilla Cop. The Normal variant of Miller specifically only produces a false guilty to a Cop and Seer, so for example, a Gunsmith will see them as having no gun (unless they have a gun for some other reason).

wrt balance in traitor games...
Subject: Srceenplay's Mini Normal Review
mhsmith0 wrote:Last I checked mini normals with traitors were ballpark 50% town win rate

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=29549

some recent ones:

1954 town
PT cop, 2x masons, neighborizer, PT enabler
vs enctyptor, even roleblocker, traitor

1938 scum
JOAT (doc/jk/bg), 2-shot vig, gunsmith
vs neighborizer, JOAT (cop/rolecop), BP traitor

1895 town
neighbor/cop, neighbor, neighbor, fruit vendor, doc
vs odd roleblocker, even roleblocker, traitor

1814 scum
non-consecutive jailer, joat (voeur, bg, neapolitan, neighborizer, motion detector, follower), weak doctor, 2-shot commuter
vs goon, goon, traitor encryptor

1762 town
3-shot jailkeeper, gunsmith, 1-shot vig
vs goon, goon, traitor

etc
Subject: Srceenplay's Mini Normal Review
mhsmith0 wrote:
In post 37, Srceenplay wrote:Gunsmith
Role Cop
Neighbourizer
Miller
6 VT

VS

Roleblocker Traitor
Goon
Encryption
That is definiteli NOT a lot for town.

Like, against the equivalent of a 3 goon team it's probably acceptable
But you have one strong role (gs - which scum can still BS around, and which will falsely clear the traitor and falsely guilty the rolecop), one situationally decent role (role cop can find two scum roles and verify the miller), a miller who's normally NU but can be cleared by rolecop (and GS? i admittedly forget on that one), and a neighborizer, which is completely useless most of the time.

Change gunsmtih to cop and you're probably fine here. Give town something small otherwise (even night doc?) and you're probably fine as well.
I'll explicitly take any and all comments wrt balance since it was my explicit suggestion on balance that was taken. I think in retrospect... balance was about correct. Scum outplayed town, but not massively so, and scum won. A gunsmith here would have been incredibly risky because it sets up a godfather (the traitor) who's completely unkillable by his faction, and can only be caught by the rolecop... and town didn't have enough power to justify that kind of "it probably won't happen, but if it DID happen then it's really bad news" outcome (and as it so happened, anti DID investigate mulch n1, so if he was a gunsmith instead of a cop, then town would have been in enormous trouble just on PR actions).
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #2285 (isolation #1) » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:24 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 2279, Fro99er wrote:Yeah I agree there FL on that part. It’s swingy-ish

I voiced game possibly being over D2 in the first review I did and got laughed out for it, and decided being a part of the NRG wasnt for me. I think we’ll just have to expect games can end D2 in 13p normals here
Part of the problem is that towns are so consistently ineffective you need kind of a ridiculous amount of power to be at all competitive... and sometimes you get setups where the swing is such that, yeah, towns can basically win on d2.

Something like a 3-man scum team with a roleblocker merits a LOT of town power to counter, and something like...

D1 roleblocker lynch
N1 vig shoots a goon, gunsmith checks the other goon, and for jollies let's say there's a doctor and a 1-shot BP as well doing things that don't destroy town

= D2 game over

But you run 100 times
goon, goon, roleblocker
against a town of vig, gunsmith, doctor, 1-shot BP

and you'll see scum win probably 55-60 of them.

As a simple example, my first mini normal was

goon, encryptor, 1-shot strongman
against vig, doc, tracker, 1-shot bp

and scum won it fairly easily (just one of them dead)

It's kind of shitty that towns need THAT much power to be effective... but they do.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #2290 (isolation #2) » Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:36 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

Yeah you can definitely balance around lower scum power, but that's a mod preference sort of thing.

Ironically, scum win rates in 3-goon setups are substantially higher than in basically everything else (as of last time I checked, which was a few months ago iirc), which actually suggests that we collectively do a poor job of giving town the proper amount of power against a 3-goon team, and/or the nature of day play when scum have PR's that they need to keep alive provides additional information to town as things move towards mid game and late game. not quite sure which is the bigger driving force, but I suspect it's a combo of the two.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #2303 (isolation #3) » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:32 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 2295, Antihero wrote:
In post 2285, mhsmith0 wrote:Part of the problem is that towns are so consistently ineffective you need kind of a ridiculous amount of power to be at all competitive...
not really

it's not that town need -ridiculous- power bc they're bad. it's that they need it to balance for scum getting a factional NK, which is crazy powerful even tho no one acknowledges it.
Once you back out the help from PRs, on MS sitewide town lynches at ballpark =rand AT BEST, and I'd actually say it's sub rand. That's consistently bad town play. Theoretically it COULD be good scum play, but by and large scum aren't actually effectively manipulating town and driving mislynches, it's just that townies derp-tunnel each other for dumb reasons, spam the thread with nonsense, and in many cases have literally no clue what kind of behavior is scum-indicative vs town-indicative (not to mention that the replace-out rate in a lot of games is really bad, as "I don't feel like playing this game anymore" becomes a community-accepted reason to replace out; that's more of a "makes it unfun for everyone" rather than a necessarily pro-scum thing, but it overlaps with the lack of commitment and care that causes towns to be fairly consistent garbage).

Part of it is (IMO) consistently mediocre to outright bad IC'ing in the newbie queue, which teaches the next generation of players all sorts of bad habits and bad ideas, and the problem then starts to just reinforce itself.
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Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #2304 (isolation #4) » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:34 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 2302, Flavor Leaf wrote:You were just pushing things that weren’t AI, and it made it easy for me to go against you.
This, by the way, is I think a good lesson in general.

Being pushed for obviously bad/wrong reasons can, in the hands of competent scum, be a blessing rather than a curse. It gives you something to sink your teeth into, and creates a chance to either drive a wagon on the guy pushing you or discredit the guy pushing you, which said choice depending on what is in scum's tactical best interest.
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #2308 (isolation #5) » Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:44 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

quickly eyeballing it not really, other than fixing the color tag.

you could move the last townie to dead because endgamed, but i've seen it either way and it's not actually important.
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #2336 (isolation #6) » Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:00 am

Post by mhsmith0 »

In post 2332, Srceenplay wrote:
In post 2308, mhsmith0 wrote:quickly eyeballing it not really, other than fixing the color tag.

you could move the last townie to dead because endgamed, but i've seen it either way and it's not actually important.
I can’t figure the color tag out.
There is a bad tag somewhere messing it up.
It was also not letting the vote counter come up.
Slapping on a [/color] after Prods = * and before the spoiler section will fix the coloring issue (you can also delete one of the two [/color] tags after Mafia Goon). If you want everything elseto stay orange you need to tweak a bit.
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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Post Post #2343 (isolation #7) » Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:52 pm

Post by mhsmith0 »

btw, while gamma was the townie who mis-hammered the investigative clear in f3, this was i think a collective town failure whereby all townies who were alive at the time that the rolecop announced the miller clear share equal responsibility for that not being a fully understood lock 100% clear by every single townie on the board (and while that would not have guaranteed a town win, at the least it would have improved town's odds). That's something pretty basic about the setup that there simply should not have been any doubt on. when you have multiple heads involved in solving a problem, at least one should have been able to see it, explain it, and make it overwhelmingly clear to everyone else what the score was.

There are lots of things that define site meta for better or worse. "The investigative hard clear can be the game-ending mislynch" is a thing that should not be on that list.
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http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Mhsmith0
Conq: you, sir, are great at being town.
BATMAN: Only jugg was the only one we didn’t scum read at least not me
Quick: There is little to no chance this slot is Power-Wolfing.
SR: I want to give him a day
Life is simply unfair, don't you think?
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