Mini 1990: Terror in the City (Game Over)

[Hopkirk]

I hope flavour isn't important. It's hard to read.
Given 'your mind' counts as a weapon, TPG's four minds are OP.

VOTE: TNE

[Hopkirk]

@Havingfitz: You've only made one other naked RVS vote in your last 20ish games. Do you feel like that's alignment indicative?

[Hopkirk]

Make that once in 2017.

[Hopkirk]

I forgot my umbrella, can I borrow yours?
VOTE: chickadee

You sound like an attorney.
Do you think you'd enjoy being scum?

[Hopkirk]

Brass who are talking to...also how do you know anyone has an umbrella.
Suspicious... are you scum Brass?

I apparently have my umbrella, why don't you?

[Hopkirk]

Am I the only one who read the flavor post?

Brass who are talking to...also how do you know anyone has an umbrella.
Suspicious... are you scum Brass?

I apparently have my umbrella, why don't you?

No.
Strange how citizens have umbrellas and you don't.

[Hopkirk]

Am I the only one who read the flavor post?

Why'd you ask this actually?

[Hopkirk]

Who are you talking to?

[Hopkirk]

@Havingfitz: I agree with Dunn. Fuzzy should be the nightkill here. He's the only one we know for sure is watching for scumslips.

[Hopkirk]

@Havingfitz: I agree with Dunn. Fuzzy should be the nightkill here. He's the only one we know for sure is watching for scumslips.

Why are you telling me this?

Are you're saying you're scum with Dunnstral? Since he hadn't posted yet in this game. You have a PT with him?

VOTE: Hopkirk

I tried but the yellow text hurt my eyes

anyone else here just sitting here waiting for scum to slip

Does that answer your question?

@Havingfitz: You've only made one other naked RVS vote in your last 20ish games. Do you feel like that's alignment indicative?

No.

What was my alignment in the other game?

Town. I'm happy with this response.

[Hopkirk]

Guy jokes about hoping scum slips.
I immediately post something that could have come from a Hopkirk/Havingfitz/Dunnstral scumtopic.

Does that answer your question?

[Hopkirk]

I don't really get how could read that and conclude I was implying me/Dunn were scum without also getting I was implying you were scum. Could you explain your thought process there?

[Hopkirk]

Fair enough.

[Hopkirk]

Does anyone else think it's weird a 4 headed hydra hasn't posted yet?

[/vote] The powerpuff girls [/vote]

[Hopkirk]

That was intended as a vote but eh.
VOTE: Brass

[Hopkirk]

Because a failed vote serves the same purpose of fosing.

[Hopkirk]

Agree with town Fitz.

[Hopkirk]

@TPG-Key: A four-person scum hydra has incentive to coordinate before posting. Based on experience, your town hydra partners posted a lot more while in hydras. I just finished a game where RC/North were a town hydra, and Cheeky was in a town hydra (and it read like Cheeky barely had a hydra QT). Despite RC/North dying n1, the two hydras accounted for over 50% of the posts in a 9 player game. Therefore, not posting much initially is definitely odd in comparison.

[Hopkirk]

My take is Hopkin was joking around...... I guess he could be scum trying to get away with something but doesnt feel like it

Not too sure what to make of Fritz's reaction to this. I need a bit to thnnk it through , if Fritz is going after Hopkin for a mislynch or he is just jumped on something he thought was scummy but prob is not

It's a very explicit joke. Fitz could not turn that into a mislynch unless (he thought) everyone here was completely deaf to tone, context, sarcasm, humor etc. Scum Fitz therefore, would not be using it to try and 'mislynch' someone. Consequently, it sounds legitimate which makes me read it as town.

- Did you not immediately understand it? If so why didn't you comment on it earlier than this? You've had ample opportunity and if you thought there was any chance it wasn't a joke then I'd expect questions.
- What incentives does scum Fitz have to push it (both if he thinks it's a joke, or if he really misinterprets it), and why does he do this?

[Hopkirk]

Quote where I said it makes me town.

All I can see is It's NAI and makes fitz townlean.

[Hopkirk]

Why would I have anyone leaning scum?
I have three people I want to interact with.

Who do you have leaning scum.

- Did you not immediately understand it? If so why didn't you comment on it earlier than this? You've had ample opportunity and if you thought there was any chance it wasn't a joke then I'd expect questions.
- What incentives does scum Fitz have to push it (both if he thinks it's a joke, or if he really misinterprets it), and why does he do this?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: TFL

[Hopkirk]

What do you think about TFL not having any clear scum leans himself?

L2 btw.

[Hopkirk]

@Brassherald: were you aware there were 4 votes on TFL already?

[Hopkirk]

Do you have any scumleans?

[Hopkirk]

Who's bubbles?

No, I'm not saying you'd all lurk as scum. I said you might want to discuss how to approach the game as scum, whereas you'd just post as town. That's what 'incentive to coordinate before posting' means.

Brass feels slightly different.

@Nero: you had three posts just after my joke. What were your immediate thoughts?

[Hopkirk]

What don't you like about it?
It's not a scumread.
It's a meta question based on having just played vs 3 of the 4 heads in town hydras.

[Hopkirk]

Why did you only mention my TPG push if you don't like my TFL push either? Or did you like it? If not, why?

[Hopkirk]

That should be 38%, not over 50% actually, but the meaning doesn't change.

[Hopkirk]

At the time, it was a talking point/question.
It's still not AI.
That doesn't mean it's not worth discussing.

[Hopkirk]

My vote was for his sidestepping my questions. Why is that bad/illegitimate?

[Hopkirk]

@Brass:
I asked since I saw you expressed reluctance to join early wagons in your completed game.
Thus, I like your response/consistency.

[Hopkirk]

@Fitz: That's a good point. Looking at Y's complete game, he gets straight into it when making his first post a similar number of posts in (as town).

@Kop: how do you feel about TFL?

[Hopkirk]

About #8.
Fitz's reaction too.

[Hopkirk]

Oh ewww

I need to read the last page better, either way I like sitting here. Its odd, he feels like he's backtracking. I like that he took his vote off, but he says "its to early to pressure him" and he is already avoiding questioning this early in the game. He feels like he's trying to stay on the down low and stay out of the spot light, but for what reason?

So are you saying you think that he was aware he was putting TFL on L-2, then left the wagon when I asked him if he knew he'd put TFL on L2 because he was afraid of pressure?

About #8.
Fitz's reaction too.

it was a decent question and I have no issue with his "no" response.

Could you explain how it's a 'decent question'.

[Hopkirk]

@TPG-Key: A four-person scum hydra has incentive to coordinate before posting. Based on experience, your town hydra partners posted a lot more while in hydras. I just finished a game where RC/North were a town hydra, and Cheeky was in a town hydra (and it read like Cheeky barely had a hydra QT). Despite RC/North dying n1, the two hydras accounted for over 50% of the posts in a 9 player game. Therefore, not posting much initially is definitely odd in comparison.

Hopkirk this is dumb. I've only just noticed the game started. Also, we're town so.

~ Buttercup

What makes it dumb? It's a talking point based on an observation of difference.

Side point- how many people are in your hydra, I've seen 6 names so far.

[Hopkirk]

Oh sorry, I meant 22

[Hopkirk]

At least some nice feelings: Brass, Fitz, TPG, Fuzzy, Nero

We should talk: Dunn, Kop, Mom

At least some nasty feelings: Yurin, TNE, Chickadee, Kokichi

UNVOTE: Whoever
VOTE: TNE

[Hopkirk]

Nothing wrong with that^

@Chick: 'I don't like RVS votes.' I may or may not have done a metadive. Could you explain this.

[Hopkirk]

Don't L U L
L U L
Lul
Don't LUL
Mafiascum L U L
Mafiascum Lul
Mafiascum commonly used abbreviations

None of these searches give me any idea what you mean by 'Don't LUL' unless you mean don't laugh, which doesn't fit.

[Hopkirk]

TNE is the only person on the wagon I dislike right now.

[Hopkirk]

I missed you asking him about his vote and I like that he's unvoted but I don't like the reason he's given after, very passive and he's just... Behaving... I don't like that.

@fuzzy you don't have reads? What do you think of me, Nero? Are you just talking to us just to seem like you are doing something active?

If Brass is scum there do you think he knew how many votes were on Fuzzy already (and pretended he didn't), or that scum-Brass didn't know and unvoted because he was challenged? Which would be more likely.

TNE is pushing classic TNE things and hasn't done much since then, he's null

What do you mean.

[Hopkirk]

Votecount mod? Please.

At least some nasty feelings: Yurin, TNE, Chickadee, Kokichi

What gives you nasty feelings about Chickadee?

I feel like I kind of already covered the TFL thing when addressing Brass. Didn't feel the need to bring it up again.

And I just don't think your meta has feet to stand on. I don't agree with it. I've also played with them in hydras. I've also played with some of them as scum hydras. Also considering that the game JUST started, like 24 hours ago, i don't think anyone can truly be called a lurker yet.

Chikadee you seem different to me. I can't put my finger on it rn. But I feel like there's a bit of inconsistency in your posting so far.

1. You cast shade on someone whilst being lamist with your "why can't we scum hunt hunt if everyone hasn't posted" - taking what the dude said way out of context.

2. You say all the votes on the TFL wagon are bad but you don't say how instead you justify it with a weak TR.

3. When asked what you didn't like about hopkirk you say you didn't like his push on us, but how do you know we're town, weren't you the one saying we should scumhunt even if everyone hasn't checked in?

4. You opened with a gif...then explained it was because you were running short on time....it's RVS a naked vote would've taken far less time than sourcing and posting a gif plus it would have been far more productive.

~ Blossom

This.

[Hopkirk]

Momtangal was in one of my first two games on mafiascum.

@Chickadee: I did, but it's 1/2 I didn't like. Plus, kind of related to 3, saying you disliked my 'push' on TPG felt like a way to buddy with the hydra.

@Mom: What about 128/9 from TNE?

[Hopkirk]

At least some nice feelings: Brass, Fitz, TPG, Fuzzy, Nero

We should talk: Dunn, Kop, Mom

At least some nasty feelings: Yurin, TNE, Chickadee, Kokichi

UNVOTE: Whoever
VOTE: TNE

You should explain these

Which ones don't you feel I've explained- other than you?

[Hopkirk]

When I have 45 posts, It feels odd you're asking me to explain all of those reads while not asking anything about/to anyone else at the same time.
Combined with asking in general rather than specifics feels like you're primarily interested in my choice to put you in the nasty pile.

[Hopkirk]

Besides he's funny and the game can use humor.

Why is being funny a reason he should live? Not that town can't be funny but I think alot of scum use humor b/c likeability=less chance of getting lynched.

Where else do you want to venture?

idk. I'm kinda tunneling TFL and I'm not a fan of you or KOP blanket discrediting a TFL wagon but I know that disagree=//=dcum so IDK but no one else seems real scummy to me.

Do you have any townreads, or is everyone except Fuzzy neutralish?

[Hopkirk]

Momtangal was in one of my first two games on mafiascum.

@Chickadee: I did, but it's 1/2 I didn't like. Plus, kind of related to 3, saying you disliked my 'push' on TPG felt like a way to buddy with the hydra.

@Mom: What about 128/9 from TNE?

I’m kind of feeling like we’re not reading the same things?

Point #2 was straight up false and I proved it with a quote.

You say all the votes on the TFL wagon are bad but you don't say how

instead you justify it with a weak TR.

That's the part of 2 that I didn't like.

[Hopkirk]

Yeah, that's why I didn't put that half in italics. It's the first half I'm talking about.

[Hopkirk]

It felt like people found an easy push and just found a multitude of reasons to jump on. Brass's vote was by far the worst I think though.

Can you go through why specifically you disliked the other 3 votes then (excluding me/Brass). I don't get an impression you're following up on them.

When I have 45 posts, It feels odd you're asking me to explain all of those reads while not asking anything about/to anyone else at the same time.
Combined with asking in general rather than specifics feels like you're primarily interested in my choice to put you in the nasty pile.

Well, it's a bit weird for you to have those ind of reads like 5 pages in, when most of the posts have been joking, including yourself.

What kinds of reads exactly? The catagories I used weren't hard town/hard scum. Most of them were impressions.
Most of my posts aren't joking. There's been a fair amount of content/interactions going on and I don't really like dismissing them as irrelevant.

Nothing actually happened while I was gone

VOTE: Hop

Seems like a better vote right now

now I know it might seem like OMGUS

But its only 15% OMGUS so its on the threshold

My rule is that until you justify it, it's 100% omgus.

[Hopkirk]

@Chickadee: Expanding on the above, the votes on TFL were (Nero, TPG, TNE, Brass, Hop). You seemed ok with TPG’s vote, later said mine was fine, and haven’t commented on Nero/TNE or followed up on them afterwards. It feels like you’re saying the entire wagon is bad, but only following up on Brass- while not looking at (or in two cases, not even mentioning) the rest of the wagon.

[Hopkirk]

I think it's fair to ask how you read two people on a wagon you said was bad.

[Hopkirk]

Ok but I don’t really have much more thought than this right now and I’m tired of being asked the same question over and over.

It's not the same question over and over?
You asked me why I scumread you, I clarified, you misinterpreted, I clarified again. Now you don't want to respond by giving reads :/

[Hopkirk]

I’d be fine with being lynched just to not answer your questions because I know you’re not gonna leave me alone.

we coooouullllddd just lynch hop instead, it works either way :DD

When you made this post what effect did you want/expect it to have?

[Hopkirk]

What kinds of reads exactly? The catagories I used weren't hard town/hard scum. Most of them were impressions.
Most of my posts aren't joking. There's been a fair amount of content/interactions going on and I don't really like dismissing them as irrelevant.

Not enough to sort that much, in my opinion. So as I said, why don't you explain a few reads? What made you not like the people in the bottom list?

Which ones don't you feel I've explained- other than you?

You've skitted around responding to this.
Yurin: Mentioned why in 94. Agreed with Fitz it was odd to say 'sorry I'll catch up' the way she did.
TNE: Bad vote on TFL- surrounded by good ones.
Chickadee: See my last few posts.
Kokichi: This is the only unexplained one, which is why it sounds like you're asking about why you're in the nasty feelings pool without directly asking it.
Since you're asking: I didn't like 116 where you gave an empty comment instead of following up on Fitz. Nothing major.

Have you got any more reads now?

[Hopkirk]

Not justified given TFL moved his vote before TNE got here.
Doesn't comment on anything that's actually happened.
Comes back later and doesn't engage.
Not legitimate. Not explained. Not actually pushing. Not...

[Hopkirk]

@Chickadee: What are your thoughts on Nero/TNE?

@Fitz: Is Brass/Assembler in your lurker category, or is there another reason you want to lynch him?

TNE is ignoring stuff so I won’t be moving.

Don’t like Fuzzy’s lurking.

Still dislike Kokichi. As Dunn said, she’s only interested in his vote on her. Reflects her response to me.

[Hopkirk]

Started reading XD kinda dissapointed Hoprik is using so much meta, and with quite specific details to it.

Liking Chick for town now. Will partially explain if asked now, or fully explain if asked after TNE responds to her.

@Mom: has TNE done anything outside ‘classic scum TNE’ that’s making you more concerned about the slot? What is classic TNE actually?

I think Assembler lurked last two times I played with him as town (almost replaced once due to it), so wouldn’t say it’s AI yet.

Fuzzy/TNE isn’t SvS.

[Hopkirk]

I intended to quote Yurkin in this post.

@Yurkin: Can you expand on why you don't like me using that 'meta'? Just my comments in regard to you, or the other weak meta I've been intentionally using? How does it make you feel?

[Hopkirk]

Currently scumreads are TNE/Kokichi. Also want more from Yurkin, but wouldn't vote there yet.

@Nero: Why'd you like TNE's Hopkirk vote?

I think I can see/understand how both Fuzzy/Dunn are reading Fuzzy's comments (as Dunn quoted above) and reaching different conclusions. Obviously it makes more sense for them to discuss it/lay out why they see it as consistent/inconsistent first though in case I'm wrong.

[Hopkirk]

TPG's current play strongly alligns with a major town motivation that doesn't apply if they're scum.

now I know it might seem like OMGUS

But its only 15% OMGUS so its on the threshold

The problem is how she's trying to deny it's omgus when there's nothing to imply it's not- and there's plenty to comment on from my iso.
I can only assume 'don't L U L' is related to her not liking my vote- since she didn't bother defiining it.

[Hopkirk]

TPG
Nero
Fitz
Chick

Fuzzy
Kop

Mom

Brass/Assemb
Yurin

TNE
Kokichi

Won't be around until tomorrow night.

[Hopkirk]

Hop, you have me at the bottom, but you haven't even tried to engage me much or even vote me. Why?

I tried to engage you a bit when I mentioned my initial dislike on you. Your engagement back seemed to focus on my light scumread of you rather than anything else, and you didn't really follow up at all there.

Not voting you yet since I don't like to unvote people who don't answer questions. Although that slot's subbed out I noticed- so that'll probably change unless the replacement is scummy too.

Forgot how much I am okay with policy lynching Assemble despite how much I am generally against policy lynches...This is typical Assemnle

Assemble is in my scumpool now so I'd potentially/somewhat be happy with a 'policy lynch'- assuming we wait until later in the day since he might get replaced before then.
Do you read the slot as scum at all, or is it purely policy? I'll check your iso later, but want an answer too.

VOTE: Chickadee

That was a scumpost. Trying to justify the vote. A town would not say that before voting someone, they would just do it. and then later saying they wanted more from Yurkin as to why they voted, or just use it as reacton. Chickadee's post was just projecting and putting on an act as to why she's voting.

I'm fairly sure I've seen town try to justify a vote before.

[Hopkirk]

I just noticed I missed Dunn off on my readslist there. Any thoughts on that Dunn?

@Fitz:

Everyone could be doing more

: well I could try, but I think Chick would be pretty unhappy about it. Serious part: Were you including me in that comment, and how do you read me right now?

Mmm

So Dunn/Koichi is TvT, pretty much sold on that with answers from the both of them

Mmm.....

Definitely agree on Yurkin, but all the lurkers need to step up.

I don't think he's any more or less scummy than assemblethebrass slot

I'm very interested in how you read Koichi as town in that interaction.
Maybe because Koichi continued to claim a scumclaim on Dunn? But that's only relevant if she's dead set on pushing through the Chick lynch- which it doesn't look like she is (since she's not provided enough reasoning, or really tried to get Dunn to join her).

[Hopkirk]

After the amount of scum lurking I’ve seen in a long string of games, I’m getting more and more inclined to lynch the lurkers for the act of lurking.

@Almost50: I feel like you’ve caught the same thing I have. Do you think TPG is almost confirmed town right now?

Like I need to be more confused about which head is posting! Who's bubbles?

: Anyone dislike this? I kind of dislike this.
Since you've given a fake reads list can we have a real one?

[Hopkirk]

Reread Dunn very quickly. Neutral at best.

@Mom: additionally to the above, their conversation just seems to trail off. What did you think about that, or did you like the way it happened?

UNVOTE: TNE2

VOTE: Kokichi
Lets interact. There's three people I could vote here, and the other two are inactive enough that I won't get value voting to interact.
Do you feel that reason is also one a town wouldn't give?

[Hopkirk]

I disliked the question because it's a legitimate question. It would be useful to know that. The odd bit was the way it was mixed in the middle of jokes.
Oh, that's not what I was thinking we might both have been thinking on TPG though.

Do you have any thoughts on Fuzzy, or interactions going on around Fuzzy?

[Hopkirk]

Like

Post 1
Joke
Joke

Post 2
Joke
Serious
Joke

Reads as odd.

[Hopkirk]

this quote is from me in response to 258 from Kokichi, as also quoted below:

I tried to engage you a bit when I mentioned my initial dislike on you. Your engagement back seemed to focus on my light scumread of you rather than anything else, and you didn't really follow up at all there.

Not voting you yet since I don't like to unvote people who don't answer questions. Although that slot's subbed out I noticed- so that'll probably change unless the replacement is scummy too.

Hop, you have me at the bottom, but you haven't even tried to engage me much or even vote me. Why?

Lets interact. There's three people I could vote here, and the other two are inactive enough that I won't get value voting to interact.
Do you feel that reason is also one a town wouldn't give?

Better question, how about you tell me why you vote me before you try to sort and interact with me? Especially when I was the one who said we should interact first.

I responded to the point where you claimed that I 'wasn't interesting in engaging' with you. Either you missed it, or disagreed but didn't want to talk about it. I don't like that.

I invited you to engage with me in regard to your read on Chick. You didn't take the implicit offer to talk about it. This extends the feeling that you don't want Chick actually lynched/pushed hard since you should be looking for opportunities to explain/debate the read on her if you believe in it.

You aren't making an effort to interact with me in 311. Even if you don't think I'm trying to engage with you, there's no reason you can't try and engage with me. But you're focusing entirely on my read on you rather than mentioning anything about my posts, my thoughts, or the areas where I disagree with you.

Also as a funny side point, you said that town don't justify their votes- but you're complaining that I haven't given enough justification for a vote on you.

[Hopkirk]

Maybe because Koichi continued to claim a scumclaim on Dunn?

Part of it. The rest of this post has fair value, but I missed Koichi trying to get Dunn to join her, the whole interaction between the two seems..m genuine. I can see how she came to the conclusion she did and it didn't really seem like one scum would have

I'm looking at how I expect you to act, not how I expect myself to act

What do you think of my Chickadee post?

What about her is towny?

That post...

I didn't say I townread her? I just didn't see a reason to vote her after looking at her iso when you voted

Still suspicious of you. Chick will be my vote for today though.

Kokichi's posts in that discussion. Following her attack on Chick. Progression is:

-Attacks Chick.
-Dunn doesn't agree.
-Kokichi pushes for why three times.
-Dunn disagrees the post was scummy without explaining why.
-Kokichi doesn't push Dunn for why he thinks it's not scummy. She lets it lie after he says he didn't dislike the post.
-Kokichi lets it drop instead of pushing Dunn for why. Pushing would also help if looking for associations later.

On the surface, Kokichi is 'pushing' Dunn on the read, but she doesn't go the step forward and engage with him more deeply. I don't really get the sense she cares whether Dunn votes Chick with her (or if anyone else does). Same thing seems to apply in her interactions with me as said above.

[Hopkirk]

13th

@mod V/LA for today, will be on tomorrow.

16th

oh, he's v/la. EH.

vote:Yurkin

Just noticed this. Did you think Kop was still V/LA, and does it affect anything that he wasn't V/LA at that point?
I know you voted Kurkin instead since you thought Kop was V/LA.

More thoughts on this to follow post response.

[Hopkirk]

@Mom: Either why do you have Yurkin below TNE, or why do you have TNE above Yurkin?

@Fuzzy: Assemble is Brass, I was wondering mainly how you felt about Brass’ vote/unvote on you.

Could anyone with a scumread on Kop tell me where they’re coming from.

@TPG: I assumed your slot’s lack of posts was intentional. Town-you has a strong incentive to play that way to avoid the nightkill. A good four-person town hydra is going to be targeted unless mafia are afraid of watchers/doctors etc. Mafia-you doesn’t have that strong incentive. I got the impression you/TPG was giving just enough to try and avoid kills while still making your reads/thoughts clear.

Does Bubbles agree with the townread on me?

[Hopkirk]

@Kop: I initially disliked 175. Chick later answered the question she avoided in 175 in 236, after I asked her again. I thought 236 mitigated 175. Any thoughts there?

Kokichi is a good vote still. Still ignoring direct invitations to engage on multiple points despite allegedly wanting to engage more.

@Fuzzy: Do you agree or disagree with Mom in relation to her read on Dunn/Kokichi?

@Kop: Why didn’t you comment on the vote Dunn just made? You commented on the same vote from Assemble, and Dunn’s in your scumpool.

Nero’s tunnel on Fuzzy doesn’t seem like a scummy tunnel. @Nero: Are you scumreading Kop? I’m not sure given the way you worded the last post.

[Hopkirk]

Kokichi is a good vote still. Still ignoring direct invitations to engage on multiple points despite allegedly wanting to engage more.

This is a lie

Vote chick then. I may be bussing!

this quote is from me in response to 258 from Kokichi, as also quoted below:

I tried to engage you a bit when I mentioned my initial dislike on you. Your engagement back seemed to focus on my light scumread of you rather than anything else, and you didn't really follow up at all there.

Not voting you yet since I don't like to unvote people who don't answer questions. Although that slot's subbed out I noticed- so that'll probably change unless the replacement is scummy too.

Hop, you have me at the bottom, but you haven't even tried to engage me much or even vote me. Why?

Lets interact. There's three people I could vote here, and the other two are inactive enough that I won't get value voting to interact.
Do you feel that reason is also one a town wouldn't give?

Better question, how about you tell me why you vote me before you try to sort and interact with me? Especially when I was the one who said we should interact first.

I responded to the point where you claimed that I 'wasn't interesting in engaging' with you. Either you missed it, or disagreed but didn't want to talk about it. I don't like that.

I invited you to engage with me in regard to your read on Chick. You didn't take the implicit offer to talk about it. This extends the feeling that you don't want Chick actually lynched/pushed hard since you should be looking for opportunities to explain/debate the read on her if you believe in it.

You aren't making an effort to interact with me in 311. Even if you don't think I'm trying to engage with you, there's no reason you can't try and engage with me. But you're focusing entirely on my read on you rather than mentioning anything about my posts, my thoughts, or the areas where I disagree with you.

Also as a funny side point, you said that town don't justify their votes- but you're complaining that I haven't given enough justification for a vote on you.

Note how 337, the only post Kokichi had made when I made 348, ignores 327 completely. You're claiming I'm not trying to engage with you while also intentionally ignoring my posts that reference you. This isn't the first time either- that's what 327 was talking about.

[Hopkirk]

13th

@mod V/LA for today, will be on tomorrow.

16th

oh, he's v/la. EH.

vote:Yurkin

Just noticed this. Did you think Kop was still V/LA, and does it affect anything that he wasn't V/LA at that point?
I know you voted Kurkin instead since you thought Kop was V/LA.

More thoughts on this to follow post response.

i had apparently missed this.

Yea, I unvoted Kop b/c I thought he was still v/la but you already knew that so idk what you are asking.

As of my question, you had not revoted Kop.
I wanted to know why.
You revoted Kop which is in line with what I hypothesised for town you to do then.

[Hopkirk]

Yurkin and Fitz are due for prods.

@Almost50: Why Yurkin over Brass/Assemble?

[Hopkirk]

Chick is scum but since no one wants that VOTE: kop

Explain the damn Chick read then like I asked.

[Hopkirk]

@Almost50: Why Yurkin over Brass/Assemble?

Assemble replaced in and brass hasn't posted in 6 days so probably will be replaced.

Yurkin has 4 posts. He posts roughly once every 48 hours and says he "will" do stuff but never does, plus he asked to voted if he doesn't deliver.

Who are you saying Assemble replaced?

[Hopkirk]

@Almost50: What's your read on Kokichi?

[Hopkirk]

@Kop+Mom- what do you think of each other and why?

[Hopkirk]

My problem here is that Assemble/Kokichi look like your most likely partners. It's a little worrying you aren't good at reading one, and voted Yurkin instead of the other (for doing the same thing).

[Hopkirk]

My other problem is that these are the only games with you/Kokichi I can find.
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=73937
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=74171

I don't really get how she's 'always a hard read for me' from them. Am I missing more, or have you only got two games with her?

[Hopkirk]

@Kokichi: Sorry about refering to you as she a lot. I got the impression from your avatar, which is silly since I have a half female avatar.

Chick is scum but since no one wants that VOTE: kop

Explain the damn Chick read then like I asked.

I did. I don't like her post, it sounds fake. Why explain you want more out of a slot instead of just voting. That's 100% theatre posturing

You haven't explained the read, you've just said something Chick did without proving why it's a scummy thing to do.
This isn't a reason to be sure of scum- Chick unless you have either a.) Meta of Chick, or b.) Evidence of a strong general correlation.
I've seen it done by town. I've done it as town. Lots of people put a comment with a vote to avoid a naked vote.
In fact Chick did the same thing as town (using basically the same words- x needs more pressure) in the first game I checked: viewtopic.php?p=9832388#p9832388
So I don't see why it's scummy, and you haven't pushed Chick notably after saying it.

[Hopkirk]

My problem here is that Assemble/Kokichi look like your most likely partners. It's a little worrying you aren't good at reading one, and voted Yurkin instead of the other (for doing the same thing).

I see!

Well, you can make a case on whichever if them you want to lynch and we can all evaluate it.

Also, how do you get Assemble/Koki to be my "most likely partners"?
And who do you think he 4th would be?
How do you explain two scums replacing out so early?
Does the fact I slipped no knowing Assemble replaced brass affect your reads at all, or do you think I faked ignorance?

P-edit: I also played him in a [ulr=viewtopic.php?f=23&t=73987]3rd game[/url] (actually was the 1st because I was a replacement in Magical Girls), and I never actually managed to peg him correctly on D1.

That said, you also seem to not be able to read him at all. You even keep referring to him as a she, while I -at least- remember his declared pronoun.

I've given a fair few thoughts on Kokichi that you're free to look at and comment on.
It's not really possible for me to 'case' Assemble. He's inactive and has few enough posts that I only have minor reasons. You know I can't properly case him since you accepted he's inactive. My problem there was that you seem to be treating him differently.

I took a list of the 30 possible teams of people I'm scumreadin (-Yurin because they don't have interactions that can be analysed). Eliminated 27 of them for varying reasons, leaving that one, and Mom+Kop+either Dunn or Kokichi. I don't have a 4th person based on the way I did it, and nothing is solid about it right now.

Scum replace out slightly more frequently than town anyway. Brass replaced out due to irl stuff and Assmble hasn't replaced out yet. What point are you trying to make/make me accept with this question?

I don't think I'll work out whether you faked that reaction or not until after you flip. It didn't influence me one way or another since whether I buy it or not depends on your alignment. It'd probably make Assemble more likely to flip as your partner, but that's only relevant after flips.

[Hopkirk]

3rd game

Fixed.

You definitely seem to flip around a low on Kokichi (from a ctrl f iso skim). In additional to other one where you flipped repeatedly on him, I buy that town you would say you have trouble reading Kokichi.

[Hopkirk]

Deadline is roughly half what I thought it was.

VOTE: Assmble

[Hopkirk]

'people I'm scumreadin'

Replace this with 'people I'm not hard townreading'.

[Hopkirk]

'people I'm scumreadin'

Replace this with 'people I'm not hard townreading'.

are you not hard town reading Yurkin? If so why Ass over Yurkin?

That was replacing an above comment, beginning 'people I'm scumreading'. If you read the rest of the setnence, you'd see I ignored Yurkin from consideration as there's no significant associations regarding the slot that really let me discount pairings. Adding every combinations of X+Y+Yurkin doesn't add anything to the result as long as it's clear I'm discounting Yurkin there.

@Almost: regarding 383.
- Why aren’t you cutting Yurkin slack given he’s got 99 total posts on site? Same applies to the comment that you don’t know him from before.
- I think I made it clear I wasn’t listing combinations and discounting anything else, I was using it as a tool. That should have been clear from none of the teams mentioning Yurkin. Plus there’s too few from several people to be solid. I’m not treating anything there as 100% (not even close to it), especially not D1.
I agree the 48h thing you’ve mentioned a few times is a problem.

[Hopkirk]

@Nero/384: At the time you weren’t voting Kop. I was trying to work out if you weren’t voting him but knew he wasn’t V/LA. I believe you thought he was V/LA, so all is good.

@Fuzzy: Mom says she townread both Dunn and Kokichi based on an interaction they had. I don’t see why she townread them based on it. What do you think of the interaction they had, and Mom’s thoughts on it?

[Hopkirk]

@Kop+Mom- what do you think of each other and why?

Who?

Not anywhere on my mind regarding this game, had to even iso him to remember his contributions and I can't make heads or tails with him


Also, we have three days and you jump off a big wagon to join me when I already state intent to hammer?

I mean I would love to get assemble lynched overall but neither him or brass us giving me anything to pull a case out of outside what I already stated may be like 2-3 times

I was never voting Yurkin. I unvoted Kokichi.
Yurkin was also never on L1.
I don't really understand what you're saying there.

[Hopkirk]

I’m town on TFL, Almost50, Nero, Chickadee, TPG, and Fitz.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Kop

[Hopkirk]

Is there any reason to townread
Yurkin/Mom/Dunn/Kop

[Hopkirk]

What specifically from Dunn are you saying would be less likely to come from scum?

[Hopkirk]

If scum are hard lurking strategically then they're aware of what they're doing. That doesn't require them to be selfconcious.
It's scummy if someone else brings it up. Dunn lampshades it with that mentioned then goes back to lurking. He doesn't stop the behaviour, but puts in the effort to try and premptively defend himself against criticisms for it.
The development of his Kokichi read doesn't really make sense. He votes him, seeming to try and engage, but doesn't really engage thoroughly, doesn't seem to care about Kokichi's read of him changing (the counter-vote after he says it's weird she's not suspicious of his), and the specific engagement you're talking about is too short/looks intentionally dropped to read like he's developing the read.
270 and 279 don't really allign with the narrative you're suggesting.

[Hopkirk]

@Bubbles: do you agree with Key's read on me.

[Hopkirk]

I'm thinking multiple scum are in the low activity but high enough to avoid being in the PL zone.

@Fuzzy: Mom says she townread both Dunn and Kokichi based on an interaction they had. I don’t see why she townread them based on it. What do you think of the interaction they had, and Mom’s thoughts on it?

Cool

Let me see what my dad thinks of this game

Is that what you have? Are you done?

[Hopkirk]

I don't want to vote Yurking with that wagon.

Dunn doesn't explain his Yurkin vote. He'd previously attacked Assmble, but doesn't seem to consider voting Assemble.
Kop's Yurkin vote is naked. He expressed a scumread on Brass (Assemble's slot) early on. Later, he didn't even have Assemble in his willing to lynch pile.
Mom has said several times she'd prefer Assmble, but didn't join me on him when I voted him yesterday. Her 'hammer' today doesn't look good either.

These three are people I'm suspicious of, and they're all voting Yurkin- and voting him when their isos suggest they should be voting Assemble instead. I do not expect a Yurkin scumflip based on this. Assemble would be a better lynch if we purely want to lynch a lurker based on this, along with other reasons (not least, Assemble is active enough to avoid replacement, Yurkin is basically being replaced now, so Assemble is objectively better if the aim is to lynch a lurker). We get more information on interactions there too.

On the other hand, this could be scum deciding to bus a worthless partner. Or I could be completely wrong right now. Either way, I don't want to end the day yet. I'm really not happy with Mom's hammer, or that she didn't respond to my points on Dunn.

[Hopkirk]

Right now I'm looking closely at (Dunn/Kop/Assemble/Mom).
I feel like I'm a good nightkill target if scum wants apathy. I'm definitely not happy with that attempt to end the day.

[Hopkirk]

Any thoughts on Mom attempting to hammer without replying to my points against her townread on Dunn?

[Hopkirk]

Any thoughts on Mom attempting to hammer without replying to my points against her townread on Dunn?

What does it matter wrt today's likely outcomes (kop or yurkin lynch)? Dunn and Mom will probably both still be here tomorrow. She can address it then.

What I'm getting at is that if she hammers when the mod's around and I'm not, then I might not be around tomorrow. I wouldn't expect anyone to push her to respond to it if I died, or for scum-Mom to respond without prompting if I died.

[Hopkirk]

@Fitz: If we have to lynch a lurker, lets lynch a lurker

who isn't about to be replaced

.
Assemble/Kop aren't likely to be replaced anytime soon since they're not point blank gone like Yurkin seems to be. There's no way they'd get replaced D1, but Yurkin should do. Optimal plan for removing lurkers is to lynch a non-Yurkin lurker.

Yurkin's been gone from the site for 4 days. That's site-flaking, not lurking.
It's kind of funny Yurkin rhymes with Lurkin' and shares most of the letters.

[Hopkirk]

Aside the fact that I already placed intent?

I would much rather lynch some one I think is scum but I'm not so delusional to think I am able to get that when I have nothing to work with.

As far as my read on Dunn goes I already said why I have it and just because you posted against it doesn't mean I need to agree with it.

You're entitled to your opinions, but just because you think its shallow doesn't mean I need to think the same

Mom has said several times she'd prefer Assmble, but didn't join me on him when I voted him yesterday. Her 'hammer' today doesn't look good either.

I just noticed that what I said here is false since you were on Assemble the whole time- so didn't 'avoid joining me on him.'

[Hopkirk]

Oh yeah, plus Yurkin can't claim if he's flaked. A replacement could. The rest of the lurkers could.

Kop, Dunn, or maybe Assemble are my preferences for lynching currently.

[Hopkirk]

Kop's got 3 votes on him, and is 'lurking' but also 'too active to risk being replaced'. He'd be a better 'lurker lynch' too.

[Hopkirk]

Dunn, TFL, and Mom are likely partners for Kop.

Dunn- Claims not to like Dunn/Kokichi interaction. Votes Kokichi. Doesn’t mention Dunn or anything Dunn does otherwise.

TFL- Initial attack on Brass for his place on the wagon. Lightly discrediting the wagon. Followed by attack on TNE who was on the wagon. Later defends TFL from Nero. Could be associative or just buddying.

Mom- Odd Kop scumreads both Kokichi/Dunn for the Kokichi/Dunn interaction. Neither him nor Mom engage the other on this point.

[Hopkirk]

@Hop: Kop is Town. If he was Scum Yurkin's lynch

would

have gone through. The way it got dismantled points to scum trying to save their buddy and replacing him with a Kop lynch as a scapegoat.

Why? My current perspective can be explained by scum not being on the wagon early- and being reluctant to jump on the easiest mislynch.
Why does the Yurkin lynch go through with Kop scum?
The way I see it, Kop and two potential partners voted Yurkin when Kop was put under threat/just after I voted him. It looks like scum might have been trying to push the Yurkin lynch to defend Kop.
Although this doesn't rely on both Mom/Dunn being Kop's partners. I could see town-Mom doing that too. Fuzzy, another possible partner, hasn't been on line recently.

[Hopkirk]

This game is terrible. No offense mod...you can't help who the player list is. Everyone could be doing more..including me. But the lurkass awol low posting players are dragging it to a whole nother level down. I can't stand games that Assembler and Kop are in because they are black holes of no/low content and mod replacements. And they have competition this game with yurkin and TNE. Fcuk. Can we just quicklynch someone? Anyone so this day can end and perhaps the players left can recharge/regroup/get some fire under their asses?

Assembler - yurkin - TNE....Kop less so for v/LA I guess. Any of these. Can we have multiple D1 lynches?

At least Kokichi is posting a bit so there is hope there. TFL being TFL but at least ~here.

yurkin pissing me off the most atm so

VOTE: yurkin

v/LA until next Tuesday

(Feb 20)

I don't think scum-Fitz makes this post if he's with scum-Yurkin. It's likely the lynch could go through just off of apathy at that point, and Fitz is consistently somewhat apathetic/annoyed by lurkers from this point on.

If Fitz was doing a gambit where he bussed a partner because he expected the partner to be replaced, leaving Fitz to vote one of those other people while heavily distancing from Yurkin then I'd be impressed, but it seems unlikely.

[Hopkirk]

@Almost50:

A50...explain you Kop tr. Please.

I just did. The shear resistance to yurkin's wagon makes Kop the designated counterwagon, and you only need to see who is voting which at what times. Kop is Town, yurkin is most likely not.

The Kop wagon was TPG, Nero, and me until Fitz just joined. Nero and TPG had been there a while. If it's a counterwagon, then I'm the one forming a counterwagon.

Did you read 483 where I explained my thoughts on the Yurkin/Fitz interactions?

[Hopkirk]

To summarise why I don’t like Kop: his posting consistently feels convenient rather than consistent, and lacks forward momentum/impact.

He reads Brass as scum in response to Brass’ place on TFL’s wagon then doesn’t mention Brass again. This seems like defending a partner, or defending what Kop thinks is easily influenced town- given he described TFL as lynchbaity. He doesn’t seem to consider whether town-Brass makes the TFL vote by mistake, since Kop only considers scum-Brass in 119 after I question him on it. Despite this, the Brass read doesn’t come up again.

His TNE vote is a sheep vote (as he said, he followed my vote). Doesn’t move things on. He asks Almost50 a few questions, but doesn’t follow up on these. Based on his later posts not mentioning Almost50 again, he’s either moved to a townread (why?), or just doesn’t care enough to bother following up. The one question he asks is barely a question anyway, just ‘do you scumread Hopkirk too’, not really sure what he wanted to get out of it.

Dislikes the Dunn/Kokichi interactions. Doesn’t explain beyond an impression of distancing. Votes Kokichi, doesn’t mention Dunn otherwise. Doesn’t trigger examination of Kokichi or Dunn. Like a lot of Kop’s positions, it just seems to form in the moment. Don’t see where it comes from or go.

Response to Nero is a defence of Fuzzy. Only major engagement post-wall is with Nero. It sounds like he’s scumreading Nero while not pushing him. Nero isn’t widely scumread here. This is a missed opportunity to move things along/add impact.

His Yurkin vote is bad is naked. It’s also consistent with what I’m talking about. Convenience- since he hasn’t scumread Yurkin before, and lacking impact as he’s voting Yurkin instead of developing anything else. He disliked Assemble’s Yurkin vote as well. Kind of inconsistent given he joins him.
Perhaps more significantly, his Yurkin vote is inconsistent with what he’s argued before. In 119 and 131, Kop argues against the TFL wagon because TFL is ‘lynchbait’. Despite this, he’s willing to vote Yurkin- the definition of lynchbait here. 100 posts on site, and inactive. It’s not a consistent approach.

[Hopkirk]

Kokichi’s vote change there is consistent with what she’s said in regards to Kop/Fitz so far. My only worry there is a thought I had before- Kop/Kokichi potentially making weak votes on each other while Yurkin was the dominant wagon and hoping it led to the lynch while making them look good.

@Kokichi: Could you go through your Fitz read a bit more?

@Almost50: My problem with your explination in 497 is that there wasn’t a serious counterwagon to Yurkin until I switched to Kop. If Yurkin/Kop/x were scum then they were intending to hard bus there. Fitz doesn’t really read as hard bussing, and it’s not advantageous to him either. It’d be too easy for the Yurkin wagon to lead to a lynch that he wouldn’t want.

@Hop: Kop is Town. If he was Scum Yurkin's lynch

would

have gone through. The way it got dismantled points to scum trying to save their buddy and replacing him with a Kop lynch as a scapegoat.

Why? My current perspective can be explained by scum not being on the wagon early- and being reluctant to jump on the easiest mislynch.
Why does the Yurkin lynch go through with Kop scum?
The way I see it, Kop and two potential partners voted Yurkin when Kop was put under threat/just after I voted him. It looks like scum might have been trying to push the Yurkin lynch to defend Kop.
Although this doesn't rely on both Mom/Dunn being Kop's partners. I could see town-Mom doing that too. Fuzzy, another possible partner, hasn't been on line recently.

The key points from this that I don't think you've addressed are these:

Fitz didn't do anything to try and start a counterwagon.
The Yurkin wagon gained more momentum after Kop became a serious counterwagon. That seems unlikely if no scum are pushing the Kop wagon as a counterwagon, and Fitz didn't show signs of desire to leave until my point about Yurkin being more likely to get replaced.

[Hopkirk]

Koki's hop on kop and then hop

I much prefer the phrasing Kok’s hop off his Kop hop after Hop’s Kop hop.

[Hopkirk]

@Almost50: In regard to your thoughts on Yurkin posting every 48hish hours to avoid prods, I had a similar experience in my last game. The player went 8 days once without posting, and around 80 hours three other times. I was 100% sure he was scum. He was. Nobody else wanted to lynch him and we lost. He feels different from Yurkin. One of my suspicions there was how hard the player was going to avoid subbing out, and how he was posting small amounts of content while claiming to catch up. That looked intentional. Yurkin just looks like a newbie who site flaked. Especially now it's been 4 days since his last post.

For your theory of tactical lurking to be true, he should have posted about 48h ago. The lack of post 48h ago damages the hypothesis that he was tactically prod dodging- or he'd have done it again or done something else instead of flaing. The 48h/lurking thing should become NAI after that/now that it looks like he siteflaked.

[Hopkirk]

@Almost 50: The plan you’re suggesting for Fitz doesn’t work on four levels.
- It requires him to have planned unpredictable events in advance
- It falls apart if there isn’t a counterwagon
- It assumes no pr influence anywhere
- It assumes a town willing to go along with a string of lynches that are based purely on basic and trivially fakable association rather than play

That string of lynches wouldn’t be achievable even if this was a mountainous setup where Fitz could be sure that You, Me, and Kop weren’t Prs, and could be sure no prs would do anything worthwhile at night. The Kop one initially relies on somebody actually brining up an alternative to Yurkin- which wasn’t happening. The me/you lynches there are reliant on me specifically brining up Kop and you specifically reading the game how you do- then town just buying ‘mafia would never bus an afk partner’ which isn’t happening.

[Hopkirk]

Dunn doesn't explain his Yurkin vote. He'd previously attacked Assmble, but doesn't seem to consider voting Assemble.

These three are people I'm suspicious of, and they're all voting Yurkin- and voting him when their isos suggest they should be voting Assemble instead.

Uh, this didn't happen

Like I never gave an opinion on assembley either way, you latched onto something incredibly minor to use to suggest I should be voting him

To be fair, the comment I was basing this on could have been a joke about Assemble's meta of not contributing.
My thoughts were probably coloured by your choice to joke in order to avoid contribution during your last series of posts (especially 422), so I was probably looking for things and reading it that way.

I think it'd read better if I'd said 'could be voting Assemble instead' as opposed to 'should be'.

[Hopkirk]

@Hop: I'll accept he flaked when he does actually get replaced. Meanwhile, I'm still opposed to the Kop lynch until you show me what you see different here than his play in the game I linked of him with both myself and fitz.

Something that caught my attention right away

-he expresses suspicion of Math in 90 for explained reasons and starts a wagon
-he pays attention to responses and makes his read on Math relatively clear (eg 123)
-he makes it obvious later that he townreads Dino

Immediate differences to this game
-He's starting a new wagon and moving the game forward rather than letting it stagnate
-His play involves a lot more interaction and explination
-His reads seem to be forming and evolving over time then appearing and vanishing when it fits

322 and 679 on Impede seem similar.


Obviously there's going to be issues given I wasn't in the game. It's hard to read momentum if it's not in real time, and (lack of) momentum in this game is really significant in influencing how it's going. Plus I can't read the whole game. Still, you're asking me to look at it, so I guess you've accounted for that and will continue to do so in response to these initial thoughts. I might take another look later.

[Hopkirk]

Also, he didn't look into it either

What's this in response to?

[Hopkirk]

Fuzzy isn't in my hard town pile anymore.

[Hopkirk]

Also, he didn't look into it either

What's this in response to?

521 and when I say assemble wouldn't look into my meta or anything after he said he would - he didn't

Interesting. I'll have to check if this is a scumtell or just a Dunntell. I've played with Dunn twice, we were both town both times, and I haven't seen him doing something like this, but it's possible he's done this in other towngames.

And you think both part of that are NAI?

[Hopkirk]

Looking at Fuzzy and he's questioned people's scumreads on Kop a couple of times while not interacting with Kop.
I could definitely see that as 2/3 of the scumteam.

[Hopkirk]

What changed your mind on Kop? Just desire for a lynch?

[Hopkirk]

I don't like the way Kop claimed and didn't say much else. Lack of engagement gives the impression the claim is to avoid a lynch.
However, I think it's too close to deadline to deal with Kop today. Needs more discussion before I can be comfortable with the risk.
Of course I'm always reluctant to lynch pr claims d1/risk adverse in that regard. A few games ago I unvoted my top scumread D1, voted someone else after they claimed a pr, then unvoted the second after they claimed pr. They both flipped scum eventually.

Will post more later.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Dunn

This or Assemble I guess.

[Hopkirk]

Or Mom maybe.

@SomethingSmart: Are we getting an extension with the Yurkin replacement?

[Hopkirk]

Actually Assemble town-flip gives us even less than I was thinking, and he's probably flipping town.
Lets leave that to any hopefully existing vigilantes.

VOTE: Mom

[Hopkirk]

Pushes on Assembler and Kokichi feel weird now given I pushed them earlier without anyone really being receptive to them.
Why is there no pressure on Dunn after the Kop claim, or before it even?

[Hopkirk]

OK.. Dunn, mom or Assemble. Anybody has a case? Or would you rather I draw from a deck of cards and vote whomever lands a couple of deuces????

P-edit: OK, scratch out Assemble. mom it is.

VOTE: mom

This was in response to my posts (614/5), right?

[Hopkirk]

These wagons are filling up way too easily.

Which wagons? Specifically:
Fitz/Mom/Dunn on Assemble
Nero/Hopkirk/Almost on Mom

Or are you counting Yurkin/Kop too?

[Hopkirk]

Yurkin, assemble, mom all filled fast.

Is it the Fitz/Mom/Dunn overlap on Yurkin/Assemble you're concerned about? That had me a little concerned.
Don't really see the problem with Assemble/Mom if you discount Yurkin comparisons since there wasn't overlap between Assemble/Mom. If you count Yurkin, 2/3 compared to Mom are different voters.

[Hopkirk]

@Hop

-why are you scumreading mom?

Will respond in a seperate post.

and he's probably flipping town.

Why? He is here. He's posting on the site. No v/LA. No flaking. He's just not contributing crap. Do you want him in LYLO if he is town?

I haven't done a close look at the Assembler...Mom...or Dunn slots. Not interested voting Mom unless someone had a compelling case.

Dunnstral perhaps.

Though still think I prefer Assembler to Dunn.

He's probably flipping town because statistically a random person is more likely to be town, and he's not done enough to move very far away from being a random person.
Not sure how you equate that to 'you want him in lylo'. I even said that's the kind of person a vig should shoot tonight.

hrmmm...not really a mom fan but the wagon picking up so much speed kinda worries me.

4 votes in a couple of days when it was (before the extension) 1 day to deadline isn't all that fast.

[Hopkirk]

102 Didn’t overlike like Kop’s Brass vote and justification. Mom’s vote is the same 10 posts after Kop’s. 103/134 Isn’t really considering town-motivations for Brass. Sounds a bit like working backwards from a read. 227 on wanting to keep funny people in the game is kind of awkward. She seems to be treating Brass as scum due to Fuzzy being town, without being able to provide any better reasons for town-Fuzzy here.

288- Dunn/Kokichi as TvT I still dislike. Feels like looking for townreads rather than finding them in a way. Didn’t ever really like the justification Mom gave over their discussion.

318- Readslist. Dunn/Kokichi at the top with Nero. Followed by TPG/TFL. Dunn/Kokichi I disliked- especially being so strong. Nero/TPG/TFL are unjustified by Mom’s iso. Given the townreads not being fully justified, it feels Mom might care more about having the readslist there then she does about having people understand her reads and share her townreads. Scum are also all lurkers. Kop is positioned at the top of the lurkers section- possibly so Mom can avoid mentioning him (she’s already mentioned Assemble/TNE at this point, and later votes Yurkin).

406- Responds to me asking about Kop. She had him in the scumpool. She responds that she’s not really concerned with and doesn’t remember the slot. Bad interaction with Kop. Inconsistent that she intends to hammer Yurkin assumedly for inactivity, but doesn’t want to go through Kop (despite explicitly not being able to remember him or having any remarks on his contributions). Kop would actually have probably been the most receptive person to an Assemble wagon here come to think of it.

407- Like the above. Can’t remember Kop is neutral. Can’t remember Yurkin is a reason to be happy hammering him.

451- Didn’t like the hammer attempt with three days to go without finishing the ongoing discussion. Dismisses my thoughts on Dunn in 468 instead of explaining them. Also signals lack of desire for people to share her reads.

539- Says not going to stop Kop wagon while looking for a counterwagon. Associations with Kop over the iso make a Mom lynch sort of a proxy lynch of Kop.

603- Not really a scumpoint since town get conf.biased, but realizing Brass’ sub-out was due to work should have nullified half of Mom’s case.


@Nero: Thoughts on Kop/Mom/Fuzzy? (or maybe replacing Fuzzy with Dunn)

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Mom

L-2. I think overall, this would give us a lot more than what lynching Assemble, Dunn would.

What kind of things do you think we'd get from either a scum or townflip?

@Gamma:
654 from me just above is a case on Mom.

How's your catch up going?

[Hopkirk]

No problems with Kop from 665.

@Fitz: It’s not a case of a.) lynch them d1, or b.) let them survive to lylo.

@Gamma: Regarding 101- Two strong reads (both are a bit odd) based on somewhat Fuzzy reasoning. Pun intended. Not dismissible as RVS reads since they’ve carried over.
Regarding 603- Brass’s final post specified it was a ‘work project’. If Mom had isod Brass she should have seen it, though town don’t always reiso people and it was a while ago now.
Was considering whether it was an AI replace out at one point (specifically when I dropped him from town to light scum and voted him- thinking he might have subbed out due to being scum), but this comment in a game he completed shortly after he subbed out of this one shows him saying he replaced out of this one (‘other games’, not referenced by name- so not referencing an ongoing game) where/since it was still D1 in that/those game(s): viewtopic.php?p=9954557#p9954557

[Hopkirk]

Forewarning, I'm moving to start a new job on Saturday so I won't be around on Saturday before deadline.
Should definitely still be able to post Friday. Active hours will change D2.

[Hopkirk]

@Fitz: It’s not a case of a.) lynch them d1, or b.) let them survive to lylo.

I didn't say it was. But it's only a day from that...if they are both town.

Would you want town!them in/near lylo?

I don't and as I said...they could actually be scum. So lynch bonus.

Also....I'm isoing Mom. Will comment asap.

Only a day from lylo?
Isn't the standard in a mini like 10-3? That makes lylo D4 (later if we lynch any mafia in 3 attempts), assuming one lynch/kill per complete phase.
Or if we have a vigilante/similar roles, the lurkers are prime targets.
On a mechnical level I think it's better to lynch them D2/3 if we have any other suspects- which we do have.

This applies to Assemble, not Dunn who I find somewhat scummy anyway.

[Hopkirk]

@Something_Smart: I love it when mods update alive/dead players when the games end. Thank you for being the kind of mod who does this. Makes metaing players so much easier when you can see alignments without digging first.

---
Backing up my point @Fitz

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=68519 (scum jailkeeper here)
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=66137 (town jailkeeper replaced with town RB in setup review)
viewtopic.php?f=23&t=73603 (atypical setup)

These are SS’s previously modded minis of the same size. Excluding a couple of role madness/upick games. We should expect 3 mafia and 4-5 town power roles.

[Hopkirk]

@Gamma: Are you typing as you read then posting after a few pages?

-Read Fuzzy saying he hopes scum slip in 21 then 22 will make a lot more sense.

-Voted Brass because I wanted to try and engage with as many people as possible as soon as possible this game and see how that went.

-TFL follows up on 36 in 57- where you’re saying you don’t see why he followed up. What do you mean here, since it sounds like you’re criticising him for not following up and for following up?

[Hopkirk]

I'm making the point Assemble/Dunn/X lylo isn't something to worry about D1 unless there's nobody scummier around.

[Hopkirk]

I was going to say the third point there was irrelevant if that's how you were doing it.

[Hopkirk]

Spoiler: Momrangal ISO

49 posts. Three votes...two on brassherald/Assembler and one on yurkin.

ISO#0...Announces return (from what idk know). Almost page 5, ~33hrs after the game start. meh
ISO#1...lukewarm on TFL wagon. Naked votes brassherald. meh
ISO#2...shades brass for unvoting the aforementioned lukewarm wagon.
ISO#3...fluff
ISO#4...defends TFL a bit to Nero. ok
ISO#5...reiterates brass suspicions. ok Pings TFL for reads. ok
ISO#6...defends TFL for NAI reasons. not good
ISO#7...reprimands TFL on voting seriously. meh
ISO#8...a little defense of TNE. meh
ISO#9...elaborates on brass read and defnds TNE a bit more. meh
ISO#10...more TNE defense
ISO#11...discusses funny TFL and his wagon. ok
ISO#12...brass/assembler shading. ok
ISO#13...TNE an option perhaps...getting frustrated with slot. ok
ISO#14...gives meta thought on TNE. meh
ISO#15...questions and rags on Dunnstral. ok
ISO#16...ebwop...ragging was on Assembler. ok
ISO#17...Dunn v Koki = tvt. meh. yurkin is = to Assembler. ok
ISO#18...fluff
ISO#19...explains Kiki Dunn tvt read. ok
ISO#20...reads list. Top three are nero/Koki/Dunn. Bottom three are Assembler/yurkin/TNE (A50). meh needs further refinement. meh
ISO#21...TNE and yurkin equally scummy.
ISO#22...feels like holding the yurkin hammer. Leery about Assembler pushing the wagon. meh
ISO#23...meh
ISO#24...Tells Hop that Kop is no where on his mind...had to iso. Despite having as 4th scummiest player in earlier reads. Questions Hop about joing him on insignificant brass wagon.
ISO#25...liking A50...yurkin not so much. ok
ISO#26...says Dunn's doing things scum unlikely to do. meh
ISO#27...quotes Dunn reference above. ok
ISO#28...Dunn tr chat. ok
ISO#29...Dunn tr chat. ok
ISO#30...naked fail!hammer vote on yurkin. meh
ISO#31...thought he hammered (not)
ISO#32...yep...he hammered (not)
ISO#33...defends yurkin vote and Dunn read. ok
ISO#34...hoping A50 is town.
ISO#35...won't stop (or support?) Kop wagon as he's not a town read. Pushing for an Assembler wagon. ok
ISO#36...has me as null. ok
ISO#37...meh
ISO#38...snarky reply to Nero wrt Assembler wagon. good
ISO#39...Assembler shade. ok
ISO#40...good brass/assembler reasoning given to Nero. good
ISO#41...asks Nero why he opposes an Assembler wagon. ok
ISO#42...^ not counting his (Assembler's) lurkiness.
ISO#43...game state frustration directed to Nero. ok Votes Assembler. ok
ISO#44...worried about a NL. meh. ok
ISO#45...doesn't support Kop lynch due to claim (today)
ISO#46...more brass/Assembler sr explaining? ok.
ISO#47...Kop meta. meh
ISO#48...More Assembler votes please? ok

Yeah...so not suspecting Momrangal too much after that. I don't see anything she's posted that feels too scummy. Maybe a few minor raised eyebrows but ftmp comes across as town to me. Not interested in voting.

Dunn or Assembler for me today I think. Think I might actually be back in the Assembler camp so....

VOTE: Assembler

Most of that seems to just be a narrative account of what Mom's said this game/summary. You're saying what she's done then saying 'meh' or 'ok'. I don't really see the point of that. You didn't point out any solidly town looking stuff or analyse the scumpoints. People are scumreading her for specific reasons, so if feels like a better idea to think about those reasons too (why they aren't as compelling as people think and so on).

Wait...

WAIT

why would I look for reasons to TR people as scum?

Scum need to townread people.
Scum have tactical incentives to townread specific people. Be it uncontroversial reads to blend in, people they want to manipulate/get on their side such as buddying, people who don't scumread mafia/agree with them, people they don't feel they could lynch, and so on.
Or scum might not put effort into forming those townreads and just give weak reasons for overly strong reads.
It seemed like you took a small point and formed solid/permenant townreads on the slots then didn't look at them after that.

[Hopkirk]

Wait...

WAIT

why would I look for reasons to TR people as scum?

What's this in response to?

My case from 654 I assume.

[Hopkirk]

@Gamma: Those weren’t townreads, they were nice/nasty impressions after 4 pages. Most based on 1-2 posts a week and a half ago, many of which I no longer hold. I couldn’t explain them now without rereading that section. What’s the point of this question?

@Mom: Scum can’t say ‘I’m willing to lynch these two lurkers, but I’ll settle for literally anyone’ since that’s not something town would say ever. Scum needs townreads. One of the main ways to pick your townreads as scum is tactically- as I said earlier. You’ve got to pick some townreads and cut yourself off participating in their lynches (but then you have partners who can still lynch them).
It sounds like you’re saying something close to ‘scum shouldn’t say they have (hard) townreads because it cuts down their options’. That’s clearly wrong.

[Hopkirk]

An lean light enough I can put everyone whose posted into one or the other. Appropriate for page 4-5.
Why do my thoughts at that time matter? I could reread, but I don't see what you're hoping to gain from it.

[Hopkirk]

Given GE sounds like he didn't want to push Mom anymore after a softclaim, I'd be surprised if he knew Kop claimed a pr.

@Mom: What do you think of Fuzzy leaving his vote on Kop after the claim?

Not currently intending to unvote Mom.

[Hopkirk]

What's it called?

[Hopkirk]

N1 I'm killed after D2 ends D3 immediately begins

Am I rewording this right: If you're killed n1, n2 is skipped.

[Hopkirk]

It seems odd that would be allowed when Beloved Princess is listed as 'explicitly non normal' here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game
Looking for other games with similar role(s).

[Hopkirk]

It seems odd that would be allowed when Beloved Princess is listed as 'explicitly non normal' here: https://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Normal_Game
Looking for other games with similar role(s).

Dude, this isn't a Normal.

Good point.
Got any more? They don't have to be good, they just need to exist.

[Hopkirk]

Skipping N1 would be good given it's looking like a deadline scramble.
Dunn/Fuzzy need more looking at tomorrow.
I can post for about one more hour before. Won't be able to post tomorrow (maybe a naked phone vote, but probably)

[Hopkirk]

Better than no lynch.
VOTE: assembler

[Hopkirk]

I'd vote Fuzzy, but 8 wagons 7 hours before might be a little much.

[Hopkirk]

I'd say maybe 35% scumflip.
Phoneposting btw.

If Assemble flips scum he must have chosen the questionable strategy of crippling his towngame in order to cripple his scumgame.

[Hopkirk]

@Chick: I was light townreading Kokichi towards the end. That’s why I didn’t include him in my list of wagons I’d go for (when there was a wagon starting on him).
Also, any conclusions from 855?

Given the problem with getting a lynch I think scum was on his wagon...... pron wrong but logically ATM this makes the most sense to me

There probably was scum on the wagon given half the players here were on it. Are you saying you dislike people for being 'on' the wagon, or for 'driving' the wagon.
There's also probably scum off the wagon. Voting for impossible lynches to avoid being on a compromise wagon is suspicious too.
Why did you say 'prob wrong'?

Pool I'm looking at: Kop/Mom/Fuzzy/Fitz/Almost50

[Hopkirk]

Missed Dunn.
Kop/Mom/Dunn/Fuzzy/Fitz/Almost50

[Hopkirk]

@Fuzzy: For an example of what I meant last page when I said people pushing lynched that weren't going to happen to avoid being on Assemble: Mom voted Chick without any serious reasoning, or anybody else voting Chick, despite being vocally in favour of an Assemble lynch before. That looks like activily avoiding the wagon.

VOTE: Mom
as before

[Hopkirk]

Solid guilty?
Gamma should claim if so.

[Hopkirk]

^That's a good point that I missed.

[Hopkirk]

Missed Dunn.
Kop/Mom/Dunn/Fuzzy/Fitz/Almost50

Jwhy is Gamma/Yurkin not in this list?
Also why are we not

The second half of the list (Fuzzy/Fitz/Almost50) are lesser scumreads than the first half.
You/Gamma weren't there because you both seemed less likely as a third scum, and I want to look at my 'third scum' reads independently when I get the time.

[Hopkirk]

how is 'i dont believe you' ever an appropriate response as town to someone claiming a guilty on you

I don't believe he's actually claiming a legit guilty on me, he's just saying it cos he thinks I'm scum

I think it's significant you consider him as town fakeclaiming before considering him as scum, despite scumreading him.

VOTE: Gamma
How many votes make you claim?

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Mom

Skimmed around lunchtime. Started new job yesterday. No time to post tonight.

[Hopkirk]

Mod meta suggests no third parties. No SKs I saw in his previously run games, and a preference for pro-town TPS in a discussion thread. I’d say a vig would be more likely than a SK, though oddly flavoured mafia would be most likely.

@Almost50: I don’t really get the conclusions from your gambit. You said specifically at one point that Gamma used a night action- implying tracker. The mafia would know you were fakeclaiming if they knew gamma didn’t use a night action. They wouldn’t know if you were legit if Gamma did use a night action. The problem is that we don’t know, so I don’t see what conclusions can be drawn there. Unless you’re only counting reactions before that point.

If town, JK-Kop probably didn’t get shot because mafia wanted/wants us to lynch him today. Several people joined me in saying they weren’t ready to lynch him yesterday.

[Hopkirk]

VOTE: Gamma Not sure where my vote is, but this is now the best lynch. If this flips Scum (and I sure expect it to) that would clear Kop permanently in my eyes.

If it flips Town though, then we will know by tomorrow if we do have a SK or if that was the Mafia kill flavour and work from there.

The second reason here is not a good reason for a lynch. We'd probably find out if it was a mafia kill after another night anyway, so this amounts to wanting to lynch him to find out information at the end of the day rather than the end of the night.
If Gamma is mafia, lynching him doesn't stop there being two kills.

First reason isn't good either. If Kop is town and looks town (his jailkeep target flips mafia after he pushes them), and he's a protective role, he definitely dies the next night.

Who's down for a Dunn wagon? Dude rode the assemble wagon before town got desperate EOD. He's also voting us today which is beyond lol, also he makes sense as a kokichi killer.

On another scummy note I really didn't like mom jumping off assemble wagon before it went through, looked like scum jumping off known town. Mom's read progressions make little sense.

I believe there is at least 1 scum in these two. I have a third suspect but I'm hanging back to watch.

~ Buttercup

I'm happy with Mom then Dunn.

On another scummy note I really didn't like mom jumping off assemble wagon before it went through, looked like scum jumping off known town. Mom's read progressions make little sense.

Hopkirk already brought this up and Mom said she wouldn't lynch Assemble b/c pr soft claim (which I think perfectly fits with a scum agenda b/c now she can say she has a reason to not vote her buddies)

I'm also really confused that Mom was so town last night but now she's one of your top scumreads.

Not wanting to lynch a 'soft pr claim' while being alone on a wagon the day of deadline is effective support for a NL.

TPG
Nero
Fitz
Chick
Fuzzy
Kop
Mom
Brass/Assemb
Yurin
TNE
Kokichi

There's exactly 1 person missing from this readslist and that's Dunnstral

Yep, notice that I pointed this out myself a few posts later.
A few posts after that I read Dunn as 'neutral at best'.
Later, I had Dunn as scum.

I really don't get what you're trying to imply.

[Hopkirk]

I also didn't like Hop hopping odd the Gamma wagon when it got to 4. Just saying.

You're implying I left because it got to 4.
Hop didn't Hop because it got to 4.
Hop hopped because you said you were fakeclaiming.

[Hopkirk]

I'm not sure how I'm a town leader here. I wanted Mom or Dunn lynched yesterday.

Could Mom and the crazy head explain what they mean?

[Hopkirk]

Mod meta suggests no third parties. No SKs I saw in his previously run games

Did his previously run games have stabbings as a mafia nk flavor?

Upon checking, his previous games all seem to just say someone died at night.
Although this is the only one I could see with flavour: viewtopic.php?p=8372118&user_select%5B% ... 1#p8372118 which mentions 'strangled' as cause of death, but says died at night like the others.

Slightly more likely to be a TP existing than I was thinking, but still think 'flavour' is more likely.

[Hopkirk]

I'm not sure how I'm a town leader here. I wanted Mom or Dunn lynched yesterday.

Could Mom and the crazy head explain what they mean?

You are the most prevalent voice here and nearly no one is questioning your alignment for some reason. Even if you didnt get your preferred lynch you are still in the position to command the gamestate

And these things don't apply to Nero too?

And you are still ignoring the fact that there was support for a chick lynch even though people weren't voting there.

Why are you ignoring that little tidbit?

Because of nobody trying to push Chick (say, bothering to make a case) before deadline when we had to pick someone to lynch. You wouldn't have had time, especially if you'll back off a lynch based on just a softclaim. What'd you have done if Chick claimed four hours before deadline? No ylnched?
And because nobody's pushed Chick today beyond votes.

[Hopkirk]

Like if you think ignoring my reads is the correct way to go then go for it I can't stop you but there's very little in mom's iso that says scum over poor performance cuz new.

Mom isn't new. Her main is older than me, and has around 7k posts.

[Hopkirk]

Tfw gamma is obvscum but town can't be fucked to actually play the game instead of sheeping scum hopkirk on a wagon on a player who hadn't played in 3 years and claimed a role that conditionally guarantees their lynch

Hasn't played in 1 year, not 3.
Why aren't you answering my question about the difference between me and Necro here?

[Hopkirk]

RC should have quit while he was still making sense.

[Hopkirk]

Not sure if you're responding to the second part, but if so it means since there'd still be mafia and SK alive so there'd be two kills then.

[Hopkirk]

Okay but the point is made I think.

And hopkirk your iso is literally not Nero Cain iso so I don't understand why I should be treating you like you're the same? Like that's kind of a garbage thing to say, just because you're both playing at town leader doesn't mean my read on you should be the same.

The things you're attacking me for also apply to Nero. You aren't attacking him whatsoever.

RC should have quit while he was still making sense.

And this is one helluva shitty discredit so

Notice you're completely ignoring the meat of my gamma Dunn reads to discredit me over it (same thing Gamma is doing) and I recognize that it's likely to work because my team won't let me clusterfuck you and kill the problem at the source but

Yeah pretty obvious at this point when both of you are attacking our dissonance and individual heads rather than addressing the content that we've made as a slot.

I don't understand what you mean by you complaining me attacking an individual head. That head is saying different things to the rest of the hydra.
I think the hydra is town. I think one head is currently being bad town. Notice I'm not attacking your hydra, I'm trying to respond to your unclearly reasoned attack on me.

And hopkirk no shit I played with marangal I know who she is thanks you're just handwaving her claim making no sense as scum to push some bullshit about her being experienced when she wasn't a spectacularly gambity player even when she was around and I even vaguely recall her being quite conservative. But sure cherry pick 'oh she has 7k posts!!' like it changes the fact that she's not the type of scum player to make that claim. If we hit evens we speedlynch her but if not? Nah she's 'new'!scummy not really scummy independently

I'm not making a meta argument on someone I played with one time four years ago when I was new to the game.
I'm just refuting that she's new, and your conclusions formed from this point- that she wouldn't make a claim like this.

[Hopkirk]

Let me restate the obvious:

- Kop claims to have jailed Gamma.

- We had one NK that has a different flavour than the "standard" Mafia NK, this hinting (with no certainty) that it might have been a SJ kill.

- If we lynch Gamma and he flips Mafia it confirms Kop as the JK, and confirms we have 2 different killers (actually, it doesn't theoretically confirm the latter, because it could be that Gamma is a Mafioso who didn't perform the kill and another member did, but..)

- If Gamma flips Town Kop isn't really caught scum, as he could also have been telling the truth and (a) We only have a Mafia that jills with knives, or (b) the Mafia kill actually was on Gamma (very unlikely, but still...)

- The other alternative is Gamma flips Town because Kop is actually scum and is setting Gamma up, This one is astronomically unlikely because Kop would be setting himself for a lynch next, but let's say he's counting on getting a mislynch today and is alright with being lynched tomorrow after Mafia does kill again taking us down to 6 vs 2 going into N3, or 5 vs 2 at the start of D4.

- We have to note Kop is unCC'd. There's apparently no other protective in the game which give his claim a higher chance of being legit.

- We have an alternative in No Lynching and waiting for the night to reveal if we do have 2 kills. The problem is if we do then we are doomed because we likely start D3 as 5 vs 3 vs 1 and we need to rely on cross killing AND we have no room for any additional mislynches.

So, LYNCHING GAMMA IS THE BEST OPTION.

If we have 2 killers we must have at least 1 more PR in the game and they will not have to check Gamma (dead) or Kop (will be sorted automatically) so it gives them a better chance to actually catch scum.

If we have only Mafia then we either have a confirmed Townie or a confirmed Mafioso in Kop (and if the latter then we still do have at least one PR bc we can't be all VTs in a Coney Island game).

Can you address the following logic:

-We lynch Gamma and he flips mafia.
-We find out whether mafia exist the following night based on how many kills there are, and the flavour.
-Kop definitely dies at night for being obviously not a scumpartner for Gamma.

-We lynch Gamma and he flips town.
-We find out whether mafia exist the following night based on how many kills there are, and the flavour. This is the same as above.
-The Kop situation isn't resolved in any way.

Like, I don't understand what you're saying about finding out about killers? You do realize a jailkeeper has to target the mafia that submitted the kill to work? You're assuming Gamma 100% submitted the kill.

[Hopkirk]

Can someone explain why lynching Mom is mylo is more effective than lynching her now?
We lose out on associations and if she's scum then we're less likely to lynch her partners.
Lynching her at 8p mylo is the same as no lynch (or worse depending on prs) in regard to numbers. The difference is that mafia choose who dies instead of Mom. I also expect there'll be people in mylo who will still be saying she's town so don't lynch her. It's not a guaranteed lynch.

[Hopkirk]

@Almost: So what's the value in doing it today? I can understand doing it because you think Gamma's scum, but not the setup theory based reasons.

[Hopkirk]

So you agree the other stuff about doing it to see if there's another killer etc doesn't make sense/matter compared to the scumtell?

[Hopkirk]

@Nero cain do you not have a problem with the fact that Hopkirk is repeatedly saying that I can't scumread him because I'm not scumreading you? Is that whose wagon you want to be on?

It's a little cringe.

I will prob not vote Gamma just to spite shitbells.

Except I'm not saying I'm 'exactly the same as Necro' I'm saying I'm the same in the incredibly vague and general things that RC is talking about.
He hasn't exactly mentioned specifics. the broad comments he's made largely apply to both of us, but he framed it as though only I was relevant.

[Hopkirk]

Is nobody else concerned that Fuzzy only has 2 townreads (claimed prs only), and his reads list doesn't really follow him.

[Hopkirk]

I've got zero interest in lynching Mom. It shouldn't really be the topic of discussion if she's telling the truth about her role.

If we believe the flavour indicating possibilities, then that would point to a SK being in the game, and there's the chance that I jailkept scum (Gamma).

Whilst lynching Mom and skipping a night does sound like not a bad risk to take, if she's telling the truth, then we're effectively keeping the scum team at there full potential and being a townie down, then we need to discuss the next lynch the next day, and Gamma is going to be the topic of discussion again that day. And if we don't lynch scum, we are down another townie and then relying on me finding a partner, if incorrect, we could be down a further two townies if the SK doesn't hit scum.

So at this stage, the only real option I see, is lynching Gamma.

This only applies if Mom is town. You're trying to justify not lynching her from the assumption she's town. The problem there if we take that assumption then we'd automatically rule her out anyway since we don't want to lynch town, plus you're making the assumption without good reason.
Plus any town lynch hurts town more. We lose them and the kill target.
And it's not skipping a night, it's delaying one.

[Hopkirk]

If Gamma flips mafia after Chick hamers then I'll be townreading the whole wagon.

[Hopkirk]

Lynchpool after the lynch on Gamma was Dunn/Fuzzy/Mom. Down to Fuzzy or Mom now.
Almost50/Fitz move from light town to hard town.

This is assuming that was a vig and not a SK since I'm talking about reads for the mafia.

[Hopkirk]

Consider the context.
I already had very hard townreads on NC and TPG. Fairly strong townread on Chickadee.
Almost50/Kop being scum with Gamma would be very unlikely so they'd move from slight town and middling scum to strong town.
Havingfitz was a light townread (was having second thoughts on some associations), but his posts on Kop/Gamma made a gamma scumflip make him move up considerably.

The only players not on the wagon were me, Gamma (wagon target), and my top 3 scumreads. That made me feel good about it when I saw it. Would have given intent if you hadn't already.

[Hopkirk]

Actually the whole kill flavour thing makes a SK unlikely.

Plus it makes sense for vig to have shot the jailkept gamma l1. Like I recommended.

[Hopkirk]

Half of my argument for not lynching Yurkin d1 being 'lets wait and see if we've got a vig and if we do the vig should shoot him, but lynching isn't great because no development there'.

[Hopkirk]

Might be worth massclaiming if we have a one or more non vig prs around.

[Hopkirk]

I buy most of that stuff being possible, but I'm leaning towards Fuzzy at the moment.

[Hopkirk]

Yeah, scum me will totally attempt to quicklynch my buddy,: This is why I prefer Fuzzy for scum.

hard town read my other buddy,: Which I've been saying all game really didn't make sense, was especially bad in light of the Kokichi kill, and made you/Dunn likely
bus first buddy again with a cop claim,: bussing a budy with a guilty on them makes sense.
and then just decide I don't want to vote him because he said something that made me think him to be town: Wasn't the guilty retracted by this point?

[Hopkirk]

Well Mom is confirmed town now since either Fuzzy is mafia, or Fuzzy has a town result on her.

[Hopkirk]

I'm happy to go first once everyone, or even just most people, have okayed it.

[Hopkirk]

vote TFL

I just can't trust someone whose name is FuzzyLogic

also I'm claiming....
I am the town x shot potato.....on odd days I can pour sour cream on myself. On even days I can turn myself into French Fries.

Hello everybody.

Reads

Town

Mom- I am pretty sure Momrangal is town based on play. I havent seen anything scummy about her that pings my scumdar
Kop- ( leaning town) - I basing this on his claim of JK . He is lightly reading town for me

null/ not sure

The Powerpuff Girls - (???) The hydra is all over the place. The disorganzations of the hydra is making it hard to read
Gamma Emerald-
Dunnstral
Chickadee
havingfitz

Scum

Almost50
Hopkirk

There just something off about the play of these two. This is this gut feeling but im just getting scum pings from them.

Prob is town but Im going to scum read anyways bc its fu

n
Nero

This + the stuff on Almost50 makes the claim plausible actually.

[Hopkirk]

8 alive with 1 scum, 1 confirmed town who can't die easily, a vig, and probably other stuff, we're in a very good spot.

[Hopkirk]

Despite Fuzzy calling me Hopkin for half the game, I agree it's very odd to not use the given role name (I assume it'd be given).

[Hopkirk]

OP if true.
Pretty hard to falsify results if false I guess. Killing Dunn doesn't make much sense from a scum perspective.
I believe it.

[Hopkirk]

Only a VT here. Made an early comment referencing a line in it as a soft, but the role pm is obviously public.

Want to look at Dunn interactions again before we lynch.

[Hopkirk]

(Fitz/Chick/Nero)
Need to reread.

@Chick: If we don't lynch mafia, and there were 3, there'd be a kill tonight. Although it'd almost definitely be on Fuzzy.

[Hopkirk]

I don't think Nero actually.

[Hopkirk]

Probably Chick.

@Chick: I pick you to claim next.

[Hopkirk]

Chick by far.

[Hopkirk]

Really should have pegged Gamma for definite scum when he said explicitly he didn't want more time for D1 deadline.

Happy to vote Chick.

[Hopkirk]

I think that needs more explaining.

[Hopkirk]

Who else have you checked. What else can you check.