Micro 782: Jester Nightless - Game Over!

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: Not_Mafia

He's a Jester anyway.

But doesn't that mean I shouldn't be voting him?

[mutantdevle]

vanilla jester goon.

[mutantdevle]

Wha?

[mutantdevle]

There can only be one vanilla jester goon.

Oh well sorry, I fake claimed. T’was a reaction test y’see. Everyone passed except Not Know because it is not known how he reacted.

[mutantdevle]

Whoops, accidentally assumed a gender there.

[mutantdevle]

I THINK WE JUST FUCKING LYNCHED HIM.

[mutantdevle]

Well think harder.

[mutantdevle]

That was an RVS vote lol. Almost all RVS votes on not_mafia are due to his obscure play or a joke about his name.

[mutantdevle]

I was under the impression it was still RVS at that point?

[mutantdevle]

I could see Bob being the Jester.

[mutantdevle]

If we're voting to push activity then why not

VOTE: Ellibereth?

Seems kinda odd that you call for activity and vote yet don't vote the person with the least activity.

[mutantdevle]

One of bob or archwing has to be non-town tbh. I’m just worried the non-town player is Jester.

[mutantdevle]

So we’re not lynching cooldog for reads reasons, but rather because it’s mechanically correct to do so?

UNVOTE:

I’m not so sure 2 lynches in a row that are ignorant of reads is the best idea. I mean, cooldog is one of the players I view as scummier anyway, but since he isn’t being wagoned for that reason I’m hesitant to vote.

[mutantdevle]

Intent to hammer if I don’t like cooldog’s reaction to his wagon.

[mutantdevle]

Just hammer to get the game going, who cares if he's jester, scum or town

you realize why caring about one of those three options is kinda important yeah

Yes but anyone being at L-1 without selfhammering is Not Jester and should be hammered.

This post just made me realise that if he is Jester then we have lost either way. There’s nothing to claim and I scum lean him anyway so.... fuck it.

VOTE: Cooldog

[mutantdevle]

Yeah but if they are Jester they were just going to self hammer anyway.

For future days I suggest we should run people up to L-2 and then have 2 people declare intent to vote / hammer.

[mutantdevle]

I just checked and cooldog has been online since being put to L-1 and I posted my intent so we have a possible Jester here ignoring his wagon to get lynched.

[mutantdevle]

Yo, so now that we've mislynched twice can we (collectively) start properly scum hunting now? I'm-a start that for myself with a reads list and go from there:

Town:

Town lean:

Archwing
Bicephalous Bob
Kokichi Oma
Ellibereth

Null:

- - - - - - - - - -

Jester lean:

- - - - - - - - - -

Jester:

ZZZX - - - - - - - - - - ZZZX
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - Bicephalous Bob

Scum lean:

Not Known 15

Scum:

So if I was going to iron my reads out to PoE then I'd say Not Known and ZZZX are mafia with Bob as the Jester. Of which, I am obviously most confident on Not Known so I'm going to vote for them for now.
VOTE: Not Known
They've been throwing their vote round a bit and sheeped both wagons. They also seem strangely adamant that Ellibereth is the Jester. They've also contributed basically nothing to the game which is not only scummy but also something we'd ideally not want in Mylo. Of course, ZZZX has contributed nothing either, but he hasn't been so scummy about it and is simply a lurker.

[mutantdevle]

I’m assuming you are referring to how they knowingly and willingly hammered not_mafia?

If so, why do you think that clears him as town?

[mutantdevle]

You’re saying nk15 is most definitely the Jester?

[mutantdevle]

So yes? Nk15 and not_mafia are the same person? Could be Jester OR town but just not mafia?

Look, I’m not good at the whole guessing thing. I’m someone with a lot of self doubt and I regularly second guess myself, so when you make your thoughts and opinions unclear it really doesn’t work for me and I end up confusing myself. Naturally, I will assume your opinion is that which is most probable. The fallacy there is that what I consider most probable isn’t always correct (obviously). I’d prefer my questions towards you to be about WHY you think something rather than WHAT it is you think. So I’d appreciate if you could be more straight forward with your opinions.

[mutantdevle]

So yes? Nk15 and not_mafia are the same person? Could be Jester OR town but just not mafia?

Look, I’m not good at the whole guessing thing. I’m someone with a lot of self doubt and I regularly second guess myself, so when you make your thoughts and opinions unclear it really doesn’t work for me and I end up confusing myself. Naturally, I will assume your opinion is that which is most probable. The fallacy there is that what I consider most probable isn’t always correct (obviously). I’d prefer my questions towards you to be about WHY you think something rather than WHAT it is you think. So I’d appreciate if you could be more straight forward with your opinions.

[mutantdevle]

Eww crappy WiFi

[mutantdevle]

I think I found scum,
mutantdevle:

Yes but anyone being at L-1 without selfhammering is Not Jester and should be hammered.


This post just made me realise that if he is Jester then we have lost either way. There’s nothing to claim and I scum lean him anyway so.... fuck it.

VOTE: Cooldog

and then, shortly later...

I just checked and cooldog has been online since being put to L-1 and I posted my intent so we have a possible Jester here ignoring his wagon to get lynched.

There is a logical disconnect here.
I guess mutant wasn't hammering out of fear it would bite them back, and then saw me saying "ok" to a hammer without fully thinking through the argument, which is apparent in the second quoted post.
Now, there is definitely no town who thinks like that: mutantdevle isn't town.

Your fallacy here is that scum still won’t wanna lynch the Jester. In fact, scum are going to specifically want to hunt the Jester because they are a mechanical threat to them.

You’ve pointed out a logical flaw that I hadn’t considered. If he had seen the wagon, he would have self voted. That was just something that slipped my mind and is hardly AI aside from showing I’m not thinking like a Jester. Those 2 posts were a few hours apart and I didn’t think to check when I placed the vote.

[mutantdevle]

I think I found scum,
mutantdevle:

Yes but anyone being at L-1 without selfhammering is Not Jester and should be hammered.


This post just made me realise that if he is Jester then we have lost either way. There’s nothing to claim and I scum lean him anyway so.... fuck it.

VOTE: Cooldog

and then, shortly later...

I just checked and cooldog has been online since being put to L-1 and I posted my intent so we have a possible Jester here ignoring his wagon to get lynched.

There is a logical disconnect here.
I guess mutant wasn't hammering out of fear it would bite them back, and then saw me saying "ok" to a hammer without fully thinking through the argument, which is apparent in the second quoted post.
Now, there is definitely no town who thinks like that: mutantdevle isn't town.

Your fallacy here is that scum still won’t wanna lynch the Jester. In fact, scum are going to specifically want to hunt the Jester because they are a mechanical threat to them.

You’ve pointed out a logical flaw that I hadn’t considered. If he had seen the wagon, he would have self voted. That was just something that slipped my mind and is hardly AI aside from showing I’m not thinking like a Jester. Those 2 posts were a few hours apart and I didn’t think to check when I placed the vote.

Caught you.

Yeah but if they are Jester they were just going to self hammer anyway.

For future days I suggest we should run people up to L-2 and then have 2 people declare intent to vote / hammer.

I just checked and cooldog has been online since being put to L-1 and I posted my intent so we have a possible Jester here ignoring his wagon to get lynched.

There are just some MINUTES between those. I think you didn't think that they were Jester or mafia(since you were Mafia) from the start. And took my line as excuse to hammer someone you really read as not jester and thus town. Without really, and wholly checking my argument. Because if you had really checked my argument throughly then you would not have done this.
It is the difference between being a townie and trying to look like a townie scumhunting by going with the arguments without actually scrutinizing them.VOTE: mutantdevle

You are REALLY reaching now. "Those 2 posts were a few hours apart" was referring to 131 & 137 which were time-stamped 8:50 and 10:41. That's almost 2 hours apart from each other. These are the 2 posts you originally quoted and obviously the posts I was referring to. You have directly twisted my words and meaning here to fit your own agenda. The point I was clearly making was that I was not considering when cooldog was last online when I placed the vote. But instead, you decide to retort with "but you made 2 posts that kinda contradict each other". You've already pointed that out. I've already said that this is a simple mistake on my part with my own logical fallacy. How is me being blatantly wrong something scum would do? As scum, I'd have no reason to make such a post. I'm not defending myself there, I'm not arguing a point, I'm not trying to sway anyone's opinion. It is a simple post that has no real impact or meaning to the overall game as cooldog had already been lynched. At most, that post could have been used as an "I told you so!" if cooldog was indeed the Jester. I checked when cooldog had last logged in and voiced my initial thought on it which was blatantly wrong as I clearly hadn't put much thought into it. I simply wasn't thinking properly when I wrote that post and I don't see how being wrong in such a way is AI at all.

I think you didn't think that they were Jester or mafia(since you were Mafia) from the start. And took my line as excuse to hammer someone you really read as not jester and thus town.

So first of all, mafia don't know who the Jester is. Second of all, I had the perfect opportunity to vote cooldog earlier on in the wagon. I could have planted my vote then and there and had been done with it. Why the hell would I wait for the L-1 position to place my vote which is inherently more suspicious? And I wouldn't have needed you as an excuse, a simple hammer would have been fine since the wagon was essentially entirely sheep anyway. I was the only one on the wagon that wasn't voting purely because I thought cooldog wasn't a Jester. I was very clearly cautious of that possibility. But at the same time, I genuinely had a scum lean on him. I had more than enough reason to be on the wagon.

[mutantdevle]

I don't want to discredit you on account of OMGUS so I'm actually trying to read through your argument and make sense of it, but it just doesn't make any.

This is what I understand of your argument:

There is a logical disconnect here.

mutantdevle is wrong

I guess mutant wasn't hammering out of fear it would bite them back,

So this means that his posts made BEFORE he made this wrong statement show that he wasn't worried about cooldog being the Jester.

and then saw me saying "ok" to a hammer without fully thinking through the argument,

And hence used what I wrote as an excuse to hammer without fully thinking through the extent of what I said

which is apparent in the second quoted post.

Which can be proven by how he clearly isn't thinking things through in the second post

Now, there is definitely no town who thinks like that: mutantdevle isn't town.

And town wouldn't do this.


I just don't understand how you are drawing these conclusions. I made the mistake about a Jester ignoring their wagon AFTER I placed my vote, so clearly my vote wasn't influenced by that. Your post was in no way an "ok" to hammer. You never told me to hammer, your post wasn't even directed towards me. My OWN conclusion from what you said was that "if cooldog is the Jester, we are fucked regardless of whether or not I hammer now, so I may as well hammer in order to progress the game and find out whether or not we have just lost the game sooner". So yes, I did think your argument through and that was a conclusion that I reached by myself; unless you are claiming that your intention of making that post was to try and make me think that?

Your main point, as I understand it, is that I was blatantly wrong in an attempt to look townie? Please correct me if I am wrong. I explain why the Jester avoiding the wagon mistake is not AI in my previous post but I can kinda see where you are coming from with the hammering 'mistake'. If you were trying to set up the situation so that I hammered, I could see how you would think that me reaching that conclusion would be scum trying to look town as, to some extent, it was. Every single other person on that wagon was either straight up sheeping or had the opinion that we should lynch whoever isn't Jester regardless of if they are actually scum. I disagree with that mentality but I compromised since it was obviously a popular opinion amongst the town and I had a scum lean on cooldog anyway. However, I'd like to argue that your post in no way conveys that nor encourages me to hammer and if that really was what you were trying to do then it is scummy and manipulative. I also don't see how you don't recognise your own mentality of wanting a lynch that isn't the Jester above lynching scum reads isn't scummy, and might I point out, a mentality that is vastly different from today. Sure, lynching Jester is obviously bad, but I don't see why lynching people just because we think they are NOT the Jester is a good idea, because that essentially means we are lynching town reads.

[mutantdevle]

I'll reply to 172 once I've eaten my dinner.

[mutantdevle]

[Insert massive quotes tree]

You misunderstood me. The posts you referred to were not minutes apart. But your reasoning was obviously FAKE because of these posts minutes apart.
And no, the later portions of a lynch are not always the most suspicious. Scum can push wagons early, after all, even start them. So, if you are scum why didn't you push early?
The answer is easy- you didn't have any sound reasons!
Yes you said that you were leaning scum... but you didn't say why at all!

I apologise for not understanding you properly. Unfortunately, your argument is simply your opinions vs my word and opinion. My reasoning was not fake. Mistakingly thinking that the Jester would avoid posting in the thread at L-1 instead of self-hammering doesn't mean that I don't think we would have lost the game regardless of whether or not I hammered if cooldog was Jester is a fake opinion. If anything, thinking the Jester would avoid the thread at L-1 is a fake opinion since I clearly stated before this I believed they would hammer. However, my comment that his lack of posting in the thread despite having been online was simply an idiotic moment where I posted without thinking. We all have 'blonde moments', it's part of human nature.

As for not having sound reasons, I didn't really need any... Let's look at the votes on the wagon:

VOTE: Cooldog
That one is probably not a jester. We do not want to lynch a jester so let's lynch them.

Foundation. IMO, a scummy reason to vote for someone due to the inherent nature of it involving lynching town read, but obviously the town agrees that we should be lynching people we collectively don't think is the Jester.

Fairly sure cooldog and kokichi aren't jesters so they're good lynches.

raise*

Vote: Cooldog

Agrees with you, so votes too.

Sure, let's get this game moving.

VOTE: Cooldog

No reason whatsoever.

shit. VOTE: CoolDog

L - 1

Again, no reason.

And then finally I vote with the valid reasons that a) if he was the Jester he'd self-hammer anyway and B) I scum lean him which I have previously mentioned. I could have easily joined the sheep brigade by either giving no reason or simply saying I agree with the notion that we should be lynching Jester candidates. I wouldn't have needed anything more than that to blend in. Why, as scum, would I single myself out by having a unique reason to be on the wagon when I could have just used other's and gone unnoticed?

And yes, I never specifically stated why I scum leant them. I haven't explained any of my other reads either, and, in case you haven't noticed, there are quite a few people who either have not even given any reads let alone explained them. I'm not the only person who hasn't explained all of my reads and, typically, I don't tend to unless I'm asked. I'm an ask-and-you-shall-receive kind of player. If you ever want to know something from me, all you gotta do is ask.

[mutantdevle]

Ehh, I don't think I support an Elli lynch.

zzzx sounds much better, unless anyone would like to argue that they are a lurking Jester?

[mutantdevle]

Thank you for your very insightful post. You have successfully swayed my opinion.

[mutantdevle]

Lol you were already voting for me...

[mutantdevle]

VOTE: ZZZX
Maybe they might start making posts of substance now?

[mutantdevle]

Yeh, you keep saying that but, like, where’s the substance?

I’ve responded to your initial accusations which you have yet to refute, a clear indication that you can’t backup your opinions, and now you say “I am pretty sure now” as though I’ve done something since that convinced you fully of your opinion. We’re you not convinced before? If so then what was your whole ‘ha, gotcha!’ about? And what is it that I’ve since done?

You can’t just say your opinion and expect people to agree. You have to state your case each time you make accusations and actually persuade people of your opinions. Not doing so just leaves others to do the work for you and is inherently scummy.

[mutantdevle]

What is extra concerning now that you posted an intent to vote ZZZX before, but avoided voting until someone else started this wagon.

Lol, that's just how I play. Any old fool can 'start' a wagon by simply placing a vote. But you've REALLY started a wagon when you are convincing others to vote. I don't see the point in trying to get an individual lynched if no one agrees with you, so I convince before I act. I'm also known to occasionally have very bad reads (eg. sometimes you could flip my reads lists upside down so that they are more accurate), so having others vote up my reads before I do is a good self-indication for me that I'm not being a total moron. And I don't mean voting them up as in they do all the work for me, all the while I'll still be pushing and tunnelling where I see fit.

[mutantdevle]

I am pretty sure that you know that they are a risk(jester) but see them as the only good counterwagon to yourself.

- All scum reads are inherently a risk of being a Jester instead, doesn't mean we shouldn't be voting them since the only alternative for such lynches is town reads.

- A counter wagon to 2 votes... 1 of which was blatantly sheeping from someone who is likely either a Jester or scum trying to pose as a Jester? Had I received more votes or had more people expressing their willingness to join the wagon I would have accepted that you could have seen my wagon as having any momentum.

Additionally we had this crap:

You’re saying nk15 is most definitely the Jester?

when it should have been clear that not mafia meant no idea if jester or town.
and then you went even more idiotic:

So yes? Nk15 and not_mafia are the same person? Could be Jester OR town but just not mafia?

Look, I’m not good at the whole guessing thing. I’m someone with a lot of self doubt and I regularly second guess myself, so when you make your thoughts and opinions unclear it really doesn’t work for me and I end up confusing myself. Naturally, I will assume your opinion is that which is most probable. The fallacy there is that what I consider most probable isn’t always correct (obviously). I’d prefer my questions towards you to be about WHY you think something rather than WHAT it is you think. So I’d appreciate if you could be more straight forward with your opinions.

All of that looks like forced content instead of genuine scumhunting.

Hello, I'm mutantdevle. Sometimes I can be very idiotic due to constantly overthinking and confusing myself by simultaneously seeing multiple meanings behind practically everything and then struggling to conclude what the intended meaning was due to intense self-doubt and second guessing. Nice to meet you *holds out hand*.

[mutantdevle]

(Also obligatory pointing out that not_mafia is dead and you mean Ellibereth)

[mutantdevle]

We only have 26 hours left :/

[mutantdevle]

Wow holy shit Elibereth, you’re good.

[mutantdevle]

I can see why, as a Jester, you’d be able to sus Kokichi, but what gave me away?

[mutantdevle]

Is it possible the scum PT could be made public? I sent you a PM too :3