Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[northsidegal]

VOTE: jaydragonking

Let's not have a repeat of 711, shall we?

[northsidegal]

Any reason you're pushing for a wagon on me, math?

[northsidegal]

Luca voting me for my streak is funny and probably NAI, North as well, so that's fine. But Mutant's entrance and his little story and subsequent self-vote makes me feel like he's going to play off the fact that his last game with like four of us ended in us having a meta on him to townread such crappy behavior from him. I elect to not let that happen.

what kind of "crappy behavior" are you talking about? you knew mutant was town in open 711, are you saying that you thought he was scummy regardless?

Basically, the earlier I can sort NSG, the more comfortable I'll feel about the gamestate. Probably the greatest balance between "player I can respect" and "player I won't get paranoid of".

what do you hope to get out of me from an rvs wagon? if you're looking for any of the "insight" or such that i think you've talked about before that you see from town!me, there's really nothing to respond to from an rvs wagon. why not just let things play out more naturally?

[northsidegal]

Oh, Welcome Almost! Your just in time for the fuckery that will be page 3!

Oh, love that the Moderator literally links the post in which the person voted. Makes it much easier to fact check.

Fact check what?

Well obviously most people explain their reasoning for voting someone in that same post, so linking the post with the vote makes it so you can't really have an excuse to not look back at it.

This post is meh. You're acting like this is a great advantavge for town so we can "hold people to their word" but in reality, you can iso someone and it would literally be more informative.

pretty lame thing to hop on jay for – he was just responding to a question that gamma asked him.

Well at least I'm trying to start up a conversation here about topics that are game related.

And for the question about Mutant, I do the same exact thing as scum that I did once as town. I have no doubt in my mind he would do the same.

Right, you voting him has no basis then.

You look like you're trying to play the same way you did last game as town, so that means you've got to be scum... what?

explain what's wrong about that scumtell? if someone

looks

like they're specifically trying to

imitate

a town meta moreso than it seems like they're naturally following a town meta, why doesn't that make them scummy?

[northsidegal]

Really, complaining about the game being slow when it hasn't even been 12 hours since the day started? am i getting geriatric? i think the pace is fine.

If I was mafia, and since they had so much prep time, I think they would DEFINITELY have a cohesive strategy going on, all following the same plan. So would it be fair to assume they at least talked enough to probably talk themselves out of fake claiming in such a situation? At the very least I know they're not letting the Backup Jailkeeper or the RoleCop do such a Gambit, but instead let the Goon do it.

elaborate on this? are you saying scum planned some kind of bus? otherwise, i don't think scum have that much control over the lynch to where they could choose to stop it from landing on the role cop or the jailkeeper. so what are you saying?

[northsidegal]

uh, what is 75?

[northsidegal]

VOTE: jmo

Feel better about my vote being here.

[northsidegal]

just in general i don't think there's anything mutant has done so far that's "horrible", but from what i've seen of him he generally gets scumread early for doing weird stuff. open 701 it was flat out asking someone if they were cop on like page 2 (which i nearly got him lynched for).

[northsidegal]

for jumping on someone already under pressure for what seems to me to be something relatively minor.

pedit – everyone there is null right now with the caveat that i'm pretty confident that the bottom two will be easy to sort as this day progresses.

[northsidegal]

Wow, like 10 pages behind. Noticed someone mention a wagon on me?

[northsidegal]

@5. northsidegal: I've recently checked a scum game of yours (Pick Your Power, was it?) and you seemed active enough.

not sure what you're trying to say here?

@math – from what i've gleamed from what luca's saying on this page you're scumreading me. explain that? (still haven't started catching up)

[northsidegal]

wow i hate people scumreading me when i get busy. check my activity across site, people.

[northsidegal]

Northsidegal's 29 is too nervous. What wagon? On Page2?

how is it "nervous"? also, what wagon? how about the one mathdino explicitly mentioned a few posts before that:

Caaaan I interest you in a NSG or Aneninen mini-wagon so your vote isn't doing nothing?

[northsidegal]

Going on.

The Mathdino-Northsidegal 101–102 was weird. Why those names? And what sort of answer was that?

"everyone there is null right now with the caveat that i'm pretty confident that the bottom two will be easy to sort as this day progresses."

what's your problem with that response?

Jmo16mla's 110

"Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!"

– that's a terrible idea. Oh wait, it is a good idea for scum who want to rolefish.

it would only truly be rolefishing if someone declared intent to hammer, which i don't often see happen with early game wagons and anyone declaring intent on one would most likely be met with pretty quick unvotes / votes on them. with that in mind i think this accusation rings hollow.

Mutantdevle's 167:

"Btw, does anyone know if it's Anen's meta to lurk?"

Oh My Gods. A whole day or something like that without my posts. Terrible!

yeah, i know how that feels. seriously, is it so impossible to believe that i'd have reasons for not posting other than just "lol she's scum"?

[northsidegal]

First line I can agree with. Second not sure what informs it?

what? why do

you

agree with that? since when were you aware of my meta?

[northsidegal]

Mathdino and others who have played with him: is this his townplay? Holy sh--

yes, mutant plays kind of contrary to typical site meta. people say that it's a "scummy" style, but i don't really think so – speaking from experience in open 701, he really only did one scummy thing and was obvtown (i felt) for the rest of the game. same with open 711.

can you elaborate on what you don't like about what he said there?

So. You were following the game and this was the most important thing to add?

this is a good observation, townleaning you for it.

[northsidegal]

Sure let's try this:

VOTE: northsidegal

You've seen nsg I don't like this

i was thinking the same thing, actually – creature was actually really the first and kind of only one pushing me as scum before the guilty in 701. he recognized my scum meta before i really had a scum meta. (really don't mean to turn this game into "recount everything about previous open games" but it's just come up a lot)

creature, why'd you vote me here?

[northsidegal]

townreading gamma for the series of posts at the top of page 13.

[northsidegal]

northsidegal is actually scum.

DOUBLY so if Creature turns out to be town through the day. Creature's read was right on point. I'll give NSG a couple chances to explain to me why exactly I think that.
And yes, this is a test, the response may very well affect this read. Please do actually explain why I, personally, Mathdino, am scumreading you. I wanna see if you're seeing the same things.

VOTE: northsidegal

oh, so this is where it started. my guess is that it's mainly my activity, but if i had to guess i'd also say it's probably because of my questioning / vote of jmo.

[northsidegal]

HOT TAKE: NSG is locktown. Good to know, moving on then.

Jay isn't scum with mutant. Nice to know I guess.

northsidegal is actually scum.

DOUBLY so if Creature turns out to be town through the day. Creature's read was right on point. I'll give NSG a couple chances to explain to me why exactly I think that.
And yes, this is a test, the response may very well affect this read. Please do actually explain why I, personally, Mathdino, am scumreading you. I wanna see if you're seeing the same things.

VOTE: northsidegal

FoS Mathdino

flip floppy as hell. Tell me the previous post was a joke and I'll get off your back.
VOTE: northsidegal
Actual vote.
Also feel like Jay is town for taking the effort to separate informative lynches from gut lynches, looks towny in my opinion.
Also, I feel like a possible motive for Almost being so passive that if he was active in this scenario, people would become suspicious that he wasn't NKed(since he can't NK himself).
Thoughts?
Pedit - Gamma, how is Aneinen trying to discredit here? Who/what is he trying to discredit?

fos-ing mathdino while voting me seriously in the same post? could you elabroate on the mentality behind that, and on your vote on me?

[northsidegal]

I would actually love to go into that because I'm pretty proud of my play this game, but only when I actually start canvassing for the lynch.

I'm not like 100% confident enough in this read to speedlynch her without a reaction.

That was half a lie; she didn't really explain how to read her, but we went over our respective scumgames and she more demonstrated that I COULD read her. Honestly I think we've just seen each other too much at this point. I don't expect her to be the easiest sort ever for others but I'd like to think I can gutread her, even if she's only posted however few times.

Do you have other reads at this point?

Math, i'm going to say this right now, and it applies to anyone who thinks they can metaread me off of the first few posts in a game, now or in the future – you're only going to get burned. Keep going down this path and one of these days i'll have a good start as scum and will get false cleared or one of these days i'll get lynched as town early for just having a weak rvs. It's already happened to RC before. I honestly don't really enjoy the prevailing conception about my meta so far (i think it's just a function of me rolling town so much more often than scum) and so i'm waiting for the game where it's disproven – i'd rather that not be this game where my town flip is what disproves it.

[northsidegal]

@Everyone voting me – please inform me of what your mathdino read is. Doesn't have to be detailed, you can condense it to a few words, even.

First line I can agree with. Second not sure what informs it?

what? why do

you

agree with that? since when were you aware of my meta?

I was aware of it since Gest idea

hm, okay. don't recall you bringing it up beforehand here, will have to check anything upick for that. i also don't really feel like my scumgame was that bad in greater idea, i think i just got bad circumstances really.

[northsidegal]

i don't actually feel like creature has obvtowned yet but that would mean that he's putting in far more effort than usual as scum, i think. if he is scum, i'd think that almost certainly points to a scumteam that's aware of his meta and talked pregame specifically making a specific effort for him to try to subvert it.

@A50 – the timing of my posts is really as meaningful as you're making it out to be.

[northsidegal]

i will never understand the mentality of voting of wagoning people who haven't posted in a while. unless you have reason to believe that they're active lurking (ie looking at the thread but not posting), it's likely not going to make the person post any sooner. there's the argument that it "puts pressure" on people for when they come back, but wouldn't you gain a more natural read from people by simply observing what they do when not under pressure? like, people sheeping onto a "pressure" wagon provides an avenue for scum to engage with the game in a very easy way – they don't really have to come up with anything of their own, they can just respond to the pressure on them. i'd also think that, even if the pressure wagon

was

on scum, it would be less likely to get scum lynched – people might be inclined to unvote after the person comes back, because afterall they were only on the wagon for pressure in the first place.

pedit – let's see here.

[northsidegal]

@NSG: Benefit of the doubt here. Why did you not seem to give a shit that I was locktowning you early on?

because i believe that

you

believe that you can read me based off of three posts. yeah, of course i saw the similarity to anything upick – the thing is, i expect you to do the same thing as town. so... it didn't really factor into my read of you at all.

[northsidegal]

like, it's really as simple as that i think

you

think you can read me from three posts. i know that RC thinks that. so it wasn't really anything out of the ordinary? i also don't really feel like my play was anything out of the ordinary like it was in anything upick where there was a disconnect between

my own meta read of myself

based off of a few posts and what you were saying.

[northsidegal]

NSG, rather than (justified) paranoia of me townbinning her, instead glossed over the townreads on her, went inactive (while site active, which makes me think she allowed herself to be townread), and instead is assuming that I'm activity telling her (I'm not), and going after me in response, which strikes me as not how she would genuinely respond to this scumread.

like i said, in anything upick i think my reaction made sense. here, i would expect what you did from either alignment. i also wasn't really that site active during this time?

i'm also not going after you – quote where you think that is, because if you're thinking of what i think you're thinking of, just wait for my explanation on that.

[northsidegal]

I don't think I've ever pulled something like that as town, though. In Marked For Death, I locktowned you because you overtly/cheekily reaction tested me in a way that I thought helped the gamestate. All the other completed games in which I've tried to read you specifically as town off three posts were scumgames.

I'll reevaluate your ISO/your play as time goes on and get back to you.

i mean, i guess you've never really done it as town but that doesn't change that i believe (or at least, believed) that you would. also,

According to the site rules I may not explain this.

---

In the meantime:
- Gonna need scumreads from you. You're town, I'm town, who scum?
- Is Creature playing his scumgame, or is he just wrong town here?

– not really feeling anyone as overtly scummy so far.

i don't actually feel like creature has obvtowned yet but that would mean that he's putting in far more effort than usual as scum, i think. if he is scum, i'd think that almost certainly points to a scumteam that's aware of his meta and talked pregame specifically making a specific effort for him to try to subvert it.

[northsidegal]

right, so you were thinking of what i thought you were thinking of. i will say that that question is less about you than everyone else.

why do you think, going off of me being town, scum would be pushing back against you?

[northsidegal]

i don't actually feel like creature has obvtowned yet but that would mean that he's putting in far more effort than usual as scum, i think. if he is scum, i'd think that almost certainly points to a scumteam that's aware of his meta and talked pregame specifically making a specific effort for him to try to subvert it.

@A50 – the timing of my posts is really as meaningful as you're making it out to be.

*raises hand*

not sure what this is supposed to mean.


i've seen newbie scum do exactly what pintu did in 591 and some of the justifications for his reads makes me think that it's a similar situation to then. scumleaning there for that, seeing how things play out should help solidify this read.

[northsidegal]

The expression mini-wagon is pigeon poop in itself so I was ignoring that.

you didn't explain how it was "nervous".

it would only truly be rolefishing if someone declared intent to hammer, which i don't often see happen with early game wagons and anyone declaring intent on one would most likely be met with pretty quick unvotes / votes on them. with that in mind i think this accusation rings hollow.

Not really.
Quite a lot of players tend to claim when they're at L–1 without a hammer intent because lol-hammering is always a chance. Actually, there are a couple of players who claim before reaching L–1. Especially if they think the wagon itself is terrible. I myself did that before, at least once.

let's go back to your original point. you said that jmo's:

Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!

was scummy because scum care about rolefishing and getting people to L-1 accomplishes that. did you notice that the person he was talking about getting to L-1 was... himself?

what's more, do you think that jmo, as scum, with a plan to get people to L-1 to rolefish, would just openly say in the thread how satisfied he was at that? the fact that he mentioned that makes me think that, even if he were scum, he didn't have any specific rolefishing plan in mind – if he did, he would've likely taken care to

not

mention it. guilty conscience, and all that.

[northsidegal]

This: "I'm being criticised for wanting to be different to what's considered normal? Story of my life." In my mind it gets translated to: "Just because I look scum that does not mean you should scumread me. Even if I'm scum."

do you think it's impossible that that's actually how he feels as town? if not, do you think it's more likely to come from scum than town? if so, why? if not, then why treat it as a scumtell?

[northsidegal]

Pedit: this seems somewhat like a 180 on a scumpartner, does anyone feel the same or am I just biased here?

who were you referring to, with this?

townreading paradox so far, by the way.

[northsidegal]

It means I'm one who would try to fix Creature's scum meta
Also it seems you're scumreading Pintu via Ms Marpleing? Alright, can't really follow that myself but I can understand it

okay – why admit to saying that you'd do that, as scum?

what is "ms marpleing"?

[northsidegal]

I was never voting for you, but I had stated intent to vote so I guess this question is directed towards me too. Math is my strongest town read - everything about his play screams town to me. I think the main point to suggest he is scum is the notion that his gambits aren't legit and just scum being flip-floppy with their reads. I've never seen scum Math, but his town play is incredibly strong IMO (even if a little arrogant) and he doesn't strike me as someone who'd make such stupid mistakes as scum. I don't believe he is backtracking or flailing on anything, they are genuine gambits.

what kind of "mistakes" are you referring to?

There's my answer for your question partially, if you still care. Earlier I had a townread on Mathdino, because I thought his whole argument with Luca was mostly about playstyle differences.

what about the argument being over playstyle differences than anything actually scummy made math town, to you?

Right now I don't know what to think. He posts a lot and I must admit I haven't always read everything from him. Yet he could be scum too. However, I wouldn't lynch him on Day1. If he's town we'll gain a lot from his reads later as long as he's alive. If he's scum, I don't think he'd get to LyLo because sooner or later it would turn out that his reads are pigeon poop.

i gut scumread this

a lot

.

[northsidegal]

let's play a game, everyone – someone tell me the difference between this post:

Spoiler:

Well well well, let's start the hunting.
About GDP: too much scum coming from him. Added to what I said before, post 298, where he tell us his lynch pile, is basically what a somewhat townread at that point, Ghostlin, said. This was noted by Querty a few posts later, and I really like that he did, because is a fair point, and I was having trouble reading him (Querty) until that point. GDP also puts in L-1 over sheep and Red in different occasions without giving explanations beforehand.

About Cabd: there's a post where Querty said something fantastic about this game: "pizza is lurking and eat each other's livers...". Yeah, pretty much, this game is nuts, everyone is hitting everyone, so is difficult to see between this mess who is scum. And then there is Cabd, the IC. He doesn't need to interact so much because we are in page 31 on day one, that's a great newbie game! But, as Querty said about Pizza, a great strat in a game with this much interaction is staying away from it. I get it: you don't want to engage too much in a Newbie Game, but you shouldn't be the one saying "sometimes I get misslynched for this", that sounded like "don't lynch me because I'm not engaging". If you are town and people is suspecting about you for not engaging, then... Engage, haha.

About Jodaxq: I don't really like her playstyle. She does a lot of questions, and that creates a lot of content for reading people, but where is your own content so we can read you? You just ask everyone about their actions or say if you like what they say or not. Would love to see your actual readings right now. That being said, I think your questions have played a significant role for town, so I'm inclined to believe that you are in fact trying to help.

About Cheeky: I like what I see from her, but not that much for townreading her. I just read 31 pages and can't really remember something that caught my attention, just a general idea about her being townish.

About Querty: as I said, first pages I thought he was being scummy, but after he stood in front of GDP, I really think he's town. Sure, it's really easy to make a case on a player who is being attacked by everyone, but Querty gave thoughtfull readings about him, not just repeating what someone else was saying with other words.

About Ghostlin: same as Cheeky, but better. Loved his first posts, I think all my reads were really close to what he said. I'm not implying that if he reads the same as me, he is conftown; what a mean is, his posts made sense to me. A lot.

About Gamma: Sorry, but you have in your bag Red's playing. That's not necessarily bad, tho: I read Red like a scummy town, and when you got in I read you as town too. But, as I said, Red makes you a null for me now.

About Brassherald: didn't really like Sheep's playstyle, and you are too early to read, so let's make it a null.

TL;DR:
Townreads: Ghostlin and Querty
Townleans: Cheeky and Jodaxq
Null: Brassherald and Gamma
Scumreads: GDP and Cabd

and this one:

Ok guys, I've tried to be as fast as I can, but this game is much more fast paced that I thought it was. I've been reading though, and I have some thoughts I want to share. I think the best way I can do this post without using a whole page is doing a summary of my reads and then a spoiler with bigger and better explanations.

First of all, my townreads (in this order): Luca, GoldenParadox and Mathdino.

Spoiler: Townreads

I'm now very sure Luca and Mathdino are just obsessed with each other and their 1v1 is more like egos fighting than scumhunting (or townhunting, whatever you like more). Luca is my most townread now because he could have backed off when the 1v1 was over, but he went for it again. Why doing that when there's much more easier targets to mislynch than Dino? And from Dino's perspective, 1v1ing Luca is a bad idea too; Luca's like a bulldog, he bites and doesn't release his prey no matter what. Getting in an argument with him, with how agressive and persuasive he is, is certainly a bad idea as scum, unless he really loves smelling his own farts and think he can get towncred by "winning" the 1v1, which is a possibility, but when Luca flips green (if), that towncred would do a 180 turn. I'm only giving less towncred to Dino because of the possibility of trying to be the townleader as scum, something I try to do when I play IRL, but he's nowhere near in my suspects radar. PARANOIA MODE ON: if Luca and Dino are both scum and they are trying to put themselves against each other as antagonists, I already lost this game. PARANOIA MODE OFF.
tl;dr: this 1v1 reminds me a lot of Death Note; you just want to be right for the sake of it. The difference is that this is not a Light Yagami vs L, but an L vs L, which would be an interesting anime if you ask me.

About GoldenParadox: something I noted from our last game where he was scum is that he reacts very poorly to pressure and being scumread, and he also tried to mislead town with a lot of going all over the place. Here's different: much more measured reads, and he's criticizing Dino for something he did a lot in that game (Newbie 1849). "Hey, I do tend to be flip floppy when I'm scum, and Dino is being flip floppy... Maybe he's scum!". It's not uncommon to do that reasoning, even if it's bad reasoning. Also, Golden is the only player I have read in many other games, and if I remember correctly, I always got his alignment right except for one time where he fakeclaimed being VT. He's not a good scumplayer; at this point of the game I would already noticed something weird, but there's nothing I find scummy in him. He's behind Luca only because I need more posting from him to be completely sure.

Townleans: NSG, Jay and Creature (in this order, too).

Spoiler: Townleans

I need more content from NSG to sort her out, but I'm giving her towncred for her reaction to her wagon, specifically to her confrontation with Dino. NSG not posting doesn't tell me anything bad about her; on the contrary, if she was scum, she would be worried being in the same game with Dino, knowing that he would possibly go over her to sort her at the beginning of the game. Between "I don't want to be sorted by Dino, I will just lay down and wait to see what happens" and "I'm busy", I'm inclined to believe the latter than the former.

My townlean on Jay is abstolutely a gut read and because of the reads on her of more experienced players than me. I think she hasn't contributed a lot, BUT her lynchpool post in 312 seems thoughtful and real.

I have two main reasons to believe Creature is town, but both aren't good enough to townread him and I'm not trusting myself in this: first, a lot of players have said he is a bad scum player, so the louder players (like Dino) would have sorted him out at this point of the game or at least begin pushing him. I know Dino wanted to do a NSG vs Creature wagons, but he pushed NSG instead of Creature and he hasn't gone over Creature even when he came back with a lot of content; the second reason is a longshot and I preffer not to discuss it for now.

Nulls: jmo, Almost50 and Aneninen (again, in that order).

Spoiler: Nulls

I had to ISO jmo to remember why I gutread him as scum, and he got out of that read with two posts: 240 and 253. I can't see scum motivation to explain why two players can't be on the same team, and his push on Gamma seemed real. The problem is, he hasn't given much more content, and he could be fencing now that "loud" players are townreading him, but he's closer to a townlean right now. Almost too troll to read, I don't know his meta so there isn't much content to know what he's going for. Aneninen, on the other hand: I really don't like his playstyle; I've seen other players doing what he's doing and I always gutfeel they're scum. He makes long posts with a lot of doubt of everyone else's posts, but doesn't really engage with anyone, even when he has a lot of scumleans and scumreads. Feel like he makes a lot of content but not trying to solve the game. BUT, as I said, I always think this is scummy, and I've read games where I was really wrong about this type of players, so I think I'm a little biased.

Scumlean: mutant.

Spoiler: mutant

His "I don't conform to site meta. I usually look more an more townie" still seems scummy to me. I agree with Creature saying he seems fence sitting, his posts aren't that thoughtful, and saying he's interested in jumping on NSG wagon without really doing it was weird as hell. There's only one reason I'm not scumreading him: I feel like his reads are outdated, so I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt until I see where is he now.

Scumread: Gamma.

Spoiler: Gamma

I have to talk about myself first to explain this: If I were someone else, I would be at least nullreading myself for how I have played at this point. I'm lurking a lot, have some awkward posts, tend to post only if I'm being alluded, and this is completely different to my playstyle in Newbie 1849: there, I was giving thoughtful reads, catching up every time I could, going all over the place and, in summary, helping to solve the game. Because of this, I expected at least a call for attention from Gamma, but he instead went to defend me telling everyone I'm new to the site and shouldn't be pushed if I'm inconsistent or not being gamesolvey. I felt pocketed, as he pocketing the newbie who said some posts ago that was having trouble with his reads and would "follow the leader" if necessary. Pocketing a newbie seems an easy task, and implies having two votes instead of one when an important decision must be done.

I'm doing this long post mostly because I fell behind this game as there has been a lot of meta readings and strategy aroun this kind of reads, so there's nothing much I could talk about during those conversations. With this, I'm expecting to be engaged so I can contribute with more content and help everyone sort me and help me sorting everyone.

[northsidegal]

The second one is infinitely more readable and actually apart of this game?

what makes you say that?

[northsidegal]

1. That was from my first game and didn't know how to do basic stuff like quoting and using spoiler tags?

Hey guys! I'll catch up and give my thoughts as soon as I can. Also, I've never posted in this type of forum, so I don't know how to do some basic stuff like quoting, soooo... Sorry if my posts are a little messy at first.

My first post ever in this forum, how sweet I was
2. I was catching up because I replaced someone else so there was a lot of content to evaluate and from a third person perspective as I wasn't involved from the begining of the game?
3. I'm scum trying to imitate my towngame, or maybe I'm town... playing my towngame?

I really don't see your point. Enlight me

my point was that in that first post was concise and felt honest – you didn't really ramble on. take your cheeky read there, for example – you just come out and say that you can't really remember what made her towny, but you got that feeling reading through. in your post this game, though, a lot feels kind of overexplained, as if made with a specific effort to say a lot (which i would presume would come from a desire to appear towny).

it's not a huge point, i just wanted to illustrate the feeling i was having with regard to seeing a post like that from newbie scum before.

Guessing you mean the "readable" part?

By that, I can easily tell that not only is the second one formatted better then the first, and it has very little fluff. I didn't click the source of the first one, but it just seems more scummy?

Am I looking for the fact that he has grown a lot, a difference in his nature of playing from jokes to serious, or congratulate his improved grammar?

yeah, nevermind on my question to you – i misinterpreted what you were saying.

[northsidegal]

No, it's not impossible, but yet again, I've seen scum saying such things with the same meaning: "I'm not scummy, it's just my playstyle". (This is especially common whenever scum get too many scumreads very early. When there are no real cases to respond to and no low-hanging fruit townies to push yet.)

you didn't actually answer the more important part:

if not, do you think it's more likely to come from scum than town? if so, why? if not, then why treat it as a scumtell?

I'm not sure if I can comprehend this question well.

basically, why does their argument being about playstyle differences actually make them town?

If you need more explanation, here it comes.
There are players who appear to be hard-working enough (or whom I know well) to make me think they could have excellent reads later. However, there's always a chance that they're scum. You may know the feeling: effort is not an alignment tell.
Mathdino's one of these.
In case of town-Mathdino, the more he lives the more useful reads he'll give. Lynching him because he may be scum hurts town a lot.
In case of scum-Mathdino, we'll have more information later. There will be flips, which means: associations. Flips will sooner or later reveal whether his train of thoughs were (and is) genuine or made up by scum.

Generally said: I think the difference between Day1 and Day2 is much bigger than the difference between Day2 and any later Day. Let's say, for example, I'll get lynched on Day1. No matter that I haven't managed to get too many reads, after my flip you'll know that my posts came from a townie. Also, the fact of the flip tells us a lot. Why did I get lynched?

do you make this point about players often? if so, could you just list some games where you remember doing this? you don't have to link me to the post itself or anything.

[northsidegal]

I think the accusations against you were baseless, so I fought against them. Honestly it might have been a stretch to call you a townread then but w/e

I'll have to sort you again, this was the exact reply I was waiting from you.
UNVOTE: Gamma Emerald

this is really all it took to get you to unvote? before you were saying that you couldn't see him as anything other than scum.

[northsidegal]

going ranger-style. don't necessarily read it as town to scum with null in the dead middle, it's just ordered.

{nsg}
{Creature}
{mutantdevle, TheGoldenParadox}
{JaydragonKing}
{Mathdino, Gamma Emerald}
{jmo16mla, Almost50, Luca Blight}
{Aneninen, Pinturicchio}

[northsidegal]

And why am I so far down

your

list, NSG?

I notice you haven't spoken about me all game.

like i said, don't consider it strict town to scum with null in the middle. i'd say that your question is more correctly framed as "why aren't i up on that list"? and the answer to that is that i didn't feel like the ISOing you were doing just earlier misrepresented people at times and was nitpicking / framing things as suspicious or scummy that i don't actually think are scummy. i'll quote things specifically in a second.

going ranger-style

Speaking of Ranger, it's been like forever since I saw her play here. Where is she?

Also, how dare you not have me in your top 2 tiers already?

i think mastina tends to stick to modding more, now

[northsidegal]

Gonna do some ISO'ing, starting with

Anen

...

177 - Most of his observations here are NAI/pointless. For example, he says jmo is right about 54, but why is this a relevant thing to point out?

i would say that many of the things he points out or questions that he asks

are

alignment-relevant, or at least open the door for discussion that is alignment relevant. what's more, he's sharing his thoughts. you give his comment about 54 as an example of something that's not relevant to point out – especially early in the game, is giving your thoughts on something (in this case, agreeing with a read) ever not a relevant thing to say?

250 - Another quote wall with little content.

i don't think it's fair to say that this one has "little content". i think really the only non-content lines here are the ones about "static meta" and the fairy thing. everything else i think is game relevant.

261 - Anen votes Gamma mainly for the fact he didn't vote me immediately upon suspecting me due to not knowing what the VC was. I feel Anen pushes this point a bit too hard here - it's weird but not exactly a huge scumtell.

I don't think this is an accurate interpretation of why anen was voting gamma. sure, the vote thing was part of it, but as for the "main" reason, anen had this to say:

Your whole catch-up was about producing content-looking posts without any scumhunting behind. You picked a couple of things, and made up a couple of reads.
Scum do such posts.

also have similar things to say with regards to the mutant iso, thought i'd post this individually instead of doing both in one.

[northsidegal]

What?? Mastina IS Ranger???? I've been on this site for almost 28 months now and I never guessed it or even suspected it!!!

i don't actually know that, i've just heard some people say it – i was just joking.

[northsidegal]

1. He said jmo is right about the mod's vc links not being important. How is that a useful thing to point out?

He agreed with jmo that elsa's post about the mod links was "meh" (i took the underlying assumption to be that it was lamist). that's agreeing with one person's read on another.

i mean, sure – i can agree with you that it's not exactly game-changing, but do you think it's something that he

shouldn't

have shared if that's what he was thinking?

2. Game-relevant maybe, but I don't think he's doing a whole lot in that post.

he's giving reads and asking questions. you said that there's "little content", but i really just don't see how.

3. I disagree; Gamma's vote on me is what prompted Anen's vote.

gamma's vote may be what prompted it, but i don't think it's accurate to say that the

reason

for the vote was gamma's vote. i'd say the reason for the vote was what he described.

You accuse me of

'nit-picking'

but I feel you're doing the same to me here.

you asked me to explain your positioning – this was the reasoning, a general feeling i got reading through your iso cases and checking the posts myself. are you saying that my read on you itself is nitpicking or just what i'm presenting?

[northsidegal]

how is giving examples of how i believe that your interpretation of other people's posts were inaccurate "nitpicking"? is there some other method to giving examples that you would call not nitpicking?

[northsidegal]

also are you guys dense
the fact that aneninen has been the top wagon for days on end now with literally no one picking up the bait almost ensures that he's scum

what makes you frame it as "nobody picking up the bait" when it seems equally plausible to me that scum could be complacent with that being the default end-of-day wagon?

thought i had reading most recent pages. one second.

[northsidegal]

@math can you psot a votecount?

or @mod, i guess.

[northsidegal]

i think 1054 is pretty towny and that a jay wagon right now wouldn't really be based on anything solid. like, i agree that he has a point – as far as i know, people have just said that he hasn't contributed much rather than that he's done anything more specifically scummy or that he's done anything that town jay

wouldn't

be doing.

i also think his point about scum being more interesting than town was genuine and a reason for his relative lack of activity.

[northsidegal]

eh, not a huge fan of the jmo wagon but i don't think it's scum driven. everyone's voting, which is interesting.

this is also interesting:

mutantdevle(2)

~ Aneninen(41), Pinturicchio(48)

pedit – just haven't moved it since rvs.

[northsidegal]

not sure what you're suggesting
there are multiple lynch candidates who have avoided the aneninen wagon when they easily could've jumped on to force it to be the default end-of-day wagon
scum should've been sheeping this long ago

you're right, i thought the current wagons looked different than they actually did – i thought anen was sitting at close to L-0 or something.

Pretty sure your vote wasn't RVS, NSG.

And if we need something concrete to lynch Jay then no wonder he always wins as scum - his posting is by and large irrelevant.

i meant "since the early game".

it's not impossible to get concrete reasons to lynch him, as scum – i had him locked as scum in the last game we played together.

[northsidegal]

golden paradox could be scum, who knows.

what makes you say this?

[northsidegal]

jmo, i was referring to jay with that second line there.

[northsidegal]

@NSG: are you really going to stick by your "never going to vote anyone unless i want to murder them on the spot" playstyle when we need 2 wagons for claims

hey! i'm just thinking, alright?

[northsidegal]

aneninen, i need a readslist from you whenever you see this.

[northsidegal]

Anyone up for a last minute pintu wagon?

i still scumread the way anen talked about the whole math/luca interaction but i compared his iso this game to his iso in his last scumgame and i think they feel pretty different.

[northsidegal]

Okay I'm happy with my vote.

what suddenly made you happy with your vote there?

[northsidegal]

he seems to have points that he actually cares about making this game and spends the time to articulate whereas in his iso that game he almost entirely stuck to the "one line respond to tons of posts thing". when i say points that he cares about making i'm talking about (766) "hard working players", the early game point from 938 and the problem he has with poe scumhunting in 940. it's by no means comprehensive and doesn't actually make him a townread by any means, but i think pintu is a better day one lynch.

[northsidegal]

VOTE: pintu

[northsidegal]

My vote was going to put Anen at L-2 which I was fine with but then I saw Pintu's vote and saw my vote would put him to L-1 which I was hesitant to do because of a potential hammer - but I decided to vote anyway since any premature hammers would basically be a scum claim. I then looked into Pintu's reason for voting and it just wasn't adding up to me. It felt scummy and I don't think Pintu has ever mentioned a desire to vote Anen and I don't think he's ever scum read him (I might be wrong on that though). At first, it felt like a reason to justify not voting for Anen which made me think Pintu was scum and hence I was further uncomfortable with my vote because scum on a wagon usually means a mislynch. But the more I thought about it the more it felt like a last minute attempt to get on the wagon to bus a declared doomed scum buddy.

I'm not really up for a Pintu wagon since my main basis for now suddenly being suspicious of him is that he's potential buddies with Anen. If Anen were to flip town, I could still consider this vote be due to Pintu's inexperience - An inexperience I can relate to because I remember wanting to be on every lynch that goes through regardless of my read as I thought it was the townie thing to do which I only started dropping on my first game on this site.

let me get this straight – you think pintu's vote was bad and it made you hesitate on keeping your vote there, but then you figured that it was a bus, so you felt good about it still flipping scum. your second paragraph doesn't follow with this. if pintu's vote was scummy initially but not scummy because you figure it's a bus, 1) that still makes pintu scum and 2) why do you just write it off as inexperience at the end instead of in the first place?

like, a scummy vote still makes someone scum even if you think it's scum budding their buddy.

[northsidegal]

That's a massive (probably unhealthy) ego boost, right there

[northsidegal]

Lol

[northsidegal]

Excited to respond when I get to a computer

[northsidegal]

Anyone up for a last minute pintu wagon?

Were you aware as of writing this post that this wording would ping me? I feel like you should know what I'm talking about.

I have literally no clue what you're referring to

[northsidegal]

Dude it's been 5 days, your vote is still a possible bus,

and you provided basically 0 reads over the course of yesterday.

Convince us you shouldn't just get policyvigged here.

This is patently untrue, by the way. I also think pintu's reaction to me spews me as town but that's just from memory, i'll look closer at that

[northsidegal]

Dude it's been 5 days, your vote is still a possible bus,

and you provided basically 0 reads over the course of yesterday.

Convince us you shouldn't just get policyvigged here.

This is patently untrue, by the way. I also think pintu's reaction to me spews me as town but that's just from memory, i'll look closer at that

... Wait, I thought that was directed at me?

From what i read people were saying the same things about me, so -shrug-

[northsidegal]

Wonder if that creature kill is reason to townread luca.

[northsidegal]

have i ever told you that i love playing with you, elsa? because i do.

[northsidegal]

i still think jay is town by play, although his vote on pintu i remember looking like a bus.

[northsidegal]

i think almost certainly both scum left were on the almost wagon, by the way.

[northsidegal]

Ok, thank you. I was not ok voting for Aneninen if that implied risking Jay, as I'm not scumreading her.
VOTE: Aneninen

this suggests ane town and jay scum, i think

[northsidegal]

because he doesn't seem like he's having fun and rubbing it in all of our faces like he was back then.

[northsidegal]

Here? Nobody's been REALLY asking me questions. Dino basically warned everyone about my style, so no one's confronting me the way I'd like. I tried a few times to stir the pot. Can't be anti-town too much though or that's gamethrowing. It's just... Hard as town for me. It's harder to find motivation and stuff. Scum just seems more fun in general IMO.

the essence of it is that i believe this a ton and i think it explains a lot. i mean, even just look at the postcount – we're already nearly at the same amount of pages that that game was at when it

ended

, and jay

replaced in

and he still has more posts there than he does here. this is the type of point that only works for sure in one game but i guess i believe it this time.

like i said though – i have a lot of reasons to believe that he

is

scum, it's just that his play itself (ignoring context, i guess) isn't one of them, really.

[northsidegal]

Just pointing out, we don't actually have to hunt the rolecop necessarily. Once we kill either of the last 2 scum they practically lose the role

(unless they are so stupid they'd rather role check someone instead of killing)

. But, in Jay's case, I guess this works as an argument they are scum.

is it silly to take it as a scum point against mutant that he knows this so readily? i went to go check the rules when i read this, and it only actually shows up in the words of the scum role pms in the spoiler in the first post.

this is kind of a point that i could see being made against me though that i would just roll my eyes at.

[northsidegal]

NSG, please explain your perspective on this game from the point you checked out.

It seems like you're just glossing over the fact that you straight up weren't here for 3 days while active in

literally every other game

, and can thus somewhat be held responsible for the total lack of town cohesion going into the night by not being here to stabilise things.

i couldn't tell you honestly. i thought i had made a post about the anen / mutant wagons when they happened, but the entire a50 wagon happened between the last time i checked the thread and seeing that the thread was locked.

[northsidegal]

Can we all agree to hypothetically vig pintu tonight?

I know that if I'm a vig, I'm doing it.

I sign. I'd prefer him lynched though since that guarantees he dies.

towny point, here.

[northsidegal]

While I definitely would not want to run up mutant today, I would be a strong advocate for vigging him tonight unless anyone seriously objects.

Edit: Okay but you weren't posting even before the A50 wagon. Like I was asking you questions and shit (nonapplicable now).

i'm not sure what you expect me to say.

[northsidegal]

{nsg}
{Aneninen}
{Gamma Emerald}
{Mathdino, Luca Blight}
{jmo16mla, TheGoldenParadox}
{JaydragonKing, mutantdevle}

[northsidegal]

...were you reading the thread?

Were you reading when people were dropping you down their reads lists the longer you were inactive? You usually get pretty annoyed at that shit.

Were you reading when I did that huge metadive on you?

no, like i said –

but the entire a50 wagon happened between the last time i checked the thread and seeing that the thread was locked.

[northsidegal]

VOTE: mutantdevle
on NSG's reasoning.

my reasoning where?

[northsidegal]

how do you roll scum so often, elsa?

[northsidegal]

why are you still scumreading me, math?

[northsidegal]

jmo is the best jail, honestly. vig mutant.

[northsidegal]

@NSG: I expected a better answer for why you avoided this game, and you're playing against your town meta hard.

Weaksauce. have you noticed how i'm playing against my scum meta by being on the mark about two scum so far when i don't think i've ever even voted a scumbuddy before?

[northsidegal]

Nah, not this time North. Not scum.

Not like I'd really get away with a claim like that anyway where all roles are known. That's scum suicide.

Was honestly reading Dino as the Jailkeeper fake asking people to Jail him, and when I saw he wasn't counterclaiming, I knew he'd let me take the scum shot. Didn't think someone elsa was the Jailkeeper, let alone wouldn't just let me take the scum bullet for them.

I'll take the Vig shot then. Let's find the Scum together guys!

as much as i believe that this is possible, you're still the lynch today.

[northsidegal]

Don't feel bad. Even if you hadn't I was fine with it given a fakeclaim means after the fakeclaimer is lynched my role can be used to clear people.
And I can go for a NSG JK instead. That's my pick for now.

Don't jail me.

[northsidegal]

I've also read through your mafia PTs and remembered that you explicitly said you'd bus when it made sense to and when your townself would be scumreading people, and pintu was definitely scummy. You were the first vote on his wagon and as such you couldn't have expected it to take off as much as it did, and you weren't around to sort the chaos later on.

Edit: Use the hurt/heal tags!
Playing with confirmed scum around is fun, I have no interest in rushing the day.

lol? i was the one who pointed out that pintu was scummy. go back and look at when i "played the game" and compared his post this game to his newbie game – nobody else saw anything there. it was really just me.

[northsidegal]

like do you remember the point rc was making in be yourself about the lie detect being awful on him? that's how i feel right now. there's literally no reason for it to be on me.

[northsidegal]

if elsa flips role cop mathdino should be conftown, by the way.

[northsidegal]

forgetting why i was scumreading mutant right now, actually.

[northsidegal]

VOTE: mutantdevle
on NSG's reasoning.

my reasoning where?

[northsidegal]

i'm pretty sure he was baiting you. kind of obvious this time though, i think.

pedit yeah

[northsidegal]

Oh my God this is literally going down hill again, and the time limit only gets worse. Paradox for all that is towny, please realize the difference between what Pintu has done and what Anen or someone like jmo have done. Keep on the course with the Anen Lynch.

suggets paradox, anen and jmo all town?

[northsidegal]

there's only so few people scum could still actually be in, then. perhaps ane isn't as cleared as i thought.

[northsidegal]

i wonder if that mistake really was outside of jay's scumgame. apparently i've already underestimated him once, this game.

[northsidegal]

My vote was going to put Anen at L-2 which I was fine with but then I saw Pintu's vote and saw my vote would put him to L-1 which I was hesitant to do because of a potential hammer - but I decided to vote anyway since any premature hammers would basically be a scum claim. I then looked into Pintu's reason for voting and it just wasn't adding up to me. It felt scummy and I don't think Pintu has ever mentioned a desire to vote Anen and I don't think he's ever scum read him (I might be wrong on that though). At first, it felt like a reason to justify not voting for Anen which made me think Pintu was scum and hence I was further uncomfortable with my vote because scum on a wagon usually means a mislynch. But the more I thought about it the more it felt like a last minute attempt to get on the wagon to bus a declared doomed scum buddy.

I'm not really up for a Pintu wagon since my main basis for now suddenly being suspicious of him is that he's potential buddies with Anen. If Anen were to flip town, I could still consider this vote be due to Pintu's inexperience - An inexperience I can relate to because I remember wanting to be on every lynch that goes through regardless of my read as I thought it was the townie thing to do which I only started dropping on my first game on this site.

let me get this straight – you think pintu's vote was bad and it made you hesitate on keeping your vote there, but then you figured that it was a bus, so you felt good about it still flipping scum. your second paragraph doesn't follow with this. if pintu's vote was scummy initially but not scummy because you figure it's a bus, 1) that still makes pintu scum and 2) why do you just write it off as inexperience at the end instead of in the first place?

like, a scummy vote still makes someone scum even if you think it's scum budding their buddy.

oh yeah, this was why i was scumreading mutant.

[northsidegal]

mutantdevle is the obvious kill if Jay flips VT

explain this?

[northsidegal]

mutantdevle is the obvious kill if Jay flips VT

explain this?

Do you have any better ideas or scumreads?

i was just wondering if there was something specific about a jay townflip that would make mutant scum.

[northsidegal]

[northsidegal]

[northsidegal]

that's not really the point of contention though? It's that mutant is very likely not scum with jay cos scum playerlist awareness. It's the same philosophy Cabd had in Large 199 when claiming masons with someone outside of the game (I know no one understands this but I still feel like the comparison should be made).

What? I understand that perfectly. I'm saying that I wonder if that "forgetting" of who his scumbuddy was is really something that he couldn't fake.

[northsidegal]

NSG WHY DID YOU VIG JMO WHEN WE AGREED ON MUTANT
VIGS ARE ANTI-TOWN

i disagree. i missed once, yes – but i also hit scum once. in the same gamestate me choosing to not shoot at all would only have hurt town. plenty of people had completely changed direction on pintu after his ate – there's no guarantee he would have been lynched anytime soon. of course, had a vig not been in the game at all there's no telling how things would have turned out, but eh.