Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Aneninen]

VOTE: Creature

[Aneninen]

Catching-up.

Mutantdevle's 11 is WTF. What if he tried to be cheeky?

Mathdino's 12 is something we should remember if he flips town. Right now, it's null. It's just as likely that he wants to be the town leader as scum. (By the way, f-ck that game! I know that I'm the worst Vig ever on MafiaScum. Others could talk about it too.) His 17 was WTF, on the other hand. Since when can an RVS be bad?

Jaydragonking's 19 was ugh. I know it seems I only find null things, but frankly, I've never seen anyone blowing her own trumpet in such an irritating way. (If it turns out later than it was a joke, ignore this. 28 suggests it wasn't a joke.)

Mathdino's 26 contains too many reads considering it was only early-Page2. Either he was reaction testing or scum trying to take over the town. We'll see, I guess.

Northsidegal's 29 is too nervous. What wagon? On Page2?

Mutantdevle's 32 was terrible. Too concerned about his own joke and tiptoe-ing around a possible wagon on me? Mathdino, did you mean such things in your first post when you had talked about Mutantdevle? Or wait, in 35 you said:

"Edit: Does anyone have scum meta of mutant? That would help here. I have a hunch on how he would behave as scum."

So you know only his townplay?

Why was that much talk about a possible Vig plan?

Almost50, what was the point of your 46?

Jmo16mla was right in his 54.

I don't understand why Gamma brought that replacement up in 58, especially if he added two posts later:

"lolwut that was in the past dude"

How can I say, he was posting without producing real content.

Mathdino's 63. I still don't get why you wanted a wagon on NSG or me. Reaction tests on us or on the players jumping on?

Jaydragonking's 64 (and others before). She had a terribly high fluff/content ratio.

Jmo16la's 65 was WTF. Why did you want a wagon to L–1 on Luca? Or was that a joke again? Than back to Creature in 85. For those who know him: is he a vote-hopper as town? (Or as scum?)

Mathdino's 74:

"We're talking about mutantdevle. No one else comment on this convo, thanks."

I don't see how that kind of attitude helps town. (Side-note. If both him and Jaydragonking are scum, we'll have a hard time.) In general, Mathdino and Jaydragonking was posting a lot around that time... but with little useful content.

I didn't like Northsidegal's 88. It gave me bad vibes, but I can't put my finger on it, why. But, I

know

what's wrong with his 90!

"pretty lame thing to hop on jay for – he was just responding to a question that gamma asked him."

– That referred to Jmo16mla's post (which I commented here, see above). He did

not

hop on Jaydragonking, he didn't even vote for her. I know it's only Day1, but what if both Northsidegal and Jaydragonking are scum? We should remember this post if any of those two flips scum!

Mathdino, 91 What made Northsidegal lock-town for you?

________

Going on soon.

So far, despite the amount of the post there were quite little content.

[Aneninen]

Going on.

The Mathdino-Northsidegal 101–102 was weird. Why those names? And what sort of answer was that?

"everyone there is null right now with the caveat that i'm pretty confident that the bottom two will be easy to sort as this day progresses."

Almost50, what was the point of your 103?

Jmo16mla's 110

"Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!"

– that's a terrible idea. Oh wait, it is a good idea for scum who want to rolefish.

Pinturicchio's 112 looked like a genuine newer player post. But, that's something that scum could easily emulate. We should make him talk more to sort him out. (Assuming he's a relatively new player.) 172 felt town.

Jmo16mla's 116

"I hate RVS with a passion and pressuring just about everything out of the gate seems to help get the game off the ground. Hence me wagoning creature and then trying to get one on you."

just one question. Why Creature?

And Jaydragonking was fluffing again in 122.

Luca's 127 felt town. Also, for his 134. Yes, I've seen many scum pushing wagons on relatively passive players. I did that many times, too. Erm... and I've just found Jaydragonking's 148... (Although I don't think MsLookHowSuperbIAm would have such an obvious scumplay.)

Mathdino's 137

"Luca do me a favour and stop interrogating jmo for now, talk about something else"

Why?

I don't think you're right in 158, Mathdino. Even if it took place years ago, as far as I can remember, Luca's scumplay was very different. I can't explain it why, but he was "under the radar" and he didn't stand out for me as someone picking up fights. However, if there's someone I didn't like about Luca

here

, it's his instant OMGUS-vote.
(Now, I'm skipping the rest of this fight. I may return to it later. But I don't think Luca's scum and I'm unsure about Mathdino. But I wouldn't lynch him on Day1. He's worth a lot as town and if he's scum we'll have ample time to figure that out later. I know this whole part in the brackets sounds lame. But I don't care shyt.)

Mutantdevle's 167:

"Btw, does anyone know if it's Anen's meta to lurk?"

Oh My Gods. A whole day or something like that without my posts. Terrible! But...

"So I'm going to take up Math's offer of mini-waggoning them so that they start posting."

At that time he wasn't voting for me! Are you afraid of launching a wagon on me without help?

[Aneninen]

Always appreciated your playstyle, but GOD do I hope you're not vig this time

Obviously, I'm not answering this. But you must admit that my Vig-play makes the game more exciting. I mean, if the town's winning I make the game more balanced...

I admittedly haven't looked over your meta. Did you vote blind?

Yes. I usually do so. Once I get wagoned because I had my RVS on Page5 or something like that. (I don't remember the game, though.)

And have you ever played with Creature before?

Not answering this.
However, where is he now?

Feel free to... ask... why I had those reads.

So, why were Gamma and Jmo town? Have those reads changed?

Yes, he got mislynched in the game I modded, and mis-MyLo-lynched in another game we played together (I died N1). I personally thought he bled town both times. He has a scummy playstyle that I think I have a good track record of reading.

Then I give him a free pass for

Today

. (Yes, I was scumreading him.)

I thought your vote was bad, or at least bad enough to wagon. NSG I wanted to quicksort.

First part: okay.
Second part: you concluded that he was town. Why? I think the opposite.

1. I felt like it got to the point where Luca asking what I considered to be leading questions was leading to NAI answers from jmo, and clogging up the thread with relatively unreadable tunneling on Luca's part.
I wanted to get a read on Luca because I was picking up a scumread there, but first I wanted to get his thoughts on others.

2. Good to know, thanks. Do you know his townplay? Because if he's also inconsistent with his behaviour in towngames, we might not be able to read him on meta.

1. So, does it boil down to (1) making something out of nothing and (2) ignoring everyone else?
2. Sorry, I don't remember his townplay. I remember playing with town-Luca, but that's all. Maybe I got lynched early. Or maybe I was scum. Luca? Can you help me out?

[Aneninen]

Quick Readlist.

town

Luca (explained above)
Pinturicchio (new-player town vibes, explained above)

lean town

Mathdino (his late-questions made him look better)

null or unsorted

(These don't mean the same!)
Creature (no content)
GoldenParadox (is he in the game?)
Mutantdevle (According to Mathdino my scumread on him may be wrong)

lean scum

JayDragonKing (too much fluff, too little content)
Almost50 (too little content but that doesn't match the town-meta I know.)
Gamma (little content but see what I brought up)
Jmo16Mla (see my posts, nothing big but plenty of concerning bits.)

scum

Northsidegal (explained above.)

________

I know I have too many scumreads and too few townreads. For your information, these lists are sort of self-reminders.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Northsidegal

________

Post-edit.

I've read your latest, Mathdino. See your point as for your early-townreads.
I'll think about that later. I mean, your Luca-read. Your NSG-read haven't been explained yet.

[Aneninen]

I never said I was scum reading you. My vote was clearly for lack of activity.

Shouldn't you vote for a

scumread

then?

Also Jay tends to have a fair bit of fluff in their posts, my understanding is that it's not AI for them.

I've never played with her, which might be a disadvantage for me at reading her.
However, if she's

half

as great as she keeps admitting it, she

definitely

should do more scumhunting and less fluff. (I know I'm also called a fluffy one many times. But I've never said that I'm an exceptional player.)

I wouldn't say my playstyle is scummy, just that I don't conform to site (or mafia in general) meta. I usually look more and more townie the further into a game I live.

I remember reading this a couple of times before. From scum.

as scum, I would just be like let's get everyone to L-1 so they can claim? Also, in b4 wifom. That just doesn't make any sense for scum to do at the beginning of day one.

I've seen that happening before. Although, not as blatantly presented. You're right in that bit.

[Aneninen]

The reason you're getting the cock vibe from Jay is precisely because of his undefeated record as scum. That doesn't, however, encapsulate his town game.

But does she fluff that much and produce that little content as town?

[Aneninen]

Okay.
After this post it's clearer now, but I still don't want to townread you right now because of (ongoing game reasons, sorry).

[Aneninen]

Shyt, that was obviously for Jaydragonking.
I'm exhausted IRL.

[Aneninen]

@Anen

- I vaguely remember playing with you when I was Town and you were scum before my hiatus from the site. I don't recall myself playing as scum against you, however?

It was a Newbie. You were scum with Jackal. He got caught by the Tracker and he had LMAO posts after that. Both of us were at LyLo, I scumread you but the other townie (I don't remember who) voted for me so you won. Does it ring a bell? I don't remember the game you mentioned, though.

I'm not big on meta, personally. I don't like to over-rely on it to read players, nor do I feel it's effective in reading me as I like to play differently every game regardless of alignment. I also feel Mafia as a whole is more fun when played purely, without judging players based on stuff that occurred elsewhere.

That doesn't mean I'm hyper-aware of my meta, and even if I were that aware, that doesn't make it useless by any means. A lot of fantastic players on this site are primarily catchable by meta, despite being super aware of their own meta. Meta is an underrated tool.

Just a guess. What if your gamestyles clash and the whole "fight" is NAI?

Point is, I think I could spot my own scumgame, and I do think I have scumtells (although I haven't pinpointed them, sadly), and that doesn't help me at all. There've been times where I sit back after scumposts and realise just how much I'm not playing to my town meta... and continue this course.

Weird. I thought I was the only one who spotted all the scumtells in my own posts.
Even if I get sometimes so involved in scumhunting that I simply forget in the middle of a Day that I'm scum. (There was a self-reminder post about that in my first scumgame, I guess, after my buddy had been Nightkilled.)

Also why NSG or Aneni? What makes them good early-game wagons?

Lol, the first player ever who used my name in Fairy-style. (That would be a female name in Fairy language, though.)

Fluffpost over.
Going on soon.

[Aneninen]

As for fluff...

My wiki is overly outdated. Did you know?

I've ISOed Creature and he has produced no useful content so far.

I'm kind of scumreading this. It's something about the wording - awkward and a bit LAMIST, while trying to appease both parties. It doesn't really contribute anything, either,

It would be true if it had been posted by a much more experienced player. (It was a reaction to Pinturicchio's 172.)

I think your view of the game is stuck in that weird period of 2014 where everyone decided to start shitting all over meta. Self-awareness hurts meta only if you think the player is actually capable of changing it.

Some players have relatively static meta, whereas others are very changeable.

Can I ask you what you would do/talk about in the scum PT in the situation that you rolled scum with mutant, knowing he got vigged last game?

I'd do what I tried to do with Hellfire Missile: tutor him.

Erm... why did you answer this question?

I guess you could call it a bit LAMISTy. There are basically 3 scenarios here:
A. He's town. Ok cool.
B. He's scum not with you, and is trying to defuse a fight that he knows is TvT for the towncred.
This works to gain one post's worth of towncred I guess, but if you and I are actually TvT, our fighting is actively anti-town and is worsening the gamestate and the thread. So that would be a super anti-scum move to make.
C. He's scum with you, and is coaching you into getting off my ass.

B – see my answer above. Still, it's unlikely that a new-ish player would perform that move.
C – that's silly. Do you think Pinturicchio would be coaching Luca?

If you think I'm trying to appease both of you, you're partially right: I'm really impressed by both of you because I'm seeing a huge gap between this game's arguments and my Newbie games. I was told in a Newbie I should sometimes "follow the leader" if I'm not having good reads in anyone.

Eeeew, that piece of advice is pigeon poop. That's how scum pocket townies. (Make townies townread them and vote with them for another townies.)

I'm being criticised for wanting to be different to what's considered normal?
Story of my life.

Mathdino and others who have played with him: is this his

town

play? Holy sh--

I've been following along reading. Don't want to get too far behind on posting though. I want more from golden paradox, he voted me then hoped out of the game. I still need to look at lucas pokemon game even though he doesn't like to rely on and doesn't think meta is a good tell.
UNVOTE: UNVOTE:

So. You were following the game and this was the most important thing to add?

(Snip)
These reactions to being voted ping me a bit as well - it feels unnatural.

I don't like this, feels deliberately obtuse

FOS: Luca Blight

Would vote but not sure of wagon status

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

Fairy-style...?

Actually, that would be a long off to explain it, but the point is...

Spoiler:

Sorry, that's a pigeon again

But,

Spoiler:

Aneni is a female fairy name. Or at least, a tiny part of one. It would be hard to explain the exact pronunciation.
Long story short. I was surprised.

#Important Announcement:

I see you're all making a damn good circus show without me. I'll only intervene when I'm needed, so carry on. (That's me being

very truthful

, in fact)

Check out the first spoiler in this post. That's my answer for this.

[Aneninen]

Why did you answer 250 first, 242 next and finally 245?

[Aneninen]

Why did you answer 250 first, 242 next and finally 245?

While replying to your post saying that I didn't contribute anything, I remembered a few posts that I wanted to bring to light. So I brought them to light.

Okay. This may or may not be true, but it may be totally irrelevant too.

@Aneni (I can still call you this right) I answered 77 cos I didn't realize it was meant for one person

According to your speed how you caught up I doubt that you had missed the context.

Also why is my suspicion of LB poop? I'm suspecting them (Luca what's your pronoun?) because I don't like how they're treating jmo's attempts to advance the gamestate

Again, according to your catch-up you must have had a brief idea about the wagon size.
Besides, there was a Vote Count on Page8. You could have checked the votes.
Posting a FoS is an auto pigeon poop for me.
Also, Luca has had interactions with quite a few other players too. It's strange that you pointed out only Jmo.

I forgot I had a vote on someone tbh. I'm not voting the other guy because I can't remember his name right now and I'm on my phone on a hurry. I'll catch up as soon as possible.

What other guy? You have a scumread and you don't remember his

name

(yet you know it's a guy)?! If you meant Mutant, you actually posted his name earlier.
This doesn't add up at all.

I'm concerned about accidentally hammering
but since you say it's fresh
VOTE: Luca Blight

NoNoNoNoNONONO!
We know that you'd been reading the game before this and your FoS-post.
Even if someone doesn't know whether a wagon consists of 3 or 4 people, they MUST know whether it's fresh or close to hammer.
Your whole catch-up was about producing content-looking posts without any scumhunting behind. You picked a couple of things, and made up a couple of reads.
Scum do such posts.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Aneninen]

Catching-up.

Aneninen, could you please link me to one of your town and scum games? You are all over the place, and if you are going to be like that, I should have a better idea of what you are trying to do

I came back in January for Team Mafia, but before that I have been missing for one and a half year. Right now I only have ongoing games, so all I can show you are oldies.

Eg.
Town
Scum

Post-edit. My wiki is outdated. And I don't remember my password either.

WOOOOOW destruction of context much?

What context? You brought up something than you said it had been the past. What did that

with that comment included

have to do with this game?

Actually Aneni's post I just referring to has a lot of discrediting it seems

What discrediting?

Always appreciated your playstyle, but GOD do I hope you're not vig this time

Obviously, I'm not answering this. But you must admit that my Vig-play makes the game more exciting. I mean, if the town's winning I make the game more balanced...

Hope you don't mind if I jailkeep you then

I counterclaim

I hope both of these were jokes.

Also what's up with that comma at the end?

Erm... was that a thing?
However,
UNVOTE:
According to the site rules I may not explain this.

[Aneninen]

Jay's 312 was townish.

Stop pocketing newbies. This is scummy.

Hmmm. This was for the Jay–Pinturicchio interaction. I don't think either of them is scum but if one of them flips so, the other one could be scum too.

...
I'll probably tell you that later on. Not in the mood to get serious here yet.
...
Yeah, trying my hardest not to get NK'd on N1 by getting myself lynched on D1. GENIUS!

Why are you "not in the mood to get serious"?
Also, getting lynched? You weren't wagoned at all!

Spoiler: @Almost50

01000000 01000001 01101100 01101101 01101111 01110011 01110100 00110101 00110000 0001010 01001101 01001001 01010011 01010011 01001001 01001111 01001110 00100000 01000110 01000001 01001001 01001100 01000101 01000100 0001010 0001010 01001000 01001111 01010111 00100000 01000100 01001001 01000100 00100000 01010100 01001000 01000101 01011001 00100000 01001011 01001110 01000101 01010111 00100000 01010100 01001000 01000001 01010100 00100000 01010111 01000101 00100000 01000001 01010010 01000101 00100000 01000110 01010010 01001111 01001101 00100000 01000011 01001001 01000001 00111111 00100000

Spoiler: @MathDino

Why do you want to blink all chickens in the volcano?

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

* * * Achievement Unlocked! * * *

* * * Pigeoning the Mod! * * *

As for Mathdino's readlist, 338.
Pinturicchion, Gamma okay.
Explain your Jmo and Almost50 reads.

As for Creature, I drew the same conclusion. For more ask me why tomorrow. (Not Tomorrow.)
Luca – finally. ^_^

Mutantdevle – what do you mean by "off"? You were the one who told us that we shouldn't read him in a "conventional way". What has changed?

Jay feels town. No read on Paradox yet. And I agree with your Northsidegal read. (See my earlier posts.)

[Aneninen]

F-ck this shyt, my post disappeared!!!

The last thing I remember posting about was Mathdino's readlist. 338.
In short:
Pinturicchio, Gamma okay. Explain your Jmo and Almost50 reads.
Creature: right, I drew the same conclusion and I'll talk about it tomorrow (not with capital T).
Why is Mutant off? You told us not to read him in the conventional way.
Jay looks town. There was something about her in that disappeared post.
Northsidegal is scummy. I've posted about him before.

That was Page14. I'll go on tomorrow, it's late here. Sorry.

[Aneninen]

Catching-up soon.

I'm not doing post-by-post analyses any more. It's clear that I'm always behind of the events and (what's even worse) I still miss important things.

So, if there are things I should be aware of or questions asked from me but I haven't found, point them out.

[Aneninen]

I'm not so sure Gamma is town tbh, but I'm not sure if it's just his posting style that's triggering me.

Right after Mathdino's surprise scumread on NSG?
Can we see a soft-chainsaw here?

Because he's looking like he's trying to discredit

Although my scumread on went away yesterday, I'm still asking it: where?

FoS Mathdino

flip floppy as hell. Tell me the previous post was a joke and I'll get off your back.
VOTE: northsidegal
Actual vote.

You FoS Mathdino but vote with him. Why?

Also, I feel like a possible motive for Almost being so passive that if he was active in this scenario, people would become suspicious that he wasn't NKed(since he can't NK himself).

I don't know whether the passive is the best word for it, but somehow he doesn't feel town.

Can someone speak with me?

You was the one who hadn't been posting, not us.

You have said in the thread that you know how to read NSG and that Creature is easy to sort as the game goes on; on your very first post, you said both NSG and Creature would be sorted by the end of the day. Are they? If that's the case, could you explain why?

I have two more thoughts: I need more content frome Creature.

(snip)

VOTE: Creature

I'm not townreading Pinturicchio any more.

Didn't see Creature's post while I was posting, and my scumread on him has gone with the wind. I'm taking my vote back.
UNVOTE: Creature

Oh. Checking the time tags...
...
...Pigeon poop.
Creature had started posting 12 minutes

before

your previous post. I seriously doubt that it took 12 minutes for you to type that couple of lines.

Okay.
As I reached Page17 while I was reading the game I got

pretty sure this is the town-Creature I know

. Period. More explanation comes later.

[Aneninen]

Okay this is my problem here with restricting our lynch pool to creature/NSG:
Let's say scum are neither of those. It restricts discussion, allows for less diversity in speech, and is anti-town in general.
VOTE: Mathdino because i think you're smart enough to realize that. Very well could be a scum gambit that if everyone hopped on to would cause an easy mislynch and a very easy excuse tomorrow (Oh, they were lurking and weren't active). i don't believe that a town!dino would do that on purpose and I do think a scum dino is smart enough to do it.

I don't think he's the only player working with such a narrow lynch pool. Also, I remember him examining every player.

I feel pretty confident in arguing that only Aneninen would be bad enough at vigging to the point of vigging A50

Lololololololol!
And you didn't see the game where town-Texcat Roleblocked me so as to prevent another townie getting Nightkilled...

Ongoing games, Paradox. Ignore it, he doesn't have to respond to that.

^^

So I figured this was a general towntell because for most players it would be a towntell, but then I checked his scumgame and he does almost the exact same thing (set up a "this is what I meant back there" moment later on), but then I found some towngames where he did something similar, so fuck me, this is just NAI LAMISTing.

No, it's something more. Yet again, site rules.

The context that I was talking about meta theory, I brought up a past incident, and jmo didn't realize how old it was. I mean for fuck's sake Did you not see jmo's 61?

Even if it sounds lame I did not see that.

Maybe it's closer to shading but it seems you're pointing out a lot more scummy things than towny things. I guess it's an inversion of the "scum don't need to townhunt" idea.

I know I'm not a genius. I know that I've missed quite a lot of things in this game. But, I recommend you read my posts again.

I want to note I'm a bit skeptical of Anen's townread of me that seems to be based on meta, when not only I've said meta is not reliable in reading me but the meta in question is from years ago.

As I posted, your "wall-war" with Mathdino was more about the difference between your playstyle than the difference between your alignment. Or at least, I had that feeling. (It is possible, although not too likely, that both of you are scum, but I'm ignoring this idea Today.)

Northsidegal's 29 is too nervous. What wagon? On Page2?

how is it "nervous"? also, what wagon? how about the one mathdino explicitly mentioned a few posts before that:

Caaaan I interest you in a NSG or Aneninen mini-wagon so your vote isn't doing nothing?

The expression mini-wagon is pigeon poop in itself so I was ignoring that.

it would only truly be rolefishing if someone declared intent to hammer, which i don't often see happen with early game wagons and anyone declaring intent on one would most likely be met with pretty quick unvotes / votes on them. with that in mind i think this accusation rings hollow.

Not really.
Quite a lot of players tend to claim when they're at L–1 without a hammer intent because lol-hammering is always a chance. Actually, there are a couple of players who claim before reaching L–1. Especially if they think the wagon itself is terrible. I myself did that before, at least once.

[Aneninen]

yes, mutant plays kind of contrary to typical site meta. people say that it's a "scummy" style, but i don't really think so – speaking from experience in open 701, he really only did one scummy thing and was obvtown (i felt) for the rest of the game. same with open 711.
can you elaborate on what you don't like about what he said there?

This:

"I'm being criticised for wanting to be different to what's considered normal? Story of my life."

In my mind it gets translated to:

"Just because I look scum that does not mean you should scumread me. Even if I'm scum."

KK. My vote on you was not a serious vote, it was a pressure vote and I said it was serious to get a reaction. I don't believe that NSG is scum here. I do believe math is scum for countless reasons both luca and I have pointed out.

Why do you think NSG is town?

tl;dr @All: I never actually townread NSG, I wanted to purposefully act like I was pocketing her and see if she noticed.

Hm.
I'll read it back later when I have more time.

[Aneninen]

And before anyone points it out: I know I'm below standard now. Even below Aneninen-standard. That happens when I have more things to do than I originally planned. Work from both workplaces has been piling up on me. (And I neeeeeed to play some Pokémon Go later too, because if I don't move my body for a day, I get hysteric. And swimming or exercising is not an option today, unfortunately. And I'm lame. F-ck.)

[Aneninen]

I answered this already. The same post by you where I took issue with your analysis of my 58+60 I felt had too little town-tells spotted, I felt like you were not really trying to townhunt which felt scummy.

Posts 58 and 60. Reads on Page3 or so are obviously much weaker and based upon smaller things than on eg. Page30, or on Day2. In most cases. In other words: if such a thing had happened now, I wouldn't care a lot about it. Actually if you hadn't brought it up I wouldn't even remembered it.

Perhaps you should explain more about your towntell on Gamma? Why have you suddenly gone 180 on that read? Dare I say, this sudden shift feels predatory to me.

That.
Was it another reaction test?
Post-edit. Never mind, I've found it.

Aninen what team are you on? VALOR ROCKS Anen is obvtown cause he plays Pokemon Go.(joking)

You can vote for me then because I'm Mystic. ^_^
But

Spoiler:

I have quite a lot of Valor and Instinct friends, too.

One thing I'm thinking; has anyone seen any association tells from either of them? I feel their interactions are sorta awkward but I can't explain why.

Gamma and Mathdino?

(Self-reminder. It sounds awkward but I don't remember why I was townreading Mathdino earlier.)

Is a math/luca/gamma scumteam possible?

Strange. That Math/Luca pair has already come into my mind, too. But I don't think it's likely. (If I'm right, they're doing it f-cking well.) Nevertheless, I'm ignoring this possibility right now. If they're scum together we'll find that out on a later Day.

Pintu and Paradox seem fine to me. I consider Luca to basically be a policyvig. If town agreed to it, I'd love a vig on Luca, but otherwise, probably a bad idea.

Wait-oh.

3. You are not allowed to scumread

mutantdevle

and GoldenParadox for standard scumtells. I've seen them both mislynched when they were towntelling left and fucking right. If anyone has any firsthand scum meta of them, go ahead and share.

Paradox and

Jay

are currently not readable. Stop trying. Jay dies before LyLo, and Paradox needs to provide more content or he goes straight into the scumpool.

Considering the underlined names I can't really follow your logic.

[Aneninen]

I have some good news for you. (And a piece of bad for myself.)

Now I can explain my Creature and Gamma reads.

This one was my game at Team Mafia. Creature was there too, and this has been my only experience with him. Here, in the early days I couldn't see the Creature I had seen in Team Mafia. Even if everyone said he is ridiculously easy to read, I saw him lurking and posting no content. However, a couple of days ago the familiar Creature "kicked in" with the same posting sytle I know. (Although before the game ended there was a small logical chance that Creature was scum there, he hadn't been on my scum-list when I'd been alive.)

Mod

, I don't think it's a problem to link the game since it's over. I actually waited for a while to see whether the thread would be re-opened but it seems it won't happen until Team Mafia ends. If it's

still

against the rules to mention the game here, I'm sorry and delete this part of the post.

I had an ongoing one with Gamma too, but it has been abandoned for a reason I don't know yet. In this game he replaced in, got lynched on Day1, and he flipped scum. At the beginning his gameplay here was similar to the one I'd seen there. Especially that "I don't know the size of the Luca-wagon" part reminded me to something just as silly as he'd done there. (I don't remember what was it.) But suddenly, he started to be ridiculously nitpicky, which I couldn't see there. Then, checking his ISO I saw a different gameplay.
I must admit, my earlier read on him may have been a bit biased. It was easier for me to find scummy things in his posts: in the other game I knew he was scum from the beginning, so I saw all the scumtells clearly. I was scum with him.

--It should be fine since it's not an ongoing game.

[Aneninen]

or like anyone, though, I prefer someone I'm not townreading.

I'm here.
Why are you scumreading me?

[Aneninen]

Definitely thinking scum between aneninen and gamma at this point
Call it poe

I'm not scum and I don't think Gamma's scum. See above.

On the other hand, I have the similar feeling. Some of my earlier scumreads are gone. I have a couple of "I don't know" reads. My gun-to-head three scumreads would be Northsidegal, Mutantdevle and Almost50 but none of these are half as strong as my scumreads usually are at this gamephase.

I think we all should examine our null, unsorted, conflicted, etc. reads. Or at least, I'll do so.

[Aneninen]

@Everyone voting me – please inform me of what your mathdino read is. Doesn't have to be detailed, you can condense it to a few words, even.

Actually I must have missed this. Maybe because I'm not voting right now. Reasons above, why.
There's my answer for your question partially, if you still care. Earlier I had a townread on Mathdino, because I thought his whole argument with Luca was mostly about playstyle differences. Right now I don't know what to think. He posts a lot and I must admit I haven't always read everything from him. Yet he could be scum too. However, I wouldn't lynch him on Day1. If he's town we'll gain a lot from his reads later as long as he's alive. If he's scum, I don't think he'd get to LyLo because sooner or later it would turn out that his reads are pigeon poop.

I'm not so sure Gamma is town tbh, but I'm not sure if it's just his posting style that's triggering me.

Right after Mathdino's surprise scumread on NSG?
Can we see a soft-chainsaw here?

I don't see what Math's read on NSG has to do with my read on Gamma and I have no idea what your second question is - possibly because I am unfamiliar with the term?

Chainsaw = attacking the townie who has just attacked your scumbuddy. Eg. If I'm scum with Clotilde and Mathilda votes for her, I start calling Mathilda scum.

Actually I don't remember why I posted this. The only thing comes into my mind that I was reading the game without my glasses on and skipped a couple of words or lines and I thought you had posted "I'm not sure Mathdino is town tbh". I know how terrible it sounds. But such things are typical of me.

I don't follow your logic on why the latter 2 of math's posts would cause you not to follow the logic of his first?

From his point of view Jay or you would be a better Vig-target than Luca.

595 - Don't really get why Anen takes back his townread of Pin here. Is this actually based on the content of 392 itself? It's weird how he snips off part of Pin's reasoning here. The time tag comment that follows is bad as well - he's assuming Pin didn't post without reading recent posts (something I do myself sometimes) or merely get distracted while posting. What motivation has Pin to deliberately vote Creature only to immediately rescind it?

It wasn't his 392 alone. It was the fact that he had wanted more content from Creature while it had actually been there, for 12 minutes. (The sentence I quoted stood out, that'swhy I removed the other part of the post.) No idea why he unvoted Creature later but I think he must have seen that he had already posted. So I don't think his reasoning for his unvote was genuine.

[Aneninen]

Mutantdevle's Gamma case is strong indeed. There's one thing I should bring up: his case on me appeared to have come from a town mindset. (Actually he was the only one who actually

posted

some reasons along with the vote for me.) I remember that part about the size of the Luca-wagon and I was scumreading him because of that.

I don't know what to think, because:

@Anen

- I just don't get why scum-Pin would see Creature's 'content' (it wasn't even that much tbf), pretend not to see it and proceed to suspect him for lack of content, before rescinding everything a short while later. At best it would just be a completely pointless exercise? What does he gain as scum here?

I don't know. I strongly think it was pigeon poop and that's all.

Here's my problem. A couple of days ago I had no time for reading and somehow I lost my focus. Even if I tried to catch up. I'm reading, posts are coming and going and I can't make anything out of them. So I desperately want to find something, anything so that my usual scumhunting could "kick in". But somehow it doesn't work.

Honestly I'm not sure how much of that game is impacting my read here but I think your play is worse than there tbh (this is before checking that post again as directed)

See above! I F-CKING KNOW. I was focused there. And I don't know what's wrong with me here.

Here comes Gamma's 665. He was actually self-hammered in that abandoned game, BUT, just check out his posts at the time he was wagoned! They were full of swearing. AtE-ing. Raging. I can't see any of those posts here.
Even if I think Mutantdevle's case is valid, Gamma's

reactions

make me think that he's town.
I'm getting nowhere.

AtE
I'm going to wash the dishes instead. I love doing that. The more the merrier.
And this post sounds fake. I know that too. But I don't care shyt.
/AtE

[Aneninen]

@Anen: I'd be interested in knowing your reason(s) for SRing me, and -maybe- why you think BSG/mutant are my buddies here.

As I said, I have no strong reads. I might have phrased my post wrong, but I didn't call out a scumteam, I simply gave three gun-to-head reads.

There are two things about you. Firstly, your posting style doesn't match anything I've seen from town-you. Secondly, you quoted one post from me with a note "taken out of context". Then "clean up my pigeon poop" in your readlist. Then you voted because "better than sitting on a vanity wagon". I know neither of these are strong tells, but considering how lost I am (see my previous posts) they

are

tells for me right now.

Mutantdevle was partly sheeping Mathdino. Normally, I'd have called him scum after the first couple of pages. But Mathdino told us that we shouldn't read him in the normal way, so I dropped my scumread. (Maybe someone else posted it too?) Then he posted "Mutantdevle is off". Without being able to form a read he joined my list.

Northsidegal (I think you misspelled NSG) was partly intuition, partly the nervousness I saw in his early-game. Also, after Mathdino's case and his post that he had reaction-tested NSG, his answers appeared to be "calculated", or how can I say.

[Aneninen]

I left this out:

also UNVOTE: because I'm liking Aneni's solviness currently

Solviness? Whutlol. Right now I think I'm one of the least useful players here.

[Aneninen]

I've stopped reading Mutantdevle's 683 at its 2/3, BUT

This. Is. Regardless. Of. Card.

I may have lost my focus. I may not be able to form reads. But even I could see that Gamma was after me, questioned me and he had reasons. But obviously, "not well enough".

VOTE: Mutantdevle

[Aneninen]

@Anen: is that a fancy way of saying mutant is tunneling you

Firstly, Gamma. Not me.
Secondly, tunnelling =/= Regardless of Card.
The first one is a relentless attack. The second one is a relentless attack plus

making a scumread out of everything the other player says

. Check out the fictional example on my Wiki.

[Aneninen]

@Anen: How many games have you played with Town!Me? And how many with Scum!Me?

I don't remember all of my old games, I must admit, but I'm sure we met at least once and you were town. (I might have been scum in one game. Or SK?)
But, what's more important, you were in Large 210 too! Even if you were there for a short time only (which was definitely our fault lol), your posts were entirely different than here. (For the others: I'm talking about the same game where Brass was in too.)

[Aneninen]

Also @Anen do you mean me when you say brass

Yeah. Same slot. Sorry.

[Aneninen]

Spoiler: Long answer for NSG

The expression mini-wagon is pigeon poop in itself so I was ignoring that.

you didn't explain how it was "nervous".¹

it would only truly be rolefishing if someone declared intent to hammer, which i don't often see happen with early game wagons and anyone declaring intent on one would most likely be met with pretty quick unvotes / votes on them. with that in mind i think this accusation rings hollow.

Not really.
Quite a lot of players tend to claim when they're at L–1 without a hammer intent because lol-hammering is always a chance. Actually, there are a couple of players who claim before reaching L–1. Especially if they think the wagon itself is terrible. I myself did that before, at least once.

let's go back to your original point. you said that jmo's:

Hey, at least we are getting someone to L-1 and we aren't stagnant anymore!

was scummy because scum care about rolefishing and getting people to L-1 accomplishes that. did you notice that the person he was talking about getting to L-1 was... himself?²

what's more, do you think that jmo, as scum, with a plan to get people to L-1 to rolefish, would just openly say in the thread how satisfied he was at that? the fact that he mentioned that makes me think that, even if he were scum, he didn't have any specific rolefishing plan in mind – if he did, he would've likely taken care to

not

mention it. guilty conscience, and all that.³

(1) You seemed to be afraid of getting wagoned. However, apart from very few cases, wagons on the very first pages are based upon RVS-votes and pigeon poop reasoning. Scum usually care more about these wagons than townies do.
(2) No, I didn't. No idea, why. (Just a guess: I might not have noticed that Jmo and jmo16mla were the same. Almost50 asked about you but accidentally typed RSG or something like that. I was pondering for a long time who was RSG. Then I got it that he'd meant NSG.) Feel free to meta-me, such things are typical of me, regardless of my alignment.
(3) You may be right here. It would have been very scummy if he'd started such blatant rolefishing. However, sometimes scum can get away with the most obvious things, especially on early-Day1. Also, I have seen town-PRs getting outed by scum-driven L–1s. Once on Page1!

do you think it's impossible that that's actually how he feels as town? if not, do you think it's more likely to come from scum than town? if so, why? if not, then why treat it as a scumtell?

No, it's not impossible, but yet again, I've seen scum saying such things with the same meaning: "I'm not scummy, it's just my playstyle". (This is especially common whenever scum get too many scumreads very early. When there are no real cases to respond to and no low-hanging fruit townies to push yet.)

anyway mutant/gamma/anen makes me not want to read the thread anymore tbh
one of them is almost definitely scum for carrying this shit on

It's clear that you haven't read that part (which is, to tell the truth, quite understandable). Compared to Gamma and Mutant I hardly said anything. There was a lot of talk

about

me, though.
Which leads us to your next line. If you still will read my posts, you'll find out who the scum is. TL;DR: about 80% of Mutant's case is based upon Gamma's scumread on me. He dropped the scumread later and he got called scummy because of dropping it. That's what I call Regardless of Card.

Mrs. Marpleing is a form of meta tell where if you see a newbie acting like someone did as a specific alignment there's a decent chance they're the same alignment. Check Anen's wiki for a better description.

That's not only for newbies, it works on players I've never played with before.
However, all the tells detailed on my Wiki are questioned by many players.

KK.
Sorry for being so flip floppy about this but after ISOing Gamma and looking more into interactions he's most likely town.
Now, reading into math, I'm almost sure he's scum, with pocketing, fluff, and trying to look active and helpful without much content. In particular, he dismissed my scumread of him calling it a common thing where if you were tricked by them you think they're scum. I don't see town motivation behind his posts, and I don't see his long-term and short-term goals, especially the gambit as he himself admitted that it didn't really work, as coming from a town-oriented mindset here. Dino, why are you working so hard to dismiss Luca and my scumreads of you in the eyes of other players?
VOTE: Mathdino
I don't see a math/luca scumteam here, but I think math could quite possible be scum with anyone else with the possible exception of gamma. I feel math has almost scumclaimed.

Whom has Mathdino pocketed?
What if his short-term goal is to get a read on everyone?
Who many players are there whose long-term goals you can see?
Where did he almost scumclaimed?

[Aneninen]

There's my answer for your question partially, if you still care. Earlier I had a townread on Mathdino, because I thought his whole argument with Luca was mostly about playstyle differences.

what about the argument being over playstyle differences than anything actually scummy made math town, to you?

I'm not sure if I can comprehend this question well.

Right now I don't know what to think. He posts a lot and I must admit I haven't always read everything from him. Yet he could be scum too. However, I wouldn't lynch him on Day1. If he's town we'll gain a lot from his reads later as long as he's alive. If he's scum, I don't think he'd get to LyLo because sooner or later it would turn out that his reads are pigeon poop.

i gut scumread this

a lot

.

Firstly, I had the similar feeling when I see your post which I called "nervous".
However, if I got your question above well, this was my answer. If not, rephrase it, please.

If you need more explanation, here it comes.
There are players who appear to be hard-working enough (or whom I know well) to make me think they could have excellent reads later. However, there's always a chance that they're scum. You may know the feeling: effort is not an alignment tell.
Mathdino's one of these.
In case of town-Mathdino, the more he lives the more useful reads he'll give. Lynching him because he may be scum hurts town a lot.
In case of scum-Mathdino, we'll have more information later. There will be flips, which means: associations. Flips will sooner or later reveal whether his train of thoughs were (and is) genuine or made up by scum.

Generally said: I think

the difference between Day1 and Day2 is much bigger than the difference between Day2 and any later Day

. Let's say, for example, I'll get lynched on Day1. No matter that I haven't managed to get too many reads, after my flip you'll know that my posts came from a

townie

. Also, the fact of the flip tells us a lot.

Why

did I get lynched?

(Side-note. In Mathdino's case I'm overly cautious. He has already talked about the game where he was Cop-cleared and I Vigged him.)

also i would assume aneninen is trying to come up with some kind of justification for not scumreading me, rather than justifying why he's townreading me

See above!

let's play a game, everyone – someone tell me the difference between this post:

(Two readlists from Pinturicchio)

Apart from the format of the posts I can't see much difference. He was town there.

[Aneninen]

Whom has Mathdino pocketed?
What if his short-term goal is to get a read on everyone?
Who many players are there whose long-term goals you can see?
Where did he almost scumclaimed?

1) Me. It's extremely obvious in 437
2) That's the thing. His short-term goals don't look like they're to get reads on people. From my perspective, these are looking like they're to

look

like they're trying to get reads on people.
3) None that I could see clearly, otherwise I'd instantly know their alignments. It's hazy, but I feel that I can see an Anti-town mindset in dino.
4) Multiple times; the blatant pocketing, the failed gambit, focusing on two players... I could see dino+NSG being a scumteam here.

(1) Mh-hm. Could be.
(2) That can be cleared easily.

Mathdino

what's your readlist now?
(3) You may or may not be right.
(4) What gambit? 737 was a joke, I guess. As for his focus, see my answer for (2). As for NSG, I'm in a conversation with him right now. It will either strengthten or weaken my previous (not too firm) scumread.

look i'm just gonna pretend i'm being useful right now
just lost a game, might hit a slump for the IRL day

Why did you post a vote count after these lines? "Pretending to be useful"? Besides, there was a Vote Count on the same Page and Gamma quoted it in the post just above of yours.

i'm just gonna pretend i'm being useful right now

I'm not. I'm just making it known that I'm still alive and haven't flaked.

do you want to talk to paradox about the possibility of a mathdino/NSG scumteam in which mathdino claims scum by faking a gambit

No. I'd rather with the Anen lynch

These two posts together are simply...

Spoiler:

POOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOP!

Lol no. Just because that's what I spent the most time talking about doesn't mean it's my main argument.

What if I told you players might have a thing called:

read progression

?
Let's talk about something else. Do you think Almost50 has that?

[Aneninen]

RAGE ON

NOW
I'VE FUCKING STOPPED CARING ABOUT THIS GAME.

Let me explain, why.

There haven't been a fucking case presented against me.

I have three votes: one from Creature who HAS NEVER talked to me. One from Almost50, who spat out that I'm scum because I'm scum. So far he has asked ONE question from me, which I have answered. HE HAS NEVER GIVEN A FUCKING REACTION TO THAT. Aaaaaaaaaaand we have Mathdino who HAS NEVER EXPLAINED his read either, apart from "that's PoE". Yet he's started to find my PARTNERS. Frankly, WHAT THE FUCK, MATH? You know, whenever I do fucking partner analyses without a scum flip all the town tell me "that's bullshit and empty speculation without a scumflip".

The only person who has acutally POSTED a case about me was Gamma. I gave answers. Isn't it strange that he's not on my wagon? Luca asked questions and if it has ANY fukcing use I'll answer that.

But there is NOTHING to answer for these events. There have been plenty of talk ABOUT me and plenty of talk AT me. However, those who are scumreading me have never talked TO me.

I've always hated these kind of games, and I'm telling you why.
Even if I stay alive, NOONE WILL GIVE A SHIT TO MY POSTS.
I COULD point out a lot of things. As a start, I could link you my latest rage where I was town and games where I was scum and got wagoned early. You COULD see the difference. IF YOU FUCKING CARED.

BUT

I won't give a shit to a game where no matter what I do it doesn't change anything. NOT BECAUSE I WANT TO STAY ALIVE. I don't fucking care. (I would say it would be better to Vig me and lynch scum, but you would call that scummy because Aneninen is scum because he is scum.) It's because even if I'm alive my posts would be worth SHIT. That is not fun, you must admit.
And I WON'T spend hours to tell things only to see no fucking person answers them. I WON'T spend ours to answer questions if no fukcing person would actually THINK about my answers.

I know these kind of games happen every now and then. But I'm not obligated to put any effort into these. Because IT WOULD BE FUCKING POINTLESS.

RAGE OFF

I'm willing to answer posts like Luca's IF I'm asked to do so. But only until I can see that my answers MATTER.
Otherwise, I refuse to do anything unless I start to feel: it's NOT one of those games.

[Aneninen]

Mobepost.
I saw NSG asking things. When I have time I'll answer them.
Also Luca's questions if it's still needed.

[Aneninen]

@Northsidegal

.

There's a general answer for everything you asked.

In early-game, my reads are usually based upon small things. Gut, meta (no matter how old it is), general tells, my tells explained on the Wiki, reactions, phrasing, whatever.
These reads are generally flexible and I tend to reconsider them later. I still post them, not only to keep the game going, but also because the reactions I get. Sometimes a half-baked reason for a vote provocates a scummy reaction (which confirms my read) or a very town reaction (which makes me drop my scumread).
As the game progresses, there will be more information. More content, flips, associations, PR-actions. Reads based upon these are obviously stronger.

These boil down to the fact, that there are things which I consider important or "big" tell eg. early-Day1, but not informative eg. on Day3. Sometimes even my early- and late gameplay are entirely different. In other words, I'm typically a slow player who gains momentum later. I know it sounds lame

now

, but my early-gameplay is weak, whereas my late-gameplay is strong. (Which makes me an average player, regardless of my alignment.)

This, and many other things can be found in my Team Mafia game (already linked once). You needn't read my whole ISO there to see how different my Day1 and my Day2 were.

And now, the specific answers.

No, it's not impossible, but yet again, I've seen scum saying such things with the same meaning: "I'm not scummy, it's just my playstyle". (This is especially common whenever scum get too many scumreads very early. When there are no real cases to respond to and no low-hanging fruit townies to push yet.)

you didn't actually answer the more important part:

if not, do you think it's more likely to come from scum than town? if so, why? if not, then why treat it as a scumtell?

This was about Mutant, as far as I can remember.
It was scummy, because I've seen this kind of reasoning from scum many times before.
Now, apply the part above for this. I haven't played with Mutantdevle yet, so I don't know what sort of player he is. I've seen posts like those of him from scum. Therefore, this is scummy.

But

, it was a "relatively big" tell only because it was on early-Day1. Not because it would sound differently on eg. Day3. But, by that time we'd have much more content from Mutant. Most probably, I would have a read on him based upon bigger things. I don't think such a post would mean a lot compared to those "bigger things".

I'm not sure if I can comprehend this question well.

basically, why does their argument being about playstyle differences actually make them town?

Yet again, early-Day1.
I saw a wall-war between Luca and Mathdino. The parts I checked were about playstyle, eg. "is meta useful", "L–1 claiming", etc. I thought it was town-vs-town partly because of the content I'd checked, partly gut. And partly something else: I doubted players like them would get involved in such fights as scum. Either of them could have moved on easily.
Also, the "see above" part in practice.

I find Mathdino much scummier now. Most importantly because of something I've already expressed: (1) he had a

PoE

scumread on me, (2) he

didn't even try

to talk to me (and he didn't ask questions either), (3) and he asked others to find

my partners

. If anyone else had done so, a player like Mathdino would

definitely

pointed it out how bad their gameplay had been! So, this gameplay from him was either bad-town or scum, and I don't think Mathdino's usual townplay is bad...
This read now trumps my earlier read based upon that Luca–Mathdino war. (Which might be trumped by something more important later.)
The sad part of this case that it would have been

much more

credible if someone else had posted about it first.

do you make this point about players often? if so, could you just list some games where you remember doing this? you don't have to link me to the post itself or anything.

Definitely.
In the game linked above I had similar "read" on RadiantCowbells. (TL;DR: I don't think I'd be able to sort them on Day1. Let's give him a free pass, if he's town he'll help a lot later, if he's scum we'll catch him later.) He flipped scum anyway.

I guess you'll find more examples in my meta if needed.

[Aneninen]

You think PoE scumhunting is scummy? It's not like I can just read you straight up normally.

I find it difficult to interact with your walls, since I'm not a serial wallposter anymore.

Because I'm hunting by PoE, it makes it all the more important to ensure that any potential scumread has possible partners. If no one really works as a partner, then something about my/Creature's/A50's view of the gamestate is flawed.

1. Do not misrepresent me. PoE-scumhunting, not interacting with your scumread, trying to find a PoE-scumread's partners and getting others to do so are scummy

together

.

2. It might have been better to ignore the next part. But still... whenever I'm nearby anyone can have "semi real time" interaction with me. Without walls. And I don't think you're a player who should complain about wallposts.

3/1.

"Because I'm hunting by PoE, it makes it all the more important to ensure that any potential scumread has possible partners."

=/=

"Find Aneninen partners for me? He just ended a scumgame, PT shows high willingness to bus."

3/2. If you're talking about this game, you were cherry-picking as well. You've completely ignored the fact eg. that I was away from the Day1 scumlynch. In the PT, it was Rb who wanted to bus a lot, not me.

3/3. I don't think there has

ever

been a single game with players with

no

possible scum partners. (Minus PR-confirmed townies.)

4. If those who are scumreading you can find a possible partner for you, will that mean that their view of the gamestate is

correct

? Frankly, what you're saying is pigeon poop.

[Aneninen]

I've just taken a look at the game (so I haven't read all the new things) but I saw something.

The slots I'm working on are:
Aneninen
mutant
Gamma
Luca
Pintu

If you notice anything that helps in townclearing them, that would actually be super helpful.

Erm... there are five slots you're working on but I'm still a PoE scumread.

But

, more importantly, having seen this something came into my mind.

@Aneninen: I can show you what I've got so far.
Prototype reads list
Almost50: Probtown
Aneninen: still sorting

Creature: still sorting

Gamma: nullscum but i clearly can't read this guy
Jay: can't read this guy but if I had to guess, town
jmo: townlean, the lurking is NAI
Luca: null, but even if he were scum people wouldn't lynch him with me so w/e
mutant: still sorting
NSG: waiting on new meta to sort this
pintu: still sorting
Paradox: locktown

fuck it, you know what

i trust creature

and A50 significantly more than i trust anyone on the gamma wagon
VOTE: Aneninen
also i think my aneninen tell works slightly better than random
choo choo guys

You

did not

mention Creature between those two posts.
Creature

did not

post anything between those two posts.
Your read progression on Creature made no sense.

Also,

*raises hand*
I've been reading Anen's posts, just not the triple wall v wall v wall of the last few pages or so.
I might go back and actually digest it all soon.

I'll check later, when I have time whether that has happened by now.

[Aneninen]

I've been away because of work.

Am I still alive?
Does anyone care if I post?

I'll only check the game (and reply to questions if you point them out) if the answer for both questions are yes.

If either of them is no, I won't do anything. Sorry, but in this case it wouldn't only be a waste of time. It would be a waste of electricity. In this case, you'll find my opinion about this game in the Dead Topic. Even if you all are going to hate me because of thatm.

[Aneninen]

Jay: I know.

But right now I seriously doubt if I did anything that would change anything.

I took a look while I was working and I saw no cases. Players are sheeping sheeping players. That's all I can see. Even during a brief look at all the pages I saw plenty of scummy posts from almost all of you. (You're no exception.) Would it be worth pointing the out? I'd spend hours with posting only to face the fact: noone would care.

[Aneninen]

Mobilepost.

Can someone summarize the cases behind the wagons for me, please?

By the way, I'm busy IRL. That's why I'm not too active. You can check my other games to confirm this.

[Aneninen]

I believe

Math started your wagon -

something about people not pushing your wagon when they could have, meaning you must be scum

. I don't particularly agree with this, but I think you're a good chance to flip scum for my own reasons which I covered in my ISO'ing, which I guess boils down to little content despite some big looking posts, and some dubious reasoning behind your reads. Add to that throwing the toys out of your pram after being wagoned - it's not something that I saw as a Townie reaction.

Pin - NSG started the wagon

with little or no reasoning, from what I can remember

. What generally seemed to spark it was his comment that he didn't want to vote you for fear it might risk Jay, who he's not even townreading. I've personally been very torn on Pin throughout, but now he's claimed VT he's fair game for the vig.

Mutant -

Math/A50 for some reason wanted to start this wagon up, despite already having the two wagons we required. I don't remember much reasoning, other than your reaction seemed town to Math which meant either me or Mutant could be scum

...I've personally been torn on Mutant but his recent posting seems townie.

I've highlighted some parts to show you all: instead of cases there are votes thrown at players. As for some of us, there are a lot of talk

about

us,

at

us, but rarely

with

us. You

did

ask things from me, and I asked whether you wanted answers. I don't think there was a yes for that. (If contrary, point it out, where.) I had a conversation with NSG and Gamma. That's all. All the others are sheeping each others in circles.

I'm constantly ignored. It's strange that even

you

don't remember that it was

me

who started the Mutant-case. Even the VC shows that.

That'swhy I refuse to put effort into this game. Players are voting for me, removing their votes and voting for someone else (with no case provided either), and it's happening even when I don't post anything.
(Okay, to tell the truth, I've been thinking and this situation would be just as annoying if I were scum. So I guess my attitude is not an alignment tell after all.)

However, there's an explanation for this Day1.

I'm giving

one

single example from both players I'm talking about. (I could have chosen many other posts, too.)

Guys, relax, is just a game and I get it, I'm not going anywhere. I'm having fun nevertheless; if I weren't, I would've replaced out long ago, after my first readlist. But let's keep things going: I may be dead, but I haven't lost the game as this is a team game, so go on and push another wagon. Just to be clear: I don't think this "push a wagon till getting a claim" is the best strategy at all. Also, I'm following my own reads right now and put my vote on A50, as I'm really tired of his vig softclaims that could justify his lack of content and voting for anyone who's getting pushed without explaining himself. Maybe it's a playstyle thing, but whatever.
VOTE: Almost50

EXACTLY

what I was looking for!
The vote that was parked there for a long time only to jump off the wagon when it started to build momentum.
@Jay/@Dino: Does this remind you of anything at all??

However, I am now much more confident in Pintu being Scum. I can't tell if he was parked on a partner or is trying to hop off a mislynch wagon.
I say we

lynch Pintu & Vig mutant

(so we know we've hurt scum BEFORE the night phase for sure)
VOTE: pintu

@pintu: i'll listen to your reads if i'm still alive btw

hope you don't fall into the "fuck the community for D1 lynching me" mindset tbh
the first game i played with hyper-experienced players got me D1 lynched for bullshit reasons
sometimes it's more about charisma than anything else, which can be annoying but things get better

Mathdino and Almost50 are simply everywhere, manipulating the whole game, scumreading players regardless of their posts and giving pigeon poop explanations. (Eg. the quoted post from Almost50.)
Those were mere examples.

Just check their ISOs and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Also, there's a chance that Mathdino was coaching Pinturicchio in that particular post. But my best guess is that the scumteam is Almost50, Mathdino and Mutantdevle. There's something that underpins this: the whole tunnelling against me started shortly after I started scumreading Mutantdevle. (If I'm wrong about either of them, gun-to-head read would be Jaydragon or Pinturicchio. As for the latter, see above. As for the former, she's the one who seems to sheep either Mathdino or Almost50 all the time.)

Most of the other players are simply following them. (This may be happening because of the overwhelming amount of content from Mathdino, which makes the game hardly readable. But I'm not sure whether it's true.)

At least TRY to remember this post later!

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mathdino

I'm willing to return Mutantdevle anytime or vote for Almost50 if he gets wagoned. I may lynch Pinturicchio or Jaydragon if I have to.

[Aneninen]

Not gonna lie, this lynch feels wrong
But I just don't see other viable lynches right now with 3 days on the deadline
I guess A50 could be scum but we're not d1 lynching him
I'm pretty low on townreads :/

Every single line is scummy here.

No other viable lynches? As if you hadn't pushed those wagons!
Almost50 could be scum but we're not lynching him? A preemptive post in case of Almost50 gets caught earlier than you.
Pretty low on townreads? And I was a PoE read and you even tried to search for partners for me!
Frankly,

why is anyone townreading him?

Actually, the more I read his posts the surer I am that he knows the alignment of all of us clearly.

it's not as if you're going to agree with my scumread of you.

Regardless of what I answer...

I was aware your vote was sitting on Mutant, but that seemed pretty inconsequential to the recent wagon that formed on him.

Inconsequential? Yeah. I actually had (and have) a case on him. Oh wait, I know! It's not the way how this game goes!

Why are "WE" not D1 lynching A50???? Because you say so? Because he's not expendable like me or Aneninen?? That's what's going on this game's D1 tbh. Just kill us already without trying to be sweet with us, if you want to play only with experienced players, don't let us in in the first place.

Now I'm 99% that he's town.

I did the SAME f-cking terrible thing in my very first Newbie. (I'm not proud of it but it happened.) I got a lot of scumread on me, "managed" to mislynch Thor on Day1 (who was town, obviously), on Day3 I found the remaining scum and at LyLo I explained the whole f-cking game... but noone believed me. Why? Because on Day1 I kept shouting (and later wallposting too) that the experienced players are scum and want to get rid of all the newbies.
Pinturicchio. Do not be the same aßhole that I was in that game!

Anen, it makes little sense to me how you went from "I don't care anymore, you won't listen to me anyway" too "I'll accuse Dino of treason when he has become the face of the town", even with me saying I wanted you to post a readlist. Not really gonna comment on the scumread you have on me. Or that it was me who was the prime advocate of a serious Mutant Lynch early today.

Why does it make little sense?
Your problem was that I wasn't doing anything. Now I'm doing something and it makes no sense. Need I repeat myself: regardless of what I post...

If you wanted a readlist, I missed it. As I said, I hadn't read the game thoroughly, partly because of in-game reasons, partly because of IRL reasons. That'swhy I said: point it out if there's something I need to reflect to.
Why did you worry about that scumread? You weren't even in the Top3? That sounded weird.

[Aneninen]

Jaydragonking, if you still want a readlist, I'll post that tomorrow. (Not capital T)

[Aneninen]

I might have misunderstood you but if I answered your post about me which took place a couple of days ago, would it change anything?

Also, call me pelutant if you wish, but at least I had a CASE against Mutantdevle. (As for this, NSG and Gamma had cases against me. Don't you find it strange that neither Almost50 nor Mathdino referred to them? Nor those who were sheeping him?)

[Aneninen]

I would say I'm more likely to get a read on you based on your real-time interactions now; my scumread on you based on my ISO'ing wasn't strong or set in stone by any stretch - I just considered you a decent lynch option.

It's 1:35 am here and I've indeed had a lot to do IRL. Maybe at the weekend.
However, if I'm merely a "decent option", who would be a "good option" from your PoV?

I trust Almost the least out of Dino-Almost-Luca, if that helps. Again, going by Meta (oh so flawed as it is), he's always had a strong opinion as Town, yet this is the most amount of time he's just Sheeping people when I thought he would be up there with Dino and Luca in terms of content.

It does help.
Why do you trust Mathdino and Luca?
Do you think Almost is sheeping others more times than others?

I also find the notion that 'a case is needed to lynch someone' outdated; good players won't give you a chance to make a case on them as they naturally won't do many scummy things, and if you do make a case they'll be equipped to refute everything.

I seriously disagree with this.
(1) Even good players make mistakes
(2) Even the best player can not be prepared for every possible thing could be brought up in a case.
(3) Reactions matter too. (Especially in connection with (2), like the good old "scumreading the right one, but because of wrong reasons")
(4) Other things, like timing, phrasing, etc. matter too.
But I don't think we have time for this discussion right now.

Scum actually like cases as it gives them something to logically deny/twist; the fact a wagon can build up on them based on stuff like PoE is something that they fear.

So, do you think it's scummy if I'm getting annoyed by a PoE read?
If so, that's pigeon poop.
As a townie, what do I have to do after getting a PoE scumread? (Especially after a sheer PoE had been sheeped by others too!) Something like "oh my, it's okay, just let's lynch me, thanks, bye"? Don't you think it's possible that it's just as annoying for a townie?
Besides, read my posts back. I'm not upset because of the caselesss scumread. I'm upset because I've been feeling that most of my reads and thoughts are getting ignored just because they're coming from my slot. (Hence the tense; if it's about to change my attitude will change, too.) I'd care shyt about getting lynched if I knew that my posts mattered later. (If you don't believe this, just check my Team Mafia game, linked before.)

[Aneninen]

Just a couple of things.

Where did I actually have a case against you?

From 276. Discrediting you and quoting things out of context. It's strange that you don't remember.

1. Well, I've pushed for a Math lynch for most of the day but most think he's Town, so I'm leaving that thought for another day. Other than that you and Mutant are probably the next best options, at the moment.

2. I'm not saying cases are always bad, but you don't

need

to have a case to justify lynching someone, imo - for example, if you wanted to lynch Jay you couldn't ever make much of a case, other than that he posts fluff and irrelevant stuff, which he does as either alignment.

3. No, I never said it's scummy you are annoyed by a PoE scumread - I was talking theoretically.

1. Where's that "most"? What if there were a small amount of players (including Mathdino) who narrowed the lynch pool to very few names without real reasoning?
2. There's a

huge

difference between situations where a 1–2 players are sheeping others who have a case against someone and situations where most players have no cases and players are sheeping them. Here, the latter is happening.
3. Okay, let's see it

theoretically

, from

your point of view

. You think I'm scum. Please, explain the

differences

you would experience from town-Aneninen getting wagoned without a cases on Day1! Also, explain the

differences

you'd see from

any

player in this situation.

pintu already claimed and he's never getting nightkilled; call it a policy vig but it's kind of a policy vig at this point

Policy Vig. Yeah. Are you suggesting the Vig not scumhunting?

also shooting null VTs is great vigplay idk what you're talking about

Which would be worth more, I guess. (Even if still not scumhunting.)
Shouldn't we see the flip and let the Vig pick someone

afterwards

?

and i'm townreading jmo

No surprise. He'll be a great mislynch later for you, won't he?

Aneninen promised a readlist "tommorow", aka day 2. I am positive he's scum at this point trying a last second stall.

Are you misrepresenting me intentionally?
I pointed out

tomorrow, not Tomorrow

. I'm obviously scummy because of saying that when it's way past midnight IRL here. (And that tomorrow is today now. Also Today. If you care.)

the wallposters are in fact anen/mutant/gamma

Luca, Mathdino...

I don't see what makes Anen's frustration Townie.

See above. Same post.

[Aneninen]

Jay, Anen is trying to counter wagon Math, not Mutant.

It's also obviously my fault that most players ignored my thoughts about Mathdino.
Also, I've expressed that I'd join the Mutant-wagon anytime.
Luca, you're not scumreading me. You

want

to scumread me. The question is: why.

the point is this: even if pintu is town, he is going to get mislynched at some point if we leave him alive
this is basically true of anyone that gets run up to L-1 and claims VT

Alternatively, there's another explanation.
Pintu is VT for real and the scum want the Vig remove him. Then the scum can perform a more valuable Nightkill and they're safe from the Vig-shot too.

paradox i guess is policyviggable

Policy Vig-able because he's voting for you or because he's not buying the pigeon poop going on for days?

For your information: later on the same page Mathdino's trying to manipulate the Vig in a way which favours him. I don't think that would make sense from town-him. At this point I seriously consider self-hammering, because at least that would not be two birds with one stone for the scum.

[Aneninen]

I'm an idiot.

Not only because I thought Almost50 was scum and Pinturicchio was town.
But also because I stopped reading the game about a day before the lynch. I obviously thought I'd be lynched by the time I was back from work (or did it take place at night for me?) and after the lynch I thought I'd be Vig-killed.

I'll start to check Today's posts. Right now, I'm skipping the last part of Day1 (I don't have much time), but someone could give me a short summary about those events. Also, ask questions and I'll try to answer.

[Aneninen]

... atleast it worked out well?

?

I feel like a discussion is in order of how in the hell we ended up not hanging Anen but still shooting the Backup Jailkeeper anyway.

You can only be the second most surprised about that. See my previous post!

this mafia is clearly shit at finding power roles if they shot creature of all people

Alternatively, they thought they had been in no danger and wanted to perform a non-informative Nightkill. (?)

jailkeeper will continue to protect me until 1 mafia left

Why?

scum is in {NSG, Jay, Luca, Anen} in descending order

Can you explain that? Also, why I'm not in the Top 3?

I guess this is the most relevant vc to analyse.

Note here that all six votes came within half a page of each other (page 45). I guess the most likely bus would either be NSG, not expecting the wagon to pick up such pace, or Jay looking to put it to L-1 before someone else could.

jmo16mla

(2): Creature 1009, Gamma Emerald 1010

Aneninen

(1): pinturricchio 1090

mutantdevle

(1): Aneninen 689

Mathdino

(1): TheGoldenParadox 743

JaydragonKing

(1): jmo16mla 1068

pinturicchio

(6): northsidegal 1101, mutantdevle 1110, Luca Blight 1111, Mathdino 1112, Almost50, Jay

Not Voting: no one

Hm. Let me think. it's unlikely that both of them. Why did you rule out Mutant and Mathdino?

let's be honest here guys scum is no matter what in the set of people that heavily suggested not shooting pintu

Are you talking about the Vig-shot alone?
Because there were a few players townreading him. Including me.

Jay was the one to initally propose not shooting Pin, and kept briniging it up, although obviously I was inclined to agree as I was townreading him at the end.

Pin's comment that he didn't want to vote Anen if it meant risking Jay stood out to me, though. I'm thinking Anen/Jay/NSG is where to look today.

Can you link those posts? I know I'm on your scumlist, but still.

right so jay is clearly scum
paradox townread is nullified but he's not scum with aneninen
aneninen, luca, and NSG i guess can be townish for now

A kind of note-to self. I'll read that post later.

Saying "I'm dying no matter what" is true, but do realize the reasoning for why I'm going to die, Dino. It's not because I'm scum or because the Vigilante is shooting me.

???
Where did it come from?

[Aneninen]

hey aneninen who's the scum on the a50 wagon
was there scum at all on the pintu wagon
who's the scum on your wagon

do you now have an ounce of faith in my reads and my "manipulation"

o yeah and who we lynchin'

I put this post here for later so as not to forget about it.

But I can answer my read on you quickly: so far two of my reads turned out to be pigeon poop so I don't think I should trust any of my Day1 reads. Which means, I'm not sure whether you're town but until I get some useful reads townreading you can be a work hypothesis for Today.

[Aneninen]

I'm at work now.
I've only took a look on the game. It's obvious that it's my last Day alive, so if you don't mind, give me some time so that I could post a readlist. Also, answering Mathdino's. These will be useful later.

Also, VT.

[Aneninen]

Sorry. I've missed the most important. About 6 hours later I'll post.

[Aneninen]

Firstly

New posts of Day2.

Creature was super obv-VT. But yeah, he was shot for being obvtown. Thinking they were in no danger would've been silly when pintu was already half-lynched.

You're right.
However... what if both scum were already on that wagon? I saw you'd collected all the wagons. I'll check whether there was another wagon in the L–3...L–1 zone at that time. If so, any scum could have jumped on it.

NSG is a lurksack playing strongly against town meta, who made no waves yesterday and potentially bussed pintu to unexpected success (returning to the shadows when the town wagoned other people all on their own).
Jay was just fucking openwolfing yesterday through and through, with:
- Open PR speculation
- Displaying a high willingness to sheep me yet not sheeping me when it counted (A50)
- Arguing that vig shouldn't shoot pintu despite being on the pintu wagon
- Scumreading A50 for godawful reasons
Luca is just confbias. When I get one scum right, it's usually because my early reads are good, and Luca was my early scumread.
My scumread on you is still just sheeped from others, combined with your blow up in the second half of D1 and reversing your read on me to defend pintu.

I'll check NSG later. I remember having a scumread on him earlier. (Why did I drop it?)
Those are strong things against Jay.
Luca is indeed conf-bias. Let me examine his votes.
As for me, I thought Pintu's rage was town, because I had done the same as a new player. On Day1 I strongly thought Almost and you had been taking over the town. You may call it a kind of conf-bias, but at that time I thought Almost was scum.

i couldn't tell you honestly. i thought i had made a post about the anen / mutant wagons when they happened, but the entire a50 wagon happened between the last time i checked the thread and seeing that the thread was locked.

The question is: was Pintu in danger at that time or not? If not, Mutant may be scum. I was away at that time but the whole Almost wagon was way too quick and less logical than anything had happened before.

Oh hey that intent finally forces me to claim. Wonderful.

I've kinda tuned them out as well and have been posting non-game related stuff to get noticed and see if they'd jump for my throat so I could do something this game, but they are in their own world.

Fake

-claiming

Backup

Jailkeeper by the way.

Ummm... let me check whether there was a counterclaim.

Counterclaim jailkeeper. Checkmate friendo. I targeted Mathdino n1. I was debating not doing so because he was drawing it super-obviously but after A50's flip I decided he should be kept around. Also there's a crumb I left that Mathdino and I think mutant have both noted at this point. I can quote it if needed but honestly just ctrl-f jail in my ISO and you should find it.

I can see no universe where Gamma would counterclaim Jay as

scum

. But if Jay happens to flip Jailkeeper, Gamma's auto-lynch.

Right now I'm at Page67. If nothing extra-ordinary happens, consider my vote on Jay.
But I want to do other things before doing so.
Firstly, use that plenty of VC collected by Mathdino.

[Aneninen]

Secondly

VCA's
(I'm using Math's 1667 without quote tags to make it easier to read. Consider that "quote=..." there every time.)

Gamma Emerald (6)

~ jmo16mla, Pinturicchio, Mathdino, TheGoldenParadox, mutantdevle, Luca Blight
This is simply terrible. Pinturicchio was there and I guess at least one other scum was there too. (They must have had a hard time when I started hard-townreading Gamma.) Luca was indeed the L–1 but he unvoted quickly. (Not shown here.) Assuming Mathdino's town (see my work hypotheses posted previously) it's Jmo, Paradox and Mutantdevle. (Luca's not too likely because of that unvote.)

________

Pinturicchio (6)

~ northsidegal, mutantdevle, Luca Blight, Mathdino, Almost50, JaydragonKing
Before

and

after that I was at L–1. Which means, scum tried to save Pintu's aß by getting me lynched.

Mathdino said:

"The many forms of the Aneninen wagon. All players who were on it are: TheGoldenParadox, Mathdino, Luca Blight, Almost50, Gamma Emerald, JaydragonKing, Pinturicchio, mutantdevle"

Mutant

before

the Pintu-wagon, Gamma

after

that.

On both wagons: Mutant, Luca, Mathdino, Almost, Jay.
Only on Pintu: NSG
Only on me: Paradox, Gamma.
If Gamma's somehow not the JK, this looks bad on him, but we can ignore that for now. (We'd lynch him anyway if Jay flipped JK.)
This wagon movement looks definitely bad on Paradox. He was earlier on my wagon, not at L–1, though.
Mutant might be less likely scum because of this. He could have left the Pintu-wagon and jump on my one.

________

mutantdevle (5)

~ Aneninen, Gamma Emerald, Mathdino, Almost50, JaydragonKing

It's important to note that this wagon happened

after

the Pintu-wagon!
If Mutant is town, this may have been a counter to Pintu. If not, the only possibility if Mutant is scum-PR. (Or at least, it would have been a terrible scumplay to let a scum-PR lynched instead of a goon.) This looks bad on Jay. (And obviously, on me as well.)

________

Almost50 (6)

~ Pinturicchio, JaydragonKing, Luca Blight, mutantdevle, TheGoldenParadox, Gamma Emerald

Basically, any of these names can be scum. (Apart from Gamma, see above.)

TL;DR:

According to the VC's:
Jay and Paradox look much scummier.
Jmo, Luca and Mutant look somewhat scummier.
NSG looks less scummy.

As for "references": Mathdino looks much less scummy (which fits my work hypotheses), Gamma looks somewhat scummier (but now I'm ignoring this), Aneninen looks somewhat scummier (being only on the Mutant-wagon).

[Aneninen]

Don't feel bad. Even if you hadn't I was fine with it given a fakeclaim means after the fakeclaimer is lynched my role can be used to clear people.
And I can go for a NSG JK instead. That's my pick for now.

Don't jail me.

???

If I was scum I'd have done this as the Goon, not the Rolecop. But then again, if I had died today anyway the Rolecop wouldn't be able to use both kill someone AND copcheck for power roles. Not that it matters with a Jailkeeper revealed.

Thank you.

This means the third scum is someone we aren't talk about!

Both Jmo and Paradox fits this!
(Short explanation: if it were someone who's a possible Vig-target, Jay would never have faked Jailkeeper as scum. So, scum know that the third one, regardless of being a PR or not, will never get Vig-killed nor Jailed!)

HEAL: Luca Blight

...
okay my reads suck, and I suck, dino I owe you my vote.
we going jay, then? mess up his perfect scumstreak

VOTE: Jay

NO UNVOTE NOW JESUS CHRIST

HE IS GOING TO SELF HAMMER

PARADOX PLEASE STOP BEING A VI

!!!
IT'S PARADOX THEN!!!

I have to go to work, I stopped at Mathdino's 1721.

Lynch/vig/jail order:Lynch Jay
Vig Paradox
Jail mutant
*Assume Gamma dies*

Lynch Luca
Vig Aneninen*
Assume Vig, BRolecop, or Mathdino dies*

That puts us at 3p LyLo with some subset of {Mathdino, jmo, NSG, conftown mutant}, in which case we can lynch jmo (or whoever's not a power role).That should win it.

That's a sensible plan.

Two remarks.
(1) This may be better:

HURT: Paradox
HEAL: Jmo

If it's not Paradox, Jmo can't Nightkill. See above!

(2)

I should never get to LyLo!

If I did, there would be a LyLo between the scum, me, and someone who's either confirmed (there was a Nightkill and the JK was still alive) or not – but I look too scummy. If the scum are not (Jay + Paradox or Jmo), they would exploit this situation like hell and I'd simply lose the LyLo for town!!!

[Aneninen]

I need to go.

TL;DR of my recent's:

My scumreads are Jay and either Paradox or Jmo, most likely the first one. If I'm wrong, the third one is either Luca or Mutant. With a little luck, either the JK or the Backup Rolecop could solve the game if the latter case is true.
(Is Jay somehow flips town, it's Gamma and one of the same names above.)


If you have any other questions or other things I should talk about, I'll be back about 5 hours later. (Sorry, the day turned out to be busier than I'd thought.) If you want to finish the game, do so. If you think we need to move on and I'm the third scum, simply Vig me at Night2 instead of Night3.

[Aneninen]

Mobilepost.
Mathdino, either plan works for me.
Luca, ISO me, find Arkana and read the text below.

[Aneninen]

I'll catch up in a few hours.

[Aneninen]

It's... 4v2 MyLo. 1 Town Jailkeeper, 1 Backup Rolecop, and 2 VTs vs Mafia Rolecop and Mafia Goon.
Is our best strategy today to lynch Anen or Mutant and try to get a successful protection or roleblock from Gamma tonight?

Umm... wait-oh.
From a town point of view this would make very little sense. We have Mathdino (very unlikely scum), Luca (conf-town), Aneninen (possible scum), Gamma (conf-town), Paradox (following a town point of view, town) and Mutant (possible scum). Which means, town only needs to lynch Aneninen or Mutant (either will flip scum unless Mathdino is scum, which is unlikely) and have Gamma block the other one. That would not be a

try

. That would be a

win

.

Whoever is scum obviously had a good idea NSG was vig - missing a pr would have basically been game over for scum at this point.

Which means, they must have rolecopped NSG at Night1. (Or at least, I think trying to find the Vig is much worse strategy than Nightkilling a known PR.)

NSG made a terrible shot

At least he's out of the lynch pool.

What I'm wondering is what kind of scumteam thinks vig is actually a bigger threat to them than jailkeeper.

What if they knew after Day2 either of them wouldn't be JK-ed? Assuming they found NSG at Night1, the Role Cop had no further use for them. It wasn't important any more who performs the Nightkill.

If it isn't obvious by VCA alone that the scumteam is literally {mutant, Paradox} idk what to tell you.

I can't see that at the VCA, but I can't imagine any other possibility. Unless you're scum with either of them. But I'm ignoring this possibility right now, because it's much less likely than Mutant and Paradox as scum team.

Aneninen is basically conftown from that alone. I refuse to believe pintu is THAT good at scum.
Pick whichever of mutant/Paradox you think I'm more likely to be partners with if you're not confident about me. Since I'm literally trying to prove I'm not scum with mutant, I'd figured that'd be him, but w/e.
Lynch mutant, jail Paradox. If there's a kill somehow, it's Aneninen vs me. If there's no kill, lynch Paradox.

I'm not conf-town. My situation is the same as yours, but from the other way around. So, (1) Luca should decide who's scummier, Mathdino or me and (2) vote for one of (Mutant, Paradox) who he thinks is more possible partner for (Mathdino, Aneninen).

Gamma who did you jail last night?

you
also wtf nsg?

I may be tinfoiled, but this fits the picture. Mutant performed the Nightkill then.

I also have no idea why they would rolecop NSG over me for example.
Granted, if the team is mutant/Paradox, I guess I'd expect them to make bad night actions.

Meta?

Aneninen was doing it so I figured "what the hell".

Our game had been over at that time.

Going on soon.

[Aneninen]

NSG made a terrible shot

It's mutant/Paradox, and

gammas jail tonight will give us the 1 mislynch to solve it

(referring to the bold).

Umm no, that's not how it works. If we lynch wrong today then we've as good as lost IMO. If today's lynch ends up as town then Gamma will have 3 players to potentially jail. Even though it's a 2/3 chance of jailing scum, only one of them is going to be performing the kill.

A town flip means Gamma's jail will decide the game with only a 1/3 chance of winning.

We shouldn't be so careless about this lynch.

I'm also not comfortable having the lynch be between myself and Paradox. Anen should be included in the pool as well.

I think you and TGP are both town but TGP less so; by PoE that must mean TGP is scum but I am far more confident in Anen and that's who I want lynched today.

I should basically be conf town once mutant flips scum

And when I don't flip scum it means the game is over.

Whut?
If we lynch town, the town has 1/3 chance. (By the way, it's not entirely true but I'm not telling you why.)
We shouldn't choose between you and Paradox.
If you don't lynch scum, the game is over.

This doesn't add up at all from a town point of view.
However, this kind of panic makes

perfect

sense if Mutant and Paradox are scum.

Why would you be unwilling to lynch Paradox then if you don't think Math/Anen is the scumteam?

!!!!!!!!

However, there's still the possibility that scum could A) slime their way out of it to win or B) you are also scum.

And this is how a scum tries to widen the lynch-pool to save himself

and

his buddy too.

had vig literally just been a named townie, we'd have lynched pintu D1, Jay D2, and mutant D3, leaving us in a better situation with fewer townies dead

At least it wasn't me who drew the Vig. Had it been so, we would have lost the game by now...

Pedit2: Okay, I'll take up your offer on sheeping you on Paradox. I guess I kinda owe it to you after ignoring what you said about A50. But if you're wrong about this then you have no right to ever tell me to sheep you again on my town reads in any future games.

VOTE: TheGoldenParadox

Voting for the scumbuddy unwillingly. That's what I can see here.

In the world where Anen and Math are scum, either of you voting will cause Anen to hammer and we'd lose.

It's way too late for preparing mislynches for next Day...

Also I don't particularly understand what Luca did to get to townlock status

Sigh... he claimed a town-PR and there was no counterclaim.

TGP, if you were town, you'd be voting Anen. From your town POV the scum team is either me and Anen or math and Anen. The common factor there being Anen.

Yeah, in your world I'm everyone's scum partner.

The hot shit I'm seeing is the TGP and Mutant were on me and A50, both wagons that were scum-motivated

Now I can see what Mathdino meant.

[Aneninen]

I want to check something else later but if you all think we should end the game, that's okay too.

[Aneninen]

Okay.
I've checked what I wanted.
(1) NSG hinted nothing about his Vig-Kill.
(2) Mathdino, on the other hand, suggested him Nightkilling Mutant.
(3) It was very likely that Gamma would JK Paradox.

(1) gives no information, but (2) and (3) tells us Mutant was performing the Nightkill because he was a possible Vig-Target. He didn't have to be afraid of getting JK-ed. That fits the "either scum didn't have to care about the JK but at least either of them had to be afraid of the Vig".

If it's Mathdino/Paradox, we'll still have some chance. If it's Mathdino/Mutant, f--- you. But that's the least likely version. But, everything, including the Nightkill, the VCA, their posts, etc. tells us the team must be Paradox/Mutant.

VOTE: GoldenParadox

[Aneninen]

I'll post sooner or later.

[Aneninen]

Yes, it was ^_^