Sid Meier's Civilization 5 UPick Mafia (GAME OVER)

[BuJaber]

VOTE: kokichi for claiming evil.

[BuJaber]

Heal is for resolutions not delegate vote

[BuJaber]

I think I townread you for that actually.

Go forth and lead us.

congress host: Elbrin

[BuJaber]

Why would we want an impartial host? Town want someone who will benefit town.

[BuJaber]

Hi.

[Anime]

Is there an anime cult? Don't support the tyrany.

I propose an alliance among the non-anime nations.

[BuJaber]

specifically why didnt you come out and say that directly, instead of going at it obliquely like you did?

Because it was your first post and considering games usually start with RVS I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were joking

[BuJaber]

Those who specifically want power probably shouldn't get it. In this case, that applies to world congress. I actually kind of like that Titus is being open about not thinking it's a great idea for her to have it, and her reasoning for why not is good. That said, do we really think that the World Congress person needs to be particularly mechanically minded in order to do well? If the list is posted, and we all agree on what we think would be best for town to have in, it doesn't really matter does it? So long as we make somebody we can trust to do as the majority desires, we know we don't have to worry about delegates being wasted and can just yea up the things that go in...right? Am I missing something horribly here?

Perhaps later when we know more about resolutions and the mechanics of the world congress as they apply to the game we can choose someone based on their skill or traits. But yes as of now I believe you are right. I don't think it matters how adept they at game mechanics. We should vote for someone we TR.

[BuJaber]

Maybe koki's opener is NAI but when dunkerdoodle follows it up by voting koki for host it looks pretty suspicious to me. If it is NAI then on what basis did dunker trust koki?

Basically I'm happy voting to lynch either of those 2 because that interaction doesn't feel right to me from a town POV.

[BuJaber]

Maybe koki's opener is NAI but when dunkerdoodle follows it up by voting koki for host it looks pretty suspicious to me. If it is NAI then on what basis did dunker trust koki?

Basically I'm happy voting to lynch either of those 2 because that interaction doesn't feel right to me from a town POV.

This is a very lazy read. Are you telling me mafia partners would be that careless? There was no reason as scum we wouldn't have already talked out a plan on who to vote And why. So you saying that is a bit weird and easy to say. How come you hadn't thought it was possible dunk has experience with me and is just comfortable with me as leader? Or how come you didn't think to wait for more interaction between us two?

What makes you think I didn't consider that?

I find it scummy and I went with it. You could use the same argument with every scummy move. Are they really doing that which is obviously scummy? At some point the answer is yes. I wouldn't know unless I test the theory.

Also I did not hammer. One vote is not as final as you make it soubd. Why is it wrong to vote first based on the posts that actually exist and then continue to look at interactions between you?


As for the 2nd post of yours you're reading too much into it. Maybe I didn't need to say it but I did. In my mind it made it clearer exactly what I'm trying to say.

[BuJaber]

Those who specifically want power probably shouldn't get it

TBF, I trust myself and I know that I'm town. I mean, I know I won't get it but in my mind, it is better to put it on the town I know and trust.

aybe koki's opener is NAI but when dunkerdoodle follows it up by voting koki for host it looks pretty suspicious to me

Shouldn't that say more about Dunk than koki?

Well no because if dunker and koki are both scum his vote makes sense as a scum move. If dunker is town it's just a dumb move. If dunker is scum and koki is town that makes even less sense as a move. So I vote koki who could be either scum or town. If he flips town that probably means dunker is town. If he flips scum dunker could be town but would very likely be scum.

@koki - I wasn't trying to represent what you said, I was using hammer as an analogy for something that can't be changed. That's because in your post you make it sound like my vote on you is a mistake that I can't correct. But I have plenty of time to change my mind.

[BuJaber]

Honestly? No it wasn't. It was in RVS but not a joke. You claimed leader of an evil organization, so I voted for you.

Then when I reread the game to see where I want to vote, I kept it on you because I thought more about dunker voting you for host and came up with the conclusions above. And I didn't notice anything in your other posts that convinces me enough to change my mind.

[BuJaber]

As far as who to make leader, I wish there was more Elbirn posting to go off of, but now it feels like he's in an appeal zone where I'd have to be extra critical of everything.
I think that there's probably some link between Joey's garbage vote on me and their support of Kokicheese. As you can likely tell, I am not a fan of that dude being anywhere near our leader. We should specifically make sure he doesn't even get second place.
People have been talking about Titus and I'm like, eh I dunno. Titus tends to get game-controlling when she has a lot of power/setup knowledge, regardless of alignment, and I think it'd make it much harder for me to figure out the slot.

Dear Varlate,

Our Congressman and Congresswomen have been baffled by your various answers considering your position on the Kokichi Nation. We, as a Nation, are asking you to kindly "calm the fuck down".
In that respect, we are moving our active denunciation to the VOTE: Baju something Nation.

Kindly,
Prime Minister of *****

really? Can't read my username from the post above you?

You spend all this time every single post with that intro and signature but this you skimp on?

[BuJaber]

You are all welcome to call me Bu if my username is too difficult to type.

[BuJaber]

A look into the spider-web that is my mind: viewtopic.php?f=94&t=74542

If you want to read it.

Basically if you think I'm an idiot that's fine. Just don't scumread me for how I think. I'm confident that my methods work.

And if you want to lynch me go forth and good luck for the rest of the game.

This game is filled with veterans. New players are often discriminated against in terms of how they play. Fact of life.

[BuJaber]

As far as who to make leader, I wish there was more Elbirn posting to go off of, but now it feels like he's in an appeal zone where I'd have to be extra critical of everything.
I think that there's probably some link between Joey's garbage vote on me and their support of Kokicheese. As you can likely tell, I am not a fan of that dude being anywhere near our leader. We should specifically make sure he doesn't even get second place.
People have been talking about Titus and I'm like, eh I dunno. Titus tends to get game-controlling when she has a lot of power/setup knowledge, regardless of alignment, and I think it'd make it much harder for me to figure out the slot.

Dear Varlate,

Our Congressman and Congresswomen have been baffled by your various answers considering your position on the Kokichi Nation. We, as a Nation, are asking you to kindly "calm the fuck down".
In that respect, we are moving our active denunciation to the VOTE: Baju something Nation.

Kindly,
Prime Minister of *****

really? Can't read my username from the post above you?

You spend all this time every single post with that intro and signature but this you skimp on?

Dear Baju something,

Your Nation should understand that at the time i answered Varlate's correspondance, I was reading the last few pages and your Nation wasn't in the recent postings Nation, and thus, our Nation was lazy and remembered it was Baju Something.

Kindly,
Prime Minister of ****

Alright, that is an acceptable explanation.

[BuJaber]

Is there a reason why people are soft (and in some cases hard) claiming their civs? I sort of got the impression from OP it's best not to.

@Koki - then I apologize for lumping you with the vets. I assumed you were an alt. I assume most new players to be alts. I haven't thought about why. Some just sound like they know a lot of players. If I'm defensive is because you are counterwagoning me which means either I'm getting shade thrown at me by scum or it's a case of TvT and one of us ends up dead.

@dunker - it's only stupid if you knew delegate votes are final. If you truly didn't then it's still not good but not particularly bad. (If you truly didn't then it reads just like an RVS vote).

Regardless of whether or not koki is scum voting for dunker doesn't make sense. Like gamma explained and I explained before him if koki is town it makes zero sense for scum!dunker to vote him for host. So the only way dunker is scum is if koki is too.

So basically if you think koki could be scum vote for him. If you think he's town don't vote for either of them.

[BuJaber]

Also if you think that we could be TvT why are you still voting me? And why aren't you trying to get more info from me?

I don't think you're town. But if you are telling the truth then it's TvT. Also I always get paranoid when people are having 1v1s in thread and a bunch of players aren't even posting anything. Like could it be tactical lurking and allowing town to implode. But then how do you pick one lurker over another. I've tried voting for a lurker randomly when I suspect that scum are lurking in previous games and people don't seem to like it at all. They ask me why I don't like 'X' when in reality 'X' could have been any lurker and I don't have any particular reason to go after 'X' specifically.

I'll bite. Let's have a conversation.

I like to take it one player at a time so what do you think of joey?

Personally he seems like he's trying to do his part to help town, advance the conversation and understand how people think.

However his deep role play is making it harder to understand what he means as it pertains to the mafia game. As in I have to work harder to translate it into what he means in terms of mafia mechanics. Like if he were to just speak like he would in a normal game his posts will make more sense. I am trying not to let that affect my perception but could that be AI? Or is that just indicative of how smart (or not) I am?
Also a different question that may or may not be related to your answer, have you played with him before?

[BuJaber]

Is there a reason why people are soft (and in some cases hard) claiming their civs? I sort of got the impression from OP it's best not to.

What makes you think that?

I went to look for it and couldn't find it. Turns out I misread the "Upick" subsection. Where he says roles were chosen after alignments. Has nothing to do with civilizations.

[BuJaber]

lololololol

Dunk is tied for the lead wagon. Why in the world would I switch my vote to another scum read?

Could you explain why you are voting for dunk and not koki then?

I can't imagine anyone could scumread dunk without scumreading koki. So voting dunk doesn't make sense.

Or in other words.. tell me how you would read koki if dunk flips a) town and b) scum?

[BuJaber]

Fine but you see from my pov both flips give me a definitive answer about dunk imo. That is why it's better.

But if you think scum dunk could be voting for town koki right off the bat like that then we fundamentally disagree on how we're reading the situation.

[BuJaber]

That is explained in my reasoning for voting.

If dunk flips town it wouldn't give me any clue as to what koki is.

Only if dunk flips scum would I also think dunk is scum.

But koki flips town = dunk is town
Koki flips scum = dunk likely scum but could be town.

If I vote koki the option with the least info is the one where we lynch scum.
If I vote dunk the option with the least info is the one where we lynch town.

So koki gives me a better worse case scenario.

[BuJaber]

Only if dunk flips scum would I also think KOKI is scum.

EBWOP

[BuJaber]

Only if dunk flips scum would I also think KOKI is scum.

EBWOP

So, you are basically wanting to flip someone that you aren't scumreading so you can get a read on another player?

When did I imply that?

I am scumreading koki. But I am still thinking of the consequences of me being wrong and what that would mean.

[BuJaber]

Only if dunk flips scum would I also think KOKI is scum.

Am I reading this wrong?

The way its worded makes it sound like you don't really think Koki is scum unless Dunk flips scum.

Oh I can see how you misunderstood. No that was me describing the difference between what info I would get from a dunk flip rather than a koki flip.

As in the only way I'd feel confident about koki's alignment if I were to vote for dunk would be if dunk flips scum.


@Joey - Okay sir. If 9 people agree with you I'll drop it for the wisdom of the crowds. But if I turn out to be right expect a lot of obnoxious bragging.

9 is not arbitrary. In 13 player game the norm seems to be 10 town 3 scum. So in 21 I'm expecting 5.
9 + 1 is 10 which means that if all scum choose to publicly agree with you I would know that at least as many townies also agree.

[BuJaber]

@Ranmaru hosts can repeat. You must use heal tag to vote for host. Once you do, it is locked.

True, but the I.O.C. would rather have a new host still. FIFA would even go for a whole new continent.

What does this mean?

[BuJaber]

lets get more dunker/nero cain votes yall

Okay now that one I need explaining.

Last two people I would have paired together.


@Prime minister of staristan:

When I asked you earlier why you did not use my proper name you explained that it was a memory thing. What made you turn it into a shtick?

[BuJaber]

I don't like the wagon on gamma. Too many votes on someone who hasn't done anything scum-indicative.

I still Koki is scum but since I don't have new reasons than what I already said I feeling this might be a lost cause.

At first I thought Nero was voting dunk instead of koki because he is not paying enough attention or hasn't though it through. This is clearly not the case and my logic is not 'dumb'. It might be wrong but not dumb. For him to actually think his reasoning is not just more correct but actually superior to mine is scummy. Basically he's too closed-minded to be town and I'm not someone worthy of being buddied so he doesn't care about butting heads with me.

VOTE: nero

[BuJaber]

@Elbirn:
1. Why are you so adamant to argue me down from believing in you?
If my rationale for doing so is flawed, so be it, but it doesn't change the fact that I still do.
Others didn't handle the mechanics perma-vote bit quite like you did and if you were trying to garner towncred, you wouldn't step down in the ways you did, either.
Scum-Elbirn doesn't proclaim himself God Emperor as a joke, then goes "Whoops, gotta stick to that meme now" then steps back from that and vouches for Kokichi. I just don't believe that.

2. I think he's town but not that he'll make decisions that are best for town. And, ay, if our leader 'ratfucks' us, we can just lynch them, right?
I feel that Kokichi would drive the decision towards choices I don't like.
I don't want you as leader for skill. I want you as leader because I know you're capable of assessing town wants/needs and pushing through on resolutions that will pass that will benefit us. You're a player that I know I can emphasize with, who will actually respond and listen to me and that we can hit a point of mutual understanding, which isn't what I can say for Kokichi.

If Elbrin wants to be scumread I'd happily scumread him.
It's a large game. Reducint the scum pool is inherently pro-town. I don't like the fact that he's making me doubt my read. I would much rather be confident in my townreads until the game is smaller then I can start to doubt if necessary. I feel like he's playing some sort of long con. So here's where I stand now:

Nero - scum
Elbrin - scum

If correct that makes it very plausible that a) dunk is town and b) koki is scum.

[BuJaber]

I'd be very happy with that because you two are townleans.

[BuJaber]

I have more to say about that but are you actually claiming it or not?

[BuJaber]

So you went from cooking up at least 2 little gambits there to just claiming IC?

You have minimal pressure on you.. why now? Why not continue gambiting?

[BuJaber]

I mean I'm not doubting you for a second. Can't imagine any scum getting away with an IC claim but yes you could have done more with it.

[BuJaber]

Even right now why didn't you just say yes I claim mason.. Would be really interesting. Missed a great way to catch scum in whoever you claim as your mason partner.

[BuJaber]

Even right now why didn't you just say yes I claim mason.. Would be really interesting. Missed a great way to catch scum in whoever you claim as your mason partner.

That's a great point. Poor play on my part.

Well anyway are you still happy with your vote on A50 or was that part of appearing scummy?

[BuJaber]

is there a limit to how many times a player can be elected to host?

[BuJaber]

is there a limit to how many times a player can be elected to host?

No.

Great. Thank you.

Okay everyone so I propose brass be the host everyday. We can argue about who is runner up.

[BuJaber]

Not agreeing to you is a scumclaim

But regarding runner up hold your horses. Once we have enough votes for you that you mathematically can't be beat we don't need more votes. The rest of the votes should be 4 I think which is enough for anyone to be runner up

[BuJaber]

UNVOTE: Gamma

I like the thought of tied wagons until I get more time in a few days to do analysis.

That would work if Creature were actually at five.

I don't like the wagon on gamma. Too many votes on someone who hasn't done anything scum-indicative.

I still Koki is scum but since I don't have new reasons than what I already said I feeling this might be a lost cause.

At first I thought Nero was voting dunk instead of koki because he is not paying enough attention or hasn't though it through. This is clearly not the case and my logic is not 'dumb'. It might be wrong but not dumb. For him to actually think his reasoning is not just more correct but actually superior to mine is scummy. Basically he's too closed-minded to be town and I'm not someone worthy of being buddied so he doesn't care about butting heads with me.

VOTE: nero

Hm, I've been thinking Nero could be scum cos the bullshit rolefishing attack + he loos like he's cherry-picking my content. Though I'm concerned about this because I'm not sure I agree I haven't done anything scum-indicative. I feel like if someone were to take my 213 out of context that would sound pretty scummy (I think Dunker is doing this) and as I told Varsoon some of his criticisms of me make sense, so why the defense?

I should have used the word AI instead of scum-indicative.

Your 213 is just you explaining what I was saying in your words without specifically agreeing. Why is it AI?


Pidgey is so obviously town but doing such obviously scummy things. It is a strange combination.

A50 just gave more value to a klazam lynch.

I intend to vote for klazam after we secure the host votes

[BuJaber]

Fine with titus as runner up.

[BuJaber]

Kokichi - you don't see any benefit in forcing scum to target the IC? From what I understand world leader changes anyway every day. If brass lives we vote him again if he doesn't we dont. The 'term' for hosting isn't until death. And if they choose not to we have a confirmed townie as host for subsequent days.

I don't understand why multiball scum means Varsoon is town. Multiball scum makes you think twice about every townread/scumread. It makes you think twice about why and how people are voting for the congress host. Also unless I misunderstood him his arguments are assuming that world host and resolutions are very significant and impactful that scum would fight hard to get. Why are we assuming this? Players can vote for resolutions. World host doesn't get his way he just gets a 2nd vote while literally being in the spotlight. I don't think scum would play the world congress mechanic as brazenly as you think.

Therefore I am not so sure of the town motivation for thinking about and putting the idea of multiball out there.
Furthermore he is simply reading too much into the role pm. The only objective point he made was the mod meta analysis. But how much we can rely on that? I don't know a lot about how people mod here but I don't really see why hosting a certain way x number of times means you would do it again.

Not to mention of course that I generally dislike discussions that are not directly going to help people scumhunt more effectively. Say we agree that it is multiball or that we will take it into account at least. How does that change the way we scumread anyway? All I can think of is it adds more doubt and make us second guess ourselves. Not only that but multiball means our ability to sort people based on flips is hurt significantly. If someone flips scum does that mean people on their wagon are a) town lynching scum b) scum lynching other scumteam c) scum bussing. How would you know one way or another?


Basically the real question I'm asking here is why is multiball speculation pro-town when we have no evidence at all to suggest it yet?

[BuJaber]

Replace 'multiball scum' with 'multiball spec' in my post.

[BuJaber]

I mean isn't considering every single possibility not the correct way to play as town? You want to in general explain scumreads/townreads in the simplest way you can. This means you go with the obvious things and your gut most of the time and test things out. If you are doubting yourself at every step you are an ineffective town. It's the whole reason why mafia game requires you to have something of an ego and a reasonable level of stubborness. Otherwise you will be distracted thinking about the most convuluted of ways to clear your scumreads of any liability / suspect your townreads.

[BuJaber]

I did read your posts.

I wasn't asking you why you are speculating about multiball. I was asking those who townread you for it to explain why since I see no town motivation to do so. So at best your spec should be NAI.

And I have no problem apologizing to you if it is indeed multiball and you flip town. I will apologize that I suspected you. But there's still not a good speculation for town so you know your alignment doesn't change that and whether or not you're right doean't change that. My argument is pretty clearly about how does speculating about multiball at this stage of the game help town?

[BuJaber]

Well I thought you were speculating.

If you're sure it does make a difference in what you would do. So I apologize for not realizing your confidence.

But see now if you're right it's good for town. If you're wrong it's bad for town. So I think it is a reckless thing to do day 1. Especially if you think we will get confirmation as early as N1.


Also it's only good for scum to keep us in the dark about multiball if they know for a fact that it is multiball. If they don't know or if they know that it is singleball then the scum benefit is obvious as I explained. It makes us question every read. It makes it possible for town to kill both people in a TvS because they think it could be SvS. It makes it impossible to townread people just for scumhunting. Etc.

You didn't answer my question regarding the world congress. Why do you assume it's so good for scum to control it? Why do you think it's overpowered if it's singleball? You think it's reasonable for a 5 or 6 person scumteam champion their partner to host when it would literally put them all in danger?

[BuJaber]

If anything multiball is probably worse for town in terms of the world congress because there could be 2 or 3 scum being nominated independently so there's a bigger chance of voting for scum.

[BuJaber]

That does make sense. None of those thoughts occurred to me so I couldn't see any benefit to town.

And as for the scum knowing it's multiball yeah that just made me feel stupid. In my defence I've only ever played multiball where it was either an open setup or the mod explicitly told everyone.

[BuJaber]

Yes brass. Komi's point is irrelevant. The only difference between you and anybody else is you are confirmed townie so we trust you don't have anti-town wincon. That's the advantage for voting you.

[BuJaber]

They can't kill him before he becomes host unless we a) lynch before he does b) they have day kill.

[BuJaber]

Gamma honestly when I read 213 I didn't think you were speaking about your own opinion. I thought you were explaining my own reasons in your words so others would understand what I was saying better.

I mean I didn't think you did it to sheep me I think you were just trying to make everyone stay objective so I disagree with nero about the sheeping but I do see his point that it didn't look like it was your own logic.

But now that I see how you post it makes sense considering you're one of those people that comments on posts as you read them not after you catch up.

[BuJaber]

Why am I scum suddenly? Odd coming from you specifically.

@brass - where are you going with this? I don't see how civs would be AI so I didn't pay attention to people softing their civs.

[BuJaber]

@shaziro - I dunno maybe. Venmar was kinda vague about whether or not roles are related to civs. But he explicitly said civs were not alignment indicative.

I think varsoon is town from our interaction. I was hoping the people townreading him would respond before he did but I'll just have to sort them based on something else now.

-general mafia question: If I don't say the reason why am I allowed to meta read someone based on ongoing games? Feels like a no but I want to be sure. Well actually how do you stop yourself from subconsciously doing it anyway?

-pedit: joey as this is the first day and we don't know much about the congress I want to wait for brass to be confirmed host before we end the day so yeah we need the lurkers to use their congress votes.

[BuJaber]

Gamma Fwiw if I don't like a word someone uses or they say something that could be misinterpretted I'd rather call them out on it and see them explain it instead of assuming something is implied.

[BuJaber]

Got it. Those responses are enough everyone we can drop it. Thanks and sorry.

[BuJaber]

How are y'all reading elbirn?

I started with a townread - any comments on my reasoning in the early game?

[BuJaber]

To elaborate his more recent posts make me uneasy but there's not something specific. Just feels like he's being a little antagonistic for no apparent town or even scum motivation. Doesn't make a lot of sense. Also feels like there should be something AI because there actually is content but there actually isn't anything AI.

Want to know how much I should trust my first impression in this game and based on my reasoning for it.

[BuJaber]

If creature is obvscum why lynch now?

[BuJaber]

Chara/gamma/klazam/titus/ran/nero/koki all seem better flips.

[BuJaber]

I picked the most polarizing people I remember.. list maybe missing one or two

[BuJaber]

I am not suggesting we see all of them flip

[BuJaber]

Indeed.

I'd probably put them in this order. Some of these are based on my own reads; some based on reads of others (like say a townread of mine is confidently towreading someone they'd be lower in the list)

{Gamma, klazam}
{Titus, nero}
{Kiko}
{Chara, ran}

[BuJaber]

I actually think gamma is town here but a flip either way would make people a lot more focused. I'd love to see how people explain their scumread on him if he flips town.

[BuJaber]

You're looking at it upside down.

I stated intent to vote klazam after brass becomes host.

[BuJaber]

Koki for all intents and purposes I am voting klazam. I just don't see the need to join a wagon now. Nero is pretty safe place to park my vote because I don't think he'd be quicklynched.

[BuJaber]

If creature is obvscum why lynch now?

there's no reason not to lynch scum if you have scum.
flipping Gamma because a lot of players have talked about him sucks.
Klazam is likely scum but if he's town he might be able to show it somehow, meanwhile Creature is just scum.
and justifying a scumread on Gamma after he's flipped town is the same as justifying one while he's alive.
i've seen this sort of opinion from town often enough, but it still doesn't make sense to me.

I've had this discussion so many times in real life to know that there are just 2 schools of thought.
We'll just agree to disagree on when is the best time to lynch creature, and why an 'info' lynch is better.

Maybe justifying scumreads was the wrong words to use. I meant more like people would reasonably analyze the wagon to find scum on it, and in the frantic attempts of scum to defend their votes and cast shade on others you could find a slip. I mean obviously not all scum would be on the wagon but people tend to analyze the wagon first.

And is there no chance of creature leading us to his partners if he is left to live? Even if the answer is no here, if he's as much of a lurker as people say he is I don't see the harm in letting him live until we see some scum flips.
Not gonna talk, not gonna vote, not gonna be listened to, not gonna have an impact.

[BuJaber]

I agree. Stalling the host vote is not like stalling a lynch. There is no town motivation when we have a clear host. Someone is waiting for something. And that would suggest one of the runner ups is scum or scum are hoping we lynch before congress.
In the 2nd scenario it probably means klazam is town.

Unfortunately there is the possibility that real life is interfering and all of what I said is void but that's a factor in every game. I kind of expect people who sign up to a large game to have a plan for catching up reasonably frequently.

[BuJaber]

Chara/gamma/klazam/titus/ran/nero/koki all seem better flips.

Hahaha no

Thanks. I learnt a lot

[BuJaber]

I picked the most polarizing people I remember.. list maybe missing one or two

Polarizing =/= scum pal

Right wow okay you caught me I just wanted to use a fancy word that I don't know the meaning of.

Sigh


I picked those people because they are not widely townread. Being widely townread is

generally speaking

a sign that someone is town. So all of these people have a reasonable chance of being scum considering some people have already scumread them.

Polarizing means some people have townread them, some have scumread them. There are clear opinions expressed about them. Not that much fence sitting. That means when they flip gives us more to go on when we analyze the people who stated reads on them. Of course fence-sitting can also be AI. But the point was to compare those lynches to creature. Anyone who has played with him thinks he's scum. For the rest of us we don't know anything. Apart from the host vote stalling he's a nullread for anyone who doesn't know his meta. We are going purely with what everyone else is saying. So when he flips whatever he will flip what does that tell us? If people know his meta this well there is no way scum!A50 does this just to lynch town creature, and everyone else who's on the wagon would be equally guilty. And if he flips scum, everyone including any bussers equally had a part in lynching him and they all had the same reason so we can't deduce anything from that.

Obviously I know the benefits to town. I am not suggesting his lynch is bad. I am suggesting there are better lynches. You can play the game okay and win. You can play the game well and win more often. IMO lynching creature is the okay play not the optimal play.

[BuJaber]

@Baju something : How good of a player are you ? Whats your experience in mafia games etc, you look like a very confident slot for being this new to the genre. Could you rate you town and scum play on 10 ?

I have played maybe 2 games of real life mafia. That was something like 6 years ago. It was an introduction to the wonderful world of social deduction games.
I have played forum mafia for around 2-3 years. It was a lot less than on this site. This site is a goddamn heaven for someone like me.

For the past 2-3 years also I have played a looooooooot of other real life social deduction games. Resistance/Avalon, secret hitler, ultimate werewolf, spyfall, etc.

I'd say in forum mafia I'm pretty bad at scum. Haven't rolled it enough to really analyze my play based on results. Probably 4/10.
I like to think I'm a decent town player. Though that's where most strategy conflicts occur lol. I rarely find people who look at things the same way I do. Admittedly I tend to use WIFOM quite a bit but that's because of how I approach scumhunting. Don't want to get into it right now. Anyway maybe 8/10.
I like to analyze. I'm just not always good at getting people to townread me. Not that I should care as town, but it still is a flaw in some games when people don't vote with you because they can't trust you and you all end up losing.

I mean I'm a pretty confident guy but I've recently been telling myself to trust my reads more so there's a bit more confidence in my recent games than in the past. That came about because of a combination of a few games where I was right about my early reads and kind of just dropped them or trusted someone else because I didn't get support, and instances where lack of confidence and flip flopping got me scumread.

i agree somewhat, that the Creature lynch is not as informative as it could be. it's like lynching a cop guilty. i don't think anyone would be arguing for leaving a guilty alive. perhaps it's different for players like Titus who don't want to rely on meta or players who just don't know him.
i am reminded of the "town winrates go down when scum is lynched day 1" theory. it's interesting.

would still rather lynch essentially confirmed scum. seeing a scum role would be useful to tell us about the setup and remove a night factor. i've waited to lynch scum Creature before on the insistence of other players and it didn't really help anything because he doesn't post.
i guess leaving him alive would be fine if a vig shoots him.

I accept that people will disagree with me. What I don't accept is when people think my ideas are wrong but their reasons why aren't convincing or you can obviously tell they don't even read your arguments. Most of the time people just think you're stupid because they are too closed-minded to consider they could be wrong. Especially when they have a few wins to backup their 'strategy', they think that anecdotal evidence proves them right.

Sorry for going off the rails a little bit. I am writing while thinking about a real life friend who drives me nuts with his arguments every time.


-pedit: by all means I'm not going to oppose the town consensus, not when I've never played with the guy, but I'm going to make my objections known , if creature is the way to go, so be it.

[BuJaber]

i assume that means you can see i read your arguments and/or i am convincing? :>

Yes

[BuJaber]

Funnily enough on a different site I recently lost a scumgame because I was stubbornly sticking to what I honestly thought was the correct play for town and I got mad because in my mind I was 100% convinced I'd have argued the same way as town.

I could just be an idiot though

Anyway..
Any thoughts on Kiana? Anyone played with her before?

[BuJaber]

I asked about Kiana because of the congress host hold-out. But I see in the VC that she's V/LA.

[BuJaber]

Obviously peacekeep brass.

I say ban all 3 luxuries. We have the strength of numbers now. I'd rather not risk something that could make scum stronger.

We don't know what science funding does, or if brass will get a chance to use it, or if brass's civ can actually use it. I don't want to waste a resolution slot but if you have a free spot then do it.

That's about it. We need to sort this quickly so we can get back to lynching. We don't people to start voting just because they're afraid of no lynch.

[BuJaber]

Woooo a nero post I love in its entirety!

Not sure if this is a right move but whatever varsoon is trying imply I have no idea about.

But as I'm townreading him I'm happy with varsoon if brass can't be chosen or if you feel it's better to not target the same person.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: gamma back to this

Over the past few pages, i think i understand kok's mindset a bit better.

Or you just realized you'd never get a mislynch from me today.

Fuck it lynch me next but let's policy lynch this slot.

[BuJaber]

I'm just getting annoyed. I'm just gonna ignore everything koki says and if he flips scum I'll blame it on those that vouched for him. Once the game is finished I'll have played with him and then next game we're together I'll be able to play more objectively.


VOTE: klazam

I also like how my top scumreads are voting each other probably means one of them knows the others are town.

[BuJaber]

HEAL: Yay: Peace-keeping: brass

Nero could you explain why you think I would be scum if dunk flips scum?

VOTE: pidgey
The catchup when he first started posting seemed good. But the more recent scumhunting seems non-committal and as if he want to keep the most amount of people happy.

For example did anyone get if he town or scum reads me? Because I can't actually tell.

[BuJaber]

Oh right you still think I'm wrong about that.

Anyway you don't have to agree but I'll say it again fwiw that's because I don't see the scum motivation to champion town koki in the first page of the game.

[BuJaber]

He seems to softly agree to wagons without offering alternatives he hard reads --> appeases most people

He is talking about me. I mean sure he is analyzing me via ISO'ing other people but he is doing it. My name is mentioned in his posts several times all while claiming he's ignoring me. He says somewhere he agrees I seem scummy. Then when he's talking about nero he says I'm towny from the quotes nero quoted.

It's just weird to say the least. Maybe if you're ignoring me and haven't read my posts don't try to form an opinion. I wouldn't have expected a read if he never mentioned me.

[BuJaber]

As for the pedit question yeah why not? Everything scum does is either :
- to imitate their town meta / look towny
- to defend / not expose / dissassociate from partners
- to have a town following (either personally or by championing a partner)
- to get townies lynched ( particularly strong ones)
- to expose PRs

All of these are anti-town.

[BuJaber]

I also think scum would have known that delegate botes are final.

[BuJaber]

That's really second-level thinking, Bujaber.
You'll never catch first or third level scum that way.

Maybe but isn't the 'level' just referring to how they achieve the objectives I laid down? The basic objectives are the same at all levels.

I could be wrong. I didn't think this woukd turn into a discussion. It's not discussion-worthy. Catching scum is what matters. You don't have to do it the same way I do.


-pedit: point number 1 is fine. Point 2 to be honest I had no problem understanding it from the get go. The description in the first page made it clear to me we all start with 1 host gets extra while they're host. Later days may mean extra delegates.

[BuJaber]

Also I wasn't saying that all scum would do all of those things. Of course not. I was saying all thing scum would do that I can think of right now all fit into one or more of them.

[BuJaber]

Look I don't actually have a list. I made it up on the flu right now. Chara asked if everything scum does has to be scum motivated and I just wanted to answer with yes. I don't actually approach the game with a checklist but when you are trying to align a player you look at what they've done and ask if it makes sense from town pov or if it's scum motivated.

Analyzing tone, reactions, whatever else can help but it can also hurt because it less objective.

[BuJaber]

I'm gonna blow your mind real quick
When I play as scum, not everything that I do is scum motivated. Sometimes I do things completely antithetical to my wincon. It's not for any WIFOM either, it's just because I think it's funny.
As town, I play contrary to a town win con a ton. I lurk because I'm apathetic to the game. I complain in-forum when that's not helping me achieve wincon at all. I make gambits and jokes and posts that have no business coming from town and don't do anything to help me actually win the game.

Earlier, someone pointed out that I have claimed scum twice this game, so they couldn't trust me.
In what world does either alignment claim scum if they're playing to wincon?

Fine. I'll concede that people have too many different playstyles to each other so thinga may not always be clear when it comes to motivation.
I still think pidgey is scum.

VOTE: klazam

I am not voting for someone who hasn't posted I've never played before based on y'all meta read on him. Also my earlier points about info lynch.

@shaz - good news; hope he gets out soon

[BuJaber]

Bujaber, what's your reads list again?

Never actually did one.

Elbirn, varsoon, ran, joey, shaz, gamma - town

(Still was gonna lynch gamma though I know I think it's worth knowing his alignment for sure)

Klazam, pidgey, dunk, koki - scumreads or leans

Actiondan probably scum; nero I'm flip flopping on.

Rest should be nulls.

[BuJaber]

Nope
But honestly I can't get the votes on you for day 1 lynch.

Multiple possibilities:
- both scum of different teams
- I am wrong on one of you; not sure which
- I am wrong on both of you
- I am wrong that you are not bussing in which case bpth scum of same team.

[BuJaber]

I townread klazam now. I just don't think scum would have such an overlapping scumlist as mine.

UNVOTE: in case this isn't twilight

Kiana's posts are pinging me somewhat. Something about her reads seems forced as in she felt she needed to comment on specific people.

At this point actiondan lurking has to be suspicious.

I have a weird feelint that dunk is scum but other scum are using him as bait to make a case on people or at least shade them. Does that make sense? Like hey buddy why are you townreading dunk you shouldn't be townreading dunk you must be scum. Something just seems off there.

Nero is either scum or he voted like that just for the lolz as it has no effect. I don't think there's any other explanation. Using it as some sort of trap is stupid and he isn't stupid.

[BuJaber]

Oh snap, Creature got hammered even before I returned.

Fortunately, our dearest hosts aren't around. This allows me to sneak in a couple of posts before the thread gets locked.

Confirmed town: Brassherald, Kiana
Townreads: Titus, Varsoon, Chara, Dunkerdoodles, Joey,
Town leans: Kokichi, Nero, Ranmaru, pidgey, Almost50
Null: Jodaxq, ActionDan,

Possibly scum, since they have posted and I don't have a townread on them: Elbirn, Bujaber, Shaziro, Klazam, Gamma Emerald
I have an active scumread on them: Marshy

The confirmed town line is not needed at all. But when there's an IC people generally feel the need to have that stated. Like "oh okay brass is confirmed town I'm paying attention". This isn't AI but the absence of such a statement makes me leaning towards town because I think scum can't resist making this post because they are thinking about how they look.

3/4 of the people she knows are townreads with the 4th being a townlean. Also with the exception of chara I feel that koki, titus and varsoon have all been controversial somewhat so she'd have attracted questions if she didn't comment on the controversial people she obviously knows from previous games. That said, these people didn't really have wagons on them that didn't fizzle out.

As opposed to some on her possible scum list. I find it really suspicious that she can have confident townreads but when it comes to gamma who has posted a looot she's sort of sitting on the fence. But she had to mention these people because like she said we've been posting she can't not comment or people will ask questions.

talk to me about marshy and dunker if we have time?

pedit: have you played a large theme before, Kiana? this is basically how it always is.

Yes, I have time, I'd be happy to talk to you Chara. It's only an issue of whether we get stopped by the hosts if they come online.

I don't like a majority of marshy's posts, they seem actively trying to stay under the radar. However, I'm not very sure about my scumread on him, but he's my top pick for scum at the moment.

Dunker seems town, I don't see any reason to scumread him.

I'm in a couple of ongoing Large Themes. It doesn't matter about the size of the game, I'm usually able to lock down scum easily regardless of size, as you've seen what I did to Dunnstral in Purgatory, and I'm alarmed that I don't have any leads here, even though there are likely 1) More Scum and 2) More Content.

Her top scum pick, and in fact only one that is actually a scumread she isn't even sure about?? And then she claims she's good at locking scum down. May be true but in this game she's mostly given townreads.

No good reason to put dunk as a townread instead of null or 'possible scum'. Her reasoning for 'possible scum' is people she couldn't townread. So she must have found something that makes her townread dunk right?

you have dunker in a category with players i'm townreading, i'd like to know why you're confident there. how you're reading me would also be good to know, though i'm less interested in that.

pedit: i think Dunker was openly avoiding Creature's wagon. i actually don't know if scum would be so blatant about it.. there were other things i don't like but i can't remember right now.

Alright, that's true, maybe Dunker is the odd one out in that list, I recall some people were scumreading him earlier in the game, but I didn't agree with those scumreads. As far as possible most of his posts seem town to me on a tonal level, although, I am hoping this isn't another repeat of the ZZZX situation where I mis-townread someone based on hindsight-proven weak reasons.

I don't think avoiding Creature's wagon is scummy. Scum on Creature's team would have known that Creature's lynch was almost inevitable and be hard-pressed to bus. Also, someone who didn't know Creature's meta would find it difficult to differentiate Creature's alignment-indicative lurking from other lurking players like Joda and ActionDan.

The part about creature seems rather obvious to me, doesn't need to be said but again someone who caught up would feel the need to comment on the creature wagon. But he was absent from the readslist so why talk about him now not there.

Hm, what do you think is inherently anti-town/scummy about my early RP ?

Your early RP allowed you to look funny and likeable while giving yourself an excuse to not post anything of substance. That was pretty scummy, though I thought you were kind of funny.

Yea im a funny dude but that was the wrong answer. My posts had substance, i pushed my agenda, outed reads, scumhunted, gave my impressions about pushes and so on. I wouldve understood if you thought that the format of RP was opaque (and it was), if anything thats the only scummy thing about RPing is that is keeps ppl from reading you correctly. But i had plenty of substance. We will see tomorow if i wanna rope you or not

Your RP-ing allowed you to obfuscate your so-called substance in a way that they could have easily been posted as scum as they would have as town. I saw the "substance", but I don't believe scum would have been incapable of posting that in such a manner.

Hey true! But why didnt you say so, you said it felt like a poor excuse to no post substance, yet now you say that 'i did post substance that could easily come from mefia' !! not the same thing lady

Read again. I said that RP-ing gives yourself an excuse to not post substance. I didn't say you didn't post substance.

It's like a "Get out of Jail Free Ticket", which is a very scummy ticket.

Fun tickets are often scummy tickets

Dear Prime Minister of *****,

Lady Kiana believes that you are a fun player and would like to invite you for some tea and biscuits in her peaceful Nation. Lady Kiana would also like to give you some advice on how to be fun without being scummy. We hope you will accept our invitation.

With warmest regards,
Lady Kiana

Don't get the point of this post. But the post explaining her joey reads is a good post and I could see it from a townie.

Shaziro + Klazam = Shazam!

Don't get the point of this.

[BuJaber]

I just don't think scum would have such an overlapping scumlist as mine.

He couldn't be scum that's sheeping you?

No because I don't think I've been very clear on who I'm scumreading and why would he sheep me? I'm not a top poster, and I'm not the only one on his wagon. Why me specificaly?

[BuJaber]

Gamma, Nero, Kok (maybe), dunk

the last 3 are all most likely town. Gamma could be scum I guess.

I don't have an answer for you. Yes these could town. I could be wrong about my scumreads. Klazam could be sheeping me.

I just don't think it's likely at the moment without additional content and flips.

[BuJaber]

My read wasn't dumb let's go dunk flipped scum koki is probably scum. The other way doesn't work but this way does.

VOTE: kokichi

HEAL: host: brass

[BuJaber]

My read wasn't dumb let's go dunk flipped scum koki is probably scum. The other way doesn't work but this way does.

VOTE: kokichi

HEAL: host: brass

this is still dumb. no offense.

You're entitled to your opinion.

My scumread on dunk was based on this theory. I can't imagine a world where scum would do that 2nd post host vote on a townie. I currently don't believe that I was just lucky on dunk.


Willing to vote for gamma/nero when I fugure out which is the better lynch.

[BuJaber]

And this is why you're scum.

I do have an interesting question. It's a bit open-ended though. In light of Dunk flipping scum, how do you feel about your desire to lynch Koki and town read Dunk if Koki had flipped town?

Aight let's lynch nero. If he flips scum I'd like to see how many people will STILL defend koki.

VOTE: nero

[BuJaber]

Okay based on a mixture of day 1 reads and the ISO of dunk and Varsoon scum probably in: {koki, nero, marshy, A50, pidgey, titus}

I'll do more thorough rereads of some interactions when I get some more free time.



-pedit nero I want to see your flip to decide on a few things including whether you v gamma is TvS or TvT. Don't think it's SvS given how many S flipped already.
As for koki his posts ping me. It might be a playstyle thing for sure but when you add the dunk flip and interaction and how many people are strongly defending him it makes sense to me.
Actually this is a good point. No way everyone defending koki is town. Even if koki is town it makes sense one of them at least would be trying to gain credit for it. Never have I seen such strong defence and townreads on one townie before in day 1. I'll find the scum among them.


Joey or chara for host/runner up


Okay guys lynch me .. A50 being wrong with such a bs case is worth more to me than living.

[BuJaber]

So remember when I said that if there is a culture team they probably have to spread religion? A50 could literally just be that. Having a long elaborate way of saying “I’m China and spread Taoism” means nothing wrt alignment, and if he is China...why didn’t he say anything about the way banning silk affected him? I would assume China would be the one to be affected by that luxury ban the most, and the ban confirmation post suggested the same. Does making a big “riddle” crumb really mean he -is- China? All in all, I don’t think having that crumb changes a thing.

Pedit: fuck off Nero. Honestly and truly.

Titus, I changed my mind on banning silk later on and gave my reasoning, re-read my iso.

How much can we rely on flavor spec though to be fair?

A50 could be scum because he got some early votes from flipped scumsters which could be a sign of bussing. That's all I have on him that might be AI.


Pedit sorry nero that's not why I scumread you that's why I want to lynch you. I actually don't know how to read you this game. Been flip flopping

[BuJaber]

My best bet is that there is a Town religion spreader, a Mafia religion spreader who has no win condition involved, and then a Mafia religion spreader who -does- have a win condition for their team involved, or possibly a team of like 2. That would mean that they could spread equally fast to the other two, in fact, and since the other two couldn't coordinate it would be in favor of the two who could. Makes their objective to find and kill the other religion spreaders while still spreading their religion, makes for an interesting mechanic, and is exactly the kind of thing I would expect to see in a Civilization Mafia theme game.

ALSO: Fuck everyone who said I was reaching when I made comparisons to the Prostitute role and the banning silk, not only did the fucking flavor for that ban being enacted mention sex workers, but CREATURE WAS A MAFIA ROLEBLOCKER WHICH IS ALSO CALLED A PROSTITUTE. 10/10 predictions, let's go!

Note the first bit of this, brass. I definitely think one scum team spreads religion but -doesn’t- win based on it, because it makes it harder for the other scum team who does to win by it.

This would be pretty bold coming from scum. Soft townread on shaz.

[BuJaber]

So I should be willing to get lynched just to not dismiss him? Like if Bu has a case I can show him where he's wrong but if his sole reasoning is "I don't know how to read you so I want to flip you" then I'm just gonna dismiss him

Yup you just ignore me voting on you.

For me:
Reasons to vote you:
-some scummy posts
-defending koki
-your reasons for why me voting koki is dumb but you voting dunk isn't
-could help figure out gamma's alignment
-I'd know for sure

Reasons not to vote for you:
-some towny posts

[BuJaber]

I now believe it is scummier to defend than koki than to be koki in this game. Hooray for koki. Koki if you're town agree with me okay they're buddying you. If you're scum can you NK me please? I don't want to keep trying to talk people into it unsuccessfully.


Pedit- A50 do you mind continuing this reads list ?

[BuJaber]

@Bu

-What are my "scummy" posts?

Okay I will compile a list when I next get on my home computer. It might not be before the weekend though so if it makes you feel better I'll vote someone else for today until I can compile the list.

Pedit don't mind ran as host /runner up

[BuJaber]

Stacking all of our extra votes on You is the reason making you host is a bad idea Brass. We are better off spreading them between high townreads so scum can’t eliminate them in a single NK

In the host description in the OP it says host gets extra delegates for that day. I think the extra votes are tied to host only.

[BuJaber]

Comsidering a religion spreader flipped scum already I don't want any resolutions that encourage or boost religion. Pidgey please tell us all you know about religion.

[BuJaber]

That's a reasonable guess but let's also hear what pidgey has to say.

[BuJaber]

There could easily be a third scum team of 2

Pagan does -not- mean no religion.

considering three different flavours of religion, i don't think there's a religion based mafia. it just seems odd for flavour that three different religions would be united under one banner.

social commentary.

Bujaber: the fact that Kokichi is so scummy to you that anyone defending him must be scum is baffling to me. especially since your main argument was he was scum not for his play, but because dunker voted him for leader.

You misunderstood me. My scumread on koki is independent. It is partially connected to dunk yes, but not connected to the koki defenders (tm).

What I am saying is regardless of koki's alignment the number of koki defenders (tm) is way too high for me to think that all of them are uninformed townies. There is definitely at least one scum among them because that just makes logical sense in this game. It would really be a good idea to go back and reread and compile a list of anyone who is defending him or strongly townreading him or even more suspicious the ones changing the subject by saying "that's what koki does it's NAI" which woukd be the easiest way for scum to look like they're contributing to koki reads. That is what I plan to do this weekend.

[BuJaber]

A50 I am gonna give you the benefit of the doubt that you did in fact mix me up with someone else because I take offence to that shit.

[BuJaber]

BuJaber: from what i know about Kokichi, and from how he's playing this game regardless of what i know about him, i very strongly believe he's town. it doesn't surprise me at all to see other players townreading him.

I respect and value your opinion.

I accept that this game will be a sort of rite of passage. I'll learn more about you guys and you'll learn more about me.

Right now I'm not seeing your perspective and frankly I can't fully trust you mean what you say until you flip town.

[BuJaber]

There you go.

Want to tackle world hunger next?

I just remembered that our delegates aren't 'used up' when we vote for host. Was trying to be clever with it.

HEAL: Host: Brass

Shaz's whole reason for brass being runner up was a misunderstanding. I don't know why we shouldn't vote for brass again. We can change the runner up if people didn't like titus.

[BuJaber]

No for some reason I forgot we get them back again to vote for resolutions.. that's why I only used one earlier to 'save' the second.

[BuJaber]

Who's Kiana?

[BuJaber]

Who's Kiana?

Jokes aside I'm down to lynch Kiana. Check my ISO for my reasons.

[BuJaber]

Why was he sus about creature's wagon?

He first says he'll vote Creature if Dunker became more active. Then, he votes Creature for all of one post. After his unvote, he continues to say Creature is obvscum until Creature came in with a few weak posts. Then it's "I'm not confident in Creature being scum." He then jumps on kind of late.

It just looked like a strong possibility that he knew he had to bus Creature but looked for opportunities to jump off.

Honestly I didn't notice this myself.
But fwiw I think that's a towntell.
Scum would just bus or not vote no need for the theatrics.

[BuJaber]

Gamma's claim is confirmable. Let's not lynch today.

[BuJaber]

You know we hammered without even seeing the resolutions pass and what they would have done this day phase. So that's cool. Gg ez..

Anyway if creature flips scum and I'm not alive tomorrow to bring it up, this is a reminder to all of you that Gamma was real shifty about the creature wagon earlier and you should put the squeeze on him. Actually in general if I'm dead tomorrow I hope you all heed my wisdoms I've said lots of good stuff and I'd hate to be a non participant after death.

Speaking of which Joey is town leave him alone white haired anime lady

Is this the post where Elbirn softs that he'll target Gamma?

It's the only one I found that even remotely suggests it.

[BuJaber]

Whatever let's go. I'm pretty sure one of Nero/gamma is scum anyway. Their fight is annoying and distracting.

I blame Elbirn and kiana if gamma flips town. I will go for a nero lynch too.

VOTE: gamma

[BuJaber]

(I will go for a nero lynch if gamma flips town )


How to piss off people and escape the NK 101. Lynch me haters.

[BuJaber]

Why would a scum watcher bother watching brassherald? They KNOW that no protectives was going to hit brass that night.

Scum investigative? Brass's role was already outed

Roleblocker? We have a dead one already, and roleblocking a confirmed IC seems dumb

Religion spreader? Brass confirmed theres no religion.

Strongman? Brass's still alive

What else is there?

Guys, what teh fuck. Gamma is town here. There exists no scum role that makes sense with being used on the protected IC.

FOS on BuJaber for the previous 2 posts tho. Dont like the tone.

Tone of someone who has accepted that their opinions qill drown in the sea of witchhunters that exist in this game. They want to kill gamma let them kill gamma. Then let them scramble about to prove their innocence afterwards. Sometimes the fight is won through death.

There is a bloc of people who have regardless of alignment decided to stick together no matter what. Fuck em let the townies among them learn from their mistakes.

I like how you're with me though. I honestly thought nobody was gonna reject the gamma lynch except me.

[BuJaber]

Klazam look at the cases on you. On me. On gamma. On titus.

There's witch hunting going on and I don't know which of them are scum and which are town. All I know is that as much as I want to lynch nero for the reasons I have mentioned he comes round everytime and sounds so damn townie. Chara also I gut reas as town. And so I'm gonna change my approach and sheep them and see what happens for one or two day phases.

[BuJaber]

Chara is actually voting shaz.. hmm thought ut was gamma. She actually agrees on gamma not getting lynched today.

Maybe I gave up too early. Though seriously with that post elbirn posted people aren't gonna stop asking if he died because he targeted gamma or not. So I dunno I want to move on from that.

[BuJaber]

I blame Elbirn and kiana if gamma flips town. I will go for a nero lynch too.

Blame blame blame... the first thing that comes to your mind is blame... just like the bosses at work... only know how to blame if things go wrong, but if things go right, they keep quiet.

*shrugs* we're human. We remember blame more than pats on the back. I'm threatening you with the scary BLAMES. Being right is also its own reward.

[BuJaber]

World Congress

Voting for a Congress Host
(Day 2 - Update 3.1)

On Day 2, all players receive 2 delegates for assignment in the World Congress.
The Host receives an additional 2 delegates, for a total of 4 delegates.

---

Spoiler: Delegates Cast (19)

[10] HEAL: HOST - brassherald: Kiana Kaslana (1), BuJaber (2), ranmaru (1), Klazam (2), ActionDan (2), Gamma Emerald (2)
[2] HEAL: HOST - Titus: Shaziro (2)
[4] HEAL: HOST - Kokichi Koma: Kokichi Koma (2), Joey_ (2)
[1] HEAL: HOST - Joey_: Chara (1)
[2] HEAL: HOST - ranmaru: Almost50 (2)

Spoiler: Delegates Not Cast in Host Election (17)

Nero Cain (2), Kiana Kaslana (1),

brassherald

(

4

), Chara (1), Titus (2), pidgey (2), Jodaxq (2), marshy (2), ranmaru (1)

NOTES

:

• [*]

  brassherald

  remains Host unless/until a new one is elected
  [*]

  Titus

  was the runner up on Day 1

Vote.

[BuJaber]

How would we feel about a Joda leader?

I really don't understand your reluctance to host.

Runner up sure it can be joda don't really care.

[BuJaber]

Joey is the least polarizing and chara is a good choice too

[BuJaber]

A50 that post was made in a moment of frustration and not thinking properly. I didn't how to respond to the gamma accusations that I thought were dumb. So I wanted to prove them wrong by flipping gamma. At least then we can focus on other people.

Like marshy. Let's lynch marshy scum. There's obviously a lot of TvT going on so let's avoid lynching the active people (though in the event people change their mind about koki that is still one of my top scumreads but we can wait. Let's sort the lurkers and speed up congress voting for future day phases).

VOTE: marshy

[BuJaber]

VOTE: marshy
And that is a whole lot of

on that fucking responsibility dodge

Oh hell no is correct. 2562 is so bad. And I think I have seen that actor somewhere before.

Martin Freeman

[BuJaber]

I say ban two things. Doesn't matter which. And since you each pick 3 choose all the bans amongst yourselves to ensure at least one gets chosen.

My only issue with a shaziro lynch is if he flips town (which is what my gut tells me) then where would we be the next day? We'd still be debating who to lynch out of the religions spreaders but minus one townie.

I've been scumreading both pidgey and marshy all game. Shaz's idea fits my perspective of this game. I'd rather lynch one of them first before assuming shaz is scum.

If you want to be cautious we can lynch elsewhere and wait for possibly new information to be revealed. Someone like actiondan or koki are good.

So basically imo lynch should be either {pidgey/marshy} or {koki/actiondan}.

Also it is likely that since nero chose to go after shaz at this point in the game we're looking at a TvS.

[BuJaber]

I really don't see the point of supporting any 'boosts'.

This is a game of mafia. We eliminate all mafia we win. We have had a good start but that doesn't mean we should play risky now. We know for a fact we are currently stronger by sheer numbers. Anything that may have unknown consequences is inherently better for scum.

I am only supporting resolutions that ban stuff.

[BuJaber]

HEAL: yay: Ban Ivory
HEAL: yay: Ban Gold

[BuJaber]

You make a valid argument for Ran!scum. I'd be willing to vote there.

As for koki I'm just gonna laugh when he flips scum and all you people that 'know' him got it wrong.

[BuJaber]

But it's okay let's play the game of wait for 2/3s the town to die before lynching scum with our fingers crossed.

[BuJaber]

VOTE: ranmaru

[BuJaber]

So basically imo lynch should be either {pidgey/marshy} or {koki/actiondan}.

Also it is likely that since nero chose to go after shaz at this point in the game we're looking at a TvS.

Pidgey/marshy
Koki/AD
Nero not shaz
Or shaz not nero
Ranmaru

How is that everyone?


@nero:
Dunk's vote
Koki's jokes about evilness and scumminess
Fact I don't remember any of his SR's without having to ISO him. He doesn't seem very forceful with his opinions.
His weird distrust of titus from the start for no clear reason.

Admittedly I haven't ISO'd him in a long time. But I realize he's not a viable lynch because there's not enough votes for it so I'm not concerned with sorting him for the time being.

[BuJaber]

Btw I don't know if I answered nero or not but basically the TvS was more of me thinking it can't be SvS. Maybe I should have worded it differently but I am not dismissing the possivility of TvT just find it more likely to be TvS.

[BuJaber]

Dunk's vote
Koki's jokes about evilness and scumminess
Fact I don't remember any of his SR's without having to ISO him. He doesn't seem very forceful with his opinions.
His weird distrust of titus from the start for no clear reason.

Admittedly I haven't ISO'd him in a long time. But I realize he's not a viable lynch because there's not enough votes for it so I'm not concerned with sorting him for the time being.

like I said, I think Dunks vote was more buddyish than trying to get their scumbuddy elected. TBF, I have seen scum joke about being scum/scummy but I also think it just comes from bad town alot. It's WIFOM. Ditto on not remembering anything they've done. She's remarkably unmemorable. The only thing I remember is her thing about gold causing corruption as that's a civ 3 mechanic and her thinking that would still be in civ v is just kinda dumb.

Thing is I think he did it exactly for this WIFOM argument. It was a herp derp let's elect the first person to post in the thread just because he said he'd be a good leader.

It is the fact that it was in RVS that makes it so good as a scum move. If he knew the votes were permanent he could always play it off to RVS or lie about knowing. If he actually didn't like he claims then it actually makes more sense because he would have changed his vote later and we would have all forgotten that subtle push for koki if he isn't elected host.

Basically I disagree that scum have no motivation to do that in RVS. I think there's lots of motivation to do that.

[BuJaber]

England had catholic monarchs too and iirc church of england was connected to the king/queen regardless of faith.

Not that I think this matters here.

[BuJaber]

Yeah let's not read into it.

However my current thoughts on the religion stuff:
If religion has an actual impact on the game rather than just flavor then it doesn't make sense to me to have this many townie religion spreaders without another scum religion spreader that can negatively influence town. Like it doesn't seem that pagan spreader would have influenced wincons in any obvious way; therefore there must be another.
But if religion is flavor only and nothing else then there's no reason to scumread any of the religion spreaders based on the fact they're a religion spreader as we could easily have that many flavor factions.

Which begs the question why are their resolutions that influence religion if it was just a flavor thing?

Which makes me think shaz is right and we have one more scum religion.

But anyway for now since we are testing this ban gold let's see what effect it has and we can make a decision on what to do with religion claims in day 3.

[BuJaber]

I prefer you too <3

[BuJaber]

Let's lynch AD or Ran.
We'll sort out the religion spreaders later.

[BuJaber]

I'm pretty against a Bu lynch. I mean yeah, his logic that we should have flipped Koki before dunk and that koki's flip will tell us about Dunk's alignment is and I can more than understand why its suspicious as fuck. But I just feel like he genuinely believes that and I feel like his tone is a bit different than when I recently played with him. Could he fool me? Sure.

I think if we are lynching for the last red, since 2 man scum teams is tinfoily and bad IMO, we should be lynching

ON

the Creature wagon. Also could see orange scum on there too as Creature was EZ lynch and if we inadvertently hit orange scum then WOO HOO!

I am town and I do truly believe in my logic (Plus I find it implausible that dunk would buddy a townie in this way).

[BuJaber]

Everyone is so scummy this game.

BuJab, Titus, Marshy, ActionDan. Lmk if any of those have traction. I prefer BuJab

i will help you, bujab is town and marshy is not on the table today

Yes so combined with my townread of chara (unless she's scum with koki somehow which would mean both have to be orange assuming two scumteams of 3 and therefore kinda unlikely) that only leaves Ranmaru, Gamma, and shaz.

Unless all religion spreaders are somehow confirmed town shaz seems incredibly townie to me right now. Gamma is also a townread. So if we are definiteky lynching from the wagon then it's ran.

Like I said Ran > ActionDan for me today. No other choices seem viable unless there is enough support for a koki lynch. That will always be my number 1.

[BuJaber]

More on chara: obviously I think koki is more likely to be red scum. If he isn't red scum my dunk association reason is invalidated only the others are applicable. Thus I find it difficult to scumread chara.

[BuJaber]

at least 1 implies more than one is possible.

Yes, but we dont know that. Even if only 3people ends up claiming VT its good, maybe if we lynch kiana no one will ever claim VT for the rest of the game. I think that a single VT can be a”named” VT, the only thing that contradicts that theory is the IC which compete for basically the same role (an IC is a named VT).
Anyway, i still think massclaiming could win us the game extremely fast but it wont happens because

Because what?


And what gives you the idea this is role madness anyway? We still have no idea what most of the remaining players' roles are.

Better questions: what do more VT claims tell you about Kiana? Why would anybody claim it for no reason just because she did?

CCs work on PRs because there are rarely 2 of the same in one game. And even for a PR claim it is not always correct to counterclaim because the original claim might have been done by scum specifically to expose the info.

[BuJaber]

at least 1 implies more than one is possible.

btw you can have role madness with VT, I was in that situation in a past game and got pseudo-cleared for most of the game via that

I believe the assumption here is that role madness games that include a VT only include 1 VT.

Joey seems to think that is the case unless I'm misunderstanding him.

And if I've read the intention correctly chara is saying that since from the op all we know is that we have 1 VT but we could have more there's no reason for joey to assume role madness.

[BuJaber]

Fine then I'm VT

VOTE: Kiana

[BuJaber]

And buja dont be a twat, kiana could be vt as well

Then WTF were you trying to do with your comments about VT and role madness.

I'm sorry if this is me misunderstanding you but I thought you wanted this. You seemed to imply that VT claims are scum except 1 and Gamma sort of agreed.

[BuJaber]

prodded?

VOTE: Kiana

Better than any one else

ob

Oh hey you're in this game.

[BuJaber]

I highly doubt that Gamma is scum.

Plus he claimed JOAT. Dude has to keep making up lies if he is scum. He'll be caught. No need to lymch early.

There might be not be clear town motivation for his allleged night action but there isn't clear scum motivation either.

Koki is so obvscum to me man..

But if majority still disagree I say let's go back to Ran or ActionDan.

VOTE: Ranmaru

Inb4 koki/Kiana are both orange/3rd scum team.

[BuJaber]

Is scum JOAT a thing?

[BuJaber]

Yes scum lying is always the simplest explanation. I just had to ask because the thought crossed my mind.

Scum JOAT wouldn't claim watcher first anyway. He'd outright claim JOAT or lie.

[BuJaber]

People don't always play optimally.
His explanation for it is believable. It never would have occured to me personally that a mechanic like resolutions would ever be watchable but I can imagine that if the thought did occur to someone and they had an investigative they might test the idea. Why he didn't just ask the mod I don't know.

But really the idea that scum!gamma targeted a protected brass with some mysterious action, then because he got caught he claimed watcher then because he got scrutinized he then claimed JOAT is more believable to you than him using his watcher on brass?

[BuJaber]

Please let's revisit gamma on later days. Y'all are tunneling. There is no reason to kill someone who if scum will keep hacing to lie and dig himself further. Plus a fair number of us think he's town.

I begrudgingly agreed to not lynch any religion spreader now because apparently we might be able to figure them out later as we get more info.

So that leaves Ran, ActionDan, Kiana, Klazam as realistic wagons for the day. Can we please lynch one of them?
Preferably Ran as that is probably the best info flip and there's a decent chance he's scum.

[BuJaber]

I can't tell anymore if this is town implosion or remaining scum are really really good.

Let's lynch ranzam.

[BuJaber]

I think lynching gamma is the correct conservative play that is probably resulting in a scum flip 8 out of 10 times here, the loss if wrong tho is pretty high

Even if this is true (the 80% scum flip) it doesn't justify a lynch now. The expected value of 20% lynching a JOAT is worse than the value gained of 80% lynching scum when we have this many players still alive.
Y'all are acting as if not lynching gamma now = locktowning him. Keep him alive and test his claim. He is either killed by scum or he proves his role or he gets lynched later.

Patience shaz. If koki is scum he will be lynched this game. Just wait until nobody can refute it.

Ran/Dan/Klazam they even sort of rhyme. Lynch here come on.

[BuJaber]

I think lynching gamma is the correct conservative play that is probably resulting in a scum flip 8 out of 10 times here, the loss if wrong tho is pretty high

Even if this is true (the 80% scum flip) it doesn't justify a lynch now. The expected value of 20% lynching a JOAT is worse than the value gained of 80% lynching scum when we have this many players still alive.
Y'all are acting as if not lynching gamma now = locktowning him. Keep him alive and test his claim. He is either killed by scum or he proves his role or he gets lynched later.

Patience shaz. If koki is scum he will be lynched this game. Just wait until nobody can refute it.

Ran/Dan/Klazam they even sort of rhyme. Lynch here come on.

I explained it poorly. The negative EV of lynching JOAT is far greater than the positive EV of lynching scum here.

[BuJaber]

Wagon reactions seem to imply ran/AD are not on the same team. Either 2 different scum teams or TvS.

Because if gamma is scum (lol) and there were 2 town counterwagons I don't think we would have had a stalemate for so long.

If gamma is town and both are town same thing.

If gamma is town and both are scum gamma would have probably been lynched already.

Also unless you think both AD and klazam and gamma are all scum I don't think AD and klazam are scum together.

[BuJaber]

True
You know what this is a rabbit hole..let's just please lynch ran or AD and figure things out from there.

[BuJaber]

If a vig actually vigs gamma I ask every townie to laugh at them for at least 3 posts.

[BuJaber]

First of all I don't think gamma is scum still. While I think it does nothing to actually stop the wagon, I refuse to join in on the principle.

Secondly I am even more suspicious of the religion spreaders. If we go with our assumption of 2 scum teams one of them is a lying scummy piece of manure. (I don't mean it personally)

Thirdly this may just be me being paranoid but I think it is safer not to elect brass as leader today. We still have no way to know for sure what the religion does. And we don't know if scum has targeted him at all in some way. As far as I know there is nothing in normal game rules prevenring an IC from being tainted in some way after the claim. This is in no way an attack or accusation on brass himself, but today I'd rather he be runner up.
HEAL: Host: Joey x3

Fourthly, @Ceasar: you are a big scumread right now. By all means provide us with as thorough a read list as you can but if you are town you should try to convince us of this fact. We are close to breaking the game through PoE and sorting your predecessor's slot goes along way towards that. In particular I would like to hear your thoughts about {marshy, pidgey, A50} who have all claimed religion spreader (of different religions per their claimed civ). Also your thoughts on Kiana, Klazam and Jodax. I chose these names intentionally of course as I think all scum are within these 6 names.

Fifthly, @Chara - were you wrong on any read of a flipped player yet? IIRC your reads are shaping up to be remarkably accurate. Since I've liked your approach and personality (turns out that matters - sue me I'm human) all game, and townread you for at least some of the duration of the game, I am not going to read into this as long as there are no significant changes to the game state. But please humor me.

Sixthly - we all agree that if joey is scum he just deserves to win right? Joey if you're scum kill me before lylo because I will turn on you by policy. It's my new lylo tactic. If the locktown is not dead he gets lynched at lylo. Though for the record I have not had a chance to test this strategy.

I thought I had more points to make.. I'll post more if I think of something else.

Pedit - peacekeeping doesn't have to be on host right? We can argue whether I should submit to my paranoia and give the peacekeeping to joey instead of brass or not later but if it works only on host then obviously we need to decide now

[BuJaber]

Okay then ... let's just ask this question and this we can go back to trusting brass 100%:

Religion spreaders: is there anything you know about religion that implies a separate wincon or anti-town consequences?
(If all 3 answer the same way then we can believe them since only one targeted brass, only one is scum, which leaves one of them having 0 reasons to lie)

[BuJaber]

Did anybody argue against that? All we said was it was tied to host and not to brass.

[BuJaber]

Bujaber: i'm not sure what you're saying regarding my reads and your townread on me.
i think i've been doing well this game when it comes to identifying town. Creature's meta is obvious and easy. :> i did think ActionDan had a good chance of flipping scum, and i want to believe my Klazam and Kiana reads are right.
i think i'm coming back to Gamma scum, though. :<

I am asking if you townread nero, elbirn
And scumread varsoon and dunk before each flipped? (Creature I know already and I know you townread koki)

Because if you got all 6 right it kinda points to you being red scum.
But the point with my townread is that since you are a townread I am going to ignore this if the answer is yes and chalk it up to good reads and/or coincidence because there are far more scummier people than you.

[BuJaber]

It does when varsoon is the only orange to flip so far and he kinda made it obvious to scum that he was scum. I missed it at the time myself but from red scum pov it's not a big stretch to say they would have caught it.

[BuJaber]

@mod - hypothetically if a JOAT had 1-shot commute could they use it on themselves?

[BuJaber]

Yeah I felt varsoon played quite well I kinda feel sorry for him.

Pedit - of course. Sorry was thinking of hider. It's been a long day.


Okay can we drop the gamma is scum thing now?

The biggest reason to lynch gamma as I understand it is the soft guilty which means the people voting him think:

1. He missed elbirn's crumb despite it being allegedly obvious to half the players at least.
2. He does not or chose not to use his commute
3. He then claims watcher
4. Only to recant it and say JOAT
5. Then he claims one of his abilities is commute despite it being an obvious scum move for someone going to be targeted by elbirn

So the scum motivation for all of this is what ? WIFOM against this particular argument only?

[BuJaber]

I mean my track record this game has been terrible.
Except for townreading nero after arguing with him for so long (probably best thing I've done this game since it gave me that townread at least) I have gotten everything wrong so far. Even dunk I was right but for the wrong reason. I still don't see the scum motivation for sheeping koki in page 1 lol. I'm glad koki didn't flip town before him because I would have townread dunk so damn hard.

But a) that doesn't really make me doubt myself it just makes me work harder. B) It doesn't mean I can't be right about Gamma.


Pedit - of course but I'm saying that him lying is only making his story look worse as scum.

[BuJaber]

As much as I disagree it wouldn't be the end of the world if town!gamma dies. Though of course if we continue to lose 2 townies per night we will arrive at mylo quickly.

Me debating against it is good for learning even if it fails to accomplish anything this game.

[BuJaber]

Considering brass and joey are in the game I find it unlikely they'd overlap. Is it really that important to kill nero/koki?

[BuJaber]

The other NK last night was directed at me, Nero probably Jailkept me.

Shaziro, why didn't you vig Gamma, then?

Wait do you know this for a fact?

[BuJaber]

Vig isn't a terrible claim for orange scum.

[BuJaber]

That's exactly why they'd probably avoid you.

[BuJaber]

I mean it's the classic wifom situation of do they risk losing the kill or not. Protectives and scum trying to outsmart each other.

Pedit - I feel like I'm missing something fundamental but could you explain that a different way?

[BuJaber]

I mean it's the classic wifom situation of do they risk losing the kill or not. Protectives and scum trying to outsmart each other.

Pedit - I feel like I'm missing something fundamental but could you explain that a different way?

Okay so

Theres always 1xOrange + 1xRed nightkill power correct? We know from N1 theres either 3 night kill power in game OR elbirn killed himself for visiting scum

If Shaz is mafia then he wont be able to claim a 3rd nightkill power down the road since obviously he wouldnt be able to kill 2 person per night. Also roleblocking Shaz as last mafia on his team would make him in auto loss just from being embargoed(assuming it roleblock)/jailed because then the kill of his faction would cease

Im not sure if im being clear, but basically if Shaz can prove he can make a 3third kill he cannot be part of any group scum, he can be 3p or vig

Crystal. Thank you.

Shaz is vig.

Woot I got 1 read right.

[BuJaber]

Looks like we're back to ran/klazam who I would have preferred to AD anyway. Not that AD was bad per se.

And honestly klazam sheeping AD so comically like that might attract too much attention as scum. Probably less likely to flip scum compared to ran slot.

VOTE: ceasar / pine

[BuJaber]

I'm not opposed to klazam. You made a good case and nero made a good case again ran.

[BuJaber]

A50 (and marshy and pidgey):

Okay then ... let's just ask this question and this we can go back to trusting brass 100%:

Religion spreaders: is there anything you know about religion that implies a separate wincon or anti-town consequences?
(If all 3 answer the same way then we can believe them since only one targeted brass, only one is scum, which leaves one of them having 0 reasons to lie)

Please and thank you

[BuJaber]

Sorry for asking twice didn't realize you were catching up and responding as you read.

[BuJaber]

The other NK last night was directed at me, Nero probably Jailkept me.

Shaziro, why didn't you vig Gamma, then?

Because firstly, I didn't think Gamma was scum, so why tf would I shoot him. Secondly, because the "soft guilty" on him was based on there being 3 deaths first night and Elbirn having -maybe- suggested he was going to weak bodyguard Gamma, but I knew that there were 3 kills because I had killed Dunker. So it was bullshit and I -kept telling you all that- but I wasn't about to claim then.

Oh yeah shaz being vig also means I read gamma correctly

[BuJaber]

Wanna maybe read my own ISO first?

[BuJaber]

Nicely done scum. Y'all are finally taking an offensive position.

Can we not lynch gamma despite all the rediculous pushes? PR claims that force scum to continue to lie should not be lynched early as a rule. That is in addition to the fact that gamma is playing like a townie. Unless you believe he is scum JOAT it is rediculous to suggest he gets lynched at this time.

Marshy trying to clear all religion spreaders is weird from town pov. Why are you threatened by one of A50/pidgey pptentially getting lynched?

I'm town. If klazam doesn't bother to read my ISO to determine my alignment through something other than dead scum's posts then lynch him.

See you in 2 days probably.

[BuJaber]

HEAL: embargo x3

I don't trust the religion spreaders. Haven't all game. I sincerely doubt all of them are town but I also have no evidence against it. Brass's thoughts on A50 do make sense. But anyway my position is always ban something when given a chance because we currently have the numbers advantage.

I'm sick and tired of the gamma debate and especially with titus v gamma. I don't care anymore let's lynch titus and have shaz swear to us he'll shoot gamma. If gamma doesnt die either shaz is scum or gamma is or scum have roleblock thay they used on shaz just to mess with us which means they won't kill him. All good options.

VOTE: Titus

If titus vs gamma ends up being TvT then shame on both of you.

[BuJaber]

I am not an asshole.

It's multiball. Titus flipping scum doesn't clear you 100%. And of course if titus flips town vig shot is best on you.
But more to the point even after all effort spent defending you some people still suspect you. It is not in town's favor to repeatedly come back to you.

Klazam shooting you shuts up people about you. Forces scum to find some other person to lynch in what is shaping up to be a strong townvloc and clears klazam unless there are too few kills. Even if it doesn't fully clear klaxam your death is way better than IC or whatever. I am proposing we all agree to this because in the off chance that klazam is scum we force him to shoot who we want or it's a scumclaim

[BuJaber]

Yes sorry klaz I meant shaz.

I'm with you guys I've been arguing to keep you alive even before I TR you because of the nature of your claim. I just say we need to end this debate once and for all.

Let's just lynch titus and we'll see. Who's gonna read 155 pages. Look at ceasar replacing in for example.

[BuJaber]

Yes I am against the olympic games thing.

We don't know what it is and we don't know for sure what pidgey is.
But there's a part of me that wants to see what happens if it helps us figure out who the lying religion spreader is.

[BuJaber]

I am not an asshole.

It's multiball. Titus flipping scum doesn't clear you 100%. And of course if titus flips town vig shot is best on you.
But more to the point even after all effort spent defending you some people still suspect you. It is not in town's favor to repeatedly come back to you.

Klazam shooting you shuts up people about you. Forces scum to find some other person to lynch in what is shaping up to be a strong townvloc and clears klazam unless there are too few kills. Even if it doesn't fully clear klaxam your death is way better than IC or whatever. I am proposing we all agree to this because in the off chance that klazam is scum we force him to shoot who we want or it's a scumclaim

Disagree. Gamma is very likely town regardless of Titus' alignment. She can be town and still be completely wrong.

Gamma being scum comes down to whether you believe one or more things. He visited Brass N1 when Brass was peacekept. Elbirn softed a visit to Gamma and flipped a weak role. There are too many protective roles and Gamma's claim is most suspect. If you believe one or more of those things points to Gamma being anti-town then he's anti-town regardless of Titus.

I don't believe gamma is scum. I have been proposing middle of the road suggestions compromises that people who do think he is scum should agree to.

[BuJaber]

Fine whatever
He can shoot ceasar or kiana.

[BuJaber]

Marshy if you flip town it doesn't guarantee us that you're right.
Vig shooting you so we sheep your reads makes no sense.


Gamma claims he has track left right? He tracks someone then comes day 4 tells us. If he gets called a liar either gamma or his target is scum. If his story is corroborated either he and his target are both scum or they're both town.

[BuJaber]

Gamma claims he has track left right? He tracks someone then comes day 4 tells us. If he gets called a liar either gamma or his target is scum. If his story is corroborated either he and his target are both scum or they're both town.

Gamma telling the truth about using a track doesn't make him or his target town. scum are allowed to tell the truth, you know. :>

him using the track makes the most sense, though. i don't want Gamma dead anyway but lynching him before it's used isn't a good play when we have the numbers advantage.

Ah I see. You are thinking he could be scum JOAT.

Imo that is not a possibility. He is either town JOAT or scum something else. I don't think scum JOAT does that fake watcher claim then changes his claim. Also it comes back to why would scum watch protected by resolutiom brass. Sane town protectives would not waste their shot on brass night 1. So he wasn't gonna catch any protectives if he was watching for that.

So since I don't think he is scum JOAT his track absolutely tells us his/his targets alignment as per the scenarios I laid out.

[BuJaber]

His reaction to being called out for roleplaying seems off too. Like I understand it to some extent but if you are replacing into a game and get a town PM then you would suck it up and listen to town. Seems he got pissed off and stopped posting way too quickly for him to be town. Does seem like both ran and he have just given up.

VOTE: Ceasar

[BuJaber]

I didn't realize it's been this long since I posted. I don't really have any new thoughts. Marshy is definitely putting a lot of effort now. Don't know if scum would go this far and also his reads are somewhat aligned with mine and my townbloc's.

So it's ceasar/titus for me. Klazam and shaz less sure about. I still feel convinced that one religion spreader has to be scum (unless shaz who first suggested it I think flips scum then probably not) which means now that marshy is looking like town pidgey/a50 look worse.

I don't get why everyone trusts joda. Sorry joda. I'm not saying you're scummy per se I just don't see what's obvtowm about you.

[BuJaber]

Mark you should know shaz claimed vig (the 3rd kill).

[BuJaber]

Yeah so far Mark is basically rehashing things already said.

I get why he doesn't want to post walls. But this post by post thing doesn't work. Read everything again and make notes if a post comes up that changes or negates or replaces a note you previously made or you find someone saying the exact same thing then you don't have to post it at all.

I had a game recently finish where the person catching up voted for a dead player as they were catching up and couldn't finish their catch up in time to do anything meaninful because a wagon got hammered.

At least he seems to be a fast reader.

Mark once you finish -
What do you think about the idea that 1 out of the 3 claimed religion spreaders is scum?

How do you read gamma / klazam / joda ?

Independent from the religion claim how do you read a50 / pidgey / marshy?

Do you know anything about your predecessor's meta?

Name 2-3 people you'd suggest as a vig target for shaz.

Thanks

Also anybody else who hasn't shared an opinion on these same points please do.

I think shaz should shoot within {klazam, ceasar, kiana, any religion spreader}

I think we should lynch within {klazam, ceasar, mark (pending catchup)}

[BuJaber]

@Bujaber: I don't think you claimed your flavour. Would you mind stating the ruler/civilization you belong to? Thanks.

I am KAMEHAMEHAMEHAMEHAAAAAAA

RULER OF THE POLYNESIANS.

I played this game just to get this character.
Well that is not exactly true. Game sounded cool. I signed up then looked at the list found this character and it became all I cared about.

Why are you asking though?

[BuJaber]

Let's lynch one of them already there's only so much BOTD you can give before you have to start lynching somebody.

We have a pretty small pool if lynchees if you remove townblock, religion spreaders (for now), and gamma/shaz/joda.

[BuJaber]

What is the connection in each group? (2nd row is self-explanatory)

[BuJaber]

last is i think pine is scum, which would give us a non scum group above. if for some reason he is town, then theres scum in all the above groups.

I don't understand what you mean here.

Btw I think if Kiana is scum she is last red. I don't think she would be this disengaged if she had a living partner.

[BuJaber]

Umm. How did count my vote as a chara vote

[BuJaber]

Oh because I voted for 'Ceasar' but pine is now using his main.

VOTE: Pine

[BuJaber]

My ego would grow so much if pidgey flips scum and I was the only one to call it day 1
But I think it's best we ignore religion spreaders again today.

And seriously this day is taking too long let's just consolidate on someone.

Keeping vote on pine. Intent to hammer mark or pidgey if they get to L-1.

[BuJaber]

Sorry I meant intent to hammer mark or kiana.

[BuJaber]

Replace the last pidgey with kiana and my post actually makes sense lol

[BuJaber]

Onthemark = mathblade?

Because I've interacted with mathdino and he doesn't sound like him at all.

I don't understand the argument between joey and ran. Is it important?

Joey can you explain what makes you so confident on titus read?

I am having some trouble keeping up with replacements/alt names lol.

VOTE: Kiana
Let's lynch here

Does anybody think Kiana can't be red? Because I think it explains a lot of things including the fact that it seems to be the only wagon nobody is actually defending.

Yeah she might be town but nobody seems to TR her recently. Nobody is defending her which would suggest she isn't orange. Being lonely red would explain the apathy. I am VT and Dan flipped VT so there's already 2 VTs. Gamma says she's banned so saves the mod from looking for a replacement. Maybe not optimal but things like that are expected in a large game.

[BuJaber]

Onthemark = mathblade?

Because I've interacted with mathdino and he doesn't sound like him at all.

mathblade =/= mathdino wtf

I know that lol I was asking which math is mark. I deduced it was mathblade.

Alts are confusing