Newbie 542 - Whew!

[MeMe]

What a nasty little town this has become. Mafia have arrived and are systematically gunning down the nice townfolk. What should decent, smart people do?

MOVE

, of course. What are YOU gonna do? Try to figure out who the bad guys are and lynch 'em during the daylight! I'm not kidding, folks. That's the plan. Deal with it.

Alive

(1)
HackerHuck

Dead

(6)
Korts

Townie

- lynched Day 1
Boggzie

Doctor

- killed Night 1
Battousai (replaces cyfyana)

Mafia Roleblocker

- lynched Day 2
Monkey

Cop

- killed Night 2
Disa

Townie

- lynched Day 3
Ectomancer

Townie

- killed in Endgame

No current deadline

~~~~~~~~~~~~

The roles in this game -- randomly assigned -- are:

You are the Mafia Roleblocker

. Your partner is __________ (Mafia Goon). You may only talk with each other during the game's "night," not during the "day." You will discuss with your partner overnight who you will target for your block and his kill (the actions may target the same player OR different players). Let me know, via PM, before the night's deadline who you've chosen for each action. If your partner dies, you may perform one of the mafia actions (either kill or block), but not both. You win the game when all pro-town players are dead.

As we start the game during the day phase, no choice is necessary at this time, but feel free to communicate with your partner until Day 1 begins.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are the

Mafia Goon

. Your partner is __________ (Mafia Roleblocker). You may only talk with each other during the game's "night," not during the "day." You will discuss with your partner overnight who you will target for your kill and his block (the actions may target the same player OR different players). Let me know, via PM, before the night's deadline who you've chosen for each action. If your partner dies, you may continue to kill at night -- but no more blocks will be possible. You win the game when all pro-town players are dead.

As we start the game during the day phase, no choice is necessary at this time, but feel free to communicate with your partner until Day 1 begins.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are the cop

. Every "night" before the deadline you send me a message with a name of your choice, and I will let you know whether that player is mafia or not. You are not allowed to communicate with any of the other players outside the thread. You win the game when the mafia are dead.

As we start the game during the day phase, no choice is necessary at this time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

You are the doctor

. Every "night" before the deadline you send me a message with a name of your choice, and that player cannot die if attacked by the mafia that night. You cannot heal yourself. You are not allowed to communicate with any of the other players outside the thread. You win the game when the mafia are dead.

As we start the game during the day phase, no choice is necessary at this time.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
3 players will receive:

You are a townie

. You are not allowed to communicate with any of the other players outside the thread. You win the game when the mafia are dead.

[MeMe]

Mr. Flay (hereafter known as "Mr Awesome") had the game cached. This should keep us going if the game is unrecoverable.
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[MeMe]

Page 1

Everyone's got their role -- seven alive means it takes four votes to lynch.

Game on!

Vote: Boggzie

Hey Everybody

Random Vote: Korts

Vote: Boggzie

OMGUS!

Vote: Hacker

...plus you look suspicious; like I know you from somewhere.

hmmmm

Hello everyone. I hope that these meetings will aid us in defending our quaint town and restoring peace.

Random

vote: HackerHuck

Ok, well 4 of the 7 have checked, I guess that's a good start.

Haven't noted anything scummy yet. I'll get back to you on that one I s'pose.

I'll keep my vote where it is for now, at least 'til Korts checks in.

unvote

...while it would be terribly bad play, scum could drop two quick votes and we'd be screwed, so, Hacker - you get a reprieve. Until I find you scummy.

:: evil eye ::

It'd be a pretty bold move at this point for mafia to just jump on, don't you think? If it were a different day in the game I could understand your retaliation, however if scum decided to jump on Hacker's wagon today they wouldn't stand a chance in the following two days.

Whose to say that of either yourself or disa aren't the scum, and on top of that, that Hacker isn't scum.

Fos: Boggzie

I think that the possibility of boggzie being scum is slight since you seem so hesitant to have two votes on a player so early. It could just mean that he's a townie over concerned in regards to scum jumping on, but as I said earlier, I just don't see it happening at this point.

I have to agree with Monkey here and also add that, if you thought it would be such a terribly bad play by scum to jump on, why wouldn't you leave it out there for the remote chance that they would take it?

:: shakes head ::

Would you prefer I put the vote back on Hacker?

I mean seriously, this is a newbie game, if we have two newbie scum they could hop on whomever has two, NK one of us, and there we are with them only having to convince one townie to vote with them and it's GAME OVER on Day 2.

I find it silly to leave two

random

votes on someone and risk it. Frankly, when I unvoted I was worried someone would see it as scummy, but being we're still at page 1 day 1 I think there's plenty of time for me to convince whomever otherwise before someone drops the hammer.

Hey everybody,

Sorry for being entirely ignorant, but could someone fill me in on what NK means?

..And yeah, it's my first game.

NK = Night Kill - In this game only scum can kill at night, but in other types of games, town can have a killing role at night as well.

:: shakes head ::

Would you prefer I put the vote back on Hacker?

I mean seriously, this is a newbie game, if we have two newbie scum they could hop on whomever has two, NK one of us, and there we are with them only having to convince one townie to vote with them and it's GAME OVER on Day 2.

I find it silly to leave two

random

votes on someone and risk it. Frankly, when I unvoted I was worried someone would see it as scummy, but being we're still at page 1 day 1 I think there's plenty of time for me to convince whomever otherwise before someone drops the hammer.

Are you asking me what you should do? That is a theme in your post. Concern about what others might think about what you do...

No, my question was why you would dismantle a trap that you felt scum would be stupid to stumble into. Now you argue that it wouldn't be stupid, as all they would have to do is convince one of us to vote with them. So which is it? Would it be stupid for scum to both jump on a quicklynch, or would it be smart because they would only have to convince 1 of us to join them in the next lynch?

Are you asking me what you should do? That is a theme in your post. Concern about what others might think about what you do...

No, I'm not asking what you want me to do, it's a rhetorical question meant to make a point. And I certainly do care what others think about me within the confines of this game - it could directly effect the outcome.

No, my question was why you would dismantle a trap that you felt scum would be stupid to stumble into. Now you argue that it wouldn't be stupid, as all they would have to do is convince one of us to vote with them. So which is it? Would it be stupid for scum to both jump on a quicklynch, or would it be smart because they would only have to convince 1 of us to join them in the next lynch?

It would be stupid, however

as stated

we are in a newbie game. There is a chance they could use it and find themselves in the situation I described in my previous post. Whereas they would need to only convince one player, quite possibly a newbie, to vote their way and we lose the game. It's a helluva gambit to try, but look at the set-up -

Hacker is experienced.
You're experienced.
I'm experienced.

Let's say one of us is Mafia, in this instance we'll use you.

Hacker has two, my random and disa's (?) random - you jump on and your newbie follows suit.

You NK me.

That leaves the only you (IC scum) and his newbie partner as scum to convince one of the other three newbies That disa and someone else are the scum. Frankly - it wouldn't be all that difficult. Hell, you could even bus your partner to seal the win.

My point with "stupid" was it would be shortsighted, and a tough gambit. Moreover, why risk it?

The whole tone of your reply is that I should have left my vote there and taken the risk in an effort to flush scum out. Well, I think as I've stated - that'd be pretty stupid to risk it

Now,

Monkey

, and

Ectomancer

why does an unvote give you a scumtell, or look suspicious? Why not call Disa for laying a second random vote and possibly putting us in the hypothetical situation I was trying to avoid? I find it very troubling the move to pull away a possible negative situation for our town is giving you a scumtell.

Monkey - I can discount as newb play, maybe, it's still early and frankly I need to see more. I'd still like an answer.

Ecto - you've got enough experience to see the whole picture. So, I'd like to hear you defend why you're quick to focus on an unvote rather than call someone for piling on during the random phase.

Disa

- While I was hoping to wait and see how you would play, we need to hear now why your random vote just happened to fall on a player with one vote already.

And as an aside for all the new players here - quick lynches only benefit Mafia. A Lynch on Day 1 Page 1 would be a terrible way to start down the wrong road. I don't think there's any player that would disagree.

I think that Boggzie appears to be backpedaling here. I don't understand why you are so concerned with having two votes on someone. I'd be happy if the scum quicklynched me day one and you should be too.

I'm concerned that you're so jumpy on page one.

FoS Boggzie

It is a bad move for town to press for a quick lynch. My rule of thumb is no lynch before page four in a newbie game, otherwise we go into night with very little post analysis possible.

Sorry Boggzie, you failed to answer the question. You are also trying for a misdirect. Your unvote itself has little to do with my questioning of your statements and actions. It is the effect of it I question. Let's try again.

You stated that it would be stupid for scum to fall into the trap of speed lynching.
You also stated that it would be stupid for town to leave the trap out for scum to stumble into.

These are mutually exclusive statements. I'd like clarification on your position. If you changed your mind from your original position, I'd like to see it stated plainly.
Is it stupid for scum to risk the move? Or is it stupid for town to risk them taking the gamble?

Why not call Disa for laying a second random vote and possibly putting us in the hypothetical situation I was trying to avoid? I find it very troubling the move to pull away a possible negative situation for our town is giving you a scumtell.

But didn't you say it would be stupid for scum to take it? Why would I call out Disa for setting a trap you think it would be stupid for scum to fall into?

You see Boggzie, you want both sides of the fence. Choose a side and get on it. The gambit is either riskier for one or the other, or it is equally risky for both. If equally risky, then it is simply a mechanism to move us past the random stage and not worth your "the sky might fall" move away from it.
If it is inherently riskier for town to try the move, then we could put pressure on a player trying it, as that would be scummy, wouldn't it? You've got the fence though. Having stated that it would be stupid for scum, and that it would be stupid for town, you've given yourself an out if called on it.

Now, Monkey, and Ectomancer why does an unvote give you a scumtell, or look suspicious?

An unvote in an of itself doesn't, there is much more to it then that.

1. It's day 1, and if we all only voted for one person ... then where would we be? Placing a second vote onto a player early on doesn't count as suspicious to me.

unvote

...while it would be terribly bad play, scum could drop two quick votes and we'd be screwed, so, Hacker - you get a reprieve. Until I find you scummy.

2. You admit directly after you've unvoted that if scum drop two quick votes it would be bad play, which you're right, it would be on there part because again it would just get them lynched and point them out. Even for a new player I would hope that they could easily figure out that the two who added on those votes were scum since who (that being town) in their right mind would add onto an unwarrented lynch?

3. Finally, at the rate that this game was moving, if a third vote were landed I'm sure you could have arrived and saved the day by unvoting, because as 'town' that would be the right move ...

How do you ever expect to have the conversation pick up if we all have one vote on us? On any other day in the game, depending on town to scum ratio, I could understand the quick retaliation, but not on the first day .. That's what random voting and the like is all about.

Monkey - I can discount as newb play, maybe, it's still early and frankly I need to see more. I'd still like an answer.

Well, I've answered to the best of my ability ... The way you've reacted to an fos has been noted though, and I'm not trying to say that you are indeed scum. Your logic may work differently then my own which is why I LOVE this game.

Also may I just note that I don't think that finding something suspicious should be considered 'newb play', possibly a different thought process.

You can't blame me for pointing something I find suspicious out as that is the idea of the game, right?

Also, I noted the question you asked Disa in my readings, and not to make a defense for Disa here, but randomly voting can involve a multiple ways of choosing. Dice roll, writing down a number randomly and choosing that player, "Don't like the name", and so on and so forth .. hence a random vote.

If Disa didn't label her vote as random I may have been more concerned with it, but since she did and since she's what you like to call a newb, it's hard for me to find fault with it compared to the way you reacted to it.

Hey everyone, sorry for being a bit late, I'm in Europe.

Anyway, completelynonrandom

vote monkey

cos OMGUS.

On a more serious level: FoS Boggzie for too much talk and the patronizing tone. I mean, I have read the wiki and a lot of forums, and anyway, I'm not exactly stupid, either.

Sooo, Monkey, you don't like my name?

Sooo, Monkey, you don't like my name?

Dice roll, writing down a number randomly and choosing that player, "Don't like the name", and so on and so forth .. hence a random vote.

These would all be examples, not personal opinions.

Since you brought it up though, I'd have to say that I'm happy with it if you are

Since you brought it up though, I'd have to say that I'm happy with it if you are

I'm good.

Please note - out of previous experience, I try to reply to each player in separate posts so I don't confuse people; (mainly myself )

I'd be happy if the scum quicklynched me day one and you should be too.

Really?

It is a bad move for town to press for a quick lynch.

Yet I raise suspicision?

My rule of thumb is no lynch before page four in a newbie game, otherwise we go into night with very little post analysis possible.

So you feel the same as me? According to some other players here we need to pick a side of the fence and get on it. This feeling is in direct disagreement with eachother, raises your suspicision of me, but you feel the same? It's a bad play for both sides, but I get an FoS - ooookay.

You stated that it would be stupid for scum to fall into the trap of speed lynching.
You also stated that it would be stupid for town to leave the trap out for scum to stumble into.

It is both -

this early

, and Hacker clearly agrees. However, as clarification I didn't say the "trap" was stupid, it's stupid to leave the door open on page one. We gain NOTHING from a quick lynch. We can take no analysis from the day, and leaves us in a position to almost enevitably lose.

You're building a mountain from a molehill here. An unvote is rarely, IF EVER, considered scummy, and I feel you're only pressing this because it's a newbie game, which I find troubling.

How do you ever expect to have the conversation pick up if we all have one vote on us?

On page 1? Like most any other game, accusations and defenses. see; exactly what we're doing.

Well, I've answered to the best of my ability

I think you answered just fine.

You can't blame me for pointing something I find suspicious out as that is the idea of the game, right?

Not at all. Just as I noted that I did care what people thought of me, as that's the point of the game. However, my point has been an unvote isn't suspicious, which is where my "newbie" comment came in.

If Disa didn't label her vote as random I may have been more concerned with it, but since she did and since she's what you like to call a newb, it's hard for me to find fault with it compared to the way you reacted to it.

Noted, but I think everyone is getting caught up on the motivation of my unvote rather than looking at the strategy of typical games, and the fact that the unvote came at exactly 8 posts into the entire game.

[MeMe]

Page 2

So - now I'm in quite a bind.

If I slip into what my fellow "townies" would like me to do, I place that vote back on Hacker.

However, then it's many things to be called on.

OMGUS vote.
Reactionary.
WIFOM trap.

I also feel like at least ONE Mafia is involved here, painted me into quite a corner with where or how I place my vote for lay an FOS.

Interesting.

Vote Count

HackerHuck

(1):

Disa

Boggzie

(1):

HackerHuck

Korts

(1):

Monkey

Monkey

(1):

Korts

not voting

(3):

Boggzie, cyfyana, Ectomancer

Four to lynch.

unvote

vote Boggzie

for being irritating in a very scummy manner.

But, be as it may, it's not because your arguments were very convincing. Rather the reaction. Very sudden, very intense. Very defensive. Either he's scum, or a rather irritating townie.

unvote

vote Boggzie

for being irritating in a very scummy manner.

For being irritating?

I answered each and every one of their questions, if that's irritating - you've got a lot to learn.

For an absolute terrible reason for laying a vote -

vote: Korts.

...oh, and there's your two votes with a reason, rather than "random" Ecto, Monkey, and Hacker.

My vote was purely random with no bias against anyone personally. I didn't intend to start any trouble or a quick lynch situation.

I will

unvote

and take some time to re-read over the arguments and discussion so far.

Yeah, Boggzie, I know my reason is a bit lame, but you did far more explaining than was needed, in my opinion. And you know, the other lame reason, the vibes. Ooooo, heck yeah.

Yeah, and I forgot, that patronizing tone. You know, I may be a bit on the fresh side, but folks just don't like being spoken to like they be idiots. Well. Anyway. Keep it up.

You stated that it would be stupid for scum to fall into the trap of speed lynching.
You also stated that it would be stupid for town to leave the trap out for scum to stumble into.

It is both -

this early

, and Hacker clearly agrees. However, as clarification I didn't say the "trap" was stupid, it's stupid to leave the door open on page one. We gain NOTHING from a quick lynch. We can take no analysis from the day, and leaves us in a position to almost enevitably lose.

You're building a mountain from a molehill here. An unvote is rarely, IF EVER, considered scummy, and I feel you're only pressing this because it's a newbie game, which I find troubling.

Au contraire, if scum doubled up on the wagon for a quick lynch, we would then have both scum and a certain town win, not NOTHING. Hackerhuck's point about getting to page 4 is moot if scum is willing to step up and announce themselves with a quick lynch like that, hence his statement that he would be happy for scum to quicklynch him. I would be too.

I am building nothing here, certainly not a mountain from a molehill. I am attempting to get you to clarify your stance on what is 2 mutually opposed opinions, because you have stated both.
Is it a bad play for scum to take the trap? If it is, then you should have left it out there on the offchance that they might have done so, thereby flagging themselves and assuring a town win.
Or, is it a bad trap for town to set? If so, then it couldn't be a bad play for scum to trigger it.

So, it is either an anti-town play to leave the trap out there, if it benefited scum to trigger it, or it is anti-town play to dismantle it, and call attention to the trap itself (thereby warning a scum partner to avoid it).

The longer you avoid taking a solid stance the more suspicious you become.

HackerHuck wrote:
My rule of thumb is no lynch before page four in a newbie game, otherwise we go into night with very little post analysis possible.

So you feel the same as me? According to some other players here we need to pick a side of the fence and get on it. This feeling is in direct disagreement with eachother, raises your suspicision of me, but you feel the same? It's a bad play for both sides, but I get an FoS - ooookay.

I also note another tendency to misrepresent the statements of others. I am the player asking you to choose whether a very specific trap benefits town, or benefits scum, yet you misrepresent my intentions to force you to state a solid opinion on that trap, and imply that I am attempting to get you to quick lynch. Bad style points for you.

You stated that it would be stupid for scum to fall into the trap of speed lynching.
You also stated that it would be stupid for town to leave the trap out for scum to stumble into.

It is both -

this early

, and Hacker clearly agrees. However, as clarification I didn't say the "trap" was stupid, it's stupid to leave the door open on page one. We gain NOTHING from a quick lynch. We can take no analysis from the day, and leaves us in a position to almost enevitably lose.

You're building a mountain from a molehill here. An unvote is rarely, IF EVER, considered scummy, and I feel you're only pressing this because it's a newbie game, which I find troubling.

Au contraire, if scum doubled up on the wagon for a quick lynch, we would then have both scum and a certain town win, not NOTHING. Hackerhuck's point about getting to page 4 is moot if scum is willing to step up and announce themselves with a quick lynch like that, hence his statement that he would be happy for scum to quicklynch him. I would be too.

I am building nothing here, certainly not a mountain from a molehill. I am attempting to get you to clarify your stance on what is 2 mutually opposed opinions, because you have stated both.
Is it a bad play for scum to take the trap? If it is, then you should have left it out there on the offchance that they might have done so, thereby flagging themselves and assuring a town win.
Or, is it a bad trap for town to set? If so, then it couldn't be a bad play for scum to trigger it.

So, it is either an anti-town play to leave the trap out there, if it benefited scum to trigger it, or it is anti-town play to dismantle it, and call attention to the trap itself (thereby warning a scum partner to avoid it).

The longer you avoid taking a solid stance the more suspicious you become.

HackerHuck wrote:
My rule of thumb is no lynch before page four in a newbie game, otherwise we go into night with very little post analysis possible.

So you feel the same as me? According to some other players here we need to pick a side of the fence and get on it. This feeling is in direct disagreement with eachother, raises your suspicision of me, but you feel the same? It's a bad play for both sides, but I get an FoS - ooookay.

I also note another tendency to misrepresent the statements of others. I am the player asking you to choose whether a very specific trap benefits town, or benefits scum, yet you misrepresent my intentions to force you to state a solid opinion on that trap, and imply that I am attempting to get you to quick lynch. Bad style points for you.

Site lagging, sorry about the double post.

Am I seeing double? I think I had one shot too many.

Oh yeah. Well, one more shot then.

You stated that it would be stupid for scum to fall into the trap of speed lynching.
You also stated that it would be stupid for town to leave the trap out for scum to stumble into.

It is both -

this early

, and Hacker clearly agrees. However, as clarification I didn't say the "trap" was stupid, it's stupid to leave the door open on page one. We gain NOTHING from a quick lynch. We can take no analysis from the day, and leaves us in a position to almost enevitably lose.

You're building a mountain from a molehill here. An unvote is rarely, IF EVER, considered scummy, and I feel you're only pressing this because it's a newbie game, which I find troubling.

Au contraire, if scum doubled up on the wagon for a quick lynch, we would then have both scum and a certain town win, not NOTHING. Hackerhuck's point about getting to page 4 is moot if scum is willing to step up and announce themselves with a quick lynch like that, hence his statement that he would be happy for scum to quicklynch him. I would be too.

I am building nothing here, certainly not a mountain from a molehill. I am attempting to get you to clarify your stance on what is 2 mutually opposed opinions, because you have stated both.
Is it a bad play for scum to take the trap? If it is, then you should have left it out there on the offchance that they might have done so, thereby flagging themselves and assuring a town win.
Or, is it a bad trap for town to set? If so, then it couldn't be a bad play for scum to trigger it.

So, it is either an anti-town play to leave the trap out there, if it benefited scum to trigger it, or it is anti-town play to dismantle it, and call attention to the trap itself (thereby warning a scum partner to avoid it).

The longer you avoid taking a solid stance the more suspicious you become.

HackerHuck wrote:
My rule of thumb is no lynch before page four in a newbie game, otherwise we go into night with very little post analysis possible.

So you feel the same as me? According to some other players here we need to pick a side of the fence and get on it. This feeling is in direct disagreement with eachother, raises your suspicision of me, but you feel the same? It's a bad play for both sides, but I get an FoS - ooookay.

I also note another tendency to misrepresent the statements of others. I am the player asking you to choose whether a very specific trap benefits town, or benefits scum, yet you misrepresent my intentions to force you to state a solid opinion on that trap, and imply that I am attempting to get you to quick lynch. Bad style points for you.

You're overlooking the "

this early

", as I thought you may, that's why I bolded it.

...note another tendency to misrepresent the statements of others.

Funny, considering you omitted my answer to you altogether.

I'm not explaining it all over again, feel free to re-read stressing the "

this early

" as I did. Now, if you'd like to toss hypothetical situations regarding the timeframe I'll be happy to answer them one-by-one.

Yeah, and I forgot, that patronizing tone. You know, I may be a bit on the fresh side, but folks just don't like being spoken to like they be idiots. Well. Anyway. Keep it up.

"Tone" doesn't come across in text. I meant no harm in being "patronizing", the comment was only meant to underline how silly I thought the reasoning was. My apologies.

Yeah, and I forgot, that patronizing tone. You know, I may be a bit on the fresh side, but folks just don't like being spoken to like they be idiots. Well. Anyway. Keep it up.

"Tone" doesn't come across in text. I meant no harm in being "patronizing", the comment was only meant to underline how silly I thought the reasoning was. My apologies.

site is lagging BAAAAAd

Well, what should I say instead of "tone"? Wording sounds plain stupid. Reasoning's silly, but I'm not experienced in the mechanics and loopholes of the game, because I, as you rightly said, am a newbie. And proud of it. Okay, anyway, no problem, I guess it must be tiring being IC.

Anyway, as Ectomancer says

So, it is either an anti-town play to leave the trap out there, if it benefited scum to trigger it, or it is anti-town play to dismantle it, and call attention to the trap itself (thereby warning a scum partner to avoid it).

This is intriguing, and I really don't know what to say, but I don't think those are the only possibilities. It may be pro-town play to trigger discussion. How about that?

Oh yeah, forgot.

unvote

cos being patronizing ain't a sin. As of yet. But I'm watching, Boggzie.

You stated that it would be stupid for scum to fall into the trap of speed lynching.
You also stated that it would be stupid for town to leave the trap out for scum to stumble into.

It is both -

this early

, and Hacker clearly agrees. However, as clarification I didn't say the "trap" was stupid, it's stupid to leave the door open on page one. We gain NOTHING from a quick lynch. We can take no analysis from the day, and leaves us in a position to almost enevitably lose.

You're building a mountain from a molehill here. An unvote is rarely, IF EVER, considered scummy, and I feel you're only pressing this because it's a newbie game, which I find troubling.

Au contraire, if scum doubled up on the wagon for a quick lynch, we would then have both scum and a certain town win, not NOTHING. Hackerhuck's point about getting to page 4 is moot if scum is willing to step up and announce themselves with a quick lynch like that, hence his statement that he would be happy for scum to quicklynch him. I would be too.

I am building nothing here, certainly not a mountain from a molehill. I am attempting to get you to clarify your stance on what is 2 mutually opposed opinions, because you have stated both.
Is it a bad play for scum to take the trap? If it is, then you should have left it out there on the offchance that they might have done so, thereby flagging themselves and assuring a town win.
Or, is it a bad trap for town to set? If so, then it couldn't be a bad play for scum to trigger it.

So, it is either an anti-town play to leave the trap out there, if it benefited scum to trigger it, or it is anti-town play to dismantle it, and call attention to the trap itself (thereby warning a scum partner to avoid it).

The longer you avoid taking a solid stance the more suspicious you become.

HackerHuck wrote:
My rule of thumb is no lynch before page four in a newbie game, otherwise we go into night with very little post analysis possible.

So you feel the same as me? According to some other players here we need to pick a side of the fence and get on it. This feeling is in direct disagreement with eachother, raises your suspicision of me, but you feel the same? It's a bad play for both sides, but I get an FoS - ooookay.

I also note another tendency to misrepresent the statements of others. I am the player asking you to choose whether a very specific trap benefits town, or benefits scum, yet you misrepresent my intentions to force you to state a solid opinion on that trap, and imply that I am attempting to get you to quick lynch. Bad style points for you.

You're overlooking the "

this early

", as I thought you may, that's why I bolded it.

...note another tendency to misrepresent the statements of others.

Funny, considering you omitted my answer to you altogether.

I'm not explaining it all over again, feel free to re-read stressing the "this early" as I did. Now, if you'd like to toss hypothetical situations regarding the timeframe I'll be happy to answer them one-by-one.

"This early" has no relevance on the question at hand. If scum fall into the trap, we have them both. Page 1 or Page 100 makes no difference if you know who is scum.

Exactly why are you lying now? You are saying that I ommitted your answer to me altogether, yet there it is in the quote? Is it meant to diminish my points? You did indeed misrepresent my questions to you. It was clear that I was asking you to take a stance on the trap comment, yet you used it to imply that I was pressing you to a quicklynch, which is not the same at all.

Your argumentative style is only going to get you lynched. The more you try to add strawmen and distraction techniques to your debate, the more it looks like you have something to hide. There is nothing wrong with being wrong, or changing your mind. Attempting to cover the fact that you were wrong, or changed your mind does raise flags however, and you would be better off trying to convince me of your honesty than to try to win points in a verbal sparring match.

Woo, go Ecto! As I said, can it be that it's only pro-town play to trigger discussion without a townie lynched day 1 and a townie NK-ed night 1? Cos with this trap, it'd be a pretty close run even if scum fall for it and we can tell them from the others, who voted. It may be that one of the scum was already voting for the quicklynchee, so either the plan wouldn't work, or out of the other two voters, one would be scum, but the other would be townie. So that way we'd lynch a pro-town D1, a pro-town dies N1, we'd lynch maybe another pro-town D2, a pro-town dies N2, the count would be three town, two scum. I may be wrong, but this seems to me a pretty idiotic strategy in the long term.

Woo, go Ecto! As I said, can it be that it's only pro-town play to trigger discussion without a townie lynched day 1 and a townie NK-ed night 1? Cos with this trap, it'd be a pretty close run even if scum fall for it and we can tell them from the others, who voted. It may be that one of the scum was already voting for the quicklynchee, so either the plan wouldn't work, or out of the other two voters, one would be scum, but the other would be townie. So that way we'd lynch a pro-town D1, a pro-town dies N1, we'd lynch maybe another pro-town D2, a pro-town dies N2, the count would be three town, two scum. I may be wrong, but this seems to me a pretty idiotic strategy in the long term.

Now that's a good answer Korts. So you believe that Boggzie did the right thing as a general rule.
Now, do you think that the manner in which he did it was suspicious? Did he try overly hard to get into town's good graces by bringing it up, or was it possible communication to a scum buddy, warning them to avoid the trap of a quicklynch?

Did he try overly hard to get into town's good graces by bringing it up, or was it possible communication to a scum buddy, warning them to avoid the trap of a quicklynch?

You know, you have a point, Ecto. But I'm not sure a complete newbie would even try a quicklynch, or realize the possibility. I wouldn't have.

But if Boggzie was scum, which I currently doubt he is, he'd have stayed on Hacker's bandwagon. Then he'd have no more of a problem than not to raise any suspicion day 2. As I said, as far as my count is correct, a quicklynch is good for the mafia, and if he was scum, he'd have stayed put.

[MeMe]

Page 3

Oh, and hey, my count is wrong.

So that way we'd lynch a pro-town D1, a pro-town dies N1, we'd lynch maybe another pro-town D2, a pro-town dies N2, the count would be three town, two scum.

It's even worse, cos I counted with 7 townies and 2 goons, but there are only 5 pro-town. So a quicklynch that gets a townie in a game with this many players is always bad: Day 1 pro-town, Night 1 pro-town, and if we get it wrong Day 2, it'll be 2 town, 2 mafia, and that's losing. Well. So all in favor of a quicklynch be lynched!

Now the only question is, who was in favor of a quicklynch? I think it was you, Ecto.

vote Ectomancer

Now the only question is, who was in favor of a quicklynch? I think it was you, Ecto.

vote Ectomancer

Actually, that is the picture Boggzie was painting, which is what prompted my cry of misrepresentation. If you will re-read, you will find that I have pressured him to take a side on the argument on whether that trap would be bad for scum or bad for town, as he said both.
I haven't actually said whether the trap has merit or not.

I haven't actually said whether the trap has merit or not.

It's just the last two sentences of the following that give me the feeling that you do.

Au contraire, if scum doubled up on the wagon for a quick lynch, we would then have both scum and a certain town win, not NOTHING. Hackerhuck's point about getting to page 4 is moot if scum is willing to step up and announce themselves with a quick lynch like that, hence his statement that he would be happy for scum to quicklynch him. I would be too.

I mean, of course, not that you do, but that you did (did say if it has merit)

I would be happy if scum quicklynched him. The point remaining to be debated on that front would be whether or not the 2 that jumped on were scum or not. Overall, as you could not say for certain whether they were scum or not, the trap is not a certain win for town, even if triggered. You could have had an inattentive player put things at L-1, meaning possibly only 1 of those players were scum. That means we would be depending upon a cop investigation the next day to tell us one way or another on their night choice (assuming the cop survived the night). Putting the town at L-2 to catch scum trying to quicklynch is not only not a sure bet, but also difficult to entice them to step into it.
L-1 however, is a far more interesting situation, but should only be played if you really think you have an understanding of the other players in the game.

Boggzie should have been able to explain his contradictory stances without help though.

Boggzie should have been able to explain his contradictory stances without help though.

I've read the day through, and the only thing that bothers me with Boggzie is that he didn't admit he was wrong, when he clearly was. I'm not gonna quote, cos I'm lazy, but yeah. Point taken.

I'm still voting for you, though. I really don't have much of a choice, seeing as the rest of the guys didn't really contribute yet.

Vote Count

Korts

(2):

Monkey, Boggzie

Boggzie

(1):

HackerHuck

Ectomancer

(1):

Korts

not voting

(3):

cyfyana, Disa, Ectomancer

Still need four

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And I'll be out of town for the next two days -- play nice while I'm gone!

...oh, and there's your two votes with a reason, rather than "random" Ecto, Monkey, and Hacker.

A bit spiteful ain't ya?

My vote was purely random with no bias against anyone personally. I didn't intend to start any trouble or a quick lynch situation.

You didn't

Oh yeah, forgot. unvote cos being patronizing ain't a sin. As of yet. But I'm watching, Boggzie.

True

Did he (Boggzie) try overly hard to get into town's good graces by bringing it up?

I know that your question was directed to Korts, but I'd like to state that for the record that this reasoning is IMO related to Boggzie's earlier event. Just stating for the record, I couldn't find the wording I needed earlier to come out and say that I suppose.

But if Boggzie was scum, which I currently doubt he is, he'd have stayed on Hacker's bandwagon. Then he'd have no more of a problem than not to raise any suspicion day 2. As I said, as far as my count is correct, a quicklynch is good for the mafia, and if he was scum, he'd have stayed put.

I don't agree due to the quote/answer before this one .. (if that makes sense).

You're doubtful that Boggzie is scum b/c he didn't leave a his vote on hacker's wagon. Scum do like to play tricks sometimes and one of those tricks is to look like scum. Your reasoning doesn't make me doubt him as scum at all.

I'll comment more when I have time later, possibly tomorrow.

unvote

I really believe the way Ecto is microanalysing the unvote of Hacker, there isn't a "correct" answer, or one that would satisfy him. I answered your question, I have been everything but argumentative. It really seems like you're just poking and prodding at nothing. Timeframe has

everything

to do with it. That thought was even supported by two other players now; a quick lynch benefits no one but Mafia, and while there was the off-chance they'd fall into a trap, there's was an equal off-chance it would play to their favor, and I wasn't willing to take the "

stupid

" risk. That is your answer - if you're unsatisfied with it, stop dancing and lay a vote on me.

Took long enough for you to make it.

So, if the chance was equal, then it wasn't stupid either way was it? It's a wash, as it could work out in favor of either town or scum right?
Therefore it wouldn't matter whether you unvoted or not. Chances are equal for either town or scum to benefit from it, or be hurt by it.

So if the sum result of your move was a non-effect, why did you do it? A simple unvote is one thing and is usually left alone after the random stage, but implying that you did it for the benefit of the town (it would be stupid to leave it there) is another. Hence my assertion that it was done, with the corresponding statement, to appear more "townie". Coupled with your other statements, a track record appears whereby you are very concerned about how you appear to the rest of us. How can I be certain that this unvote, followed by the "it would be stupid" comment, isn't one of your attempts to influence how you are viewed? It leads me to wonder whether you are concerned because you are scum, or because you feel town should always be concerned about their image. One possibility would lead to your lynch, the other possibility concerns me nearly as much. We need town looking for scum, not worried about covering their own butts. Be honest in your actions and statements and you shouldnt have to worry.

Wow, three pages already and we're not quite two days into it.

Boggzie, could you remind me which Newbie game we were in together? IIRC, I helped string you up as a townie and I'd like to take another look at it.

I think that the scum might be sitting on the sidelines watching this one to see which way the wind blows. Korts seemed a bit opportunistic in his vote on Ecto and I'd like to see something from Cyfyana - how exactly do you say that?

FoS: Korts and Cyfyana[ /b]

Drat, I somehow turned off my BBCode there.

FoS: Korts and Cyfyana

Sorry for the double post.

Hacker, I don't really understand how I was opportunistic. Do explain.

Ecto, I have to add, if he is honest in his actions and statements, yet he is scum, he really would suck at this game and thus should have good reason to worry. It's not a game to be played with honesty, or at least not always.

I think, Monkey, that I deduced very clearly how quicklynching is bad for town. Now, I don't know about Boggzie, but any townie with a calculator would arrive at the same conclusion. Of course, it could be that he was only trying to semm more townie, I don't know.

EBWOP: seem more townie.

Anyway, I won't be around for about a day, I'll be back later.

until then:

unvote

cos I wanna know who we're lynching.

Ecto, I have to add, if he is honest in his actions and statements, yet he is scum, he really would suck at this game and thus should have good reason to worry. It's not a game to be played with honesty, or at least not always.

Think about that for a minute.

Took long enough for you to make it.

I don't even know what this is in reference to.

So, if the chance was equal, then it wasn't stupid either way was it? It's a wash, as it could work out in favor of either town or scum right?
Therefore it wouldn't matter whether you unvoted or not. Chances are equal for either town or scum to benefit from it, or be hurt by it.

Sure it mattered if I unvoted. For like the third time, timing and the fact that this is a newbie game, it wasn't a chance I was willing to take. Why is that so hard to understand. The off-hand comment about it being stupid for scum agrees with your assertion that it was a trap and they would easily be smoked out, whereas my stance is this is a newbie game and too early. It is BOTH based in strategy for both sides. There is no wash, there is no definite black and white in this game, and you've been playing long enough to know it. Which is highly troubling.

So if the sum result of your move was a non-effect, why did you do it?

I've explained myself, you're talking in circles and beating a dead horse is becoming less and less "scum-hunting-esque", and more and more diversionary.

A simple unvote is one thing and is usually left alone after the random stage, but implying that you did it for the benefit of the town (it would be stupid to leave it there) is another. Hence my assertion that it was done, with the corresponding statement, to appear more "townie".

Mountains from molehills as already stated, and answered, but you insist on drawing things out. Why?

Coupled with your other statements, a track record appears whereby you are very concerned about how you appear to the rest of us.

HELLO? Welcome to Mafia Scum, I'm Boggzie, this is Monkey, over here is Disa, etc and so forth - that's the game! The perceptions of your fellow players is EVERYTHING. Why would you focus on that as "bad", or implicate it as a scummy? It's neither - it's the game. And you know that full-well, another very troubling aspect of your questioning, and beating this dead horse further.

How can I be certain that this unvote, followed by the "it would be stupid" comment, isn't one of your attempts to influence how you are viewed? It leads me to wonder whether you are concerned because you are scum, or because you feel town should always be concerned about their image. One possibility would lead to your lynch, the other possibility concerns me nearly as much. We need town looking for scum, not worried about covering their own butts. Be honest in your actions and statements and you shouldnt have to worry.

You're right - absolutely right "we need town looking for scum" would be some advice I'd hand to you as you've now made exactly 10 posts out of your 11 total (the one other being the lagging comment) focused solely on discussion of an unvote made in post 8 of this game. When we're now at 68 or 69? Also leading me to solely defend in nearly every post I've made. Everyone needs to look at that and think about it FAR more than a post 8 unvote

FoS Ectomancer

I don't believe you can attribute your dodging of the issue to me. If I make too many posts for you, you'll just have to get used to it, especially if you dance around the bush too often.
Belittling a scumtell does not make it any less of one. As you say, your perception in the game is everything, including for scum, therefore any attempt to artificially affect that standing in town's eyes is suspect, as you well know.
My net assessment of your unvote was that it was a null action. No change in likelyhood for town or scum to benefit, yet you made the action, so there must be an underlying cause.
I believe there is one of two. Either you did it, as I said, to make yourself look more "townie", thereby making you suspicious, for as I said, artificially enhancing your image is more than likely the act of scum. Or, you had no idea what you were talking about when you unvoted and made 2 contradictory statements. For some reason, you don't wish to admit to being wrong on one count or another. That however, could be a personality trait possessed by either town or scum and so you might be let off the hook.

Boggzie, as you've claimed my persistent questioning of you to be diversionary, please be so kind as to direct me to the main event. After all, there must be something else in order for me to be diverting from it.
By the way, there is no statute of limitations on assessing your statements and actions. Post 8 or 800. Your defense has now been reduced to complaining that getting a full answer from you is taking too long. Weren't you saying earlier that more pages before we lynch is a good thing?
It's amazing how much you protest, and I haven't even voted for you yet.

I have answered your "issue" no less than three times, and you're simply unsatisfied.

I reiterate - lay a vote already, I'm clearly your only target. Tunnel vision is a scumtell and it's very troubling. I'll also reiterate - a post 8 unvote isn't a scumtell, unless you happen to making mountains from molehills to keep the conversations from going anywhere else. (see: diversionary) You have not let anything else be discussed, which was my entire point, thank you for underlining it.

I'll call your attention to post 14 where I asked questions of others, which they attempted to answer later on, only to then be drawn back to your "mountain of a molehill" in post 16 - in a vain attempt to disjoint any other conversation. Which, frankly, you've done one heck of a job.

There is no protest - only answers to others questions, so please spare me and our other players with that total b.s.

You're leading the entire town into tunnel vision, totally ignoring other players agreement with me reagrding timeframe, and continuing to beat this dead horse to death.

Voted for me yet? What's stopping you? I'm the only player you've even questioned. I find it enormously laughable that you have any intention whatsoever in voting for anyone OTHER than me. Frankly, if you did, you'd be doing so with no information whatsoever because you haven't even attempted investigating elsewhere, much less given the discussion any breathing room to do so.

For attempting to force the town into tunnel vision
For beating a dead horse.
For talking in circles.
For making accusations based on simply ignoring the fact someone won't hand you the canned answer you expect.
For your "yet" comment, as if your vote could be legitamately placed elsewhere.
For arguing FOR a quick lynch - which everyone agrees is anti-town.
And for ignoring the agreement of other players contrary to your arguement.

Vote: Ectomancer

Voting me out of frustration now? You just dig yourself deeper don't you?

For dismissing a valid scumtell as "beating a dead horse", for avoiding a direct answer and accusing the questioner of talking in circles, for direct lies (See "You didn't include my answer" when the answer was part of the quote, and "You argued for a quicklynch", a lie fostered first by Boggzie and picked up by Korts, and NOW brought out once again as if it were truth by Boggzie. Repeating a lie does not make it a truth):

vote Boggzie

Oh yes Boggzie, all your "Everyone agrees is anti-town" and "ignoring the agreement of other players contrary to your agreeement" is pure tripe. HH has already stated that a quicklynch by scum would be desirable (provided you knew it was scum doing it), thereby making your "Everyone agrees is anti-town" statement invalid.
I also ignore the agreement of other players in general and make up my own mind. 2 of you other 6 players are scum. You would do well to remember that, except in your case, 1 of the other 6 players is scum...

at least you were as anti-climatic as expected and laid a vote on me, lol

Always eager to entertain. It's not always what you do Boggzie, but how you do it. As concerned as you are about your image, you sure are a shady character.

Cyfyana, we haven't heard from you since you checked in. What do you think about all of this? Anything you don't understand?

[MeMe]

Page 4

Like HackerHuck, I'd like to hear some more from Cyfyana.

I'm trying to observe and learn from this as it is my first game, as I'm sure it is for others here as well, so I haven't jumped into the arguments, but I am reading them and trying to follow the logic on both sides.

Vote Count

Boggzie

(2):

HackerHuck, Ectomancer

Korts

(1):

Monkey

Ectomancer

(1):

Boggzie

not voting

(3):

cyfyana, Disa, Korts

Four'll do it.

Unvote: Korts

I think that Boggzie is being too defensive .. I think that Ectomancer is only focusing on one player. Both have a good argument, but I tend to think that too much defense tends to hide one's status of being scum. If I had to choose between the two players at this exact point in time, I would choose Boggzie.

Maybe some other players could enlighten us something that no one else is seeing, Cyfyana? Disa?

I ask Disa to comment on something due to the fact that she's not really added anything to discussion, and seems a bit lurky to me.

I ask Cyfyana to post something, since s/he has only made one post and asked what nk means.

I can't say that I've been the most active here (A lot happening for me these next couple weeks), but I'm trying to throw some ideas out there.

Ectomancer, Boggzie, and Korts have added plenty enough to the discussion that there has got to be something more to add.

Also, for the record. I DO NOT support quick lynches and recall stating that I do either, I do however support a second vote in a newbie game to start discussion. So boggzie, please stop referring that situation to being support for a quick lynch.

Also, for the record. I DO NOT support quick lynches and recall stating that I do either, I do however support a second vote in a newbie game to start discussion. So boggzie, please stop referring that situation to being support for a quick lynch.

You never referred to it as a quick lynch, and I only referred to it as such after Ecto did.

You saying you didn't support it (along with Hacker) is what I've been recalling, and Ecto conveniently ignoring.

As far as defensive - if I don't answer people's questions I'm scummy. If I do answer their inquiries, it's defensive, and scummy. Please get this out of the way now - defensiveness is NOT scummy. It comes up in nearly every newbie game. You have to answer people's questions, it's part of the game.

You saying you didn't support it (along with Hacker) is what I've been recalling, and Ecto conveniently ignoring.

Yeah, I think Ecto didn't really ignore what HH said, he actually agreed with him. I won't go back and quote, cos I'm lazy, but whatever, go back and read page 1, it's there.

As far as defensive - if I don't answer people's questions I'm scummy. If I do answer their inquiries, it's defensive, and scummy.

Well, as far as I can tell from the games I have read through, everything can be a scumtell. As you said, it's about the timeframe.

About Disa, it's kinda suspicious that she only drops in for a sentence every two pages, even if she can't regularly post, if she has time to read through four pages, she could make the effort of a couple more comments on any news. I don't know, maybe she's lurking. Anyway, that could be a scumtell, as well.

FoS: Disa

And cyfyana could have a say in things as well.

Boggzie, where you're logic is falling apart is here:

I stated that we don't want to see a lynch before page four (I'd like to see a few more pages now, because I don't feel we've heard enough from everyone yet.)

That becomes a warning that I will be (and everyone else should be) highly suspicious of anyone who drops the hammer before that so-called deadline. Take it to be a warning if you will.

You come in and basically unvote me because:

unvote

...while it would be terribly bad play, scum could drop two quick votes and we'd be screwed, so, Hacker - you get a reprieve. Until I find you scummy.

:: evil eye ::

Your logic makes no sense here. First, you say that it would be terribly bad play for the two scum to vote me out. Then you unvote me because "we'd be screwed" if I get lynched. Where Ecto and I are concerned is that you feel losing me yet identifying the two scum would put us in a bad position.

Where I'm a little nervous, is that you make the assumption - with a soft backpedal at the end - that I'm not scum. There's only one reason I can think of why you would be certain I'm not scum.

Korts - I called you out for being opportunistic because of the vote you placed on Ecto. It appeared that you felt the tide was turning against Ecto in that argument and you jumped onto his wagon pretty hard.

cyfyana has requested replacement -- Battousai takes the role, effective immediately.

I did not intend to come off as a lurker and I apologize for that. Again, this is my first game ever, so I am a bit hesitant to take the dive into the discussion. I know that makes for poor play though and I have to get my feet wet eventually ^^;;

Boggzie has been quite aggressive in both offense and defense. He's questioned almost every vote, unvote, or lack of vote. His vote has shifted many times now as others have attacked or questioned his logic. This makes it hard to tell if he is voting purely on what he has gleamed from discussion with the others or if it is just a knee jerk reaction whenever someone pushes him too far.

Ectomancer has been very vocal in trying to understand Boggzie's position. It seems that he has tried to do so more from a logical angle than emotional.

HackerHuck has been somewhat quiet, but when he does post, he's straight to the point and rather clear in his statements.

I find it upsetting that Korts has suspicions of me. I've tried to at least show that I am here and following the discussions compared to others who have displayed more silent behaviour. As he said though, anything can be a scumtell if chosen to be perceived as such. Meanwhile, his votes have been a bit emotional based it seems.

Monkey held on to his initially random vote for a long time before retracting it. Is there any particular reason you stayed with your random vote on Korts for so long? You didn't have much to say about him in your last post other than unvoting him and saying that he's discussed a lot.

Cyfyana, as others have noted, has lurked this whole time without saying much of anything. Most likely (I hope) they are like myself and just shy about jumping into their first game. Hopefully Battousai's step in will offer us more insight.

HH, I didn't vote for Ecto on the basis of their argument, but rather my own deductions. I did write my reasons down before I voted. But I am aware that it wasn't a very valid reason, or whatever. Anyway, I'm waiting for any scumtell.

Disa, I'm a little uncertain at times, but I think that's to be expected. I don't think Boggzie's move was a pretty suspicious one, but the reaction Ecto's argument got from him was rather more so. Then I got tired with relying on others' arguments, so I did my count, and I got as far as I got, and based on HackerHuck and Ecto's previous statement that they'd happily quicklynch if they could get two scum that way, I placed my vote again. Now I unvoted mainly because I thought the game would go on without me for a day, but of course Ecto' argument was more logical and less emotional than Boggzie's, and after reading through, that convinced me of his alignment. Anyway, that's the brief history of my thoughts. And sorry if you feel insulted by the FoS, but I rather thought you could have more to say, but you choose not to.

Disa's post makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

Boggzie has been quite aggressive in both offense and defense. He's questioned almost every vote, unvote, or lack of vote. His vote has shifted many times now as others have attacked or questioned his logic. This makes it hard to tell if he is voting purely on what he has gleamed from discussion with the others or if it is just a knee jerk reaction whenever someone pushes him too far.

That's simply wrong. I have voted twice - the random, and for Ecto. I haven't been able to question

anything

as I have spent the entire game answering Ecto's questions. I also haven't been able to be on offense at all save the Ecto "evidence" and vote, because the entire game has been monopolized by Ecto's tunnel vision on me.

From your assessment of me, and the others in your post, I don't think you've read anything at all except small excerpts, and that's even more troubling than Ecto's tunnel vision, frankly.

I'm not swayed enough to change my vote, as I would hope maybe you're relying on others since you're a little new, but it is troubling when I already have enough heat on me. It would be really appreciated if people would at least read both sides of the game. You don't have to believe a single word I've said, but the whole assessment of me is simply false.

Boggzie has been quite aggressive in both offense and defense.

That's wrong, I've spent the entire game answering to Ecto. I wanted to lay back and watch how you played before I questioned you at all, but I was forced into a question of you in an attempt we didn't spend 4 to 5 pages on a page 1 unvote, to no avail.

He's questioned almost every vote, unvote, or lack of vote.

This simply never happened.

His vote has shifted many times now as others have attacked or questioned his logic.

No. There was a random, and then letting Ecto build a case against himself and a vote from me. That's it.

This makes it hard to tell if he is voting purely on what he has gleamed from discussion with the others or if it is just a knee jerk reaction whenever someone pushes him too far.

This statement is totally invalid as it relies on your previous assessment.

I reiterate: It would be really appreciated if people would at least read both sides of the game. You don't have to believe a single word I've said, but the whole assessment of me is simply false.

You are either one half of the scum, and you're terrible, or you're so new you don't know you have to read everything and not assume. Although it's going to make a town win VERY hard, I'm praying it's the latter.

Monkey held on to his initially random vote for a long time before retracting it. Is there any particular reason you stayed with your random vote on Korts for so long? You didn't have much to say about him in your last post other than unvoting him and saying that he's discussed a lot.

I never unvoted Korts to vote for somebody else and didn't take notice that I still had the random vote on until the votecount that Meme had just posted prior to me unvoting Korts.

You wont succeed in diminishing the import of my questioning of you by continuously attempting to reduce your actions to a simple unvote. You certainly said more than simply "unvote". My questions were specifically aimed at getting you to discuss the contradiction of labeling a particular move as bad for both sides. You've reacted badly and given poor answers. I've argued that, at best, your move was a null action, hence it hints at an ulterior motive. Rather than simply answer the first question and acknowledge the 2nd point, you instead are complaining about how much of the page has revolved around you. If you wanted to save the town from such a trivial action, why have you perpetuated the situation by avoidance? I realize some people are not as persistent as I am, and so perhaps this is a technique that has worked for you in other games. Perhaps your last line to Disa has worked for you as well, it is still a bad statement. (paraphrase - "Either you are scum or a horrible player") Maybe that gets other new players to back off of you? Stick to your guns Disa.

My assessment of the probability of you being town decreases after your every post Boggzie. Your mistake is that you have been trying to argue against me, when instead you should have focused on convincing me that you aren't scum.

You wont succeed in diminishing the import of my questioning of you by continuously attempting to reduce your actions to a simple unvote. You certainly said more than simply "unvote". My questions were specifically aimed at getting you to discuss the contradiction of labeling a particular move as bad for both sides. You've reacted badly and given poor answers. I've argued that, at best, your move was a null action, hence it hints at an ulterior motive. Rather than simply answer the first question and acknowledge the 2nd point, you instead are complaining about how much of the page has revolved around you. If you wanted to save the town from such a trivial action, why have you perpetuated the situation by avoidance? I realize some people are not as persistent as I am, and so perhaps this is a technique that has worked for you in other games. Perhaps your last line to Disa has worked for you as well, it is still a bad statement. (paraphrase - "Either you are scum or a horrible player") Maybe that gets other new players to back off of you? Stick to your guns Disa.

My assessment of the probability of you being town decreases after your every post Boggzie. Your mistake is that you have been trying to argue against me, when instead you should have focused on convincing me that you aren't scum.

Alright fine - here we go.

I'm not scum - I'm the Doctor. While claiming Doc rarely saves you from lynch, in this case it's now obvious you're scum. What Disa is claiming NEVER HAPPENED.

She gave her feelings on Monkey - and distorted them.

She gave a very long (in comparison) thought on me, citing things THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

Your continued pursuit of me when another player is either A) terrible scum and not even attempting to look town by citing instances THAT NEVER HAPPENED, or B) is killing our chances at a town win by simply not reading and just tossing out random thoughts - is a confirmation you're scum. A post 8 unvote somehow still stands as scummy to you when someone here is citing instances THAT NEVER HAPPENED?! lmao!

I'm your Doc - it may get me NK'd, but at this point it needs to be clear where at least one of your scum is and it's Ecto, period.

I thought this was supposed to be a learning game to help new players, not an insult the newbies game.

I'll go back to studying the discussion quietly if you only want me to speak so you can put me down while I'm trying to understand and follow what is happening and being said.

There is always a civil way to treat people, even if you are under accusations or questioning by them.

By the way, Boggzie, you forgot to count your vote on Korts, so yes, your vote has shifted a couple times (ignoring the random initial vote).

Your poor play in no way makes me scum. Example at hand: Claiming as Doc at L-2. You were relying on your role to get you out of a tight spot when you could have delayed, fought, and at least forced an L-1 on you before being willing to claim.

You are also correct that claiming Doc wont always save you. In an open setup however, we are guaranteed one. If that Doc is not you, they are wondering right now whether to counterclaim and out themselves to be NK'd tonight. If so, I would say yes, go ahead and counterclaim so we can lynch Boggzie. You will die tonight, but we still have the cop hidden, we wont be in LYLO, and will have an investigation tomorrow morning.

unvote

pending a counterclaim.

Your poor play in no way makes me scum. Example at hand: Claiming as Doc at L-2. You were relying on your role to get you out of a tight spot when you could have delayed, fought, and at least forced an L-1 on you before being willing to claim.
.

Yeah, yeah, yeah - poor play. Yeah - see: arguing with you over a post 8 unvote and a flippant comment for four pages. It's my poor play, not your tunnel vision that has been monopolizing gameplay all day. Right, whatever helps you feel better, Ecto.

By the way, Boggzie, you forgot to count your vote on Korts, so yes, your vote has shifted a couple times (ignoring the random initial vote).

My apologies, you are correct.

Alright, Doc, I'm pretty convinced you're lying. I don't know whether I'm supposed to wait for a counterclaim, is it good manners? To hell with them I say,

vote: Boggzie

Korts, unless someone counterclaims, he is likely telling the truth. A Doc may not want to out themselves by counterclaiming, but they should. Unless they do, I won't support a Boggzie lynch.

Ok, I have read the entire day. Then I read it 3 more times, trying to find a possible scum, without going into whole ecto v bogg argument, and instead focused on the other players. The reason I decided to focus on the other players, is to escape what bogg called the "tunnel vision". From what I have read, I have modified my initial ranking of the 4 who remained and the the two who seem to stick out to me as scummy are Korts and Disa.

Korts-

unvote

vote Boggzie

for being irritating in a very scummy manner.

Posting this, you try to box bogg into a corner by "attacking" him from another front, trying to keep the discussion based soley against him.

But, be as it may, it's not because your arguments were very convincing. Rather the reaction. Very sudden, very intense. Very defensive. Either he's scum, or a rather irritating townie.

Then, two minutes later, you post this to give a less scummy reason for your vote and hopefully not draw unneccessary attention from the other players. The reason I think that this is scummy is because I believe that if you meant to put this in the original post, you would have. I think that you reread your post and saw that it looked bad and posted this to cover your own butt.

Yeah, and I forgot, that patronizing tone. You know, I may be a bit on the fresh side, but folks just don't like being spoken to like they be idiots. Well. Anyway. Keep it up.

again, with the boxing in.

But if Boggzie was scum, which I currently doubt he is, he'd have stayed on Hacker's bandwagon. Then he'd have no more of a problem than not to raise any suspicion day 2.

As I said, as far as my count is correct, a quicklynch is good for the mafia, and if he was scum, he'd have stayed put.

Trying to get closer to the a townie before his role is revealed with his later lynch?

Woo, go Ecto!.....

Now the only question is, who was in favor of a quicklynch? I think it was you, Ecto.

vote Ectomancer

I see this in two ways, the first most likely. You continue to gain points by switching to bogg's side and voting his main opposition. Or you tried to correct a mistake you made (Woo, go Ecto!) by distancing yourself from your scum partner and voting against him with a reason he could discredit easily.

You saying you didn't support it (along with Hacker) is what I've been recalling, and Ecto conveniently ignoring.

Yeah, I think Ecto didn't really ignore what HH said, he actually agreed with him. I won't go back and quote, cos I'm lazy, but whatever, go back and read page 1, it's there.

If option two from previous quote was true, then here you go protecting your partner.

Alright, Doc, I'm pretty convinced you're lying. I don't know whether I'm supposed to wait for a counterclaim, is it good manners? To hell with them I say, vote: Boggzie

This is what really made me focus on you more closely. Why would you vote against the an uncountered doc? The only reason I can see is that if you were scum, you want to get him to L-1, and then have your partner or someone else give him the final vote.

Disa-

My vote was purely random with no bias against anyone personally. I didn't intend to start any trouble or a quick lynch situation.

I will unvote and take some time to re-read over the arguments and discussion so far.

Here, you try to protect yourself from targeting by trying to please your aggressor, and then sliped back into the shadows.

Like HackerHuck, I'd like to hear some more from Cyfyana.

I'm trying to observe and learn from this as it is my first game, as I'm sure it is for others here as well, so I haven't jumped into the arguments, but I am reading them and trying to follow the logic on both sides.

Before you ask for people to speak up, be an example and show the novice that the "water is cold when you first get in, but after a few posts you're used to it." You, yourself are just like Cyfyana was and only posted your random vote and a defensive post.

I thought this was supposed to be a learning game to help new players, not an insult the newbies game.

I'll go back to studying the discussion quietly if you only want me to speak so you can put me down while I'm trying to understand and follow what is happening and being said.

There is always a civil way to treat people, even if you are under accusations or questioning by them.

Here, I deduce that you are trying to find a way to go back into lurking while trying to get pity from the ICs and their favor.

Out of the two, Korts is way more scummy to me.

SFOS: Korts
FOS: Disa

*Note: I personally do not like lurkers that only post useless information, and I like to quote. Sorry for this post to be so long, but I had to catch up.

EBWOP

I just noticed this while reading through ...

You're doubtful that Boggzie is scum b/c he didn't leave a his vote on hacker's wagon. Scum do like to play tricks sometimes and one of those tricks is to look like scum town. Your reasoning doesn't make me doubt him as scum at all.

I'll comment more when I have time later, possibly tomorrow.

I should have never taken my vote off from Korts.

Vote: Korts

You seemed pretty postitive throughout the game that Boggzie was innocent, now he claims doc, and instead you want to vote for him. There's only one logical answer for this IMO, and if it involves you counterclaiming the doc claim I wouldn't know where to go from their. Plus labeling someone innocent early on can be a scumtell as the only people who know who's innocent are scum.

Let's slow down a little here. I'm not liking the looks of Korts right now either, but we need to make sure that our replacement gets a chance to check in and provide us with some content before the day is done. Even if we hit scum today, we'll be in a bad position if Battousai is also scum. We also want to make sure that there is ample opportunity for a counterclaim of Boggzie's role.

Let's play it a little cool and make sure of our vote counts before placing a vote.

On a side note, I really want to reiterate what Ectomancer said. There is a right time and a wrong time to claim. The good rule of thumb is to claim at lynch-1 in minis and smaller. There is much less concern about fake claims with the open setup, so Boggzie should be believed barring a counter. Think of the power role claim as the emergency brake on the bandwagon. It should come to a screeching halt at just the last minute.

[MeMe]

Page 5

Yeah, whatever, then.

unvote

But I just don't think it's a coincidence he claimed doc. Jump on my bandwagon, if you want to, there's no explaining I'll do as of now. I'm too tired. I would vote for myself too, if it weren't for the fact that I am myself. anyway.

Vote Count

Boggzie

(1):

HackerHuck

Ectomancer

(1):

Boggzie

Korts

(1):

Monkey

not voting

(4):

Battousai, Disa, Ectomancer, Korts

Four = lynch

I'd like to see a Disa response to Battousai.

@Battousai - The Kort/Ecto scum pair does have an interesting appeal to it if you consider a newbie Kort making mistakes. I can certainly see the reasoning for putting it out as it occurred to you as well. However, I would caution against structuring arguments, especially early, that imply If Player X = alignment Y, then lynch player Z. You didn't cross that line, so overall that was a good post. For players that have crossed that line in the past, it has been a +scum tell for me.

Let's slow down a little here.

He's only got one vote against him and an fos .. I don't think that we're rushing it.

I'm not liking the looks of Korts right now either, but we need to make sure that our replacement gets a chance to check in and provide us with some content before the day is done.

He has checked in.

Even if we hit scum today, we'll be in a bad position if Battousai is also scum. We also want to make sure that there is ample opportunity for a counterclaim of Boggzie's role.

OK

Let's play it a little cool and make sure of our vote counts before placing a vote.

I did that ... check

My vote was purely random with no bias against anyone personally. I didn't intend to start any trouble or a quick lynch situation.

I will unvote and take some time to re-read over the arguments and discussion so far.

Here, you try to protect yourself from targeting by trying to please your aggressor, and then sliped back into the shadows.

I was asked why I placed my random vote as I did and I answered truthfully that it was random. I removed my vote and since then have been trying to follow the discussions and arguments before placing another vote. I'd like to be well informed so as to try to avoid lynching town as much as possible.

Is this wrong? Or are we supposed to place votes frequently to trip up scum into revealing themselves? I am honestly trying to learn this game.

Like HackerHuck, I'd like to hear some more from Cyfyana.

I'm trying to observe and learn from this as it is my first game, as I'm sure it is for others here as well, so I haven't jumped into the arguments, but I am reading them and trying to follow the logic on both sides.

Before you ask for people to speak up, be an example and show the novice that the "water is cold when you first get in, but after a few posts you're used to it." You, yourself are just like Cyfyana was and only posted your random vote and a defensive post.

You are right. It wasn't right of me to ask of Cyfyana what I was equally guilty of. I will try harder to be a part of the investigation.

I thought this was supposed to be a learning game to help new players, not an insult the newbies game.

I'll go back to studying the discussion quietly if you only want me to speak so you can put me down while I'm trying to understand and follow what is happening and being said.

There is always a civil way to treat people, even if you are under accusations or questioning by them.

Here, I deduce that you are trying to find a way to go back into lurking while trying to get pity from the ICs and their favor.

Well I'd rather not feel like I'm being put down for being a new player and trying to learn this game. I'm not asking for pity. I'm asking to be treated with a bit more understanding and less venom if I make mistakes. Like I said above, I will try harder to be part of the investigation and lurk less.

I personally do not like lurkers that only post useless information

If this was directed at me, I apologize for my posts. I was asked my thoughts of things so far so I posted what I had tried to understand or surmise so far. I can see though how overall that didn't really offer any depth to the discussion. Again, I'll try harder.

Fine, whatever,

unvote

and do jump on my bandwagon. I'm too tired to argue as of now. Anyway, I sure would vote for me if I weren't me.

Oops, sorry, thought we were at the bottom of page four.

Anyway, do whatever you like.

Disa sure makes long posts that are irrelevant to the game. Ur n00b, okay. It is a fact that you didn't post a lot. But no more of that, please. We noted it, leave it now, hopefully you'll be writing many more posts to come.

Yeah, I'm ready to argue now. So what if I listened to Ecto and Boggzie's argument, made a few comments, and let myself be swayed by my own irritation at being called newbie? I did my count, however valid it may be, and I seemed to remember that Ecto did say a quicklynch would perhaps be good for town. Well, read back if you don't know. But when anyone claims doctor, I'm pretty suspicious. I'm sure it's not standard protocol, but I never would claim doc, even if I was one. Claiming vanilla townie seems much more reasonable, cos you wouldn't get NK-ed so easily if you survived. Anyway, lynch me if you feel like it.

Ectomancer asked me to respond to what Battousai said and so I did. Is that irrelevant? If he feels suspicions towards me, I should respond to those, shouldn't I?

Korts, you've repeated a few times now recently that you don't care if you are lynched. If you are pro-town, wouldn't you want to try to discourage people from voting for you? The lack of care for yourself and potentially the town seems a bit unsettling.

I think claiming vanilla townie is a bad move for any pro-town person. If you claim vanilla townie, there is no way to prove it. If you claim cop, or doc in this case, it can be proven based on the lack of a counterclaim. If there is a counterclaim, then everyone knows who to vote out the next day. If you claim vanilla townie, there are two others and no one to counter.

Let's slow down a little here.

He's only got one vote against him and an fos .. I don't think that we're rushing it.

I'm not liking the looks of Korts right now either, but we need to make sure that our replacement gets a chance to check in and provide us with some content before the day is done.

He has checked in.

When we get a lot of votes and unvotes, I wanted to make sure that we slowed things down before someone accidently dropped the hammer. That's a good time for scum to slip in a vote during the frenzy or to make a case on a townie that accidently makes a lynching vote.

I've been having trouble getting in with the CPU errors and I missed Battousai's entry. I'd like to reiterate his point about the vanilla claim from a townie. I won't go so far as to say that a vanilla townie should never claim, but especially in a game like this - three vanilla, two power roles, it definitely improves the odds for the scum. If a vanilla doesn't get lynched after claiming, the scum now have a 50/50 chance of identifying the power roles.

I also didn't realise that my vote was still on Boggzie.

Unvote: Boggzie

Korts' vote on Boggzie makes no sense to me unless he's the real doc and his cavalier attitude about being lynched gives me a scum vibe. I realise that he's unvoted, but I think he's deserving of some pressure - yes Disa, that's often how it's done here. We pressure suspects with votes to see how people behave.

Vote: Korts

You're right, of course, Disa. But if Ecto and Battousai are satisfied now, please don't let us waste any more posts on this.

I think claiming vanilla townie is a bad move for any pro-town person. If you claim vanilla townie, there is no way to prove it. If you claim cop, or doc in this case, it can be proven based on the lack of a counterclaim. If there is a counterclaim, then everyone knows who to vote out the next day. If you claim vanilla townie, there are two others and no one to counter.

But if claiming vanilla townie is a bad move for pro-town, I'd say scum would definitely not try it, if you follow my meaning. Claiming doc is pretty suspicious to me, counterclaim or not. Anyway, about the counterclaim, anyone else can claim doc just as well. How do we know if one of the scum is just trying to frame the doc? If he's not NK-ed, it's a sure tell we made the wrong choice?

I can take pressure, HH. And anyway, I like my laissez-faire attitude.

If a vanilla doesn't get lynched after claiming, the scum now have a 50/50 chance of identifying the power roles.

True, but if a power role claims power role, the town surely loses its doc or cop the next night, compared to claiming townie.

This is an open setup Korts. Either he is the Doc, or the real Doc doesn't want to counterclaim, as at this point they would be certain the Boggzie is scum, and therefore trying to lure out a power role as he felt he was on the way to being lynched for sure.
I've already said that, if so, the real Doc should go ahead and counter-claim so that we can lynch Boggzie. Even losing the Doc tonight, we still have a Cop hidden out there with a 1 in 3 chance of investigating scum tonight. Tomorrow isn't LYLO, so the Cop can direct the lynch tomorrow, giving him a 1 in 2 chance of getting the right guy. Even if that choice is wrong, we only have 1 remaining possibility for our lnch on Day 3, and we win.

Okay, so everyone's checked in, no-one counterclaimed, does that mean that we can be pretty sure Boggzie is doc?

But if claiming vanilla townie is a bad move for pro-town, I'd say scum would definitely not try it, if you follow my meaning.

I just realized this would be a WIFOM. So claiming vanilla townie would be problematic.

@Monkey:

Plus labeling someone innocent early on can be a scumtell as the only people who know who's innocent are scum.

I'd say it'd be a pretty dumb thing to do, seeing as scum would want to lynch those who are innocent, not clear their names. I'd say your logic is either flawed, or this was a deliberate mistake.

Fos: Monkey

Anyway, I never did say Boggzie was innocent, word for word, I think. Quote me if I'm wrong, but as far as I can recall, I only ever went as far as saying I don't think he's scum.

And sorry for my long line of subsequent posts, guys, but you just don't reply between 5 AM and 11 AM.

I think claiming vanilla townie is a bad move for any pro-town person. If you claim vanilla townie, there is no way to prove it. If you claim cop, or doc in this case, it can be proven based on the lack of a counterclaim. If there is a counterclaim, then everyone knows who to vote out the next day. If you claim vanilla townie, there are two others and no one to counter.

What would you suggest that a vanilla townie who was forced to claim do?

@Monkey:

Plus labeling someone innocent early on can be a scumtell as the only people who know who's innocent are scum.

I'd say it'd be a pretty dumb thing to do, seeing as scum would want to lynch those who are innocent, not clear their names. I'd say your logic is either flawed, or this was a deliberate mistake.

Fos: Monkey

This can actually be a scum tell. Since scum are the only ones who know who the innocents are, they will sometimes slipup and treat someone as innocent without having a reason to. If someone shouts 'I told you so' after a townie is lynched, that's a red flag.

Ecto - why do you think a vanilla claim is good with an open setup?

I didn't say whether it was good or bad. I asked Battousai what he/she would have a vanilla town do if pressured to claim, as he wrote that claiming vanilla townie is a bad move for a pro-town person.

Since scum are the only ones who know who the innocents are, they will sometimes slipup and treat someone as innocent without having a reason to. If someone shouts 'I told you so' after a townie is lynched, that's a red flag.

Sounds reasonable. But how are they likely to slip up, especially on a thing like this? Doesn't really make sense, telling people you know for sure who's innocent, thereby telling them you know who's scum, who your partner is.

Korts wrote:
Woo, go Ecto!.....

Korts wrote:
Now the only question is, who was in favor of a quicklynch? I think it was you, Ecto.

vote Ectomancer

I see this in two ways, the first most likely. You continue to gain points by switching to bogg's side and voting his main opposition. Or you tried to correct a mistake you made (Woo, go Ecto!) by distancing yourself from your scum partner and voting against him with a reason he could discredit easily.

I just noticed this. I meant the "woo, go Ecto" remark as a commentary on the heated argument. Is there anything wrong about that, really?

Since scum are the only ones who know who the innocents are, they will sometimes slipup and treat someone as innocent without having a reason to. If someone shouts 'I told you so' after a townie is lynched, that's a red flag.

Sounds reasonable. But how are they likely to slip up, especially on a thing like this? Doesn't really make sense, telling people you know for sure who's innocent, thereby telling them you know who's scum, who your partner is.

As he explained, they slip up by treating someone as innocent. They don't have to actually come out and say it. It is especially telling on day 1, as a Cop could not have an investigation that could explain an attitude of trust towards another player.

Korts - You didn't say word for word that Boggzie was innocent, however you did say that you doubted him to be scum ...

I'd be more then willing to explain all of this again, but I just don't have the time.

Mod

: I'll be away until Sunday night or Monday afternoon due to my getting married tonight and going away.

See you guys soon.

[MeMe]

Page 6

Oh and

Unvote: Korts

as I won't be around.

I'll be away until Sunday night or Monday afternoon due to my getting married tonight and going away.

Congratulations, have fun.

Vote Count

Korts

(1):

HackerHuck

Ectomancer

(1):

Boggzie

not voting

(5):

Battousai, Disa, Ectomancer, Korts, Monkey

Four!

unvote

hopefully this time my post will be added before I get a cpu usage error page.

It is a bad move for a power role to claim townie because if they do, most likely they will die. A townie roleclaim is bad because it can not be counterclaimed, which is the only way a role to be proven is a lack of one if there is a chance of it.

With townies, though, that is their only option besides not claiming. To them its not a bad move, it's just not a great one. With a pro-town, then it would be a bad move considering the options.


gratz monkey!

It is a bad move for a power role to claim townie because if they do, most likely they will die.

How do you mean, die? Will they be lynched, for the untraceable claim, or will they be NK-ed? Killing a townie is a Best Worst Case Scenario, but still, it is a Worst Case Scenario. A claimed townie, in my opinion, isn't likely to be lynched, because a townie claim is the only good option for a townie, as you said, while it is a bad choice for everyone else.

About NK-ing the claimed townie, I'm thinking scum, who do know who's innocent, would figure, since, as you said, claiming townie is a good choice for townies only, that they should go first after the doc or the cop. This second point is the reason I said claiming townie would be reasonable for a doc.

I mean, they will be lynched. True, scum would probably not NK them, but the town could lynch them and the scum would not get a chance to use their power on them. We're kind of going off in a tangent on this...

Since bogg claimed doc, and no one has countered, it is safe to assume that he/she is the doc, agreed?

It is likely that Boggzie is indeed the Doc.

There are a couple good reasons why a town Power Role may claim vanilla, and they are generally dependent upon the role and situation. In this case, the Doc could have claimed vanilla. If able to argue effectively (in other words, not relying on a claim to clear them), the net result would be that the Doc would have hidden himself in plain sight of the scum and avoided being roleblocked or probably even killed as they hit other targets looking for the Cop or Doc. Should the claim and defense prove ineffective, then at L-1 you can make the real claim of Doc and wait for the lack of a counter-claim to clear you.

Well, since noone counterclaimed, let's assume for now Boggzie's doc. I have my doubts, though.

And what you're saying, Ecto, is more or less what I was trying to. Except for the part with the real claim at L-1, that never occured to me. Nice.

And what you're saying, Ecto, is more or less what I was trying to. Except for the part with the real claim at L-1, that never occured to me. Nice.

Yes, except that it did not escape me that the conversation was deftly steered away from why you voted for Boggzie after his claim of Doc in an open setup and into a basic game strategy weigh-in. I'm not satisfied with your explanation for that particular move, and still am questioning your "I have my doubts" statement. I can understand it if given from one perspective in particular. I've already stated why I believe a Doc should claim, so I'll ask you directly: Are you the Doc?

No. I'm not the Doc. I just don't think a lack of counterclaim is sure proof that Boggzie is. My reasons for voting Boggzie are clear: I think it's much more probable a scum will claim doc than the doc him/herself will.

Especially when not forced to claim immediately, at L-2.

If you are not the Doc, then you have no evidence to support your vote. It was either pure speculation on your part, or a realization that the opportunity to have the Doc lynched was slipping through your fingers.

My reasons are clear: pure speculation, if you will. I wouldn't have claimed so soon.

The thing is, if he claimed at L-1, he could have been jumped on by an unvoting scum. I think you were trying to get everyone to bandwagon on bogg from the earlier argument and combining it with your reasons of not believing him to be the actual doc. My SFOS for you Korts has been bumped up to a, what's higher than that, but isn't a vote yet? How bout Super SFOS? I don't really want to vote yet until I we can hear from those who haven't spoken.

You know, I just don't know why being suspicious of an early claim is such a superior scumtell. But what the hell.

The thing is, if he claimed at L-1, he could have been jumped on by an unvoting scum.

This is exactly why I claimed at L-2. Ecto was relentless, and monopolized the game with some of the craziest tunnel vision I've ever witnessed. I felt as things piled up, and this being a newbie game, players that were town wouldn't see the tunnel vision and agree that I was scum for unvoting at post eight and for the assertion that a quick lynch could be "stupid" for both sides in the long run.

All that said I really think Korts is trying to insinuate he's the Doc by not believing my claim. It's almost as if he's laying the groundwork for his own L-1 claim. It's troubling.

I also still have my doubts about Ecto. It's quite clear while he's backed away now, there was either a relentless pursuit of a quick lynch - or near-catastophic tunnel vision. I can say I'm inclined to believe Ecto is scum; he's achieved his goal of getting me killed - just now it won't be a lynch, it'll be a night kill. So, why not back off and play the concerned townie?

I think Ecto and Korts may be our scum.

I'm back on my original vote.

Vote: Ectomancer

All that said I really think Korts is trying to insinuate he's the Doc by not believing my claim. It's almost as if he's laying the groundwork for his own L-1 claim. It's troubling.

I did already say I'm not the Doc. If you want me to claim, I'll claim. I'm still not the Doc. Hell, just leave this doc story already, I said that lacking a counterclaim, I accept that you probably are who you claim you are. My suspicions were based more on the timing. As you rightly said a couple times, timeframe makes all the difference.

I also still have my doubts about Ecto. It's quite clear while he's backed away now, there was either a relentless pursuit of a quick lynch - or near-catastophic tunnel vision. I can say I'm inclined to believe Ecto is scum; he's achieved his goal of getting me killed - just now it won't be a lynch, it'll be a night kill. So, why not back off and play the concerned townie?

I'm not convinced by your argument. Ecto, while you're right he was obsessed with the unvote, did so in apparent concern for town. It may be, or may not, that it was an attempt at framing you, however I don't see enough proof for either.

Well, Ecto needed to unvote to get suspicion off of himself when bogg claimed. He already has him killed at night, so now he has to try and find the cop for they lynch. You still pursued him though, after thinking that you could still get him lynched. This is assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum.

Wow, we've got Korts who has pretty much pushed for a doc lynch and is now backtracking heavily. Many others have also fingered their suspicions on him, yet he's only got one vote. What's going on here?
Monkey's got a good reason for pulling his vote.

Boggzie - why Ecto over Korts?
Ecto - Where's your vote?
Battousai - Super FoS? Why are you so scared to vote?
Disa?

I agree that the timing of the claim is poor, but in an open game, it's not really a scumtell.

Wow, we've got Korts who has pretty much pushed for a doc lynch and is now backtracking heavily.

Backtracking? You asked me my reasons. I'm a newbie, so I accepted your explanations for why an early claim isn't a scumtell, and that a lack of counterclaim is proof that he is what he says. You're the IC, you know better than I do.

Well, Ecto needed to unvote to get suspicion off of himself when bogg claimed.

assuming Ecto's scum. It may just as well be that Ecto thought he should wait for a counterclaim before voting the claimed doc.

I agree that the timing of the claim is poor, but in an open game, it's not really a scumtell.

Actually, I don't quite understand why it's not. Whether or not we're in an open game.

Boggzie - why Ecto over Korts?

It's pretty clear Ecto pushed way harder than Korts. I'm fairly positive Ecto is scum, whereas Korts is scummy, but I'm not getting a concrete feel.

Ecto - Where's your vote?
Battousai - Super FoS? Why are you so scared to vote?
Disa?

I'm thinking Ecto's lacking a vote because he knows just how scummy he's looked thus far. I would almost expect him to not be a part of any lynch so he can stay above the fray tomorrow if he makes it - which clearly I'm hoping he doesn't.

As far as the others - Cops tend to be very careful in their voting. Even when they're newbies, everyone just seems extra careful when you're the Cop. So, toss one away there.

Tough call.

@Boggzie - Do you know what OMGUS means? You wont convince others to join your bandwagon with OMGUS as your reason. Try building a case. Using words like "feeling" or "thinking" don't cut it. Don't worry though, you aren't unusual in that respect. There are a few people who can't handle the pressure I apply very well. You'll get it over it.

@HackerHuck - It's right here in my pocket

IGMEOY Battausai

- I warned you already about baseless scum pairing, especially in a game where we only have 2 chances to get it right if we miss scum on the first lynch. An even bigger danger is lynching the wrong one first, clearing the 2nd based upon the first players alignment, and then losing because the 2nd really was scum.

[MeMe]

Page 7

You know, I just keep laughing my head off in this game. In hungarian, fos means that sticky kind of shit. FoSing each other, well, that's just hilarious for me... Anyway. Back to the game at hand.

I'm fairly positive Ecto is scum, whereas Korts is scummy, but I'm not getting a concrete feel.

I don't quite gather how I am scummy without being scum. And I have to agree with Ecto, I don't see how feelings should be a guideline to placing your vote. I mean, this is a forum. We're not face to face, and wording can be misleading at best.

As for why Ecto pushed harder than me... perhaps I'm just shy.

I wasn't pairing, I was just commenting on bogg's theory of you being scum and applying it to Kort's defense of you. Bogg think's you're scum, I think Korts is, therefore if you combine you are a pair. That is why I put in my post "assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum." I never said or tried to imply, that you were definately a pair.

The reason I haven't voted is because I want to know what monkey and disa has to say, disa just isn't posting and monkey is away. If it is better to vote then I will vote, but I just don't want to vote without everyone being active and contributing.

@Boggzie - Do you know what OMGUS means? You wont convince others to join your bandwagon with OMGUS as your reason. Try building a case. Using words like "feeling" or "thinking" don't cut it. Don't worry though, you aren't unusual in that respect. There are a few people who can't handle the pressure I apply very well. You'll get it over it.

You're hilarious - OMGUS?

SEE POST 142.

You don't even have a vote on me. Just mountains of posts of your confirmed tunnel vision, and diversions. You're pissed your lynch didn't go through. Stop crying and point your anger elsewhere. I handled your pressure just fine - you just never expected me to claim at L-2, which is ANOTHER reason I did.

IGMEOY Battausai - I warned you already about baseless scum pairing, especially in a game where we only have 2 chances to get it right if we miss scum on the first lynch. An even bigger danger is lynching the wrong one first, clearing the 2nd based upon the first players alignment, and then losing because the 2nd really was scum.

I'm still laughing. You really can't handle folks looking your direction can you? Batt didn't pair you, I eluded to it, Batt made an off-hand comment.

You're REALLY defensive for being innocent.

LoL.

You're hilarious - OMGUS?

SEE POST 142.

You don't even have a vote on me.

Well, Ecto, Boggzie has a point here. It wasn't an OMGUS vote. It was gut feeling, and the tunnel vision. I still wouldn't call it tunnel vision, seeing as far as I can recall the unvote was the first--if lame--scumtell. But:

I handled your pressure just fine - you just never expected me to claim at L-2, which is ANOTHER reason I did.

Now that's just BS. Don't tell me claiming at L-2 was to

confuse

Ecto. If you weren't confirmed (undisputed, at least) Doc, I'd vote your ass off.

On the other hand, yeah, Ecto's taking pressure a bit heatedly.

Vote Count

Korts

(1):

HackerHuck

Ectomancer

(1):

Boggzie

not voting

(5):

Battousai, Disa, Ectomancer, Korts, Monkey

Four's the lynching number.

I handled your pressure just fine - you just never expected me to claim at L-2, which is ANOTHER reason I did.

Now that's just BS. Don't tell me claiming at L-2 was to

confuse

Ecto. If you weren't confirmed (undisputed, at least) Doc, I'd vote your ass off.

On the other hand, yeah, Ecto's taking pressure a bit heatedly.

Did he expect it? No. And, no it wasn't specifically for Ecto, but there wasn't anyone else seeing the circles and tunnel vision until I did something unexpected and dramatic. So, think what you want - I'm getting NK'd, although I'd like to help in the meantime.

Did he expect it? No. And, no it wasn't specifically for Ecto, but there wasn't anyone else seeing the circles and tunnel vision until I did something unexpected and dramatic.

Pardon me for saying so, but this is just more BS. You're right that he didn't expect it, but your recenly revealed reasons (confusing him and uncovering his evil ways) don't really make sense to me.

So, think what you want - I'm getting NK'd, although I'd like to help in the meantime.

I see that, but still. Being a fanatical townie, which may--or of course, may not--be true for Ecto, isn't a reason for lynching him. And however it may look, I'm not protecting him, just saying, it's not really a scumtell, what you're saying, Boggzie.

Yes, I read post 142. Korts, his gut feeling comes as a direct result of being pressured, by me. His points are baseless and generated simply because he didn't like the attention directed his way, by me. His reaction to me is nothing more than "Oh My God U Suck for attacking me and making me claim".
The apparent fact that he turned up Doc has no bearing on the definite fact that he reacted very poorly to some straightforward questioning and ratcheted up the pressure himself by dodging a straight answer. The lack of a counterclaim to back up his Doc claim, making him town, does not as a direct corollary make me scum. More accurately it reflects on his lazy play in general, as exhibited by his claim at L-2. You are right in ridiculing his attempt at portraying his weak move as some mastermind strategy move.

I wasn't pairing, I was just commenting on bogg's theory of you being scum and applying it to Kort's defense of you. Bogg think's you're scum, I think Korts is, therefore if you combine you are a pair. That is why I put in my post "assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum." I never said or tried to imply, that you were definately a pair.

The reason I haven't voted is because I want to know what monkey and disa has to say, disa just isn't posting and monkey is away. If it is better to vote then I will vote, but I just don't want to vote without everyone being active and contributing.

Cmon. "I wasn't pairing" but "therefore if you combine you are a pair"?
I'm simply warning to stay away from If Then statements where lynching is involved, especially in a 7 player game where we have no leeway to test those types of ideas. I would warn you of the same regardless of whether my name was part of the pair. Heed what I say, or dont, but dont tell me that there was no cause to caution you about pairing. Let's look at the actual quote in question.

Well, Ecto needed to unvote to get suspicion off of himself when bogg claimed. He already has him killed at night, so now he has to try and find the cop for they lynch. You still pursued him though, after thinking that you could still get him lynched. This is assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum.

Here Battousai talking to Korts. The focus is entirely on myself and Korts. His assumption is 3 pronged:
1: That Boggzie is Doc - Well with no counterclaim, that isn't much of an assumption is it?
2: That Korts is scum - As suspicious as Korts looks, and with his odd attempt at lynching the Doc, there is a pretty good shot at getting Korts lynched today.
3: That Ecto is scum - Even if Korts turns up town, it would be pretty easy to argue that Ecto "misled" him with his "tunnel vision" on Boggzie to such a degree as to blind him to all rational sense and caused him to apply a vote even though Boggzie was practically confirmed town.

Now that's a pairing. Why a pair is so particularly important in this game is that is exactly all the scum need to lynch. Lynch town Day 1, kill town night 1, Lynch town Day 2, Game Over.

I certainly am going to be keeping a short leash on any activity of that kind. It's dangerous. It also puts Battousai as a strong suspect, perhaps even above Korts, whose playstyle is beginning to emerge, and gives me fewer concerns as he posts. Of course he has defended me a time or two, so perhaps I am not immune to a sycophant.

Yes, I read post 142. Korts, his gut feeling comes as a direct result of being pressured, by me. His points are baseless and generated simply because he didn't like the attention directed his way, by me. His reaction to me is nothing more than "Oh My God U Suck for attacking me and making me claim".
The apparent fact that he turned up Doc has no bearing on the definite fact that he reacted very poorly to some straightforward questioning and ratcheted up the pressure himself by dodging a straight answer. The lack of a counterclaim to back up his Doc claim, making him town, does not as a direct corollary make me scum. More accurately it reflects on his lazy play in general, as exhibited by his claim at L-2. You are right in ridiculing his attempt at portraying his weak move as some mastermind strategy move.

Yawn.

I wasn't pairing, I was just commenting on bogg's theory of you being scum and applying it to Kort's defense of you. Bogg think's you're scum, I think Korts is, therefore if you combine you are a pair. That is why I put in my post "assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum." I never said or tried to imply, that you were definately a pair.

The reason I haven't voted is because I want to know what monkey and disa has to say, disa just isn't posting and monkey is away. If it is better to vote then I will vote, but I just don't want to vote without everyone being active and contributing.

Cmon. "I wasn't pairing" but "therefore if you combine you are a pair"?
I'm simply warning to stay away from If Then statements where lynching is involved, especially in a 7 player game where we have no leeway to test those types of ideas. I would warn you of the same regardless of whether my name was part of the pair. Heed what I say, or dont, but dont tell me that there was no cause to caution you about pairing. Let's look at the actual quote in question.

Well, Ecto needed to unvote to get suspicion off of himself when bogg claimed. He already has him killed at night, so now he has to try and find the cop for they lynch. You still pursued him though, after thinking that you could still get him lynched.

This is assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum.

my emphasis

Oh - Ecto's next target.

You like to overlook things, don't you? He tossed out a hypothetical to back up his thinking. He didn't "pair" anyone. Let's not start another four page monopolization of the game where you attempt to build your mountains from molehills.

I certainly am going to be keeping a short leash on any activity of that kind. It's dangerous.

What's dangerous is we're this deep into Day 1 and we've talked about relatively nothing because you're desparate to shove your spotlight up the ass of everyone else in hopes the rest of the townies will follow. I'm going to keep a short leash on you making light of total crap and ignoring statements, as you're prone to do, as evidenced again here.

Of course he has defended me a time or two, so perhaps I am not immune to a sycophant.

Is this a distance ploy, or are you saying Korts is simply too dumb to figure things out on his own?

...oh, that's a rhetorical question, by the way.

@Korts: since even Ecto's mentioned it, you do seem to be defending him lately, as well as just assuming he's town - why?

@Ecto: You basically admit to the tunnel vision now, don't you think by doing such a successful job of outing the Doc you've put your fellow "townies" in a bad spot? You seem to be rather distracted in your personal disdain for me rather than the game. I mean - you admit my claim must be true, but there hasn't even been a passing apology to your fellow townies for surely killing one of their precious power roles. I expect no apology, but don't you think you owe the town one? It seems to me that a

real

townie - in desparately caring that his fellow townies don't turn on him - would immediately offer a gushing apology, yet, you haven't even mentioned one. Why?

"I wasn't pairing" but "therefore if you combine you are a pair"?

C'mon, Ecto. What he's trying to say is, of course, that he didn't make the logical connection, but combining the two theories the possibility of the connection is clearly outlined.

Now that's a pairing. Why a pair is so particularly important in this game is that is exactly all the scum need to lynch. Lynch town Day 1, kill town night 1, Lynch town Day 2, Game Over.

Assuming you and I are town, of course. And assuming we'll be lynched. But on the other hand, a pairing, if both are scum, is much better for town. Lynch scum Day 1, kill town night 1, Lynch scum Day 2, Game Over.

@Boggzie: I don't really have experience with the game, but as far as I can see, we shouldn't let the argument tend towards bandwagoning. I try to see the argument from both sides, and as long as there's anything implying the innocence of the player being attacked, I note it.

On Ecto's apology: how about this? He's too afraid to seem like he wants to seem more townie, either because he's townie, and doesn't want to try overly hard to show it, or because he's scum, of course. Or, he doesn't give a damn.

On Ecto's apology: how about this? He's too afraid to seem like he wants to seem more townie, either because he's townie, and doesn't want to try overly hard to show it, or because he's scum, of course. Or, he doesn't give a damn.

Why would you even address this? Why speak for him? You're defending him alot lately, it's very troubling as I truly believe he's one-half of the scum. Here, you're not seeing the other side of the argument - you're answering for him. That's not stopping a bandwagon, that's blatanty defending him.

Defending him wasn't the purpose of that last part. I first wrote that I agree with you, and he should have apologized by now, but then realized that I would simply have forgot in his place, especially since he is so intent on arguing with you about your past actions, which now are of course irrelevant, since you're the Doc, as it turns out. Whew, long sentence. So, while it does seem that he is either too caught up in your argument, or trying to derail the discussion, the lack of apology by itself doesn't mean anything, was what I wanted to say in the end.

Yes, I read post 142. Korts, his gut feeling comes as a direct result of being pressured, by me. His points are baseless and generated simply because he didn't like the attention directed his way, by me. His reaction to me is nothing more than "Oh My God U Suck for attacking me and making me claim".
The apparent fact that he turned up Doc has no bearing on the definite fact that he reacted very poorly to some straightforward questioning and ratcheted up the pressure himself by dodging a straight answer. The lack of a counterclaim to back up his Doc claim, making him town, does not as a direct corollary make me scum. More accurately it reflects on his lazy play in general, as exhibited by his claim at L-2. You are right in ridiculing his attempt at portraying his weak move as some mastermind strategy move.

Yawn.

A typical response when one has no counter.

I wasn't pairing, I was just commenting on bogg's theory of you being scum and applying it to Kort's defense of you. Bogg think's you're scum, I think Korts is, therefore if you combine you are a pair. That is why I put in my post "assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum." I never said or tried to imply, that you were definately a pair.

The reason I haven't voted is because I want to know what monkey and disa has to say, disa just isn't posting and monkey is away. If it is better to vote then I will vote, but I just don't want to vote without everyone being active and contributing.

Cmon. "I wasn't pairing" but "therefore if you combine you are a pair"?
I'm simply warning to stay away from If Then statements where lynching is involved, especially in a 7 player game where we have no leeway to test those types of ideas. I would warn you of the same regardless of whether my name was part of the pair. Heed what I say, or dont, but dont tell me that there was no cause to caution you about pairing. Let's look at the actual quote in question.

Well, Ecto needed to unvote to get suspicion off of himself when bogg claimed. He already has him killed at night, so now he has to try and find the cop for they lynch. You still pursued him though, after thinking that you could still get him lynched.

This is assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum.

my emphasis

Oh - Ecto's next target.

You like to overlook things, don't you? He tossed out a hypothetical to back up his thinking. He didn't "pair" anyone. Let's not start another four page monopolization of the game where you attempt to build your mountains from molehills.

The pairing is in his own quote, presenting it as a hypothetical situation makes it no less a pairing. You are now arguing semantics simply in order to have something to argue with me about.

Rather bitter about being pressured aren't you?

Get over it.

I certainly am going to be keeping a short leash on any activity of that kind. It's dangerous.

What's dangerous is we're this deep into Day 1 and we've talked about relatively nothing because you're desparate to shove your spotlight up the ass of everyone else in hopes the rest of the townies will follow. I'm going to keep a short leash on you making light of total crap and ignoring statements, as you're prone to do, as evidenced again here.

Ah yes. my spotlight, so blinding bright that you have STILL not come out with any of the reams of other material you have to discuss. What we've talked about is that we probably wont be lynching you as no counterclaim has arisen to your claim of Doc. A claim that I was instrumental in forcing from you. What we've talked about is that despite you being a lazy player prone to prematurely claim and then pursue an OMGUS when pressured, we will have to tolerate your presence and attempt to still win in spite of it.

Of course he has defended me a time or two, so perhaps I am not immune to a sycophant.

Is this a distance ploy, or are you saying Korts is simply too dumb to figure things out on his own?

...oh, that's a rhetorical question, by the way.

Another example of you simply wanting something, anything, to argue with me over. Here you go, explained easy for you:

Sycophant - a person who tries to please someone in order to gain a personal advantage.

That means I am accusing Korts of possibly buddying up to me in order to make me feel better about him. As I have begun to feel a bit better about him from his latest posts, I am also saying that I may not be immune to the ploy.

Do get the chip off your shoulder and try to keep up. That above quote was the worst example of you deliberately mis-interpreting a statement simply in order to perpetuate your grudge against me. It makes anything you say that actually has any value reduced so far that it makes it useless to us.

@Korts: since even Ecto's mentioned it, you do seem to be defending him lately, as well as just assuming he's town - why?

An example of how someone can project the assumption that someone is innocent without actually coming out and saying it. A point in favor of Korts being scum.

@Ecto: You basically admit to the tunnel vision now, don't you think by doing such a successful job of outing the Doc you've put your fellow "townies" in a bad spot? You seem to be rather distracted in your personal disdain for me rather than the game. I mean - you admit my claim must be true, but there hasn't even been a passing apology to your fellow townies for surely killing one of their precious power roles. I expect no apology, but don't you think you owe the town one? It seems to me that a real townie - in desparately caring that his fellow townies don't turn on him - would immediately offer a gushing apology, yet, you haven't even mentioned one. Why?

Ecto has not and will not apologize for any of his actions this game. Boggzie drew the lightning down upon himself. He lazily claimed rather than try to defend himself. His roleclaim as Doc and lack of counterclaim does not make the pressure applied to generate that claim any less valid. It is our lot in life to shoulder on in spite of him and see if we can pull off a win.
No, Ecto also does not admit to tunnel vision. I know you arent a n00b, so it is my guess that this is a strategy of yours. Put off answering for as long as possible, then attack the person questioning you for how long it took to get an answer. It is a strategy that will not work with me.

By your own words Boggzie, you are likely dead tonight. This is your only chance to contribute, if so. It is you that have tunnel vision here. If you want to win, clear your head and tell us about all this material I have kept you from covering.

Defending him wasn't the purpose of that last part. I first wrote that I agree with you, and he should have apologized by now, but then realized that I would simply have forgot in his place, especially since he is so intent on arguing with you about your past actions, which now are of course irrelevant, since you're the Doc, as it turns out. Whew, long sentence. So, while it does seem that he is either too caught up in your argument, or trying to derail the discussion, the lack of apology by itself doesn't mean anything, was what I wanted to say in the end.

\

Are you confused? It is Boggzie who continues to bring up activity surrounding his claim in order to have me lynched for it. The argument isn't over his past actions, it is over what he says my past actions mean. He intends for you all to believe that because he is the Doc and I pressured him into claiming, I must be scum. I, of course, will not allow that accusation to stand without a reply. Nor will I apologize for the result of his poor play.

Yes, I read post 142. Korts, his gut feeling comes as a direct result of being pressured, by me. His points are baseless and generated simply because he didn't like the attention directed his way, by me. His reaction to me is nothing more than "Oh My God U Suck for attacking me and making me claim".
The apparent fact that he turned up Doc has no bearing on the definite fact that he reacted very poorly to some straightforward questioning and ratcheted up the pressure himself by dodging a straight answer. The lack of a counterclaim to back up his Doc claim, making him town, does not as a direct corollary make me scum. More accurately it reflects on his lazy play in general, as exhibited by his claim at L-2. You are right in ridiculing his attempt at portraying his weak move as some mastermind strategy move.

Yawn.

A typical response when one has no counter.

I wasn't pairing, I was just commenting on bogg's theory of you being scum and applying it to Kort's defense of you. Bogg think's you're scum, I think Korts is, therefore if you combine you are a pair. That is why I put in my post "assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum." I never said or tried to imply, that you were definately a pair.

The reason I haven't voted is because I want to know what monkey and disa has to say, disa just isn't posting and monkey is away. If it is better to vote then I will vote, but I just don't want to vote without everyone being active and contributing.

Cmon. "I wasn't pairing" but "therefore if you combine you are a pair"?
I'm simply warning to stay away from If Then statements where lynching is involved, especially in a 7 player game where we have no leeway to test those types of ideas. I would warn you of the same regardless of whether my name was part of the pair. Heed what I say, or dont, but dont tell me that there was no cause to caution you about pairing. Let's look at the actual quote in question.

Well, Ecto needed to unvote to get suspicion off of himself when bogg claimed. He already has him killed at night, so now he has to try and find the cop for they lynch. You still pursued him though, after thinking that you could still get him lynched.

This is assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum.

my emphasis

Oh - Ecto's next target.

You like to overlook things, don't you? He tossed out a hypothetical to back up his thinking. He didn't "pair" anyone. Let's not start another four page monopolization of the game where you attempt to build your mountains from molehills.

The pairing is in his own quote, presenting it as a hypothetical situation makes it no less a pairing. You are now arguing semantics simply in order to have something to argue with me about.

Rather bitter about being pressured aren't you?

Get over it.

I certainly am going to be keeping a short leash on any activity of that kind. It's dangerous.

What's dangerous is we're this deep into Day 1 and we've talked about relatively nothing because you're desparate to shove your spotlight up the ass of everyone else in hopes the rest of the townies will follow. I'm going to keep a short leash on you making light of total crap and ignoring statements, as you're prone to do, as evidenced again here.

Ah yes. my spotlight, so blinding bright that you have STILL not come out with any of the reams of other material you have to discuss. What we've talked about is that we probably wont be lynching you as no counterclaim has arisen to your claim of Doc. A claim that I was instrumental in forcing from you. What we've talked about is that despite you being a lazy player prone to prematurely claim and then pursue an OMGUS when pressured, we will have to tolerate your presence and attempt to still win in spite of it.

Of course he has defended me a time or two, so perhaps I am not immune to a sycophant.

Is this a distance ploy, or are you saying Korts is simply too dumb to figure things out on his own?

...oh, that's a rhetorical question, by the way.

Another example of you simply wanting something, anything, to argue with me over. Here you go, explained easy for you:

Sycophant - a person who tries to please someone in order to gain a personal advantage.

That means I am accusing Korts of possibly buddying up to me in order to make me feel better about him. As I have begun to feel a bit better about him from his latest posts, I am also saying that I may not be immune to the ploy.

Do get the chip off your shoulder and try to keep up. That above quote was the worst example of you deliberately mis-interpreting a statement simply in order to perpetuate your grudge against me. It makes anything you say that actually has any value reduced so far that it makes it useless to us.

@Korts: since even Ecto's mentioned it, you do seem to be defending him lately, as well as just assuming he's town - why?

An example of how someone can project the assumption that someone is innocent without actually coming out and saying it. A point in favor of Korts being scum.

@Ecto: You basically admit to the tunnel vision now, don't you think by doing such a successful job of outing the Doc you've put your fellow "townies" in a bad spot? You seem to be rather distracted in your personal disdain for me rather than the game. I mean - you admit my claim must be true, but there hasn't even been a passing apology to your fellow townies for surely killing one of their precious power roles. I expect no apology, but don't you think you owe the town one? It seems to me that a real townie - in desparately caring that his fellow townies don't turn on him - would immediately offer a gushing apology, yet, you haven't even mentioned one. Why?

Ecto has not and will not apologize for any of his actions this game. Boggzie drew the lightning down upon himself. He lazily claimed rather than try to defend himself. His roleclaim as Doc and lack of counterclaim does not make the pressure applied to generate that claim any less valid. It is our lot in life to shoulder on in spite of him and see if we can pull off a win.
No, Ecto also does not admit to tunnel vision. I know you arent a n00b, so it is my guess that this is a strategy of yours. Put off answering for as long as possible, then attack the person questioning you for how long it took to get an answer. It is a strategy that will not work with me.

By your own words Boggzie, you are likely dead tonight. This is your only chance to contribute, if so. It is you that have tunnel vision here. If you want to win, clear your head and tell us about all this material I have kept you from covering.

You so cute when you try to be condecending.

For the record - the reference to sychophant; can also mean as self-serving parasite, in which I was asking if you referred to Korts as being too dumb to come up with own material thus using yours.

It is not I who cares about being pressured in an online game, you have continued to reference it in your every post, and then expecting me not to retort. Hoping, praying, and grasping at straws because your only offense was to get one townie lynched on day one. Now, you're pissed and upset that my 'lazy play" did find you the Doc so it's an easy nightkill for you, but has left your ass in the wind when it became clear you weren't going to pressure someone into a corner and get the townies to side with your crap. Now, you look guilty.

I answered your pressuring in nearly every post I made in response to your badgering horseshit. You chose not to accept it, and continued on your way to somehow corner me - when I received no help from my fellow townies, I decided to claim early enough to allow them time to look elsewhere.

As far as "reams of other evidence", there's only one other person for me to figure out, or get info on and that's your partner. I was attempting to do that, but you just had to weigh in and TRY to convince everyone I was the one that couldn't let your shit go. So, now if needed, we'll both be rendered impotent in the game if it means I only point out your continued omission of statements so you may twist them so as to somehow facilitate your terrible gameplay. Players like you have a tough time with folks that READ. So many players in the game don't READ what's written, and you thrive on that flaw. So, now you're having to play with someone that does read, and re-reads, and watches ploys and you're pissed.

Buck up camper - I won't be here tomorrow to further harass your limited means of gameplay, my "lazy style" will be NK'd and I won't be here, but if I have anything to do with it - you're going before me.

Now do your best to convince everyone it's personal, and there's no reason in your omission of statements, ignoring of answers to your questions so you can continue badgering, voicing FOR a quick lynch, talking in circles, and most of all - clear and proven tunnel vision. No - none of those should serve as enough evidence to string you up.

No none of those apply - it's because I want to argue with a guy on the internet. LoL!

[MeMe's note: I couldn't save the image that was originally here -- text is: "Arguing on the internet is like running in the Special Olympics. Even if you win, you're still retarded"]

Mmm yes, if I were scum I would be so pissed that I managed to find the Doc on first try....

Do you actually think about what you are going to say before you type it?

If you didn't care about being pressured, why did you claim? Rather disproves your statement by your own actions.

Think about your statement here:

I answered your pressuring in nearly every post I made in response to your badgering horseshit. You chose not to accept it, and continued on your way to somehow corner me - when I received no help from my fellow townies, I decided to claim early enough to allow them time to look elsewhere.

Clearly if you received no help from your fellow townies, they felt that my badgering was not horseshit. Here you are disproving your statement again by admitting that your claim was brought about by my pressure.

FYI, nothing you can say or do will render me impotent in this game, though I concur with your assessment that you are. Unfortunately, we are in a situation whereby we must accept that you are town, yet are forced to ignore your opinion as it is tainted by your embarrassment at your inability to convince the town that you are indeed town without claiming.

P.S. - I have serious doubts as to whether you will die tonight. You are definitely the type of townie I like to keep around when I am playing scum. It makes it easier for scum to win. Who cares if you are the Doc when the Roleblocker knows who you are? Gives the killer a guaranteed kill, a chance at nailing the cop, and keeps you around to muck things up. This is for Kort, should he live to Day 2 and still see Boggzie alive. Him being alive will not reinforce your notion that he could still be scum, so don't think about trying to take him out without a counterclaim.

Mmm yes, if I were scum I would be so pissed that I managed to find the Doc on first try....

Do you actually think about what you are going to say before you type it?

If you didn't care about being pressured, why did you claim? Rather disproves your statement by your own actions.

Think about your statement here:

I answered your pressuring in nearly every post I made in response to your badgering horseshit. You chose not to accept it, and continued on your way to somehow corner me - when I received no help from my fellow townies, I decided to claim early enough to allow them time to look elsewhere.

Clearly if you received no help from your fellow townies, they felt that my badgering was not horseshit. Here you are disproving your statement again by admitting that your claim was brought about by my pressure.

FYI, nothing you can say or do will render me impotent in this game, though I concur with your assessment that you are. Unfortunately, we are in a situation whereby we must accept that you are town, yet are forced to ignore your opinion as it is tainted by your embarrassment at your inability to convince the town that you are indeed town without claiming.

P.S. - I have serious doubts as to whether you will die tonight. You are definitely the type of townie I like to keep around when I am playing scum. It makes it easier for scum to win. Who cares if you are the Doc when the Roleblocker knows who you are? Gives the killer a guaranteed kill, a chance at nailing the cop, and keeps you around to muck things up. This is for Kort, should he live to Day 2 and still see Boggzie alive. Him being alive will not reinforce your notion that he could still be scum, so don't think about trying to take him out without a counterclaim.

You're right. You win. You're so cool, and smart too. Oh , and not to mention you don't seem confident about being here yourself tomorrow. Interesting.

Also - note to all; his comment to Korts should be heavily underlined as Mafia communicating. Please remember this exact post when dawn breaks.

Ecto - Please see my previous post prior to more of your pointless blathering.

You. Are. Inane.

Mmm yes, if I were scum I would be so pissed that I managed to find the Doc on first try....

Almost forgot, since you're really meaningless now.

Do you read before you type? I don't think so because we are again faced with more of your posting and not reading. My quote you're referring to is:

It is not I who cares about being pressured in an online game, you have continued to reference it in your every post, and then expecting me not to retort. Hoping, praying, and grasping at straws because your only offense was to get one townie lynched on day one. Now, you're pissed and upset that my 'lazy play" did find you the Doc so it's an easy nightkill for you,

but has left your ass in the wind when it became clear you weren't going to pressure someone into a corner and get the townies to side with your crap. Now, you look guilty.

Notice the bold, since you obviously skipped it the first time.

It's pretty clear why you think you're so bright - you simply ignore the facts that counter your assumptions. How cute. This is a clinical example of why we had four mindless pages of your crap.

Typical response from you. Can't adequately express your position, so you refuse to address it and continue with your labeling of "horseshit", "blathering", or "tunnel vision". We can go back through every one of your posts and find where you consistently retreat to the safety of labeling the other person comments in some negative fashion, rather than addressing the issue itself. That is exactly why I continued to pressure you. It would behoove you to work on those skills beyond this game if you want to avoid being lynched as town constantly. You wont always have a power role in an open setup to save you.

Speaking of saving you, my comments to Kort are there to save your rather dim posterior from an attack from him on Day 2 should you survive the night. Despite your general mindset being a detriment to the town, your actual presence contributes to our chances of winning. I would be interested in your assessment of exactly what Mafia communicating was supposed to be given by that statement.

...

Your first paragraph was ignored because it served no purpose but to further buttress your opinion of yourself, as it said more about you than me. You're frustrated and frankly, it makes me smile.

Speaking of saving you, my comments to Kort are there to save your rather dim posterior from an attack from him on Day 2 should you survive the night. Despite your general mindset being a detriment to the town, your actual presence contributes to our chances of winning. I would be interested in your assessment of exactly what Mafia communicating was supposed to be given by that statement.

I believe you were telling your partner if you should be lynched, to not NK me, as I could possibly cause problems and doubt for the townies.

Mmm yes, if I were scum I would be so pissed that I managed to find the Doc on first try....

Almost forgot, since you're really meaningless now.

Do you read before you type? I don't think so because we are again faced with more of your posting and not reading. My quote you're referring to is:

It is not I who cares about being pressured in an online game, you have continued to reference it in your every post, and then expecting me not to retort. Hoping, praying, and grasping at straws because your only offense was to get one townie lynched on day one. Now, you're pissed and upset that my 'lazy play" did find you the Doc so it's an easy nightkill for you,

but has left your ass in the wind when it became clear you weren't going to pressure someone into a corner and get the townies to side with your crap. Now, you look guilty.

Notice the bold, since you obviously skipped it the first time.

It's pretty clear why you think you're so bright - you simply ignore the facts that counter your assumptions. How cute. This is a clinical example of why we had four mindless pages of your crap.

I did pressure you into a corner and townies

did

side with my "crap". You also did care about pressure being on you because you claimed (despite supposedly not caring about pressure). As I stated before, whether I am guilty or not has nothing to do with your alignment. Continuously saying it does wont change a thing.

"bright", "cute", "crap"

More labels. It's weak and doesn't bolster your case in the least. I suppose your style would send some players scurrying back to their hole with no idea how to address your personal attacks. This isn't the schoolyard though. Your labels and name calling wont prevent me from continuing to point out the lack of substance to your posts.

...

Your first paragraph was ignored because it served no purpose but to further buttress your opinion of yourself, as it said more about you than me. You're frustrated and frankly, it makes me smile.

Speaking of saving you, my comments to Kort are there to save your rather dim posterior from an attack from him on Day 2 should you survive the night. Despite your general mindset being a detriment to the town, your actual presence contributes to our chances of winning. I would be interested in your assessment of exactly what Mafia communicating was supposed to be given by that statement.

I believe you were telling your partner if you should be lynched, to not NK me, as I could possibly cause problems and doubt for the townies.

You flatter yourself. If there is any frustration, it is knowing that I will have to work

in spite

of your efforts in order to win. It would indeed be a blessing if scum decided to kill you tonight instead of another town member. You are useless as a Doc to us now, except that you might at least occupy the roleblocker.

Your last sentence was at least the first sensible thing you have said. Now go read it again, and THINK about it. Yes, it is a sad truth that you would better serve scum alive than dead.

@Boggzie. Why do you keep assuming that Ecto and I are both scum? There you go with the pairing. I don't know about Ecto. And after reading the previous posts I'm seriously doubting his concern for Town.

@Ecto. Are you trying to take me down with you, if you go?

Speaking of saving you, my comments to Kort are there to save your rather dim posterior from an attack from him on Day 2 should you survive the night. Despite your general mindset being a detriment to the town, your actual presence contributes to our chances of winning. I would be interested in your assessment of exactly what Mafia communicating was supposed to be given by that statement.

This indeed looks like you're trying to set me up as your scumbuddy. I defended you, because I thought you could be innocent. Now I'm sure you're not.

vote: Ectomancer

You flatter yourself. If there is any frustration, it is knowing that I will have to work in spite of your efforts in order to win.

You know, Ecto, what this means. You're goin' down, methinks.

[MeMe]

Page 8

Vote Count

Ectomancer

(2):

Boggzie, Korts

Korts

(1):

HackerHuck

not voting

(4):

Battousai, Disa, Ectomancer, Monkey

Still four.

@Boggzie. Why do you keep assuming that Ecto and I are both scum? There you go with the pairing. I don't know about Ecto. And after reading the previous posts I'm seriously doubting his concern for Town.

@Ecto. Are you trying to take me down with you, if you go?

Speaking of saving you, my comments to Kort are there to save your rather dim posterior from an attack from him on Day 2 should you survive the night. Despite your general mindset being a detriment to the town, your actual presence contributes to our chances of winning. I would be interested in your assessment of exactly what Mafia communicating was supposed to be given by that statement.

This indeed looks like you're trying to set me up as your scumbuddy. I defended you, because I thought you could be innocent. Now I'm sure you're not.

vote: Ectomancer

Tell me Korts, why would I "set you up" as my scum buddy, when
#1 - I was in no danger of being lynched
#2 - You were already well on your way to getting yourself lynched without my intervention. Conservation of energy ALONE says I step out of the way and let you walk into the noose.
#3 - You think very little of my ability to play mafia if you believe that my method of scum chat would consist of: Hey <names his scumbuddy>, you should watch out for this, and do this tonight, ok?

Think about it. If you want to use someone's action as reason for them being scum, you might first want to reason out exactly how that would benefit that person

as

scum. Read my statements. There is a warning for the town to avoid lynching Boggzie if he lives through the night. With 2 scum alive, and Korts throwing his vote around everytime he thinks the wind has shifted direction, it wouldn't be hard to lynch Boggzie day 2, especially if scum counter-claims as Doc tomorrow. Tell me you honestly that you believe that Korts wouldn't fall for it. My comments were most

definitely

appropriate for a town member, and makes very little sense at all to have stated it if I were scum.
FYI, jumping back and forth like you are to whomever you think might lose an argument is inherently scummy. You wont need me to "set you up" to get you lynched for being scum. It is fairly obvious that you are watching 2 town members going at it, and really don't care which one gets lynched, so long as it is one of us. If, by a slim chance you are town, then you are by far the most easily manipulated townie I have ever seen, changing your vote as often as your underwear. Take the time to weigh the merit of these statements before you leap back and forth.

I'll stick to my vote, thanks. If indeed you weren't trying to communicate that Boggzie isn't to be NK-ed, rather, as you say, you were giving "a warning for the town to avoid lynching Boggzie if he lives through the night" then I would say you could've warned us beginning of Day 2. Or when you were absolutely sure you wouldn't survive Day 1.

To #1: you weren't in danger of being lynched, true. But as I said, then you could've--should've waited for beginning of Day 2, if by then Boggzie was still with us. I'm already suspected, you just wanted to raise s'more, IMO.

I can't argue with #2, but #3: I don't doubt your skills, I'm not into personal warfare, like you and Boggzie. But since you've acted the whole game as my "mentor" I would say tactics like these would be a good idea once you thought it was time to feed me to the fish.

I may have switched votes a couple times, and I agree, I can be manipulated to do many things, but this time I waited and watched, and I think I can say this vote was duly considered.

@Boggzie. Why do you keep assuming that Ecto and I are both scum? There you go with the pairing. I don't know about Ecto. And after reading the previous posts I'm seriously doubting his concern for Town.

Your recent defenses of Ecto, and then the blatant offering of a defense for him. That, coupled with my strong belief he's scum, makes me lean that way.

The game is based on assumptions, nothing's concrete, ever. I am glad you're reading through things and paying attention. You will notice in these newbie games how little people read and simply follow the ICs, it's quite common. So, while frankly I still have my worries about your recent defenses, I'm just glad that you laid a vote with confidence, whether it was for me or Ecto.

My advice would be to be very careful about offering defenses for people. It makes you look guilty even when you may be defending someone that everyone commonly feels is town. Never forget, speaking of "concrete", there's only two people that know

for sure

where everyone stands. People that speak in black & white, or demand taking sides should be waving big red flags for you.

You still have an FoS from me, but it's diminishing after rereading, and this vote.

Boggzie is not immune to sycophanting either.

To answer your question, yes I expected to be dead tonight. We have seeming confirmation for Boggzie with no counterclaim to his role. That would make me a likely investigation target tonight by a newbie Cop. Therefore, it would also make me a likely target for a NK. Either they get the Cop if I'm him, as they know Boggzie wont be protecting me (allowing them to roleblock elsewhere while still leaving Boggzie alive), or they very probably kill the Cop's investigation target, thereby removing a confirmed townie from the game and nullifying that investigation. They also stand a 50/50 chance of roleblocking the Cop should I not be him.
Tomorrow, with Boggzie still alive, Korts renews his "doubts" as to Boggzie's claim and votes him. Scum quick lynches Boggzie and game is over.

As Korts continues jumping back and forth between us however, I begin to think I may have been wrong on at least one count. If Korts is lynched today, I suspect that scum will have lost one member and wont be able to both kill and roleblock, or lead with a vote on Boggzie tomorrow. Remember that I talked about pairing, and warned of it? Korts is doing just that with Boggzie and myself, just as scum might do that were watching two townies go at it. He doesn't care which of us gets lynched, as long as it is one of us.

Congratulations on the wedding, Monkey ^_^)

Korts, do you still hold your laissez-faire stance on votes towards you or was that just tired frustration of arguing talking that day? Why would you not care if you were voted for or not? It's just that those posts keep sticking out to me like a sore thumb atop the other things that have been said.

FoS: Korts

I don't think all these insinuations of pairings is helping town at the moment. All its doing is muddling things and making it easy for scum to try and slip past. We need to eventually take out all of the scum,yes, but right now we need to focus on just one. Examining previous discussions after Day/Night 1 will hopefully lead us towards the second scum (provided we hit right today). I'm not saying we should hurry to Day 2, just that perhaps we should examine those under suspicion on a one by one basis instead of trying to read pairing into every post made.

Korts, do you still hold your laissez-faire stance on votes towards you or was that just tired frustration of arguing talking that day? Why would you not care if you were voted for or not? It's just that those posts keep sticking out to me like a sore thumb atop the other things that have been said.

If it bothers you, don't read it again and again. That'll help. I still hold that if you want to vote for me, I can't really stop you, can I?

As Korts continues jumping back and forth between us however, I begin to think I may have been wrong on at least one count. If Korts is lynched today, I suspect that scum will have lost one member and wont be able to both kill and roleblock, or lead with a vote on Boggzie tomorrow. Remember that I talked about pairing, and warned of it? Korts is doing just that with Boggzie and myself, just as scum might do that were watching two townies go at it. He doesn't care which of us gets lynched, as long as it is one of us.

As Ecto's forefinger is firmly pointing in my direction, I feel the need to clear some points. I voted once for Boggzie, with no good reason, I admit, because I don't like being patronized. Point taken, 'twas a silly move, that. I then voted Ecto based on my own deductions (see bottom of page 2 and top of page 3) which may have been wrong, may have had no basis at all, but not, I must make this point, not because I thought Boggzie had the upper hand in the "argument." When Boggzie claimed Doc, since I didn't know, being a newbie, whether we--whether I should wait for a counterclaim, I thought, hey, the real Doc should claim Doc only at the brink of a lynch. Point taken, I was wrong, it seems. But I have been waiting for a good reason since then. I think trying to pull me down with you is quite a good one.

He doesn't care which of us gets lynched, as long as it is one of us.

That's not true. I care who gets lynched, naturally it should be who I suspect is against our motives as town. You.

To answer your question, yes I expected to be dead tonight.

As to that, Ecto, I can say that you still could've told me what you wanted to by twilight.

Boggzie is not immune to sycophanting either.

Did I say that I reject that? Well, I reject that.

I reject your reality and substitute my own!!!! Hahhahahhaha!

To answer your question, yes I expected to be dead tonight.

As to that, Ecto, I can say that you still could've told me what you wanted to by twilight.

Korts, referencing your last post, you are seriously in your own reality if you believe that if I were scum I would need to send some "scum message" in order to frame you, or that I would feel the need to attempt it, thereby flagging myself as scum, at L-2, simply to bring you down as the lynch tomorrow, especially when I could have easily steered the lynch towards you today after your attempt to get Boggzie lynched post-claim.

As for twilight, twilight lasts until the mod sees a hammer. There is no guarantee that the thread wont be locked by time you get back to post. If you are town, you get your important points out to be considered at risk of stating it too early, as you never know when your last post will be.

If you are town, you get your important points out to be considered at risk of stating it too early, as you never know when your last post will be.

Totally flying in the face of my "timeframe" comments that weren't good enough for him or the ridicule of the time of my claim, but hey - it's Ecto, so who's counting?

If you are town, you get your important points out to be considered at risk of stating it too early, as you never know when your last post will be.

Totally flying in the face of my "timeframe" comments that weren't good enough for him or the ridicule of the time of my claim, but hey - it's Ecto, so who's counting?

touche'

@Ecto: why, who else's reality could I be in? Other than that, you sound reasonable.

If you are town, you get your important points out to be considered at risk of stating it too early, as you never know when your last post will be.

Totally flying in the face of my "timeframe" comments that weren't good enough for him or the ridicule of the time of my claim, but hey - it's Ecto, so who's counting?

touche'

qft

About being lynched without time to post a last warning, why now? Every third post is yours; HH and Battousai are nowhere to be seen since a while; Monkey won't be coming back for a while longer, and Disa, well, Disa posts every three pages and summarizes the game up like a true reporter, without adding much or voting. You've got plenty of time.

Because the idea of you goofing up and lynching Boggzie occured to me then. If I don't post it, then sometimes I forget it. Remember that you asked me why I didn't just state it during twilight? The answer is that you don't always check in

after

a hammer and

before

the mod sees it. Anyhow, despite Boggzie having a point, the warning is not a claim, and did not need to be held until the last minute, though I certainly needed to say it sometime before the day ended.

Battousai are nowhere to be seen since a while.

Just so you know, I was at school and practice during this whole 2-3 page "fight".

Disa is awake finally, but we do need more info from you if you could please.

Ecto, I really did not think you were very scummy, but from this whole episode I have knocked you up to second on my scum list almost at the top for this town, right under Korts and just above Disa. Bogg obviously thinks you are scum and I don't think you will ever be able to change that, but you still go after him and even insult him at times as your defense, you say paraphrasing "You are worthless, but lets hope us townies can win inspite of you being a lazy doc". You are playing extremely defensive right now and it is not helping the town at all by going after the doc.

Once Monkey gets back, and we get his input, I feel that I could vote confidently.

As long as the Doc is going after me Battousai, I will continue to defend myself, especially when he uses his poor play as reasoning to vote for me. I call it like I see it. If you are tired of me responding to his baseless accusations and OMGUS rational for his vote, perhaps you might step up and ask him to cut the vendetta, as it is equally contributing to the focus on the topic. If not, you are simply giving him a free pass due to the lack of a counterclaim to his role. Call bullshit where you see it, even if the guy spouting it is confirmed town.
You've also mischaracterized my actions as I certainly have not been "going after the Doc". In point of fact, I've done exactly the opposite and done what I can to prevent a lynch on him by the gullible.

Before you so confidently place your vote, I'd like to ask you all a question: This case on me is supposedly because I inappropriately pressured our Doc into claiming. So, where were you when this was happening? You were either voting for him, or offering support against him. Do you honestly believe that his eventual roleclaim has any relevance on his poor answers to very straightforward questions? No, it doesn't. So the case is simply that I pushed a wagon to a claim. That's a great theoretical way to get scum, except that if no one ever pushes a wagon, we get nowhere, mods impose deadlines, and lynches are done with relatively little discussion, a very bad deal for town.
Do you honestly believe that him being the Doc and mostly confirmed has any bearing on his knowledge of the game or authority to his guesses? Once again, no. His knowledge consists of his own role, and his guesses are no more educated than the next. You might at least give it the benefit of being an impartial opinion, but it is evident that he holds grudges, even to the detriment of his chances of winning. Right now, that is exactly what he is using his role for, a club to carry out his personal grudge for being pressured.

Luckily for me, it takes 4 votes to lynch today. Boggzie and 2 scum only make 3.

I'm not really buying into this Ecto wagon right now. I feel that Korts was taking advantage of the earlier debate when he sided with Boggzie, and now that Boggzie's quite firmly believed to be the doc, he's pushing hard for Boggzie's nemesis. I'm still happy with where my vote lies.

As for my "lack of involvement", there seems to be an overwhelming amount of bickering that I find to be a bit distracting. Maybe it's time to take a break from the back and forth so that we can maybe discuss some other topics. Obviously we need to hear from Monkey when he returns, but I'd also like to get a little more of a stance from Battousai and Disa. Battousai seems willing to press on Ecto, but still wants to wait on Monkey's return. I guess I can understand that stance, but I would like to see a little more wagon building or pressuring going on. I'm afraid we're just going to end back up with a furious debate between Ecto, Boggzie and Korts.

No, I'm going to sit back and listen to the quiet ones. There has been more than enough interaction with Korts and some material has been generated from Battousai as well. Whether he was quiet scum sitting back until the initial furor had subsided, gave an indication that he would be willing to lynch me (but gave no vote), and needs only wait until one of you other 3 vote to drop the hammer is a topic for later discussion.

Korts wrote:
Battousai are nowhere to be seen since a while.


Just so you know, I was at school and practice during this whole 2-3 page "fight".

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply it was lurking or anything. Everyone has a life. I just wanted to ask of Ecto why he hurried so much with his warning.

I don't have much more to say as of now.

I appreciate that Battousai gets an apology for not posting for a couple pages, but I'm criticized for it. *shrugs* Whatever. I'm trying to post more, but I guess I'm not putting enough pressure on people. Am I being too nice?

While trying to read past all the belittling comments on both sides, I'm not convinced of an Ectomancer vote currently.

Meanwhile, Korts has yet to answer the few simple questions I directed at him. He's danced around them twice now, instead opting to give some smart aleck comments and then moving on. I'm not sure how you think such replies will help you. You can try to stop people from voting for you, but you don't seem eager or interested in taking any preventative action with your responses.

Since you can't vote for yourself, as you stated interest in earlier, I'll do it for you.

Vote: Korts

Vote: Korts

I'm still content with this vote based on Korts voting earlier in the game with Boggzie and now with his voting of Ectomancer.

I just believe that Korts is trying to take advantage of what he believes to be a more scummy person then him and running with the logic behind it.

I will say that I find Ectomancer's responses in his posts to be a bit drawn out and maybe overstating the facts, but at least he is answering questions and comments thrown in his direction. The only thing that fears me in regards to Ectomancer is that he is almost to active and really keeping his neck out there which could be a sign of scum controlling the game, but isn't enough to warrant a vote.

I say that if someone besides Boggzie is the doctor, that they claim tomorrow if he hit scum today. Otherwise Boggzie is pretty much confirmed in my eyes and that isn't a gambit I'm willing to take.

I don't have anything to comment about entirely with certain players and the like as there has been a lot of conversation going on while I was gone, which I have read, but it's been more arguing points then really acting scummy.

Unvote: Korts

, want to hear some responses before he's lynched.

I wouldn't have just voted, but Disa's post wasn't there when I was typing up my stuff.

[MeMe]

Page 9

Disa, I was only saying that you haven't added much in your posts, only summarized. No pejorative meaning was purposefully applied. Your questions? As far as I read back, all your questions I answered. Do correct me if I'm wrong, and do ask again, be glad to answer. Smart aleck? How flattering. And I thought I was just being ironic.

Hey, whatever, I can only say you're wrong, and it's not true that I'm playing weathercock, to which you'll say, "oh, but you are" and I'll say oh but I'm not, and so on. Lynch me, it won't do you good. I don't give a damn if you lose, cos I'll--oh my--be dead.

Yeah, that sounded stupid, didn't it? Well fock me.

Disa, I was only saying that you haven't added much in your posts, only summarized. No pejorative meaning was purposefully applied. Your questions? As far as I read back, all your questions I answered. Do correct me if I'm wrong, and do ask again, be glad to answer. Smart aleck? How flattering. And I thought I was just being ironic.

Hey, whatever, I can only say you're wrong, and it's not true that I'm playing weathercock, to which you'll say, "oh, but you are" and I'll say oh but I'm not, and so on. Lynch me, it won't do you good. I don't give a damn if you lose, cos I'll--oh my--be dead.

Being dead has no bearing on whether you win the game or not. Even if dead, if town wins, dead town members win as well.
So you are saying you don't care whether you win or lose the game? What then is your motivation for playing?

Disa, I was only saying that you haven't added much in your posts, only summarized. No pejorative meaning was purposefully applied. Your questions? As far as I read back, all your questions I answered. Do correct me if I'm wrong, and do ask again, be glad to answer. Smart aleck? How flattering. And I thought I was just being ironic.

Hey, whatever, I can only say you're wrong, and it's not true that I'm playing weathercock, to which you'll say, "oh, but you are" and I'll say oh but I'm not, and so on. Lynch me, it won't do you good. I don't give a damn if you lose, cos I'll--oh my--be dead.

Yeah, that sounded stupid, didn't it? Well fock me.

That's your defense? You at least responded to the points of Disa, but you did not have to say the second quote or the end of the first quote.

Vote Korts

unvote

Based on my rough FoS, and the feeling Ecto's his partner, let's drop the hammer.

Vote: Korts

unvote

Based on my rough FoS, and the feeling Ecto's his partner, let's drop the hammer.

Vote: Korts

This grows old. If Ecto is scum, you should be lynching Ecto. Right now you are simply trying to get me lynched via pairing should Korts come up guilty, a likelyhood that I myself have stated. Unless you have a nice bussing conspiracy theory in your back pocket that you can cobble together, you are still stuck on your personal issues.

Noted is Battousai taking my comments to heart this time and actually placing the 3rd vote. Good old Boggzie could be depended upon to drop the hammer and cut off all discussion.
Way to go Boggzie! You are SO pro-town! Like I said, scum would be dense to lynch you tonight.

unvote

Based on my rough FoS, and the feeling Ecto's his partner, let's drop the hammer.

Vote: Korts

This grows old. If Ecto is scum, you should be lynching Ecto. Right now you are simply trying to get me lynched via pairing should Korts come up guilty, a likelyhood that I myself have stated. Unless you have a nice bussing conspiracy theory in your back pocket that you can cobble together, you are still stuck on your personal issues.

Noted is Battousai taking my comments to heart this time and actually placing the 3rd vote. Good old Boggzie could be depended upon to drop the hammer and cut off all discussion.
Way to go Boggzie! You are SO pro-town! Like I said, scum would be dense to lynch you tonight.

God, you cannot let it go can you?

This is a last ditch effort to protect himself by a guilty player where he sees his partner got lynched. The fact that you posted at all, taking another shot at me, only underlines it.

almost forgot -

Right now you are simply trying to get me lynched via pairing should Korts come up guilty...

...but I thought I was such a terrible player? That's twice you've contradicted youself while trying to climb out of the hole you've fallen into.

A terrible "lazy" player should never have been able to set you up this good, Ecto. You smart-smart-player-you.

that's dripping in sarcasm, btw

Woo, heck yeah. Although I wanted to hammer myself personally...

Can I claim now? I'm vanilla.

Can I claim now? I'm vanilla.

Thanks, the time for that would have been before the hammer, but I reckon you weren't given that opportunity. Not your fault.

If it isn't you HH, I'm guessing Battousai and Monkey.

So this is twilight? Great. I'm out. Peace.

Hey, can I join a new game, already, or do I wait until MeMe ends the day?

A word, before I go. Boggzie, don't argue with Ecto on mere personal issues. This isn't the time and the place, as far as I gathered. Ecto, you reason very well, but that is one of the things that makes you a little suspicious to me. You shouldn't argue with Boggzie, either, for that matter, on this personal level. Hacker, I don't know why I have the feeling that you were sometimes lurking. Battousai's a little suspicious as well, I'd keep an eye on him. And Disa, last but not least, needs to put something in, as well, not just watch on the sidelines. God, I feel like I'm writing my will.

Anyway, Good Game, and I'll be reading on.

Vote Count

Korts

(4):

HackerHuck, Disa, Battousai, Boggzie

Ectomancer

(1):

Korts

not voting (2):

Ectomancer, Monkey

And that does it for

Korts

who was, indeed, a

Townie

.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Night choices are due by

11 a.m. EST Friday, January 25

(about 48 hours from this post).

Everyone mourn for

Dr. Boggzie

, slain ever-so-cruelly overnight.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Five alive means three to lynch. Get to it.

Too bad. I was hoping they would want a round 2 of Ecto vs Boggzie.

If you are cop, don't claim unless you have a guilty, or are under heavy pressure.

Do not place a vote until you are absolutely certain that you have scum. A single town on town vote will allow scum to quick lynch for the win. We are now in a situation known as LYLO, whereby we

must

lynch scum today, or we lose automatically.

If it isn't you HH, I'm guessing Battousai and Monkey.

This stumped me when I read this. If what isn't me?

Ecot is very correct in this matter - no claims and no votes. Does anyone know why we don't want the cop to announce the results from last night?

Well, the cop wouldn't be much use if s/he doesn't have a guilty at this point and the cop has a 99% chance of being killed tonight if s/he reveals themself today.

This is a rough situation. So how do we start day 2? Going back over what was said and occurred on day 1?

You use not only the day 1 information, but also after reading the results of the lynch and the NK, draw conclusions from that information.

From what I have gathered, bogg is dead so I go over everyone who voted against him at the beginning and more importantly near the end. Ecto definately did not what bogg to survive the night but he said he expected him to live and for himself to be NK'd.

You use not only the day 1 information, but also after reading the results of the lynch and the NK, draw conclusions from that information.

From what I have gathered, bogg is dead so I go over everyone who voted against him at the beginning and more importantly near the end. Ecto definately did not what bogg to survive the night but he said he expected him to live and for himself to be NK'd.

Actually I

wanted

Boggzie to live through the night. He was our only confirmed innocent. Obfuscating that point appears not to have worked.

I usually start off by assuming we had at least one scum on the lynch - it's pretty rare that only townies are on a wagon that lynches another townie.

From my perspective, that means I'm looking at Disa and Battousai. I'm not forgetting about Monkey and Ectomancer, but I prefer to focus on the wagon.

Ecto - are you surprised that you survived the night?

Ecto - are you surprised that you survived the night?

Not after Korts was lynched. Even if I managed to get Boggzie out of the noose, I would hardly think they would decide to then lynch his antagonist instead.

[MeMe]

Page 10

I was honestly only hoping to put a little pressure on Korts. I wasn't expecting two others to jump atop before he could reply or I could unvote. His repeated statements about how he'd lynch himself if he could and that he didn't care if people voted for him or not bothered me. It seemed like a ridiculous thing for someone pro-town to say and then he didn't really try to defend or retract what he said when asked about it.

I made a mistake and I sincerely feel bad about it.

*Lays fresh flowers atop the two graves*

Vote Count

Nothing to report...

Three = lynch.

Disa, I was only saying that you haven't added much in your posts, only summarized. No pejorative meaning was purposefully applied. Your questions? As far as I read back, all your questions I answered. Do correct me if I'm wrong, and do ask again, be glad to answer. Smart aleck? How flattering. And I thought I was just being ironic.

Hey, whatever, I can only say you're wrong, and it's not true that I'm playing weathercock, to which you'll say, "oh, but you are" and I'll say oh but I'm not, and so on. Lynch me, it won't do you good. I don't give a damn if you lose, cos I'll--oh my--be dead.

Yeah, that sounded stupid, didn't it? Well fock me.

That's your defense? You at least responded to the points of Disa, but you did not have to say the second quote or the end of the first quote.

Vote Korts

Well, for the record Battosai is my top suspect for being the third vote yesterday. I'd go after Boggzie if he wasn't the doc and dead at this point.

vote Battousai

Let's see who joins me.

Do you have a lot of reasoning in your vote Ecto? If you are not scum then both scum people can jump on and win the game right here. I suggest you remove your vote before that happens. Since I know I'm pro town, that could happen.

Also, I was not trying to obsecure the fact that you wanted bogg to live. I just misinterpreted your quote-

I'm going to keep a short leash on you making light of total crap and ignoring statements, as you're prone to do, as evidenced again here.

Ah yes. my spotlight, so blinding bright that you have STILL not come out with any of the reams of other material you have to discuss. What we've talked about is that we probably wont be lynching you as no counterclaim has arisen to your claim of Doc. A claim that I was instrumental in forcing from you.

What we've talked about is that despite you being a lazy player prone to prematurely claim and then pursue an OMGUS when pressured, we will have to tolerate your presence and attempt to still win in spite of it.

Well, for the record Battosai is my top suspect for being the third vote yesterday. I'd go after Boggzie if he wasn't the doc and dead at this point.

Is the third vote considered to be scum position?That's bad form Ecto. I can only think of two reasons why you would place that vote and playing coy doesn't really help us.

A vote is nearly the opposite of coy.

...and the two scenarios I'm thinking are opposites as well.

Well, for the record Battosai is my top suspect for being the third vote yesterday. I'd go after Boggzie if he wasn't the doc and dead at this point.

Is the third vote considered to be scum position?

That's bad form Ecto. I can only think of two reasons why you would place that vote and playing coy doesn't really help us.

I don't know if the third vote is considered to be scum postition or not, but it has some relevance in positioning for me anyways.

Do not place a vote until you are absolutely certain that you have scum. A single town on town vote will allow scum to quick lynch for the win.

vote Battousai

Let's see who joins me.

That vote seems more than a bit rash, Ectomancer, especially after you had just said that we shouldn't vote without putting a lot of thought behind it. Please explain your reasoning.

Do not place a vote until you are absolutely certain that you have scum. A single town on town vote will allow scum to quick lynch for the win.

vote Battousai

Let's see who joins me.

That vote seems more than a bit rash, Ectomancer, especially after you had just said that we shouldn't vote without putting a lot of thought behind it. Please explain your reasoning.

The 2 quotes explain themselves.

So you are absolutely sure? I think it might help the town if you gave them your information so they can be also I don't think you can since the only way you can be sure is that you are scum and therefore anyone being lynched besides your partner is a good thing. Since Korts has been lynched, you are at the top of my suspicion list that I posted earlier.

Monkey- I would have voted sooner on Korts, but I was waiting for his response, which was a basic I don't give a damn, and was also waiting for both yours and Disa replies towards him.

I have a question for the ICs, if the cop did investigate scum last night, is it best for them to say hey I'm cop and so and so is scum, or would it be better for that person to wait and try to draw the attention towards the scum person and hopefully the townies agree and only claim if someone else might get lynched?

Obviously Ecto's implying that he's town and Battousai is scum. With all of us having checked in, he's got a good point. All signs point to at least one of these two being scum.

Now we've got Battousai acting a bit nervous about the possibility of having been investigated and drawing out a cop claim. I've yet to see scum try a gambit like Ecto's, so my first impression is that he's on to something.

My own opinion is that this is a tough call for the cop. There are definitely pros and cons to each way of thinking, but I would definitely

not

claim if I just had an innocent.

Definitely scum.

I'm just wondering the reasons the cop should not claim. I know that I wasn't investigated last night. I do think that Ecto's vote against me is because Monkey sees me as his top suspect and if he can convince monkey to vote that way him and his partner can win.

Still no one has answered my question, should the cop claim if he his investigation yielded a scum and then be killed the next night. HH, your the only IC left besides Ecto?

I know that I wasn't investigated last night.

That certain that you roleblocked the correct person?

All right Ecto. I'm convince that at least one of you is scum. Why did you think Battousai is scum before you placed your vote?

Early rolefishing here:

I think claiming vanilla townie is a bad move for any pro-town person. If you claim vanilla townie, there is no way to prove it. If you claim cop, or doc in this case, it can be proven based on the lack of a counterclaim. If there is a counterclaim, then everyone knows who to vote out the next day. If you claim vanilla townie, there are two others and no one to counter.

What would you suggest that a vanilla townie who was forced to claim do?

Instances I've mentioned already a couple times of his pairing Ecto/Kort. He certainly managed to get one of us lynched. That's all you need as scum, setup an either/or situation between two townies, or just get town itching to test one of them.

Opportunistic hop on the wagon for Korts as he smelled blood. I could just feel his impatience at having to type up a reasonable sounding cause for his vote.

His continued attempt to sniff out the cop for his scumbuddy is further evidence.

All of that is pretty good reason, but you know that I can't tell you what the ultimate reason was that allowed me to place my vote.

Battousai has seemed to be overly interested in when a town member of any position should claim their role.

All of that is pretty good reason, but you know that I can't tell you what the ultimate reason was that allowed me to place my vote.

Why do I get the impression that Ectomancer is grinning like the Cheshire Cat?

Either way, we have two people who appear to be sure that they know something of importance. Battousai is certain he wasn't investigated meanwhile Ectomancer is certain that Battousai is scum.

If a roleblocker successfully blocks someone at night, is the roleblocker informed of this? I'm guessing no, but I wanted to make sure I understand that aspect.

If a roleblocker successfully blocks someone at night, is the roleblocker informed of this? I'm guessing no, but I wanted to make sure I understand that aspect.

Same as with a doc, there is no "feedback" from the mod indicating success. Before we started using this open setup with a guaranteed doc, it was not unheard of for the scum to actually submit no nightkill to support a false doc claim.

Disa, you seem to be supporting both of Ecto's arguments. Why are you reluctant to vote?

I'm just not fully convinced by Ectomancer's argument. Like you said before, he seems to be acting coy about his vote, which just isn't sitting right with me for some reason.

And what does Monkey think?

Disa and Monkey- Do either of you believe that both Ecto and Battousai could be town?

I don't think both of them are town. There is the possibility, but with how I've been trying to graph out what's been said so far, that likelihood is very low.

The likelihood is none, I am pro town he is scum. I did not want to claim yet, but seeing how if Disa or Monkey(who already is weary of me for my L-2 vote on day one) votes against me 50/50 chance with Disa but I'd say 65/35 with Monkey, then I will be lynched and the scum will win. More likely Disa or Monkey who are not ICs may be swayed more easily by an IC than by me, might listen to Ecto. So I have to claim now before one of them votes against me before I can respond and we loose the game.

I am the Cop

. After yesterday's lynch, Ecto was at the top of my suspect list so I investigated him and he was the Mafia Roleblocker. The reason he was at the top of my list was because he had, as bogg put it, "tunnel vision" on one person for a long time, thus forcing him to claim. HH at the time, didn't say much and his only scumminess was his lack of posts, but the posts he did have were more usefull than Disa's who, at the time, was also not posting much. Monkey, I just couldn't get to much of a read either way. Ecto was the best bet to me.

The reason I didn't just come out and say it at the beginning of the game is because I thought I could convince the rest of the town he was scum without having to claim, thus leaving me another night to investigate his partner. Ecto put a stop to that by putting the spotlight on me early on, since from another perspective, I seemed scummy by putting the spotlight on Korts yesterday to get out of Ecto's "tunnel vision".

Vote: Ecto

[MeMe]

Page 11

Nice.

Battousai, you were probably expecting a counter-claim from me. You won't get it. I'm vanilla town.

For anyone who doubts me any further, Cop investigations don't yield role names, only guilty or innocent.

Our real Cop should stay hidden unless you have an innocent from last night that isn't me. We will want your investigation tomorrow to seal the victory.

Oh, please don't hammer yet. Let's have a chat first.

unvote

to talk for a bit.

I was leaning towards Ectomancer as the scum, but given these two role claims, things appear to be muddled again.

I hope we can hear from Monkey soon.

Sorry for not being around, I worked some overtime and haven't had a chance to get to the computer.

[ quote "Battousai"]I am the Cop. After yesterday's lynch, Ecto was at the top of my suspect list so I investigated him and he was the Mafia Roleblocker.
[ /quote]



Yeah, I don't think so sir ...

Vote: Battousai

You've gotta love scum slips, it just makes the lynch so much easier.

I'll state for the record that Disa would be my second choice for scum at this point just based on the last post. I may be just that she's new, or that she's playing it off, I don't know.

What say you HackerHuck? Granted that I could still be the Mafia RoleBlocker and am bussing my scumbuddy Battousai, but I might argue how steep a risk that would be in LYLO as the opening gambit for day 2. I think I would at least try for a Monkey or HackHuck lynch first (Disa being targeted as the easily guidable).

Hmm. I'm still batting around the real Cop revealing their investigation.
Pro - If killed, their investigation becomes solid gold truth
Con - If revealed today, we lose the possibility of a 2nd investigation, though that possibility is now only 50/50
Con - the remaining scum could then counter-claim the real cop claim. (Then again, if that happened, the other 2 town would become confirmed right away.) A Battousai lynch would then lead to one of those 2 townies dying tonight. Cop's 2nd investigation is moot because he already knows who is scum and who is innocent. The question would then become one of deciding between 2 Cops in our LYLO tomorrow. Scum would control who is making that decision (my bet is Disa)

So, it doesn't matter whether the Cop has a guilty or innocent right now (except for his own head).

Now, if the Cop doesn't reveal who they are, I dont know if there are any real Pro's because tomorrow's investigation will be equally unimportant with a counterclaim then. Same scenario as above, except the Cop may not even live to see tomorrow. In that situation, instead of just 1 unsure townie, we would have 2.

See anything wrong with any of that? It seems to indicate to me that we should have the Cop claim today and force a single 50/50 choice instead of 2 50/50 choices.

In my investigation I got mafia roleblocker. You are trying to confuse the newer players by saying the cop only gets a guilty or innocent.

Smart though, claiming townie. It makes it so that you are more believeable when your scum partner claims. It would be 2 against 1, and there's a better chance that a real vanilla townie will believe them.

Look at everything I have done in the game, compared the Ecto. I did not get our doc to claim. I would ask that no vanilla townie vote for me tonight, I won't be on until tommorow and I want to be able to defend myself and help convince you Ecto is scum.

Sorry Battousai, the real cop is still out there and knows the truth. They aren't going to let you go, and neither am I, as your claim admitted to us both that you are scum.

I admire that you haven't given up though, you shouldn't until you've been hammered.

Waiting on HH to weigh in on the Cop revealing themselves and their results.

Vote Count

Ectomancer

(1):

Battousai

Battousai

(1):

Monkey

not voting

(3):

Disa, Ectomancer, HackerHuck

Lynch at three.

Yeah, I didn't need to get to this page to see through that claim. I didn't pick up on the roleblocker result at first, but the whole lack of a vote on Ecto after he was voting you is where I found things to be weak. Had he been voting for me, I would have thrown a vote on someone who was hinting at being a cop the way Ecto was. With a guilty result, I can't think of any reason why Battousai wouldn't have voted for Ecto, or at least tried to push on him a little bit. Of course the whole roleblocker thing is the icing on the cake. Cops only get alignment results unless they're called a role-cop - not the case in this open game.

Real cop better not claim today unless he got an innocent on Battousai. If real cop is foolish enough to claim, don't give up your investigation. No reason to give the scum another target or two for tonight. The cop's survival will almost guarantee us the win tomorrow.

Ecto, please enlighten me on why you chose to run your gambit. It was more than a bit risky in case you were wrong and the scum got to him before you could unvote.

Yeah, I didn't need to get to this page to see through that claim. I didn't pick up on the roleblocker result at first, but the whole lack of a vote on Ecto after he was voting you is where I found things to be weak. Had he been voting for me, I would have thrown a vote on someone who was hinting at being a cop the way Ecto was. With a guilty result, I can't think of any reason why Battousai wouldn't have voted for Ecto, or at least tried to push on him a little bit. Of course the whole roleblocker thing is the icing on the cake. Cops only get alignment results unless they're called a role-cop - not the case in this open game.

Real cop better not claim today unless he got an innocent on Battousai. If real cop is foolish enough to claim, don't give up your investigation. No reason to give the scum another target or two for tonight. The cop's survival will almost guarantee us the win tomorrow.

Ecto, please enlighten me on why you chose to run your gambit. It was more than a bit risky in case you were wrong and the scum got to him before you could unvote.

I felt that the likelihood of me being wrong was very slim. I'm also a rather active player. Without collaboration, scum couldn't be certain of getting a hammer in before my unvote and thus whoever jumped on would be exposed. I figured they would be too cautious to try. If he wasn't scum, scum would just sit back and watch us fight, not caring which one of us got lynched in the end. It's LYLO.

With our Doc dead, and being in LYLO, there was also the issue of our Cop being out there, investigation in hand, and unable to use it without incurring the inevitable counter-claim, to which we would have been stuck with our Cop exposed, and only scum knowing which it was. How to counter that? Well, I was in a good position to do it. I did my best to hint at being a Cop without saying it (I didn't want to get the actual Cop to counterclaim me).

Could you breakdown for me why exactly the Cop shouldn't claim? I'm not following how they could break it open tomorrow. Say, the Cop lives and claims and reveals both investigations. Scum needs only counterclaim and the remaining vanilla townie has a case of "Who do I believe?"
The Cop will at least know which of the other 2 is innocent.

Now, should the Cop die tonight, we wont have any investigation results, and tomorrow, we have 2 vanilla townies who have no idea which of the other 2 players left alive are town.

If the Cop claims today, we either force a counter-claim today and know for certain that scum is one of those 2 players, or nobody counterclaims and we have a confirmed townie with a good result. No matter who ends up with scum tomorrow, only 1 townie will be in the dark, not two.

Well put - at least the part about the cop claim. I can see how your theory works better - but only if you're town. Since I'm not entirely convinced of that I'm a little leery of following that plan. If the real cop investigated you - good possibility - then I wouldn't be opposed to the plan. It's also possible that the real cop has tipped his hand already, which would also be a decent reason to claim. I am a little nervous that Ecto as scum could fish out a role here.

If it were me, I still wouldn't claim.

I'm not going to bother to meta you on this, but do you usually take these kind of gambles as vanilla? I've seen the real cop try this before, but that improves the odds considerably. That's why I'm more than a little suspicious of you still.

I'm known for gambits. You could probably ask BattleMage. It's a WIFOM argument though, as he would say that there is no telling what I might try as scum. He got burned by me a couple games back and so is extra leery of me right now.
It seems as though there is a newbie game here where I was town and deliberately pushed a lynch dangerously to L-1 (knowing a lynch would not happen) to prove that someone was scum because I knew the psychology of the town would prevent them from hammering. (The lynch wouldn't happen because scum was already on the wagon and therefore couldn't push it further)

I guess it does come down to the Cop's target and result. The problem HH, is that if it isn't you, and you aren't scum, it isn't even a 50/50 proposition any longer. They know who the Cop is, so we may as well hear the investigation results from last night. Do you think we should?

P.S. - My apologies for a mistake. I realized after the fact that I shouldn't have claimed vanilla when I did. I should have left it ambiguous as to whether I was the actual Cop or not to prevent the process of elimination from giving away the real Cop. That oversight is why I feel getting a result is more important that trying to hide an increasingly revealed power role.

I guess it does come down to the Cop's target and result. The problem HH, is that if it isn't you, and you aren't scum, it isn't even a 50/50 proposition any longer. They know who the Cop is, so we may as well hear the investigation results from last night. Do you think we should?

This assumes that you aren't scum of course. There is an element of WIFOM to all of this, which is why I'm not advocating the cop to claim. I think all of the arguments are on the table, so it's up to that person to make the decision. I would like to see what Disa - and even Battousai - has to say about all of this. It's been a little too much of the IC discussion lately. What do you others think about our little debate?

Too bad. I was hoping they would want a round 2 of Ecto vs Boggzie.

If you are cop, don't claim unless you have a guilty, or are under heavy pressure.

Do not place a vote until you are absolutely certain that you have scum. A single town on town vote will allow scum to quick lynch for the win. We are now in a situation known as LYLO, whereby we

must

lynch scum today, or we lose automatically.

The fact that Ectomancer made this post and then shortly after voted battousai, I would've sworn Ecto was going to claim to be the cop. The post quoted is what I would've assumed to be a trap so to speak.

As for the cop coming out, I don't know if the benefit outweighs the risk on that one or not. I mean I'd assume at this point that the cop definitely got an innocent last night considering that he/she hasn't stated otherwise tonight. Also, Ecto stated earlier that if the cop investigated him, that maybe he/she should stay hidden still.

I think that it may be beneficial for the cop not to come out tonight, and if she/he dies well then it'll just be LYLO, and if the cop survives then there may be a rivalry of who can prove they're cop. I'd rather the cop take the risk on this one, hopefully he/she will be able to pursuade the case.

I'll say it again, I am the COP, and Ecto is scum.

The whole lack of a vote on Ecto after he was voting you is where I found things to be weak. Had he been voting for me, I would have thrown a vote on someone who was hinting at being a cop the way Ecto was. With a guilty result, I can't think of any reason why Battousai wouldn't have voted for Ecto, or at least tried to push on him a little bit.[ /quote]

The reason I did not immediately vote against Ecto was that I did not want to tell everyone I was a cop. I was pushing against him a bit, but I was being cautious not to over do it as Monkey was already suspicious of me and I did not want him to place another vote on me and let me get hammered by scum, which next on my list was Disa. Right now I think Ecto's partner might be Monkey and as Ecto said, "I'm known for gambits." He could have cooked up the gambit to make me cautious and even throw suspicion on a townie. Maybe they thought I was the cop, but wanted to eliminate Bogg so bogg wouldn't vote against Ecto, using roleblocker and goon actions on him to make sure he died. Ecto might have thought that I was going to use my action if I was cop on either him or Disa so decided to take that risk.

I would tell you my entire result that I got from MeMe, but that's against the rules. MeMe could have gave me that instead of guilty by mistake or he planned on giving me the actual role. I don't know, but I can tell you for fact that ECTO IS SCUM. If I can just get HH and Disa to believe me then day 3 comes around, here is who is scum MONKEY is also scum 70/30 or HH 60/40. Disa, I believe you are probably a plain townie now since you seem hesitant to vote against me.

Also, I just noticed I wrote a bit there. I think that might help the vanilla townies decide that I am the COP.

Battousai, they know you are scum. It's not really useful to keep after it, but like I said, you shouldn't admit it either.

For future reference, as scum, you should have claimed an innocent on someone you weren't in a tussle with. They feel better about you because you cleared them (yay!), if they get lynched, they really will turn up innocent (investigation confirmed!), and without real evidence against you from someone else, people will be reluctant to kill you unless a counterclaim comes along.

It's unfortunate that you slipped up (for you), I was unsure myself and was only going to risk the gambit for another couple replies at most. Visit the wiki or other games if you need to make a fake claim as well. Knowing the difference between the investigation of a Cop, as opposed to a RoleCop might have won you the game

@Monkey - What say you to my assessment that the chances of the Cop dying tonight are so high that it is important that we go ahead and get the night results

now

. As I stated, tomorrow, we either have a Cop alive who knows who the townie and scum are, or we have 2 townies alive with no clue. It is a safer bet to claim now and reveal last night investigation, than to wait and risk losing it. Right now we have a 50/50 shot of having nothing come tomorrow. That's not acceptable. We need to guarantee our information will be available by revealing it to all who are town today.

I'm hesitant to vote because I don't feel sure of either argument at the moment. The only thing said today so far that I agree with 100% is that we shouldn't vote until we feel confident.

Battousai, there are some inconsistencies with your last post. You say you suspect me as scum #2, yet you also want to convince me (and HH, not Monkey) to vote off Ectomancer. You also say you think I'm vanilla town. So what is it really that you think of me? You want my support, but you don't seem to have much trust towards me.

A plain cop (as in this game) is supposed to only receive a guilty/innocent response while a role cop is told the role of the person investigated? And Battousai's claim is that he was given the wrong report?

A plain cop (as in this game) is supposed to only receive a guilty/innocent response while a role cop is told the role of the person investigated? And Battousai's claim is that he was given the wrong report?

That's correct. He made a n00bie mistake in his claim. Cop's dont receive rolenames unless they are a RoleCop, and then they dont get innocent or guilty, just a rolename.
There are no RoleCop's in a newbie game, and they aren't in Normal games either as a general rule as they are considered an "advanced" role.

Battousai is still doing his best to out the Cop for his partner to kill tonight. If he would follow my reasoning, he actually would stop trying, as a Cop claim plus investigation result means tomorrow only 1 person will be in the dark. If the cop doesn't claim, and gets killed tonight, we will have both townies in the dark tomorrow.

Alright, I'm the cop ...

Ectomancer is Innocent.

OMG, I just wasted 20 minutes rereading and typing/copying to next page and I just copied over my post , now I have to start over, btw this post was after Disa's last post....

From day 1, I thought you were scummy Disa, and had you second on my list until Ecto bumped over you. We then lynched Korts (my number one suspect), so therefore I investigated Ecto. Then today, everyone else has jumped on me except you after I claimed cop. Therefore you have to be a vanilla townie seeing our doc is dead and i am the cop.

I will compile the facts as to help prove Ecto is in fact scum, again...

Ecto narrowed on the first scummy townie he saw, bogg for removing a vote on page one and saying that he thought that a quick lynch would hurt the townie right there. He continued to narrow the vision of the town as a whole onto Bogg by asking if Bogg thought that a L-2 gambit was a good idea for the town or not. When Bogg responded, he simply ignored his response and kept asking and kept up the offense.

Ecto kept up the narrowed views of the town. You claimed that Bogg was being to townie and over concerned with appearing to be town like. That alone tells me that Bogg had a power role, either scum or protown. Seeing as Ecto was scum he knew Bogg was either the cop or doc, thus motivating him further to keep attacking him until he is lynched/claimed.

Then Korts votes against you. You then admitted that you were trying to put bogg in the spot light and keep him boxed in by saying that you did not say whether the the L-2 gambit had merit or not, while going at bogg for almost the same thing.

After that Bogg voted against you for the following reasons- attempting to force the town into tunnel vision, For beating a dead horse, For talking in circles, For making accusations based on simply ignoring the fact someone won't hand you the canned answer you expect, For your "yet" comment, as if your vote could be legitamately placed elsewhere, For arguing FOR a quick lynch - which everyone agrees is anti-town, And for ignoring the agreement of other players contrary to your arguement. You voted against Bogg and saying his vote was in Frustration, ya his reasons had no bearing on it at all :rollseyes:.
Then Ecto, after you lost a prime suspect for lynch, you accused me of pairing you and Korts, while all I said was exactly, "Well, Ecto needed to unvote to get suspicion off of himself when bogg claimed. He already has him killed at night, so now he has to try and find the cop for they lynch. You still pursued him though, after thinking that you could still get him lynched. This is assuming, of course, bogg is doc and you and ecto are scum." When I told you I wasn't pairing you replied "Cmon. "I wasn't pairing" but "therefore if you combine you are a pair"?" You blantantly left of the entire hypothetical reasoning behind my post. You tried to start another mountain out of a mole hill as you did with Bogg, to hopefully lynch and/or force me to claim. This time it did not work because I had Bogg on my side and your mole hill was even smaller than the first one on Bogg so you backed off.
You then attack the claimed doc, saying paraphrasing "You are worthless, but lets hope us townies can win inspite of you being a lazy doc" in more than one post. That is what put you at #2 on my scum list.
Then, something I just found on my second re read. Korts calls you out for day talking to your scum partner when your neck was on the line. According to Korts, you basically said don't kill bogg tonight. What happened tonight? Well bogg was killed. The reason was that you actually survived the night and bogg is very suspicious of you. You have to kill him before he can convince enough people to vote you out. Another reason was that any townie could have re read the past day and saw Kort's post. What kind of predictament would you have been in if Bogg was still alive. If I was scum, I would not have killed Bogg. Me and my supposed scum partner would have set you up to let bogg vote you and we would hammer it in, game won.
On day 2, you base Monkey's suspicion of me for my third vote on Korts to imply that you were the cop and you investigated me as scum. Seeing this, I did not want to immediately stick my head out and say hey, I'm the cop and Ecto is scum. If I did that, Ecto could counterclaim and say I was only doing that to save myself, putting the town in a 50/50 predictament. That made me cautious so I did not immediately claim.

The only thing that I have done that was scummy was accusing Korts of being scum with my only vote I made and claiming cop today.

The only thing that I have done that was scummy was accusing Korts of being scum with my only vote I made and claiming cop today.

You think that it was scummy for you to claim cop today, hmm .. wonder why?

Ya, cause look at the predictament it put me in. I should have just posted my results as fast as I could, but I wasn't sure if I should remain hidden.

HH, I am the cop, don't listen Monkey, he has to be the goon. They are obviously working together. Disa, your confused, but just read the wiki. Read tells of scum, doc, and cop. You will find that Ecto reads as scum and Monkey doesn't read as cop.

Alright. We have Monkey committing to an innocent on Ecto.

HackerHuck, Disa: Would either of you like to claim Cop with a result now?

I actually like Monkey as the cop. When he chimed in to vote Battousai right away, that had cop written all over it. It's also good news that he cleared Ecto, because that will make tomorrow easier. That was my biggest fear - that Ecto had played some kind of gambit as scum1 and was hoping to buy himself his innocence by outing his pal.

Disa, would you like to claim Cop now?

[MeMe]

Page 12

While that sounds like fun, it wouldn't be honest.

Well alrighty then.

So Ectomancer is innocent, and will play decision maker tomorrow between HackerHuck and Disa. Very interesting and a tough decision.

Monkey - Now's the time to make cases. This is for posterity, and I'll be leaning heavily on what you say to make my decision tomorrow. Please give me a rundown on your thoughts about both Disa and HackHuck. After that, we can get around to the business of voting off Battousai and getting me to my Princess Bride Wine Goblet Challenge

The "Nothing's Changed" Vote Count

Ectomancer

(1):

Battousai

Battousai

(1):

Monkey

not voting

(3):

Disa, Ectomancer, HackerHuck

Three.

MeMe, how bout you just switch the rules and make it the first person to 1 vote gets lynched. Let's see, who is that? It's Ecto

It seems I made a mistake in the game. On other sites the cop always got the role of the person they investigated....

So to make it up to my partner I will help her by a little confusion....

I know who is going to be killed tonight, it is Ecto.

Outing your scum partner, even in a joking, WIFOMY manner, is a serious issue. I wouldn't do it again in any future games, or run the risk of being modkilled in that game, and many mods wont be willing to have you in their games.

how did I out them?

Battousai wrote:
how did I out them?


Pretending you don't know what I'm talking about is as believable as your claim of Cop. You know perfectly well that only 1 player in this game has their gender set to female, and that player is still alive and kicking in this game. Just because you didn't state

her

name, the use of

her

was clearly an attempt to setup a WIFOM situation around Disa. That is generally regarded as "outing" your partner, and even if she

isn't

, that kind of play is frowned upon and downright forbidden in some games. Even if not expressly forbidden, you might still find yourself modkilled for your effort.

Cmon Monkey, just need your evaluation of HackerHuck and Disa and we can move this along to night.

Sorry for the delay.

I still find Disa to be more suspicious then HackerHuck, and Battousai's post just supports that even more.

Sorry for the delay.

I still find Disa to be more suspicious then HackerHuck, and Battousai's post just supports that even more.

I was really hoping for specifics from you....

vote Battousai

Whenever someone is ready to hammer.

o start, Disa continuously mentions how she is new, which can be a scum tell IMO of newbie scum. She doesn't want anyone to think that her mistakes are scummy and to give her the benefit of the doubt.

She defends her scum friend here ...

Cyfyana, as others have noted, has lurked this whole time without saying much of anything. Most likely (I hope) they are like myself and just shy about jumping into their first game. Hopefully Battousai's step in will offer us more insight.

For the most part Disa has been flying under the radar so to speak and I think that she has been solely because she is new. Battousai's slip of stating her in his post more or less slightly confirmed his partner imo, even if he didn't mean it doesn't really change anything.

I haven't seen anything from Hacker Huck this game at all that seems scummy.

Battousai's comment was purposely set up not as a slip on his part, but to confuse others to thinking I'm his partner. Just because you messed up, Battousai, doesn't mean you should play dirty like that.

Yeah, I mentioned I'm new a few times at the beginning, but only because its the truth and I was nervous about playing the game. I only defended Cyfyana's lack of posting, assuming that they were nervous about playing like myself. I was not defending their position and I didn't defend Battousai in any way ever.

HackerHuck has been under the radar, just in a different way than what you are expecting. He's posted just enough to not be counted as a lurker. His posts appear to be thought out, but he avoids the heated discussions leaving others to take each other down, doing the work for him.

Monkey, please take some more time and look over what has occurred these two days before passing sentence on me as we near the night. The cop has saved the town once. I hope you can save us one more time before the game ends.

unvote

I want this to happen now. Let's duke it out. Battousai is scum. Monkey and I are town. It's between HackerHuck and Disa. I previously felt that it wouldn't be a fair fight, so was willing to decide based upon what I've seen thus far. The last Disa post changed my mind.
So, go for it. Make the case for why the other is scum. Because both of you actually know the truth (well Battousai does too). Monkey and I will listen and discuss it once it's done and then ask some questions.
Monkey, let's stay out of it for abit. Try to hold questions until later. Let's see what they do.

or not...

Well Ecto, I must admit that you've taken me aback a bit. I hadn't really been considering Disa before Monkey's claim and I find it a bit odd now that I'm presenting a case on her. He was basically served up on a scummy platter to me, so I've had to go back and review all her posts. As you know, it's a bit different creating a case on someone you know to be scum.

There are two ways to look at this. Since Disa didn't post that much, I focused on Battousai and how he treated Disa.

I thought this was supposed to be a learning game to help new players, not an insult the newbies game.

I'll go back to studying the discussion quietly if you only want me to speak so you can put me down while I'm trying to understand and follow what is happening and being said.

There is always a civil way to treat people, even if you are under accusations or questioning by them.

Here, I deduce that you are trying to find a way to go back into lurking while trying to get pity from the ICs and their favor.

Out of the two, Korts is way more scummy to me.

SFOS: Korts
FOS: Disa

Note that some suspicion is cast on Disa right off the bat - this is Battousai's first post - but he manages to shine the spotlight brighter on Korts - our eventual lynch.

Disa does respond to this Battousai, but without any other commentary and only at the behest of Ectomancer.

After that, Battousai is content to let his partner lurk for a while until throwing out the WIFOM card just a few posts ago.

Ecto, I know that you can pull up the list of Disa's posts, so you've probably seen that she only had about twenty posts this game. There's not much content to go on, besides her random vote on me, there's only one FoS and a single vote for Korts.

Mostly a lot of newbie tells in her posts, but she does oddly ignore the two ICs to maintain some belief in Battousai's claim and a little more doubt on Ecto - at least until Monkey's claim leaves little doubt.


Disa, this is a good chance for you to work up a case on me. Don't worry about making a mistake, because Ecto should already have enough information to go on without our arguments and there's no point in waiting until tomorrow...

Well to start off, I'm sure this isn't always the case, but logically to me it made sense that at least one IC would be scum to help the newbie scum player and make the game more balanced. Because of this, I was trying to keep a close watch on all of the ICs and what they said. Again, this may not mean much to seasoned players and be a poor mind set to use in future games outside of the newbie forum, but it helped give me a basis to start from when surrounded by 6 other players.

Like I said in my other post, HH has been lurkish but in a way different than how most use the term. He tried to offer guidance and direction to the discussions, but then would step back and let everyone else do the talking/fighting/voting.

Wow, we've got Korts who has pretty much pushed for a doc lynch and is now backtracking heavily. Many others have also fingered their suspicions on him, yet he's only got one vote. What's going on here?
Monkey's got a good reason for pulling his vote.

Boggzie - why Ecto over Korts?
Ecto - Where's your vote?
Battousai - Super FoS? Why are you so scared to vote?
Disa?

Here it seemed as though HH was becoming impatient with the first day, questioning why so many people were not voting on Korts, trying to encourage them to join his wagon that he had started just the page before.

On the last few pages of discussion, HackerHuck repeatedly mentions hesitation of the actual cop revealing themselves and offering their investigation results. This is because he knew if the real cop did, it would be as Ectomancer stated with one town in the dark versus two. He wanted to keep the odds in his favor as much as possible.

I actually like Monkey as the cop. When he chimed in to vote Battousai right away, that had cop written all over it. It's also good news that he cleared Ecto, because that will make tomorrow easier. That was my biggest fear - that Ecto had played some kind of gambit as scum1 and was hoping to buy himself his innocence by outing his pal.

With the real cop revealed, HH quickly tries to get into Monkey's good graces by complimenting him so that he'll feel less suspicious.

I'd be happy if the scum quicklynched me day one and you should be too.

Town would be happy because you are scum #2, this is true. Although, of course, you can't quick lynch yourself, so you weren't too worried.

I don't really have any questions.

Monkey?

I still think that Disa is the other scum, and really never got a read on hackerhuck.

Not even a comment or question regarding what either of us said, Monkey?

(last 6 posts from this page are missing -- if anyone has them cached, please let me know.)

[MeMe]

Vote: Battousai

End-of-Day Count:

Battousai

(3):

Monkey, Ectomancer, HackerHuck

Ectomancer

(1):

Battousai

HackerHuck

(1):

Disa

Battousai

was the

Mafia Roleblocker

!

Night choices are due by

1 p.m. EST Wednesday, February 13

[MeMe]

For those who weren't here earlier, I accidentally deleted the entire game from the database (may qualify as my biggest ever screw-up on the site -- and that's really saying something).

Only six posts (#293-299, bottom of page 12) are missing at this point; please check your cache and send me a link if you've got them so I can add them into the cut & paste history I'm working on. Sorry everyone!

[MeMe]

Your

Cop

Monkey

bit it last night.

Three alive means two of you are going to have to gang up on the other to end the day/game.

Good luck!

[Disa]

*rests fresh flowers atop Monkey's grave*

Vote: HackerHuck

[Ectomancer]

Well Disa, I hope you enjoyed your first game. It's been a pleasure.

My decision did indeed come down to something that happened earlier, and nothing afterwards altered my perception (though HackHuck's disagreement on the cop claiming was troubling). The bottom line is, HackHuck could have gotten rid of me during the Boggzie episode instead of Korts. (and would still have left Korts ready for lynch)
I wondered why he didn't then, and of course the answer is, he is most likely town.
Disa affected me the opposite. Early on I was thinking I saw an unsure townie feeling her way. But then behind that thin veil, experience seemed to show through, and I saw that the unsure townie looked more like an illusion.

If I'm wrong, I must congratulate HackHuck on his patience. Your slow pace kept me feeling you were grounded in good town principles.

vote Disa

[Disa]

I'd be happy if the scum quicklynched me day one and you should be too.

*shakes her head sadly at Ectomancer and sighs*

[Disa]

I'm not sure what you thought you were seeing in me, but this honestly is my first game. I've never played Mafia in any variant until this game. But hey, if you think I sounded like I knew what I was doing, I guess that's a compliment? It's hard to tell since town is about to lose >_<;;

[Ectomancer]

I'd be happy if the scum quicklynched me day one and you should be too.

*shakes her head sadly at Ectomancer and sighs*

I happen to agree with that statement.

[HackerHuck]

Vote: Disa

The irony in that statement is quite amusing, but it is very true.

Unfortunately, as an IC, I should have coached my partner better about claiming.

Disa, I would say that your fatal flaw in this game was a lack of participation. It was very difficult to get a good read on you, so it became more of me proving myself to be innocent than proving you scummy.

[HackerHuck]

I'm sorry if "lack of participation" came across a little harsh. When I just read my post, I cringed.

My meaning is that you didn't really post enough to solidify your towniness and scum like to try and fly under the radar. Especially when there's not a lot to work with, you can't go back and prove your towniness.

[MeMe]

End-of-

Day

Game Count:

Disa

(2):

Ectomancer, HackerHuck

HackerHuck

(1):

Disa

Disa

is lynched,

Ectomancer

is endgamed, and

HackerHuck

(

Scum

, obv) stands over their lifeless

Townie

bodies all victorious and stuff.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Night Choices

:

Night 1: HackerHuck (Mafia Goon) kills Boggzie (Doc); Battousai (RB) blocks Ectomancer (Townie); Monkey (Cop) investigates Ecto.
Night 2: Hacker kills Monkey, who failed to get an investigation in on time