NY 114: Mafia vs. Werewolves (Game Over)

[Nachomamma8]

Why Dr. Robotnik is Scum:

Part 1: The Phantom Scum That’s Right in Front Our Eyes

In a period of about 10 posts, Parama aggressively attacks SSBF, followed by Unsight, followed by Chronopie, with Parama and Unsight both throwing down votes. No one criticizes them for these votes, so it seems that the town is significantly for an SSBF lynch.

At this point, Dr. Robo makes the following post:

Cannot...resist....too...suspicious with that one post....

Vote:SSBF

He’s too lazy to refer back to the actual scummy post, and he finds SSBF such an obvious Mafioso that he fails to explain his reasoning. This is all good and well, nothing significant yet. Then, the SSBF wagon quickly rises up and comes in and another forms against the leader of the wagon, Parama. At this point, Robo unvotes the "obvious scum" in this post:

Unvote:SSBF.

Why would the masons out every one of them? Thats asking for trouble. I see the pros and cons to it, and I wouldn't have so early.

First of all, he doesn’t actually give a reason for unvoting… Second of all, the question he asks Seraphim has already been asked by the Goat. Third of all, he waffles the answer to his own question. If you don’t see that, here’s his comment broken up into the three positions he takes:

1) "That was a bad idea."

Thats asking for trouble.

2) "It was an idea that really can’t be criticized either way."

I see the pros and cons to it

3) "That was a bad idea."

I wouldn't have so early.

Part 2: Your Reasons for Voting Me are Completely Valid Which is Why You Should Vote a Mason.

Dr. Robo’s scummy actions earn him a vote from Vi, and the entire town comes tumbling after. His response?

Well well well. I gots a wagon on me. I don't blame you guys, after all, I haven't posted much, you are right about that.

I'd also like to add that he fails to answer one of my question on what post he found suspicious, which gives him a little more shades of scumminess then Midnight's Sorrow.

I hadn't read that yet, which is why it wasn't posted.

Ironically, the wagon against me looks mostly like its town driven, and for some good reasons (like myself not posting). I'm talking now, I assure you!

Right now the most interesting bit of info to me is the fact that we have three masons, and one or more of them could be werewolves. daniel94581 stands out, not because of his typical noob "super defense" but because of his rolefishing. Add that to the fact that he could be werewolf even being a mason and it is something to consider.

Sadly, Lynchmepls is also suspicious, but for him, I feel it is simply because he is new.

Timeater to my knowlege hasn't posted anything helpful either. I'll read through the thread and check.

Vote:daniel94581

[/quote]

This is a VERY untownlike response. First of all, he completely agrees with the people voting for him, which is not the townie instinct AT ALL. Especially when people are voting for you for the following reasons:

Dr. Robotnik is probscum.

From what SSBF said he's been inactive. This is just to encourage him to post more.

For now, I like the Dr. Robotnik wagon, so...

I do think that maybe there is something in the case of Dr.Robotnik.~

Of course, the fun doesn’t stop there. He then goes on to attack daniel because he could be a werewolf (umm… everyone could be a werewolf?), calls LMP suspicious (but only because he’s new), goes after a random lurker, and then calls the people on his wagon town. The last part is the worst part; I’m guessing at this point, one of his scum buddies was voting him so he wanted to give that buddy some extra town cred.

Part 3: Hypocrisy is a Cruel Mistress

Interestingly enough, Dr. Robo has two points of hypocrisy, so this Part will have be split into subsections.

Subsection A: If the President Does It, It’s Not Scummy

While I feel he certainly has been acting suspicious, the fact that the wagon formed so fast, with some just hopping on with no explanations is also worrysome.

Who remembers the beginning of the day? I do!

Cannot...resist....too...suspicious with that one post....

Vote:SSBF

Vote:daniel94581

Subsection B: Voting for reasons is bad. By the way, I think that the dude in the yellow hat is scum…

Hey I like you stating your reason* for voting for me, so I could try to enlighten you about how I feel, or reasons for my apparent scummyness.





*Disclaimer--No actual reason was stated. The sentience above was sarcastic.

Midnight's last few posts of taunting reek of scum.

FoS on Midnight SorroW

END OF ACT 1.

END OF ACT NOTE: Part 3 is without explanation. I realize this, and will complete it later. Since this is going to be one hell of a post, the play will finish when I'm in more of a mood to rant about Roboscum.

[Shrinehme]

Midnight's last few posts of taunting reek of scum.

Why does taunting = scum?

Readthrough still not yet completed. Keeping up with new posts also, though...

[askbob]

unvote nachomamma

vote Dr. Robotnik

Normally replacements only hurt the town. However re reading the bandwagons and coming up with analysis like this is great. I was voting for him previously because he hasn't post. Now that he's done analysis I'm getting a town read. Also

Scum List:

Robotnik
Socrates
Midnight Sorrow

[Unsight]

Unsight - Did you see all the talk about MS's meta? Or are you just voting him in spite of that?

No, I don't remember reading anything about that. Link me to what you're talking about. Also, I'm voting him because he's scummy as hell and seems to think because we're talking about other people that he's off the hook.

[Midnight's Sorrow]

We are not voting Nhammen Roleblockers are

not

always Scum.

Where would you put the odds of a town roleblocker in this game?

With two scum teams?? Pretty high sir.

Isn't that what, like doctors are for? Roleblockers are usually SCUMZ.

If there's a town role-blocker, then this means there are Scum PRs???

Huh? (That's not what I said, if you were asking. But I'm not the one who thinks that there's a town RB.)

I know that's not what you said. I just don't understand why you don't think there could be a Town RB...

And HI Unsight! ^^/

[Nachomamma8]

LOOK AT EVERYONE READING MY POST IT GIVES ME WARM FUZZIES INSIDE.

Unsight, please behave like you're town.

Pomegranate, could you link to a two-mafia game where there was roleblocker scum? Thanks in advance :3

[Pomegranate]

There

could

be one, I just find it highly unlikely that there

is

one.

[Pomegranate]

Pomegranate, could you link to a two-mafia game where there was roleblocker scum? Thanks in advance :3

Sure I can.

Note DeathNote, American Mafia Roleblocker, IIRC. There were two scum factions- Sicilian Mafia and American Mafia.

[foilist13]

I actually really like nacho's post.

@SerialClergyman: Please link me to such a game so that I can correct my inexperience. In the meantime I strongly believe what SSBF is attempting is unbelievably anti-town, and you dropping everything and joining up so that you get the "confirmed town" status in unbelievably scummy. Why would scum even bother killing you? They can just kill the rest of them and single out you or someone else and say "hey, why isn't he dead yet?"

1) You'll probably all be dead before you manage to lynch all the scum, unless you get 7+ people as confirmed town. Good luck.

2) Trusting people is the worst possible idea in a game like this. Once you start trusting, you stop close reading. Once that happens, any scum good enough to get themselves on this list will have an easy ride for the next few days until Lylo, or close to it.

3) And most importantly: Do you really think that SSBF is confirmed town, or is it because he came up with this? I find it incredibly convenient that he suddenly gets to be confirmed town even though he is on several people's scum lists. That applies to you as well.

4) Joining this group in the first place is a null tell. If you're scum it's protection, if you're town you might get killed.

[Midnight's Sorrow]

Foilist's posts continue to make me wonder why there is even still a vote on him...

[foilist13]

There is a scum roleblocker in most newbie games. I've SE'd enough of them to know it happens more often than not.

The reason they are usually scum roles is that they are not very useful to the town. Scum roles are usually limited to goon, roleblocker, and godfather. The godfather is not a power role in the sense that he has nigh actions, he just has a collection of immunities. The roleblocker could himself be roleblocked, but that would be an odd situation. Or the roleblocker could hit the one of three scum sending in the kill which is a shot in the dark.

They end up being a liability to the town as they can easily hit the cop or the doc, or jail keeper, or whatever else the town happens to have. I've only ever seen someone claim town roleblocker, and ended up being scum.

Can someone provide a link to a game where there was a town roleblocker?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

Yeah, Nachomamma8's post was fantastic:

Unvote, Vote: Dr. Robotnik

[Nachomamma8]

Town Roleblocker Nacho.

A more normal example.

Pom, thanks for the links. I guess I'm just a little biased; I haven't seen a game with two mafia that HASN'T had a town roleblocker...

[MichelSableheart]

SpyreX will be replacing animorpherv1.

We finally have a full game again!

Vote count and activity check coming up shortly.

[SpyreX]

What up game I'll be catching up tomorrow since it done be the sleepy times BUT real quicklike synopsis?

[Nachomamma8]

Vezo is confirmed town (monk + mason: Monks can't be mafia, Masons can't be werewolves, Vezo is both).

Nhammen is claimed town roleblocker from being wagoned day 1, claimed to RB Socrates on Night 1 and thinks he's scum from one kill.

Wagons on foilist for god-knows what, wagon on Dr. Robo thanks to an agreement between SSBF and I, wagon on nhammen because he's scum, and wagon on MS because he's "taunting newbie scum" (which doesn't make sense to me, but w/e).

Ya, that's what I can do for ya right now.

[MichelSableheart]

Twelfth vote count of day 2.

askbob (1):

nhammen

Dr. Robotnik (3):

Nachomamma8, askbob, Super Smash Bros. Fan

Dry-fit (0):
Faraday (0):
foilist13 (2):

Parama, Leafsnail

Leafsnail (1):

Timeater

Lowell (0):
LynchMePls (0):
Midnight's Sorrow (1):

Unsight

Nachomamma8 (0):
nhammen (5):

SerialClergyman, Dry-fit, Dr. Robotnik, Shrinehme, vezopiraka

Nikanor (0):
Parama (1):

foilist13

Pomegranate (0):
SerialClergyman (0):
Shrinehme (4):

Pomegranate, Socrates, Midnight's Sorrow, LynchMePls

Socrates (3):

Faraday, SpyreX, Lowell

SpyreX (0):
Super Smash Bros. Fan (0):
Timeater (0):
Unsight (0):
vezopiraka (0):

Not Voting (1):

Nikanor

With 22 players alive, it takes 12 votes to lynch someone.

---

Faraday has announced limited access.

Parama has announced V/LA from the 6th till the 9th of june.

No prods need to be issued, because everyone else posted within the last 48 hours.

[SpyreX]

Up to page 13 and me and my compadres are outed AND slappywag masons instead of fat ones?

Awesome.

While I'm still reading why isn't Goat dead? (I may fall asleep here soon but)

[SerialClergyman]

Nacho, could you expand on your thoughts behind nhammen? When you were defending the town roleblocker concept I got the feeling you were pro-nhammen but you recently suggest he's scum in your summary to Spy.

[nhammen]

Oh, wow, I think it's been 48 hours since my last post... How did this happen? Catching up... Need to procrastinate less. Will make a post in approx 2 hours. Maybe a little more...

[vezopiraka]

Why is nobody dead yet?
I can't stand wagons being made for everyone who comes up scummy. We had enough wagons let's lynch someone. I still say nhammen or socrates is the way to go.

[LimMePls]

Why would scum even bother killing you? They can just kill the rest of them and single out you or someone else and say "hey, why isn't he dead yet?"

Can we please not give the scum ideas?

In unrelated news:

Unvote
Vote: Dr. Robotnik

Nacho's case was made of win.

[SerialClergyman]

I probably owe you an apology, foilest, I didn't mean to be all arrogant about your play, it was early in the morning and i was feeling bitchy.

I just come across your objection every single game I play and I've never found it to be true, that's all. And it' rarely the players I really respect who make it.

Why would scum even bother killing you? They can just kill the rest of them and single out you or someone else and say "hey, why isn't he dead yet?"

This is like scum behaviour 101, so it's easily countered. If people start loudly saying ho, ho! who is this person left alive?? and then getting me lynched, my flip brings the town right back to them. Breaking up a town group is seriously hard as scum, you have a good chance of outing yourself even after one or more mislynches. I learned that in Emerald Mafia (in my wiki) as scum, where a protown group formed and almost won the game via PoE despite some great play on our behalf.

This is iam's dollhouse game where the last 3 lynches were essentially 'lynch anyone but Serial, farside or elvis.' Setting up that group won us the game and it meant the scum, who played really well, were totally denied a chance to win.

mith's /inv 4 is another pretty good example of just using a pro-town block of players to work through the scum's fakeclaim chain and crack it.

I've played games where all I do is townhunt early in the game and literally am happy to lynch anyone other than 5 or so people I have townreads on, and quite a few of them have been successful. If you think back to your town wins, I'm sure you'll find most of them were more successful when the town worked together and displayed some trust, NOT (counter to intuition) when the town were paranoid and watching their backs all the time. Being skeptical is good, and questioning your reads is also good but hell - this is a game where even the scum want to find scum! So chances are someone's suspicions are truly their suspicions. It's time to work with that and see where we can go.

By the way, vezo, I'm about 1,000,000% behind you.

[nhammen]

Yes, I do think he is saying that, and I do think it is wrong. Want to see why I think he is saying that?

I refuse to throw away a night kill as possible evidence because of WIFOM tendencies.

And its equally bad logic to not think Vi NK=/=Sevis scum. And no; I did not immediately leap on Sevis.

First one does look like he is saving scum killed Vi cuz sevis is scum. Second one looks perfectly reasonable. But if you look at his first post on the subject and most of his other posts, he is not saying that the incriminating evidence is the reason for the NK, but rather the read from the NK victim.

How much more immediate can it get than his first post of that day? It was even the 5th overall post of the day. Why not ask some probing questions of Sevis? Why not discuss the case from the day before? Once it's clear we're getting a Sevis replacement, why not wait to hear from Sevis replacement? If all he is going off is the case from D1, then why wasn't he with us on D1? Why wait for the NK and the WIFOM to be convinced? Both MS' play and his WORDS say that he is basing his case on the Vi NK.

No. I saw it as he is basing his read on the fact that Vi is CONFIRMED TOWN now that he is dead, so Vi's reads can be given more weight. Or maybe I'm seeing his case wrong.

Vote: Nhammen

Really? Absolutely no analysis at all? You could at least say hello, the experience you've had with the game, and why you think nhammen is scummy.

I agree with this... Agreeing with my top scum suspect. This makes me feel dirty...

In other news I stumbled across this gem while I was isoing Sevis:

Interesting finds, both nhammen and Parama. Now that I re-read foilist's posts, he does seem to be rolefishing quite a bit: previously, I took this for him just trying to make sense of the game. I still don't get the feeling that he's scum, but I'm not too sure just yet. Vezo really is contributing far less to the game than he could be, hinting at the role without any clarification only helps scum, as far as I can see.

The speed with which Chronopie jumped on the nhammen wagon does surprise me -- he seems to be hoping to put the focus away from him and thus be forgotten. This doesn't look like very pro-town play to me. I also have to agree that his attempts at rolefishing would cause more harm if they were successful (I see LMP's role and knowledge to currently be of more importance than vezo's).

FOS: Chronopie

Unvote; Vote: nhammen

Anyone up for a shrinehime wagon?

unvote, vote:shrinehime

Yes, my attacks are entirely hypocritical, and the only reason I'm not targeting myself is because I know my own alignment. Would you suggest I target nobody at all?

LMP complained I'm targeting someone who isn't all that scummy: I asked him who he finds scummier than Dr. Robotnik in the list of players I've had time to read on.

Oh my god why isn't this guy dead?

Hmmm... Considering it... Especially since only one player is joining me on the askbob wagon.

If you even bother to look at the time stamps you'd know it wasn't immediate >.< I can read pretty fast, but hell to the freaking no can I read that many pages in a *Snap* like that... It was a hour or two.

Stop saying I immediately jumped on it because of my first post being my vote on him.

THAT

is stupid. Sorry~

So you couldn't do the reread during the night like I did? You had to wait for day 2 to start to do a reread? Why is that, where you busy in the night time? If so, with what?

Ummm... you do realize that what caused him to do a reread is seeing that Vi is Town, right?

I think roleblocker is a fairly unlikely role for town to have. I also don't like the way nhammen gave his report and instantly voted SGR.

While I don't agree about roleblocker being a fairly unlikely role for town to have, I do agree that nhammen was way to aggresive with his vote on SGR. Almost like he was desperate to put the attention anywhere other than on himself.

nhammen didn't even consider for a moment that there could be other reasons for one less kill.

I agree with LMP here. Bolded is scummy of nhammen.

!@#$%^&*()
Except that I DID mention other possibilities. IN THE SAME POST THAT I VOTED HIM! I said that I didn't believe that the scum would have withheld their kill, but there was something else that I thought was likely. I later clarified that this something was the possibility of a Doc protect. I really should have specified that in the first place. I don't remember why I didn't, except that I had a specific reason for not doing so. I think maybe it was because I wanted to be able to catch a scumslip from a Mafia member that knew who the kill was made by, just in case the kill wasn't made by SGR. But the possibility of a Doc protect was fairly obvious. So I don't know why I would have thought that if SGR didn't make the Mafia kill, that only Mafia would immediately mention it.

ya i ignore u questshun cuz it suck and i alredy fond scum nhammen and askbob, with a socrates scum on the other team.

Maybe some cases would be nice?

[Super Smash Bros. Fan]

@SSBF - How does a "I think these people are town" list help the town?

I'll explain what me and SerialClergyman were attempting to do:

SerialClergyman wanted in some way or form get the claimed roles dealt with and that it was important. He suggested that we formed a town group and I agreed. So I decided to set up four groups (Townies, Claimed Roles, Null, and Scums). My idea attempted to single out the scum reads first, then the null reads, and under the last circumstances, the claimed masons. I thought the group was too small, so we decided to look for more. We thought about a few candidates. Then we started to get attacked on (For legitimate reasons) by vezopiraka and foilist13, earning me and SerialClergyman a spot in foilist13's scum list. Others replied negatively as well.

Given that we've been called out on for attempting such things, I decided to drop the whole thing and move on with the game.