Mini 653 - Family Guy Mafia - Game over

[Save The Dragons]

Yes. The reason I have been so careful about claiming Cleveland or not is because I believe LF is TRYING to ascertain whether I am Cleveland or not (despite his rigorous statements to the contrary), and as previously stated a character claim only helps the scum. Whether LF is scum or not, the real scum would definitely want me to claim, which is why I've been so careful.

I think a lot of people have come to the consensus that this is a null tell and whether or not you are Cleveland doesn't really matter.

But I'd like to point out that not only am I fallible, but I also did most of my read from 2:00 am to 5:00 am in the morning, and may not have been fully awake.

As Mafia players grow in experience, they will typically expand their knowledge of what constitutes scumtell.

If you want to follow the Wiki 100%, then you should check my join date and tell us which one of us would know more about scum tells.

A type of voting which can be a scum tell; when a player votes and then unvotes a particular player repeatedly during a Day, or switches their votes to several different players over the course of the Day, it may be because they are scum trying to find a good place to land their vote on an ProTown player without attracting too much suspicion.

On the other hand, it is hard to use this tell reliably, as some players simply move their vote around a lot, no matter what their Alignment or Role.

Oh. I guess the wiki's on my side. One down...

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.

WIFOM

2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.

Doesn't mean they always do, as with scum

Not quite. See below.

3. I think people play how they're gonna play.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do

Doesn't mean you should policy lynch players who give scum tells.

4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

WIFOM Also you underestimate the amount of slips people tend to make. Like the amount of WIFOM reasoning you're using now to protect LF

First of all, I'm not protecting LF, and if you think I am, please point out where I am so I can either be corrected or prove you wrong.

Second of all, no, this is not WIFOM. Yes, it's metagaming, but it's not WIFOM. I'm not saying that scum would do this because they're trying to look like town and be like, "why would I do this as scum?"

I'm saying it because it's bloody obvious that if someone where scum, they're not going to do the things that act like it. Notice I'm not going to say they're acting like town. Now that would be a WIFOM,

if it were contained in an argument by a scum describing how said scum is being protown.

Go give that wiki another look through.

The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.

So the lynch is randomly determined every day then, with no other contributing factors?

Selective reading? That explains why the wiki doesn't agree with you

No. You see, some scumtells don't transcend games. They're relevant to the game at hand, and they represent things that shouldn't occur in the game. Not every wishywashy player, not every awkward post, not every lurker, and not every misuse of logic makes the person scum. It's up to the players to figure out in the game which of the "scumtells" are legit and which are not. I don't think you've done that.

You, my friend, have decided that wishy-washyness is a scumtell, and have decided that every single situation is appropriate for wishy-washyness to be a scumtell. You have not decided to actually think for yourself and ask yourself if this is appropriate to our situation at hand. THIS IS WRONG. You cannot just say that something is a scum tell and expect it to be a scum tell in every single game.

So you've decided to go on a smear campaign and attack LF because you think you've caught a scumtell. That is incredibly scummy. You've decided that you're going to ignore logic and reasoning and not look at what LF's votes actually mean (I mean, you posted them, but I don't think you really, truly looked at them, nor did you seem to care after LF explained them).

I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).

No. Even though his vote doesn't count, it still holds sway with the town. Because he has everyones attention, he has to be careful where he puts his vote. With great power comes great responsibility.

At this point, I'm just actually saying that if I did:

Unvote Vote: RestFermata

Unvote Vote: Llama Fluff

Unvote Vote: Babygirl

Unvote Vote: Reborn

Then I'm doing a lot more harm than he is.

I'm also saying that the wishy washy "scumtell" that you oh so love doesn't really apply in this situation, because his vote doesn't count (allegedly), so I don't see why he's being scummy, when he could accomplish the same thing if he said:

Unpizza, Pizza: Kmd

Unpizza, Pizza: Kloud

[Save The Dragons]

elvis - you'd be right if he'd given a case and then voted for me and then I'd voted for him.

BUT he didn't. He just dismissed my argument with poor points and then voted for me without cause. That is without question scummy, surely? And furthermore I only did FoS.

You can't learn mafia from a textbook.

[Kmd4390]

All I can think of is that in a game like this, experienced scum will often lurk because so many other players are doing it so they can get away with it.

We are barely getting any information from this.

You can't just say something's a scumtell.

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.
2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.
3. I think people play how they're gonna play.
4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

Entirely WIFOM. Scum excuse scum tells by calling them too obvious and saying scum would never do such a thing.

EBWOP - my typo probably made things unclear at the end.

My answers are in bold. There doesn't seem to be a case here, just an attack on my suspicions of LF followed by a vote on me. I'm looking at you as scum partners now

FoS StD

OMGUS much?

trying to look active much?






Still catching up.
Be back later.

[Inspector Godot]

More info? Bringing up the possibility of Llama being a power role? Fishing, anyone? Perhaps he's scum speculating whether or not Llama might be a worthwhile NK after all. But wait...there's more.

I'm sure a scum would speculate who they're going to kill early in-game IN THE GAME THREAD.

The only concern I have with Llama's role at the moment is that it could be a very good way of getting the mafia to avoid night killing you. After all, if it benefits them in LYLO then why would they kill you when they could kill someone else and possibly get lucky?

What does this even mean? If Llama is town and his claim is true, this really doesn't mean anything at all! If IG thinks Llama is scum, why not just say that? And as for "it could be a very good way of getting the mafia to avoid NKing you," I don't like the sound of that at all. If IG is town, he's practically giving advice to scum. Even if he thinks it's obvious advice, why do it? First he seemed to be toying with the idea that Llama could be a power role. Now he's speculating about the best NK. Pro-town? I think not.

The best NK? I can see how you can read my post that way, but it's unintentional. And I flip flop on the idea of Llama being scum. Sometimes he posts something that makes me think he's town and then he'll post something which changes my mind.

If he's a power role I wouldn't dislike it. But if he's an ordinary vanilla townie, then it just seems like a waste. I'd rather have a townie NK'd then a power role.

Ah, the "maybe Llama is a power role" suggestion rears its ugly head once again. Methinks IG shouldn't say everything that comes to his head.

Methinks IG should. At least for today. And if you're checking under your radar, could you look for thinktank under there?

[Kmd4390]

Second of all, no, this is not WIFOM. Yes, it's metagaming, but it's not WIFOM. I'm not saying that scum would do this because they're trying to look like town and be like, "why would I do this as scum?"

But scum do things that are seen as obvious scumtells and they DO say "why would I do that as scum?"

[RestFermata]

Maybe you weren't speculating who to NK as scum IN THE GAME THREAD. But you're all but making suggestions to the scum if you're not. How is either one of those things a good idea?

[reborn537]

Yes. The reason I have been so careful about claiming Cleveland or not is because I believe LF is TRYING to ascertain whether I am Cleveland or not (despite his rigorous statements to the contrary), and as previously stated a character claim only helps the scum. Whether LF is scum or not, the real scum would definitely want me to claim, which is why I've been so careful.

I think a lot of people have come to the consensus that this is a null tell and whether or not you are Cleveland doesn't really matter.

But I'd like to point out that not only am I fallible, but I also did most of my read from 2:00 am to 5:00 am in the morning, and may not have been fully awake.

Doesn't excuse the fact that you're STILL voting for me, and STILL haven't presented a case on me.

As Mafia players grow in experience, they will typically expand their knowledge of what constitutes scumtell.

If you want to follow the Wiki 100%, then you should check my join date and tell us which one of us would know more about scum tells.

Yeah, I'm really intimidated by the fact that you have been on the forums for 4 years and still appear to have learned nothing. Also, I'm pretty sure I've played more mafia than you.

A type of voting which can be a scum tell; when a player votes and then unvotes a particular player repeatedly during a Day, or switches their votes to several different players over the course of the Day, it may be because they are scum trying to find a good place to land their vote on an ProTown player without attracting too much suspicion.

On the other hand, it is hard to use this tell reliably, as some players simply move their vote around a lot, no matter what their Alignment or Role.

Oh. I guess the wiki's on my side. One down...

Oh, right, I see what you've done. You've read my argument on LF, decided that it hinges on the "wishy-washiness" and then tried to convince everyone else that it does. Still no case on me.

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.

WIFOM

2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.

Doesn't mean they always do, as with scum

Not quite. See below.

3. I think people play how they're gonna play.

Doesn't mean it's the right thing to do

Doesn't mean you should policy lynch players who give scum tells.

Oh, I see, so now we're not lynching people who are scummy? No, I agree, maybe not always, as there could be a better candidate. In this instance, I believe LF is the best candidate for the lnych. Hence why my vote is squarely on him!!

4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

WIFOM Also you underestimate the amount of slips people tend to make. Like the amount of WIFOM reasoning you're using now to protect LF

First of all, I'm not protecting LF, and if you think I am, please point out where I am so I can either be corrected or prove you wrong.

Well, here's the thing. Your large posts directed towards me have focussed on on poking holes in my argument on LF, without actually presenting a case on me. Which would be fine, except that you're voting for me.

Second of all, no, this is not WIFOM. Yes, it's metagaming, but it's not WIFOM. I'm not saying that scum would do this because they're trying to look like town and be like, "why would I do this as scum?"

I'm saying it because it's bloody obvious that if someone where scum, they're not going to do the things that act like it. Notice I'm not going to say they're acting like town. Now that would be a WIFOM,

if it were contained in an argument by a scum describing how said scum is being protown.

Go give that wiki another look through.

That's as maybe, but you're using arguments which lead to WIFOM, which is just as bad. Not all scum are superhuman. Scum won't always get everything right. Sometimes they take a chance, do something risky, and it all goes wrong. If the scum NEVER made slips or dropped scumtells then the game would be pretty difficult for the town.

The only legitimate scumtell that transcends games is truthfully claiming scum. Everything else is playstyle.

So the lynch is randomly determined every day then, with no other contributing factors?

Selective reading? That explains why the wiki doesn't agree with you

If we're bandying around wiki catch phrases then maybe I should mention that you've tunnel-visioned on me.

No. You see, some scumtells don't transcend games. They're relevant to the game at hand, and they represent things that shouldn't occur in the game. Not every wishywashy player, not every awkward post, not every lurker, and not every misuse of logic makes the person scum. It's up to the players to figure out in the game which of the "scumtells" are legit and which are not. I don't think you've done that.

I disagree. I made a very considered read and re-read before I presented my argument on LF. I thought very carefully about whether I was going to go for dalt or LF, my two top candidates, and I decided that there was definitely much more on LF that made him scummy

You, my friend, have decided that wishy-washyness is a scumtell, and have decided that every single situation is appropriate for wishy-washyness to be a scumtell. You have not decided to actually think for yourself and ask yourself if this is appropriate to our situation at hand. THIS IS WRONG. You cannot just say that something is a scum tell and expect it to be a scum tell in every single game.

You need to go and re-read my argument, and realise that it wasn't just one line "LOL LF = wishy-washy LET'S VOTE LOL"

So you've decided to go on a smear campaign and attack LF because you think you've caught a scumtell. That is incredibly scummy. You've decided that you're going to ignore logic and reasoning and not look at what LF's votes actually mean (I mean, you posted them, but I don't think you really, truly looked at them, nor did you seem to care after LF explained them).

I'm also going to say that if his vote truly doesn't count, then it really doesn't matter where he puts it, and that alone gives him more than enough grounds to vote every single person in every single post if he felt like it (and was telling the truth).

No. Even though his vote doesn't count, it still holds sway with the town. Because he has everyones attention, he has to be careful where he puts his vote. With great power comes great responsibility.

At this point, I'm just actually saying that if I did:

Unvote Vote: RestFermata

Unvote Vote: Llama Fluff

Unvote Vote: Babygirl

Unvote Vote: Reborn

Then I'm doing a lot more harm than he is.

OK, but you're wrong. You've just one absolutely nothing. And in the case that you reassigned your vote for real, it may be worse, but only in a technical sense. And that still doesn't make LF right or correct, just because what he did is less bad than something you're hypothetically suggesting.

I'm also saying that the wishy washy "scumtell" that you oh so love doesn't really apply in this situation, because his vote doesn't count (allegedly), so I don't see why he's being scummy, when he could accomplish the same thing if he said:

To be honest, I don't think it's me who loves the scumtell, I think it's you! You've zeroed in on it like a sniper onto a friendly soldier. Just because he can't vote, it doesn't mean he can't make arguments, and so, especially on day 1, he can still control the voting. When someone votes (yes, even if it doesn't count), people want to know why, and if they should follow his vote. On Day 1, it's basically irrelevent whether he can vote or not. I'm pretty sure the town is just going to decide on someone to lynch at some point, I don't believe it'll be a split camp.

Unpizza, Pizza: Kmd

Unpizza, Pizza: Kloud

Right. my stuff is in bold again.

[Save The Dragons]

I'm sure a scum would speculate who they're going to kill early in-game IN THE GAME THREAD.

Now that's a WIFOM.

If anyone can give me a better definition of WIFOM than the wiki, I'd be glad to hear it, and I'll probably concede my WIFOM points.

Entirely WIFOM. Scum excuse scum tells by calling them too obvious and saying scum would never do such a thing.

I'm talking theory, not practice. I'm saying that scum who pay attention or even scum who think logically are going to avoid doing things like draw attention to themselves. I'm not saying they're going to avoid it to be like the town.

Basically, if I get caught being overeager in one game, I'm going to be less likely to throw myself out there in my next game as scum. I guess I worded my statement wrong. I apologize. I did not mean to imply that all scum avoided scumtells.

Second of all, no, this is not WIFOM. Yes, it's metagaming, but it's not WIFOM. I'm not saying that scum would do this because they're trying to look like town and be like, "why would I do this as scum?"

But scum do things that are seen as obvious scumtells and they DO say "why would I do that as scum?"

Yes, and that would be an example of WIFOM.

Nowhere do I say scum do these things, and then claim "why would I do that?" because I'm not talking about actual events, I'm talking about metagame, which Reborn opened pandora's box for when he suggested that wishy-washy people must be scum. He's using something that could be helpful for the town and turning it on its side. This is the meat and potatoes of my argument. The WIFOM spiel is more like a glass of wine.

If we set aside the WIFOM parts (which I'll admit, I'm not so keen on myself since my understanding of WIFOM is fuzzy at best), how does the rest of my argument fair, kmd?

[farside22]

Quagmire: Hello, 911? It's Quagmire. Yeah, yeah, it's in a window this time.

vote count:

kmd4390 1 vote: (xtoxm)
Elvis_Knits 1 vote: (Inspector Godot)
reborn537 2 votes: (LlamaFluff, Save the Dragons)
LlamaFluff 2 votes: (babygirl, reborn537)
babygirl86 2 votes: (GhostWriter, kloud1516)
Inspector Godot 1 vote: (RestFermata)

Not voting:

Elvis_Knits
kmd4390

With 12 people it take 7 votes for lynch
Day 1 ends August 25th, 4:00pm PST

[RestFermata]

By the way, you still haven't really answered about why you were doing so much power role speculation, IG. How does that help anybody?

[elvis_knits]

All I can think of is that in a game like this, experienced scum will often lurk because so many other players are doing it so they can get away with it.

I'm pretty sure farsidemod is being ruthless about prodding and replacing players. I don't think lurking is an issue in this game. If you disagree, who do you think is guilty of it?

We are barely getting any information from this.

You can't just say something's a scumtell.

1. I think scum try to avoid scumtells.
2. I think town try to avoid scumtells.
3. I think people play how they're gonna play.
4. I don't see how you can accuse an action as being a scumtell without clearly explaining why, in this case, it is a scumtell. Scumtells must be one time only things, because if you think about it, anything that is a scum tell instanly becomes not a scumtell, since scum will avoid it.

Entirely WIFOM. Scum excuse scum tells by calling them too obvious and saying scum would never do such a thing.

On this topic, I do think that scumtells exist. I also think that scum try to avoid them. I also think town try to avoid them. But I think the one of the main challenges of mafia is that it is really hard to avoid all scumtells even when you are aware of them. I have often played a game as scum and been like... "why do I keep doing that... doh!". But as to STD saying you should explain why something is a scumtell in any given situation, I definitely agree. Because more information is better. Often more is gained from the discussion of such things.

EBWOP - my typo probably made things unclear at the end.

My answers are in bold. There doesn't seem to be a case here, just an attack on my suspicions of LF followed by a vote on me. I'm looking at you as scum partners now

FoS StD

OMGUS much?

trying to look active much?

Are you trying to say that I am lurking? I only replaced in this game a few days ago. Have I not participated enough for you?

[Save The Dragons]

But as to STD saying you should explain why something is a scumtell in any given situation, I definitely agree. Because more information is better. Often more is gained from the discussion of such things.

You're my favorite.

[GhostWriter]

I'm going to ask that you please clarify the following for me, if you don't mind, STD:

For 1:

vote goborage

for even thinking about character claiming

Of course given a restriction of mine I doubt that vote will be of much use.

I have a problem with every single person deciding that it's more important to random vote than to at least acknowledge this discussion if not for Goborage's lines than for LlamaFluff's announcement of his posting restriction. Nobody said in their first post anything about either. You don't have to random vote...

Can you rephrase this? I don't understand what you're getting at. I apologize for not being able to, but I can't, and I'd really like to.

GhostWriter

(and I purposely avoided it last time, hoping it'd blow over)

o_O

To say that is like saying that you feel gobo was a bad enough player to come right out and sneak a claim in, not only at the start of the game, but PREgame.

As much as I'm not a huge fan of breadcrumbing as it is a metagame tactic, I do not find it to be poor play.

Also not getting what you're implying here.

[GhostWriter]

Also

Unvote

.

[Save The Dragons]

I have a problem with every single person deciding that it's more important to random vote than to at least acknowledge this discussion if not for Goborage's lines than for LlamaFluff's announcement of his posting restriction. Nobody said in their first post anything about either. You don't have to random vote...

Can you rephrase this? I don't understand what you're getting at. I apologize for not being able to, but I can't, and I'd really like to.

No one even mentioned either of the two things that llama brought up. I thought that was weird.

You also mentioned that gobo was a bad player for trickling a claim in. I disagree that he's a bad player for breadcrumbing.

As for the o_O, I don't think that you should be ignoring things and hoping they'd blow over.

[RestFermata]

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway? Sorry, this is just a strategic question from a newbie.

[LlamaFluff]

this game hasnt been getting enough of my attention, I will should have a larger post up later today

[GhostWriter]

I ignored Llama because I knew that wasn't a claim. I tried to ignore it, because, at the time that it was beginning, I felt it was obvious, and that no one would follow his(wrong) way of thinking about it. I did not care so much that he had begun to breadcrumb, but that he had done it in a situation that it did not make sense, and then pushing it so hard. This was all stated in the total of my posts (except the "blown over" part. That was not explained before, not clearly, at least...)

[GhostWriter]

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway? Sorry, this is just a strategic question from a newbie.

When were we told anything about safeclaims?

[RestFermata]

Nowhere. I was talking about theme games in general. In many of the ones I've read there have been safeclaims.

[RestFermata]

EBWOP. That's why I said "often", referring to "in theme games", so that would be clear. Guess it wasn't.

[LlamaFluff]

First off

Do you think this makes him scum?

It makes him look more scum then town, but is not something to lynch him on alone. I have described to death why I think character claim is bad, so anything that I percieve as someone either claiming or instigating a claim is scummy in my book. There are other reasons I had gobo as scum though which I outlined in my 21. From the way reborn has acted around my case doesnt help quell any suspicions though.

Also for my restriction, when I first announced it I interpreted it a different way then it actually was. I thought my vote never showed up, while in actuallity it does show, but just doesnt count. Basically my vote is an FoS, so if I was on a wagon that hit 7 votes, it wouldnt lynch.

On to bigger things - the lovers should find out if its a delayed suicide or not. I have seen instant suicide games and ones where its delayed by either a day or night (ie BG killed N1 xtoxm suicides end of D2). Either way both lovers should be kept off the chopping blocks today.

My main suspicions hover around reborn and IG.

For reborn, the case he is pushing on me seems to of burnt out a bit. After I explained my vote reasoning, the case just seems to of been stopped and he now is arguing with dragon about how scumtells are universal or not. The OMGUS basically of dragon who has a good post up on reborn in 293. I still would like answers from reborn about which of my votes are opportunistic or scummy and reasoning behind them. Once I asked for that information he has gone quiet and now seems to be basing my case more on the fact that he thinks dragon is defending me.

In post 295 my kmd-town vibe commited suicide. While in dragons inital vote there was no overwhelming case, 293 was strong and it seems to of been brushed aside as you pick apart the summary case. Reborn and IG still are much higher then you though.

IG seems be speculating and fishing quite a bit about my restriction and the cleveland issue. There are no solid conclusions though regarding these things, leaving them at "Im not sure" allowing movement to any side of the issue as needed later on. After the lover claim, in two consecutive posts he speculates about a scum lover.

In his aggressions IG right now has EK for previously mentioned reasons (which I have a hard time finding) and me for being overzealous? Can you explain each of those a little better, especially how you are attributing me being overzealous to me being scum. The EK vote bugs me when it was cast too as EK "made some good points". Making good points is something that I naturally attribute to a town tell, maybe this was just due to having no other suspects at the time though.

So I think reborn still is the best bet today, he seems to just be falling apart right now in his argument with dragon, still isnt backing up the reasons he is voting me too well and just general scumminess. IG also doesnt look too well as he spends most of his time speculating about roles and his suspicions are either hard to find or completely baseless.

[Save The Dragons]

I ignored Llama because I knew that wasn't a claim. I tried to ignore it, because, at the time that it was beginning, I felt it was obvious, and that no one would follow his(wrong) way of thinking about it. I did not care so much that he had begun to breadcrumb, but that he had done it in a situation that it did not make sense, and then pushing it so hard. This was all stated in the total of my posts (except the "blown over" part. That was not explained before, not clearly, at least...)

1. This is only half of Llama's post.
2. I don't really think that people are scummy for ignoring a post with potential information, since everyone did it, and not everyone is scum.

This is an example of a scumtell that clearly doesn't fit for this particular game.

What is the advantage of breadcrumbing in a theme game, where scum often have safeclaims anyway? Sorry, this is just a strategic question from a newbie.

I just don't think it makes a player bad if they breadcrumb. I think they should try to contain all their plays to non-meta plays, but that doesn't mean that it's bad. I think there are advantages and disadvantages (that I can't really think of right now).

[thinktank]

Nowhere. I was talking about theme games in general. In many of the ones I've read there have been safeclaims.

FoS: Fermata

[elvis_knits]

But as to STD saying you should explain why something is a scumtell in any given situation, I definitely agree. Because more information is better. Often more is gained from the discussion of such things.

You're my favorite.

<3