Mini 852- Crayola Catastrophe Game Over (Post 1158)

[Budja]

Ok, I guess I lied but heres a post now .

I think I explained in the post you quoted why one of them must be scum

No, you have explained why one of them

may

be scum. I fail to see why one

has

to be scum.

I have a question for you people: what did scum gain by snow_bunny's hammer?

A non-scum lynch.

*Also he said "null" on Pome's horrible waffle scumlist post.

It is null in my eyes. Not good play, but I cant see it as scummy as some of you seem to believe.

Page 1 greendude racism wagon. Chamber hatewagon. SoG jesterwagon. He gets on these easy wagons without even doing any hard work or attacking.

1. I was first (or close to) on the greendude wagon which was just a random vote anyway. Why bring this one up?
2. Chamber was an easy wagon but his playstyle was awfully anti-town.
3. I explained my case on SoG and was a fairly strong attacker (for my playstyle at least).

Just because my targets were "easy" doesn't mean its "scummy". I gave reasons

Do people think scum or town are more likely to want to lynch the jester?

Both.

Do you think SoG was acting like a jester? I actually thought he was town for a long time (lol). Certain things he did I consider scummy, like not wanting policy lynches and then going for one on zazie. But otherwise I thought he sounded sort of reasonable, atleast in the earlier posts.

He began acting town but began dropping scumtell after scumtell after chamber replaced. He didn't act like any jester I've seen before but he did act like scum.

Sorry for the brief post but the tags make it take twice as long.

[Nachomamma8]

So you would recommend to the town to lynch you immediately if Shanba turns up pro-town, right? If not, why not. Being that confident in scum or not-scum suggests something more than just a vanilla townie.

Gotta trust in how you play the game right? Sure, I'm game. Go for it. I'm just a vanilla townie but I'm confident that I've nailed a scum player here.

I think chibo is telling the truth.

However, please don't claim like this in the future.

I know nacho sort of goaded you into it, but it's not usually so good for the town to claim when you're not being run up to a lynch. It helps scum find power roles if they can narrow the field.

BTW, slight role-fishing tingles from nacho.

Why do you think that chibo's telling the truth? And that was meant to imply scum, not power role...

[Nachomamma8]

So you would recommend to the town to lynch you immediately if Shanba turns up pro-town, right? If not, why not. Being that confident in scum or not-scum suggests something more than just a vanilla townie.

Gotta trust in how you play the game right? Sure, I'm game. Go for it. I'm just a vanilla townie but I'm confident that I've nailed a scum player here.

I think chibo is telling the truth.

However, please don't claim like this in the future.

I know nacho sort of goaded you into it, but it's not usually so good for the town to claim when you're not being run up to a lynch. It helps scum find power roles if they can narrow the field.

BTW, slight role-fishing tingles from nacho.

Why do you think that chibo's telling the truth? And that was meant to imply scum, not power role...

[Pomegranate]

Will get a post up tomorrow.

[Kirbyoshi]

No, you have explained why one of them may be scum. I fail to see why one has to be scum.

Actually, EK has proven herself, so this is no longer my view, but it was mostly because of Josh's play (lurking, except when agreeing with a player who turned out to be a Heath Ledger-style Joker), and that they were at each other's throats so hard earlier that I thought that one of them had to be scum trying to force a mislynch. I know now that one was Shanba. In other news...

Chibo and Nacho have both raised on my scumdar recently, because of the recent exchange. Nacho was pretty wrong to rolefish there (and yes, that's what "more than vanilla" means imo), but Chibo should have called him on it immediately, rather than broadcasting to everyone, "I'M VANILLA GUYSSSSSSS!" Other than that, Chibo just seems like a new player who gets his words twisted around himself sometimes. Automatically adding some tact and wisdom to his posts would greatly benefit town

[Nachomamma8]

Chibo and Nacho have both raised on my scumdar recently, because of the recent exchange. Nacho was pretty wrong to rolefish there (and yes, that's what "more than vanilla" means imo), but Chibo should have called him on it immediately, rather than broadcasting to everyone, "I'M VANILLA GUYSSSSSSS!" Other than that, Chibo just seems like a new player who gets his words twisted around himself sometimes. Automatically adding some tact and wisdom to his posts would greatly benefit town

I don't believe I was rolefishing because I didn't ask for a claim, nor did I infer something was needed. If I was rolefishing, then what was I rolefishing for? A cop with a guilty result or scum, maybe, but that's not really that scummy to me. Secondly, I was pointing out a fact. Copious amounts of confidence suggest knowledge that a vanilla townie shouldn't have. Am I wrong in saying this?

[Kirbyoshi]

Chibo and Nacho have both raised on my scumdar recently, because of the recent exchange. Nacho was pretty wrong to rolefish there (and yes, that's what "more than vanilla" means imo), but Chibo should have called him on it immediately, rather than broadcasting to everyone, "I'M VANILLA GUYSSSSSSS!" Other than that, Chibo just seems like a new player who gets his words twisted around himself sometimes. Automatically adding some tact and wisdom to his posts would greatly benefit town

I don't believe I was rolefishing because I didn't ask for a claim, nor did I infer something was needed. If I was rolefishing, then what was I rolefishing for? A cop with a guilty result or scum, maybe, but that's not really that scummy to me. Secondly, I was pointing out a fact. Copious amounts of confidence suggest knowledge that a vanilla townie shouldn't have. Am I wrong in saying this?

I don't think that's necessarily always the case. It could just mean an overly zealous newb townie.

Do you think cop should claim with guilty no matter what? I ask merely for information.

[Nachomamma8]

No. The cop could be insane, there could be far too many scum for it to matter... Now, in a open game setup (confirmed sanity) with less than 15 players, then I'd say yes, every time. Otherwise, it's basically personal discretion.

[Nachomamma8]

I honestly need to start previewing my posts.

[elvis_knits]

Um I tend to believe Chibo because there was no benefit to him doing that as scum, IMO. I just know when I'm scum that I want to leave myself as open-ended as possible so that I can claim whatever I need to if things happen. I wouldn't want to commit to a claim unless I was forced to. Unless it's some kind of gambit, but I don't know what kind of gambit would involve claiming vanilla.

Basically his claim and reasoning are consistent. He thinks the snowbunny hammer guarantees us that shanba is scum. And he's too new to realize that "guarantee" makes most of us think of investigation and power roles.

This is not to say that I wouldn't challenge chibo if he said or did something I thought was scummy, but for now I tentatively believe him.

Nacho, why don't you believe him? Do you think he is scummy? If so, what are the reasons? Is it because of his claim, or other reasons?

---

In other news, Budja is still scum. He hid on easy wagons all D1, and the only original thought he's had all game is voting kirbyoshi, and I think kirby is town.

If Pome can do some scum hunting I'd like to move my vote to Budja.

[ZazieR]

If correct, everybody has posted after the lynch. So I'm curious:
How come nobody asked what a jester is and how it already won?

This question should be answered in this queue:
First - Chibo and Nacho
Second - GD and Kirby
Third - Pome, Socio and Budja.

Doesn't matter when you answer, as long as the those mentioned before your group answered before your group.

[ZazieR]

I don't feel it changes anything. SoG wasn't town either way which means to Snow_Bunny for all she knew he was town seeing that she would have known he wasn't mafia (considering shes mafia and knows the other mafia members).

The whole line of voting for her really didn't sitwell with me. I know I was one of the ending votes, but I didn't hammer for a purpose and wanted to see how she would handle the pressure having a chance from a normal vote to be turned to a hammer, and she jumped right to the occasion not thinking about it.

Why did you answer a question that wasn't aimed at you?
Would you have hammered him?
Is this the main reason you think Shanba is scum?

[ZazieR]

zazie is right about just about everything, but some of his lines of enquiry are pretty pointless (like asking green_dude if he really wanted his colour changed - I'm pretty sure he did!) In particular, though, I wanted to try and explain his attack on josh_lyman since I think he hasn't been entirely clear there: Josh's vote is for lurking, which josh explains as a jokevote - but in his post he says that it is only semi-random - which indicates that it can't be entirely random. I don't think this in and of itself is significant, but I do think the amount of time Josh spent debating on this and not talking about other, more important things is scummy.

My reason for asking GD that question wasn't to ask IF he asked the mod that, but WHY he asked the mod that question. The IF question was only asked as 'side track question'.
As for the part regarding Josh, it was because of the 'semi-'. As already stated, it was the first day it had started and Josh was the one who was almost last. Only the one who he voted posted later than Josh. Add that he hasn't pursued any other lurker that day, while stating he hates them. Those are the reasons why I don't like this vote.

As for your scum list, I say Josh (Now EK) and Pome in the scumteam. The third is one of the other three players you've mentioned.

[ZazieR]

EBWOP: As for the third spot for scum, my list:
1. Chibo
2. Budja
3. Nacho

[ChiboSempai]

If correct, everybody has posted after the lynch. So I'm curious:
How come nobody asked what a jester is and how it already won?

This question should be answered in this queue:
First - Chibo and Nacho
Second - GD and Kirby
Third - Pome, Socio and Budja.

Doesn't matter when you answer, as long as the those mentioned before your group answered before your group.

Why would I ask what a Jester is? lol

Besides the fact that there is a wiki, I've played in games before with a Jester. Even though my join date is very new here (and I'm still somewhat new to mafia in general) I played couple games on Smash World Forums for the month before I signed up here, and I play AIM Mafia (despite being very different) a lot so I've still encountered plenty of different roles in games. In fact, there was a Jester in the very first game I played (in a closed setup) and I was the first to suspect the person of it, being correct on my assumption. It just honestly never occurred to me that SoG could be a jester.

[ZazieR]

Before anything, Shanba can you please not type in all bold, even if it is a little easier to read. It makes it harder for people to scan and find votes, even if you put bold tags around it, though it comes out as text since your already in bold.

I already explained my vote on SoG. It was to put pressure on Snow_Bunny. I wanted to see if her reasoning for thinking SoG was legit. People vote differently when it's a vote (especially putting them at L-1) and hammering them. I almost wanted to see if she had the guts, believed in her reasoning enough, and would debate about it more before she hammered.

Her hammer post was well... Interesting. I don't like how it turned out. Besides the fact she missed color (which almost everyone has done at some point or other) but it seems to hint at rushing to get that hammer in before someone unvotes. She posted 3 minutes later trying to explain how it was technically me who hammered him also claiming that she didn't realized she hammered him at first, but that's not gonna fly. If she had actually thought about what was going on and read the ~1 page of posts between her two votes, she would know whats going on, and there would also be no need for two posts, the first being rushed imo, which had to be in even 3 minutes before her explanation.

Same policy as the Zazier replacement though, I'm not just gonna let a replacement clear all doubts. If Snow_Bunny acts scummy, with the chance she's scum (her being my #1 suspect right now), then her replacement is scum as well, being Shanba. Shanba is going to have to prove that he's not scum, instead of the opposite (finding reasons to think he's scum) like other players after my scum read on Snow_Bunny.

Vote: Shanba

Zazier seems to be one of the best players here at analyzing the situations and all of the players. What's your take on Snow_Bunny/Shanba concerning Bunnie's fake (accidental) vote on SoG, and her hammering post, and Shanba's reasoning for voting me?

First of all, why didn't you point out these things regarding SB in your first post of the day? You did state that you thought it was scummy, but not this detailed.
Secondly, I don't think you ever addressed SB's reasons for voting SoG. How come and what did you think of them?

At this moment, I'm leaning town on Shanba (Previously SB). Shanba has good accusations and I can see a reason why SB's hammer vote can be explained. Leaving my previous accusations, but compared to arguments against others, she looks better than most of them.
Also, I can see where Shanba is coming from against you as the reason for your vote is weak with reasons explained.

[elvis_knits]

zazie is right about just about everything, but some of his lines of enquiry are pretty pointless (like asking green_dude if he really wanted his colour changed - I'm pretty sure he did!) In particular, though, I wanted to try and explain his attack on josh_lyman since I think he hasn't been entirely clear there: Josh's vote is for lurking, which josh explains as a jokevote - but in his post he says that it is only semi-random - which indicates that it can't be entirely random. I don't think this in and of itself is significant, but I do think the amount of time Josh spent debating on this and not talking about other, more important things is scummy.

My reason for asking GD that question wasn't to ask IF he asked the mod that, but WHY he asked the mod that question. The IF question was only asked as 'side track question'.
As for the part regarding Josh, it was because of the 'semi-'. As already stated, it was the first day it had started and Josh was the one who was almost last. Only the one who he voted posted later than Josh. Add that he hasn't pursued any other lurker that day, while stating he hates them. Those are the reasons why I don't like this vote.

As for your scum list, I say Josh (Now EK) and Pome in the scumteam. The third is one of the other three players you've mentioned.

I'm not following you zazie...

So what was the point of asking GD WHY he asked the mod if he could change his color? What would this indicate to you either way?

And I still don't understand the "semi" part and why you objected to it and josh lyman. And what have you thought of me since I joined? I've been much more active since taking over the player slot, so that should make it easier for you to judge allignment.

Also, I asked you why you are very active in some games and lurk hardcore in others. Can you explain?

[ChiboSempai]

I don't feel it changes anything. SoG wasn't town either way which means to Snow_Bunny for all she knew he was town seeing that she would have known he wasn't mafia (considering shes mafia and knows the other mafia members).

The whole line of voting for her really didn't sitwell with me. I know I was one of the ending votes, but I didn't hammer for a purpose and wanted to see how she would handle the pressure having a chance from a normal vote to be turned to a hammer, and she jumped right to the occasion not thinking about it.

Why did you answer a question that wasn't aimed at you?
Would you have hammered him?
Is this the main reason you think Shanba is scum?

It was a good point brought up, and offered my view on it as well. Also considering it was my first post of the day, so I had input on the hammering and such anyway.

[ZazieR]

May I first read? Thank you.

[ZazieR]

I only skimmed half the game, not taking notes,

since I wasn't sure I would see morning

.

Why (Regarding the bolded)?

Pretty sure from the above post that Shanba is scum though. Buddies to chamber, affirms that SoG wagon was good except for the end because he wants to blame budja and chibo. And then connects me to budja because budja didn't agree with an attack on me... some BS reasoning that since the attack was weak, we are likely scum together? Why assume we're scum, rather than , oh say, budja saw weak reasoning and disagreed with it?

How did he buddy?
As for the SoG wagon bit, looking at your list with opinions of each player, you also state that Budja's vote was scummy. So do you still think that Shanba was blaming Budja? Also, what did you think of Chibo's vote?

Shanba's brand of reasoning is divisive, discouraging town from picking on a bad attack lest they be accused of being scum buddies. If Shanba agrees that it was a weak attack against me, then what Budja did was perfectly natural.

Rephrase?
Also, the last thing isn't what Shanba said.

I also think that discussing scum buddies TOO much is a scum tactic. Noticing relationships between players is a good thing, but noticing a connection between two players should not be the basis for thinking they're both scum. It is simply not enough and too open to manipulation. Possible scum connections should only be supporting evidence, until such time as somebody flips scum. That is the only time that we should get too far into scum buddy talk, when we have something concrete. Otherwise it is a fallacy.

Oh, and BTW, Shanba replaced snowbunny who hammered instead of allowing me to play the game as manzcar. Didn't want a replacement coming in and changing the lynch, did she? Not when she knew the lynch was not on any of the scum team. Push that baby through and NK me... much easier for them.

And another thing, did anyone else notice how Shanba blames the end of the lynch, conveniently not mentioning his part in it, how snowbunny's hammer was probably the worst vote of them all?

First paragraph: Looking at your list with opinions of players again, you didn't mention this at my bit. Eventhough you think it's scummy. How come?

Second paragraph: Do you still think this is the case?

Third paragraph: SB's vote wasn't the worst vote.

[ZazieR]

Chamber was replaced but the player slot is not dead. If you're saying chamber wagon was bad and he's town, then you're saying zazie is town too.

Oh? Didn't you say that the wagon was bad and that Chamber looked town? Yet, you think I'm neutral. Please explain the difference between this quote and your impression of me.

[ZazieR]

Yea SOG did play Jester pretty damn well lol.

But all seriousness aside, I'm not buying these posts from Shanba.

I like how he tried to even call Snow_Bunny scummy but claims it's not a problem since he knows the hammer didn't come from a scum player. Since you're declaring yourself as a townie here, mind telling us which one?
It's too convenient to play the whole replacement excuse trying to push all of scum reads on the person he replaced onto that person, and not on the role they shared.

If Snow_Bunny acted scummy (which I think we can agree overall it was a horrendously scummy move), it was because the role Snow_Bunny was playing was a scum role, not because Snow_Bunny was a scummy player.

And the scum role gets passed onto the replacement, Shanba.

Rolefishing.
Also, how did you come to that conclusion? (see the bolded)

[ZazieR]

Wow, I think this is the first post I disagree with Socio.

[ZazieR]

I agree with EK in that this was not necessary, and also a bit scummy, but I don't like her last sentence. Why do you think this, EK?

I don't think shanba is obvtown or anything. But the fact that chibo seems to be rolefishing hard makes me think shanba

may

be town. You know, that he's the victim of rolefishing-scum-chibo.

Perhaps Chobo is too new to know otherwise.

Seems this isn't the case as he just pointed out he has played before. Thoughts about his rolefishing?

[ZazieR]

Ok, so looking back, I think my case on Josh was a little far-fetched, and EK hasn't been acting scummy at all, so for the moment she's off my scumdar. Shanba, on the other hand,

has

been acting scummy (I concur with Chibo and Socio, although I trust Socio more atm), so, true to my only other post today...

Vote: Shanba

Chibo went up on my list for the rolefishing, but I think his case on Snow/Shanba holds water.

Please elaborate on the following:
-You stated that you think your case against Josh is a little

Why do you think this?
-You state that Shanba has been acting scummy. With which arguments used by Socio and Chobi against Shanba do you agree?