Newbie 694 (over)

[GIEFF]

Re: longer discussion. Maybe the confusion is the use of the word longer. I was speaking more to the length and number of posts; were you talking about length with regard to time? It still looks inconsistent to me to say that longer discussion is pro-town, yet claim that Xtoxm's short posts that limit the potential for future discussion are pro-town as well.

-----------------

Re: the two questions I asked that you think look like padding. Both these questions are related to points I am still not completely clear on. The fact that you answered by quoting your original points (not adding new discussion on your end) and claiming that any further discussion is anti-town (trying to stop any new discussion from my end) is highly suspicious, as it looks like you are trying to hide something.

I will stop asking questions when things are clearer to me and I feel like the question has been answered to my satisfaction, not when I am threatened that further questioning is anti-town.

1st question (re: voting patterns)

: these were habits you had as scum. Your motivation for FOS'ing and voting people would be completely different if you are town in this game, so it's odd that you would fall into the same habit as before, especially when you consciously realize that doing so looks scummy. The burden of proof is on you to explain why you've done this again. Why did you leave your vote on militant all day, even after repeated FOS's of others?

2nd question (re: you not voting for someone higher on your scumlist)

: this is similar to the first question, in that it relates to your voting behavior. It was also intended to clarify to me your thoughts about Xtoxm, especially related to your claim that you do not regret your vote.

You said that "some good" came from the lynch, yet the only good thing you mentioned was the lead on Xtoxm. My point is that if you don't find Xtoxm very scummy, then you must not think it is a very good lead, which in turn would mean that little good came from the lynch, and therefore you should regret your vote. It is still unclear to me why you do not regret it.

And I will ask again;

do others who voted for militant/_over/Dipstick regret their votes?

---------------------

I have another point, ham, relating to what I perceive as your unwillingness to interact with Xtoxm:


To show you what I mean, I'll link to three examples.


1. Instead of commenting on my Post 262, you threw out your reverse-OMGUS IGMEOY on him for an unrelated subject, which as far as I believe was your first real interaction with him all game.

2. In my Post 356 I make the case that Xtoxm has done very little scumhunting. Your next post in the game was to talk about the insanepenguin replacing into the game and to question his (extremely poor) logic after he FOS'd Xtoxm; you made no mention of my post 356.

3. When Xtoxm in Post 407 said

ham - For same reasons as before, I find him town, and I haven't seen anything that's made me want to change my mind about this. Town.

, why didn't you comment? You IGMEOY'd him for saying this once, yet completely ignored it when he did it a second time; this is inconsistent. Not to mention the fact that the second time he says this is scummier in my eyes, because he claims he provided earlier reasons for finding you town, yet I don't believe he has

(still waiting for you to provide them, Xtoxm)

.



Now here is your post explaining why you find CR's behavior suspicious:

I've been rereading, gathering thoughts on various people and I've noticed something about CR. CR has jumped on suspicious behaviour the whole thread but steered well clear of discussions regarding infamouseace2's anti-town behaviour. I've recently noticed a similar vibe in his behaviour to Westbrooke.

Do you agree that you have exhibited similar behavior toward Xtoxm up until the point I accused you of doing so?



I would like to hear from CarnCarn, Westbrook, and SilverPhoenix (or his replacement); you three have been quiet for a few days now.

[GIEFF]

One more point, ham.

Here is your IGMEOY of Xtoxm:

I'm not sus of Ham.

Any particular reason why this is? That's a pretty strong statement considering that no one is above suspicion to a townie.

IGMEOY: Xtoxm

"No one is above suspicion to a townie." I agree.


Now, here is part of my Post 210

GIEFF appeared to be defending you (

militant

). In the face of the evidence he appears to have an unusual bias to innocence regarding you. I know everyone has their own opinion, If GIEFF provided rock solid reasons that would have been acceptable otherwise, it looks like he's defending you.

hambargaz, I have already addressed this, in post 178.

Post 178:

hambargaz - it looks scummy to me (

CR and uri attacking militant for unvoting me

) because the logic behind it is faulty. The case against militant was based on him changing his opinion, but as I said, there was no opinion to change - it was a random vote.

I never said militant is innocent, or even looks innocent, I simply said that the unvote does not seem scummy.

Do you disagree?

In post 213, you answered:

may have given the impression that I got the impression you were saying militant was innocent. I know this isn't what you said. Given that the evidence in my eyes, points fingers at militant, I may have misinterpreted your post. But I also didn't mean that you were saying he's certain innocent, I couldn't think of a better word at the time. What I meant was more like "innocent in relation to his accusers".

Obviously you would not say he's innocent (how would you know right?).

(emphasis mine)

You assumed that I didn't know if militant was town, which means you assumed by extension that I am town, right? Why?

"No one is above suspicion to a townie."

[CarnCarn]

Hey all, back from V/LA and catching up on the stuff that's been posted recently (a lot).

Right now, I'm trying to figure out why xtoxm is avoiding the NK question after he originally brought it up (which I think is a WIFOM anyway). I can't think of a pro-town reason for him to 1) bring up the issue, then 2) completely ignore it after 8+ times of being asked the question.
I don't think it's helpful to talk about NK's on D2, since scum can manipulate the discussion very easily, but CR seems to have a legitimate reason to push xtoxm to talk about it here, IMO.

I also think GIEFF is tunnelling a lot on hambargarz in recent posts and several of his points seem like reaches by aggressive scum, although ham is on my suspicious list at the moment, but well below xtoxm. I will try to give specific examples from recent posts, but I am currently in a bind for time, so expect this to come later at some point.

[hambargarz]

Re: longer discussion. Maybe the confusion is the use of the word longer. I was speaking more to the length and number of posts; were you talking about length with regard to time? It still looks inconsistent to me to say that longer discussion is pro-town, yet claim that Xtoxm's short posts that limit the potential for future discussion are pro-town as well.

Ok, I admit I'm finding your train of thought hard to follow. Length and number of posts don't really concern me, neither does it in relation to time. What is important is stimulating discussion and content. ie. Quality over quantity. Xtoxm's posts had content and action, it just so happened that they were short. It was obvious to everyone what he was doing and why, there is no need for an essay if you're reason is clear, compelling and logically sound. (NOTE: this comment applies to Xtoxms early posts, not his recent behaviour)

-----------------

Re: the two questions I asked that you think look like padding. Both these questions are related to points I am still not completely clear on. The fact that you answered by quoting your original points (not adding new discussion on your end) and claiming that any further discussion is anti-town (trying to stop any new discussion from my end) is highly suspicious, as it looks like you are trying to hide something.

I honestly thought I had answered your questions sufficiently the first time. I reposted the quotes to show you. I even rephrased them with explanation just in case you still were unclear.

I will stop asking questions when things are clearer to me and I feel like the question has been answered to my satisfaction, not when I am threatened that further questioning is anti-town.

Do you feel threatened? I didn't say your questioning was anti-town, quite the contrary actually. I did mention that the repeated questions on points already answered was on the edge and could be seen as padding to beef up any case against me (if you were indeed trying to build up a case on me), but I didn't say they were anti-town.


------------

1st question (re: voting patterns)

: these were habits you had as scum. Your motivation for FOS'ing and voting people would be completely different if you are town in this game, so it's odd that you would fall into the same habit as before, especially when you consciously realize that doing so looks scummy. The burden of proof is on you to explain why you've done this again. Why did you leave your vote on militant all day, even after repeated FOS's of others?

I've already answered this, There's nothing more to say, other than to repeat myself, ie that's how I play. Are you really asking, why do I not play like you would? well that's because I'm not you.

I'm not sure why you are asking this question, unless you are implying that I'm scummy by behaving as I was before, whilst being conscious it was seen as scummy behaviour. This is WIFOM, As I could also say that if I were scum, wouldn't I have a motivation to AVOID my previous behaviour as it was seen as scummy?

To answer the last part of your question more directly, If I thought the points I brought up on others warranted a vote above militant, believe me, I would have changed vote. I mostly vote who I think is the most likely candidate this doesn't mean I'm not allowed to have suspicions on other players in the mean time. In short, Militant was my number 1 candidate and remained so, I didn't change my vote because he was the most likely scum, changing my vote to lesser suspects would not be honest and confuse the town as to my position.

--------------

2nd question (re: you not voting for someone higher on your scumlist)

: this is similar to the first question, in that it relates to your voting behavior. It was also intended to clarify to me your thoughts about Xtoxm, especially related to your claim that you do not regret your vote.

You said that "some good" came from the lynch, yet the only good thing you mentioned was the lead on Xtoxm. My point is that if you don't find Xtoxm very scummy, then you must not think it is a very good lead, which in turn would mean that little good came from the lynch, and therefore you should regret your vote. It is still unclear to me why you do not regret it.

To regret your vote is to say you did something wrong. I don't think I did anything wrong, Dipstick was simply the best candidate at the time. I would vote him again in the same situation. I should ask you why you DO regret you're vote, would you have voted differently? why didn't you say anything, why DID you place that vote? In fact, I would say it's somewhat of a scum tell to talk about you're previous votes that way.

+1 FOS: GIEFF

As for you're points on what good came from a town lynch, it's not limited to xtoxm, but I can't say what because I can't tell the future. Looking back at day1 events with Dipstick confirmed town will cast other players actions in a different light in future days.


---------------------

I have another point, ham, relating to what I perceive as your unwillingness to interact with Xtoxm:

...

Do you agree that you have exhibited similar behavior toward Xtoxm up until the point I accused you of doing so?

Besides the fact that I am supporting some points AGAINST Xtoxm as well as bringing up one of my own, Yes there are some similarities, what is your point? Are you saying it's scummy?

NOTE: gtg, this post is a bit rushed I may have missed some points, will address them when I get back

[hasdgfas]

cunninghamronald replaces SilverPhoenix. Thanks a lot!

[GIEFF]

I've already answered this, There's nothing more to say, other than to repeat myself, ie that's how I play.

That is fine; I kept asking because I was not satisfied by your answer, and still find it suspicious. You've said old habits die hard, yet I only see one other game of yours on this site. Seeing a game where you voted in a similar manner as town would do a lot to ease my suspicion; this is why I said the burden of proof was on you.

I'm not sure why you are asking this question, unless you are implying that I'm scummy by behaving as I was before, whilst being conscious it was seen as scummy behaviour.

Early in the game, you said that you did something last game that was scummy, when you were scum. You've done the same thing this game. Let's not get into the WIFOM aspects you mention; my point is that you've done the same thing twice as scum, and as I can't find any games on this site with you as town, I've informed you that the burden of proof is on you to convince me that your voting pattern is a hambargaz habit rather than a hambargaz-as-scum habit.

Do you feel threatened? I didn't say your questioning was anti-town, quite the contrary actually. I did mention that the repeated questions on points already answered was on the edge and could be seen as padding to beef up any case against me (if you were indeed trying to build up a case on me), but

I didn't say they were anti-town.

You implied they were anti-town, as in your below quote:

I will add this, you're questioning on me, is generally good town play.

but

the last 2 questions on me above this, Where I've answered with my own posts, are verging on the edge.

Yes, I took this as a threat. I interpreted this as you saying "Questioning me is OK, but as soon as I give an answer, do not question me about this further." I was not satisfied by the answers, and so I asked the questions again. Answering to my satisfaction or saying "I have nothing else to say" will end the questioning.

In fact, I would say it's somewhat of a scum tell to talk about you're previous votes that way.
+1 FOS: GIEFF

You were the first to do this, not me. You said "I do not regret my vote" in response to me saying that following Xtoxm is not a good strategy. I only brought up the fact that I do regret my vote to contrast my thoughts with yours. Once again, you FOS someone for something you yourself have done.

I also think GIEFF is tunnelling a lot on hambargarz in recent posts and several of his points seem like reaches by aggressive scum, although ham is on my suspicious list at the moment, but well below xtoxm. I will try to give specific examples from recent posts, but I am currently in a bind for time, so expect this to come later at some point.

The fact that Xtoxm refuses to answer any questions makes questioning him difficult, so I am focusing on who I find next-most suspicious. Please do give specific examples when you have time.

Also CarnCarn, do you regret your vote for _over?

[cunninghamronald]

thank thanks i'll try my besy to help who ever i can by any means but i need a list of names if i may

[cunninghamronald]

sorry i just got up

[GIEFF]

Welcome, cunninghmanronald. I don't know what you mean by a list of names, but these are the 7 players still alive:

GIEFF
cunninghamronald
CarnCarn
hambargarz
Westbrook_Owns_U
ClockworkRuse
Xtoxm


Can you read through the thread and post your thoughts on everyone?

[ClockworkRuse]

thank thanks i'll try my besy to help who ever i can by any means but i need a list of names if i may

A lot of Mods use the first post of the game as a sort of up-to-date player count. Sometimes the mod will also put the vote count there.

To always view the first post of the forum, go to the profile tab under 'Watched Topics' and click yes to Always show First Post on every Topic Page.

Waiting for Xtoxm.

[hasdgfas]

ok, Vel-Ran Koon(the Newbie List Mod) has informed me about some problems regarding cunninghamronald, so I need to find another replacement. Sorry about that. Anyone who wants to know, PM me. Leave it out of the thread.

[hasdgfas]

ok, Amished replaces in now, and hopefully that's the end of that.

[Amished]

Yep, I'm in. I just wanted to let you know that I'll be reading it late tonight most likely, as we're kinda celebrating Christmas atm. Give you some updates shortly hopefully

[ClockworkRuse]

Waiting for Xtoxm

[ClockworkRuse]

Major HoS

Xtoxm

He's been posting other places on the site for the past four days and he has already acknowledged the questions he has ignored.

I'm calling lurking.

[Xtoxm]

Yeh. (Have actually been less active due to christmas)

But i'm not scum. You probably are. I'm probably going to be lynched today.

Try and take a look at stuff (real) tomorrow.

[CarnCarn]

^^^Are you ever planning on answering the question that GIEFF and CR have been asking you for a while now?

But i'm not scum. You probably are. I'm probably going to be lynched today.

With a defense like this, I would agree with your conclusion. Looking forward to your post tomorrow, though.

[Amished]

Looks like we have a wagon starting in any case. I'm still reading (ended up watching a movie (The Bucket List, if you haven't seen it, do so. Absolutely amazing.))

I like to be thorough in my organization of thoughts, so I probably won't be posting tonight anymore. After I finish my current readthrough (half way there, little confusing with some of the replacements, but manageable) I'll probably head to bed, and then when I wake up, I'll read through again.

If it's not already done, would you all like to summarize some of the major reasons they think one person or another is scummy? Also, if you have any questions of me, or about my predecessor, I would be glad to try to answer them to the best of my ability.

Thank you all for your patience, and hope to catch up to you all as soon as I can.

[ClockworkRuse]

Yeh. (Have actually been less active due to christmas)

But i'm not scum. You probably are. I'm probably going to be lynched today.

Try and take a look at stuff (real) tomorrow.

This doesn't change the fact that you've been active in other games for the past few days. And with post you could have easily answered the questions put forth to you.

[GIEFF]

CarnCarn, when you get a chance, could you go into more detail about which of my points seem like reaches by aggressive scum, and why?

I also think GIEFF is tunnelling a lot on hambargarz in recent posts and several of his points seem like reaches by aggressive scum, although ham is on my suspicious list at the moment, but well below xtoxm. I will try to give specific examples from recent posts, but I am currently in a bind for time, so expect this to come later at some point.

Also, if hambargaz is on your suspicion list but "well below" Xtoxm, that implies you have at least 3 or 4 people on your suspicion list. Could you present some analysis or evidence to show why you feel that one (or more) of the people on your list between ham and Xtoxm is (are) suspicious?


You still here, Westbrook?

[Xtoxm]

For the second time, what reasons did you give for finding ham town?

Well the way he's acted looks like genuine pro-town interests, and genuine attempts to scumhunt. I'm not sure if I can explain it much better than that. Along with a few small things along the way that make me think he's town. Suffice to say, he has me convinced he's town, and at this point I trust him.

Why did you vote for ClockworkRuse?

Well, not just for the night-kill, also looking back over his posts, when I initially hadn't suspected him, I found I wasn't really seeing much from him. He hadn't done anything directly scummy, as such, which is why I wouldn't have noticed first time round, but I didn't see anything that really made me think he was town either. This, along with my nightkill reasoning (which is only a back-up, really) is when I initially mentioned my suspicion of him. Shortly after, I decided to vote him. I can't remember if this was because I hadn't found anywhere better to put it, or because I disliked a reaction of his. Possibly a mixture of both. His subsequent kick-back looks construed to me, I think he's scum and he's attacking me because he knows i'm largely viewed as scummy, and he can easily get me mislynched, so there's no point in trying to do anything else.

Night-kill thing. It's really not that big of a deal, and it pretty much applies to me just as much, but I wasn't expecting that as a kill, I think someone picked up a cop-tell from him, so expect it more from an experienced player like CR, whereas a pair of newbie-scum I would more expect to kill a vocal player. I can see CR being more comfortable in that kind of a situation.

[Amished]

Almost there... I stayed up til 2 trying to read as far as I could.... I didn't quite get all caught up like I said I would, but some definite theories (especially about day 1 and the night phase) has come up to me. So far they make sense, but who knows if I'm making something out of nothing. So far I think I saw something that nobody else did, that might lead to some interesting discussion. Of course, it might not but we'll see.

[ClockworkRuse]

For the second time, what reasons did you give for finding ham town?

Well the way he's acted looks like genuine pro-town interests, and genuine attempts to scumhunt. I'm not sure if I can explain it much better than that. Along with a few small things along the way that make me think he's town. Suffice to say, he has me convinced he's town, and at this point I trust him.

Why did you vote for ClockworkRuse?

Well, not just for the night-kill, also looking back over his posts, when I initially hadn't suspected him, I found I wasn't really seeing much from him. He hadn't done anything directly scummy, as such, which is why I wouldn't have noticed first time round, but I didn't see anything that really made me think he was town either. This, along with my nightkill reasoning (which is only a back-up, really) is when I initially mentioned my suspicion of him. Shortly after, I decided to vote him. I can't remember if this was because I hadn't found anywhere better to put it, or because I disliked a reaction of his. Possibly a mixture of both. His subsequent kick-back looks construed to me, I think he's scum and he's attacking me because he knows i'm largely viewed as scummy, and he can easily get me mislynched, so there's no point in trying to do anything else.

Night-kill thing. It's really not that big of a deal, and it pretty much applies to me just as much, but I wasn't expecting that as a kill, I think someone picked up a cop-tell from him, so expect it more from an experienced player like CR, whereas a pair of newbie-scum I would more expect to kill a vocal player. I can see CR being more comfortable in that kind of a situation.

No, I'm attacking you because you've been lurking heavily and pushing a case that you refused to explain. If you can't explain it, I can't defend against it.

And you say you saw a cop tell in Insane's play? Please point that out because I didn't see anything like that.

To me, it doesn't even look like you really have a case at all. This all looks like a lot of gut feeling with no substance.

So; Why am I more likely to make this night kill rather than one of the other ICs? CarnCarn has been playing for a much longer time than I have, I believe he has at least, so why do you single me out based on that logic?

Where exactly did I have a reaction that you felt was scummy enough for voting?

It looks like you are saying that I haven't done anything scummy but I haven't done anything town either, so I am scum? Please elaborate on how this makes me scum.

[Amished]

Ok, well, I finished my first read through...

First thing I tried to figure out when I replaced in, since there was a night kill already, is why them? Obviously there's many reasons, and even more potential answers, but it seemed to be as good a place to start as any. Obviously I was without bias coming in, so I could just digest it all at once, without having to worry about delays, unanswered questions, or anything that might cloud my judgment beyond the posts themselves.

My first slight clue came from GIEFF. All along he's seemed like the most pro-town to me, and apparently to many other people. (Obviously only counting d1, as d2 would have no bearing on the NK). I felt that an experienced player would take away the most townie, leaving many slightly suspicious players for d2 to fight out. I've read this in a couple other theory threads around, and it's the general consensus among almost all the experienced and well known players out there. This led me to two conclusions: the mafia are probably less experienced (+1 good point to the IC's) and were looking to target a power role, which is probably better to take out than a townie in their opinion. Heck, if they got a power role, they'd be much better off, though it's a risk if they didn't (which they didn't).

Near the end of D1, since I had a point towards the IC's (Clockwork and xtoxm) for being pro-townie, I let it slide a bit more, and I didn't see as much scummy as a couple other suspects (getting there). Though there was a case building against xtoxm as well (the lack of responses, which is concerning now, but I want to see an explanation about that). This led to me thinking that the scum wanted to leave him there for a potential mis-lynch today (which it looked like it was going towards, with several people speaking against him when I joined in). Therefore they could take out the pro-townie tonight, and then we'd be more or less screwed. It seemed like a plausible long term gameplan from newer people, and so far it seemed like it has gone that way still.

So, back to the reasoning for the night kill: I'd hyperlink it to you, but I'm not sure how. I wrote down part of CarnCarn's response in 204. He? mentions both potential pro-town power roles (Doctor and Cop, both were in relation to what could happen later in this game, not really a hypothetical). The swaying point for me at the time was that it looked to me like he was trying to let the power roles (if any) choose for themselves their own playstyle, though he did say more about the cop potentially keeping quiet, unless there was good reasons for it. This looked like it was more pro-town to me than anti-town, so point to him then.

What I believe the mafia were thinking is that the person (elenaro/insane, the NK) was looking for potential advice on their role in a subtle way, also fitting in with my theory.

So, since I know the 7 of us are alive, 2 are ic's, and were more pro-town in my views, Gieff was most pro-town IMO, and Carn was advocating your own, yet still thoughtful play for any power roles, and I know myself, this leaves 2 people that could be yet scummy, and should look at them. Infamous/Westbrook and Hambargarz. Off and on I see not that great of logic (inf looked to be suspect #2 day 1, and Ham was MotR for the most part, or appeared to be. Not really on vote/FoS lists, but wasn't mentioned as higher pro-town either).

I looked through some, and found mostly minor stuff from ham, and mostly stuff already noted about inf. However, one of the only lines in this whole thread that seemed to really strike a chord with me, and nobody else caught it (if it's anything) seemed to be a hell of a newbie scum mistake. I'd like to refer you to post 343 on page 14. Specifically the last line. If Westbrook was scum, there would only have to be 5 out of the 6 people that he had to try to analyze and put a case on. If you knew 5 out of the 6 people that you did put a case on, it's not hard to figure out who you forgot. He forgot Ham. I feel pretty strongly that Westbrook and Ham are our two scum, though Westbrook (and infamous before him) are still the most scummy out of our whole group.

Obviously this is up for dispute, but it seemed to me to be about the most logical theory that fit the facts, and the thoughts I had in my head.

Finally, at something a bit more recent than day1, (I kinda rushed through d2, though much of it is kinda weird and I'll try to come back to it). In post 474 from Ham, I thought that your definition wasn't right. (it's regarding the regret from GIEFF and lack thereof from ham). Regret is wishing something didn't happen, even if you'd do it over again if you were put in the same position. Knowing now that we lynched an innocent townie, I regret that it came to that, as I'd much rather have lynched a mafia. Were most of our minds completely made up? Probably not as much as it could be, but close enough that it'd probably happen the same way given the information at the time. However, like I said, knowing that he was truthful in his claim of vanilla townie, and he flat out stated it (not like we could really prove him wrong as a whole without possibly screwing any power roles, and not getting anywhere as far as finding the real bad guys) I regret that we could not have come to a better solution.

Finally, since I'm firmly of the belief that inf/Westbrook is the scummiest of all the people we have left, I will

Vote: Westbrook_Owns_U

Wow I'm burnt out. I have more to say, but I need to take a little break. Hopefully I won't be talking to a wall anymore, and we can have some dialog about anything I might have brought up, and the current issues revolving around the game.

[hasdgfas]

VOTE COUNT:

Xtoxm(2): GIEFF, ClockworkRuse
ClockworkRuse(1): Xtoxm
Westbrook_Owns_U(1): Amished


Not Voting: CarnCarn, Westbrook_Owns_U, hambargarz
7 alive, 4 to lynch