Wheel of Time Mafia: Rip in the Pattern (GAME OVER)

[Cyberbob]

it was trying to cast what I said in an

incredibly

scummy light.

ho ho ho

[fuzzylightning]

Honestly, I am starting to wonder what Shadow Knight is playing at right now, he seems very transfixed on the Aes Sedai and I don't know what he is trying to accomplish at this time.

FoS: Shadow Knight

. What are you hoping to accomplish with all this talk of AS?

The mini should be taken into account for very little in this game, because if you look in the large theme ideas thread, Kinetic stated that he was going to change things around.

[Kinetic]

I was visiting the riverfront this evening and I came upon a queer sight. Several tents were set up, yet in no particular order or reason. And none of the people who milled around the area looked like mercenaries or sellswords. On the contrary many of them looked like camp followers.

Who are all these people?

- From the Journal of Jardor Calol

MrBuddyLee replaces TuckingFypo as of this post.

The Second Vote Count

1. (0) Mr. Flay -
   
2. (0) Isacc -
   
3. (0) fuzzylightning -
   
4. (2)
   MacavityLock - hasdgfas, Shadow Knight
   
5. (0) Seraphim -
   
6. (0) julienvonwolfe -
   
7. (1)
   Cyberbob - MacavityLock
   
8. (0) Kairyuu -
   
9. (1)
   Tenchi - Sajin
   
10. (0) Albert B. Rampage -
    
11. (0) armlx -
    
12. (0) Slicey -
    
13. (2)
    Mastermind of Sin - Mr. Flay, Mufasa
    
14. (0) Tuberkulos -
    
15. (0) Moratorium -
    
16. (2)
    Shadow Knight - Seraphim, Faraday
    
17. (0) Mufasa -
    
18. (1)
    SpyreX - Mastermind of Sin
    
19. (0) xxFabianxx -
    
20. (0) Myndrunner -
    
21. (0) Faraday -
    
22. (0) Sajin -
    
23. (1)
    hasdgfas - fuzzylightning
    
24. (0) Knights of Cydonia -
    
25. (0) MrBuddyLee -
    
26. (0) Kison -

Votes Required to Lynch:

14

Not Voting (16): Isacc, julienvonwolfe, Cyberbob, Kairyuu, Tenchi, Albert B. Rampage, armlx, Slicey, Tuberkulos, Moratorium, SpyreX, xxFabianxx, Myndrunner, Knights of Cydonia, MrBuddyLee, Kison

FoS Count

1. (0) Mr. Flay -
   
2. (0) Isacc -
   
3. (0) fuzzylightning -
   
4. (2)
   MacavityLock - Seraphim, Mr. Flay
   
5. (0) Seraphim -
   
6. (0) julienvonwolfe -
   
7. (0) Cyberbob -
   
8. (0) Kairyuu -
   
9. (0) Tenchi -
   
10. (0) Albert B. Rampage -
    
11. (0) armlx -
    
12. (0) Slicey -
    
13. (0) Mastermind of Sin -
    
14. (0) Tuberkulos -
    
15. (0) Moratorium -
    
16. (2)
    Shadow Knight - Cyberbob, fuzzylightning
    
17. (0) Mufasa -
    
18. (0) SpyreX -
    
19. (0) xxFabianxx -
    
20. (0) Myndrunner -
    
21. (0) Faraday -
    
22. (0) Sajin -
    
23. (0) hasdgfas -
    
24. (0) Knights of Cydonia -
    
25. (0) MrBuddyLee -
    
26. (0) Kison -

Not FoSing (22): Isacc, MacavityLock, julienvonwolfe, Kairyuu, Tenchi, Albert B. Rampage, armlx, Slicey, Mastermind of Sin, Tuberkulos, Moratorium, Shadow Knight, Mufasa, SpyreX, xxFabianxx, Myndrunner, Faraday, Sajin, hasdgfas, Knights of Cydonia, Tucking Fypo, Kison

Current Deadline:

May 15, 2009 at ~11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4)

First Mod Deadline Review:

May 1, 2009 at ~11:59 PM EDT (GMT -4)

[Knight of Cydonia]

This is very interesting. Already, we seem to have a split based on whether Aes Sedai should out themselves, which I find interesting, given that all we have as evidence that Aes Sedai may be in this game is the fact that they were in the Mini - which, as Kinetic has already pointed out, this game is intentionally different to. I would be entirely unsurprised if there were other pro-town powers than Aes Sedai, for starters - I believe Rand, Mat, and Perrin (?) are known as Ta'veren, and they certainly aren't Aes Sedai, but the Pattern revolves around them, for example. Shadow Knight's eagerness to get Aes Sedai out suggests that his role may have something we town players do not... such as an implicit instruction to kill all/certain Aes Sedai?

FoS: Shadow Knight

for now, while I ponder further.

[Faraday]

Koc, this game is set after Lews Therrin and the 100 compansions carried out the sealing of the bore, but it's also well before Rand's story begins.

Also where do you get Shadow Knight as being

eager

to out any Aes Sedai. His posts seem to be the opposite of this.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Ugh - sorry, I got a killer headache, little loopy on painkillers right now. I was thinking of Shadow Knight while typing about the people trying to get everyone to repeat that phrase.

[/b]unFoS: Shadow Knight[/b]

But the point still stands - pushing for Aes Sedai outing when there is no proof yet they exist is pointless, and scummy regardless of whether or not they exist.

Also - the game being before Rand's story =/= no possibility of Ta'veren or other pro-town power roles. Ta'veren are people who the Pattern revolves around - not necessarily channellers of

saidin

, just important people who strange things happen around, for example - they could easily exist. It's also possible we could have male channellers who might go insane (i.e. switch allegiances) after a certain time, or any number and manner of other people who are affected by the Pattern or

saidin

in some way, without being Aes Sedai.

[Knight of Cydonia]

Also - I suck at different BBcodes for different forums.

[Seraphim]

I suggest less role and set-up speculation and more scumhunting.

Shadow Knight, I have no idea why you're so panicked. No one should suggest that the Aes Sedai massclaim nor should the town force any players to make statements that out power roles.

The scum know who the other scum are, and because of that it isn't difficult for them to work out who the Aes Sedai are through process of elimination if people are asked to tell the truth.
IF we must force people to answer questions, we need to stop asking stupid questions like "Are you scum?".

I'm not smart enough to come up with decent questions though...

I couldn't tell you why, but this post seems to reek to me of "Oh, shit, I'm scum, quick, come up with something town to say without implicating myself!" I want to hear more from Fabian, please.

ML, you've gone down in suspicion but I still think making the statement is pointless. Shadow Knight reeks to me right now as he seems to be pushing a bullshit attack against ML, saying that saying we're town is somehow anti-town...

The only thing that asking the entire town to say a certain phrase will accomplish is to out any Aes Sedai that are here.

Not really. The point being made is that this probably won't actually out anyone.

This is not only a waste of the town's time, it can lead to outing town power roles while learning nothing about the scum. This is inherantly anti-town.

Agreed on the first part but I seriously don't see how this will out power roles. You also seem VERY sure that the scum can all lie.

Its rather simple. Just because the sentence NOW doesn't out power roles or Aes Sedai, it doesn't mean that a sentence in the future won't. Starting down this path of "lets make everyone say the same thing" will only out the people who can't lie (Aes Sedai) later. How can you not see that?

This point is actually valid and I understand your concern. However, it's extremely unlikely that the town will intentionally try to out the Aes Sedai. This is simply to out roles that may not be town and cannot lie.

@Seraphim- and you don't think it will be a little obvious when players start side-stepping questions?

Read the books, man. Aes Sedai are very sneaky.

I feel like you don't understand possible consequences of the whole town saying a certain phrase. Either that or you want them to.

This isn't a Tar game. I don't expect to be fucked over by saying that we're all town unless you can think of a flavor reason. I frankly can't think of any sort of role that would win in that fashion...

[hasdgfas]

I feel like you don't understand possible consequences of the whole town saying a certain phrase. Either that or you want them to.

This isn't a Tar game. I don't expect to be fucked over by saying that we're all town unless you can think of a flavor reason. I frankly can't think of any sort of role that would win in that fashion...

It may not be a Tar game, but Kinetic did steal Tar's ruleset, which gives me pause. Plus, if this was tried in the first game, I'd expect Kinetic would think of some way to mess people up.

[Seraphim]

I feel like you don't understand possible consequences of the whole town saying a certain phrase. Either that or you want them to.

This isn't a Tar game. I don't expect to be fucked over by saying that we're all town unless you can think of a flavor reason. I frankly can't think of any sort of role that would win in that fashion...

It may not be a Tar game, but Kinetic did steal Tar's ruleset, which gives me pause. Plus, if this was tried in the first game, I'd expect Kinetic would think of some way to mess people up.

Yes, it was tried, and it didn't work. Why would he add something to screw people up with something that didn't work last time?

I just think this kind of speculation is pointless unless you can come up with a flavor reason for this. Less speculation and more scumhunting please.

[hasdgfas]

@Flay- In retrospect, the vote on you should have been a FOS (which I would have removed once you posted 89. My vote on Macavity is for the exact same reason you're FOSing him.

And just to play along. I have the town win condition and can't win any other way that I know of.

Why play along just after you voted him for it?

Referring to the arguments pre-game, I didn't feel comfortable with people talking before, I think it only leads to people having bias before the game even kicked off.

But technically, hasn't the game started as soon as role PMs are sent out, because you then play your role in the thread, regardless of whether or not it had "officially started"?
[quote"fabian"]We must have Aes Sedai in this game, partly because they were in the mini for testing and because their rules were listed in this game.

The scum know who the other scum are, and because of that it isn't difficult for them to work out who the Aes Sedai are through process of elimination if people are asked to tell the truth.
IF we must force people to answer questions, we need to stop asking stupid questions like "Are you scum?".

I'm not smart enough to come up with decent questions though...[/quote]
I feel like this is saying nothing, and simply "posting to post"

[Kison]

It's been a good three years or so since I've read any of the books in depth, but if I recall correctly, the 'bad' Aes Sedai were referred to as the Black Ajah, and were not bound by the Three Oaths, presumably meaning they were able to lie unless forced to swear them again. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming I'm right, MackavityLock's idea indeed comes across as a waste of time and distracting because the only people who this seems designed to 'catch' would not be hindered by the utterance of a false statement.

@MacavityLock: I know you've rescinded, but who did you hope to catch with this, and

how

did you hope for that to happen?

Honestly, I am starting to wonder what Shadow Knight is playing at right now, he seems very transfixed on the Aes Sedai and I don't know what he is trying to accomplish at this time.

FoS: Shadow Knight

. What are you hoping to accomplish with all this talk of AS?

The mini should be taken into account for very little in this game, because if you look in the large theme ideas thread, Kinetic stated that he was going to change things around.

Vote: fuzzylightning

Are you voting for Shadow Knight for anything besides that he is talking about Aes Sedai? That appears to be the subject around which the game is revolving right now, so why single him out?

[MacavityLock]

@MacavityLock: I know you've rescinded, but who did you hope to catch with this, and

how

did you hope for that to happen?

Given Van Damien's role from last game (which tl;dr was a town role which may have gone insane), I didn't think it was out of the realm of possibility that there was a role bound by the no-lying post restriction that currently has a town win cond but may not in the future. If someone refused to say the second part of the sentence ("I am not aware of any circumstance in which I do not win with town."), that would be an indication that we'd probably need to either immediately or eventually get rid of them.

I completely understand people saying it's pointless. It probably is/was. Having seen enough serious objections that they're probably not all from scum, I'm fine with not doing this.

[Kairyuu]

This game seems to have started without me noticing. Guess there's a first time for everything.

Setup speculation early D1 in a closed setup = terrible idea. It helps no one but the scum.

Also,

vote: Shadowknight

, since the apparent strong hesitation to go along with ML's plan has some interesting implications.

[Cyberbob]

@MacavityLock: I know you've rescinded, but who did you hope to catch with this, and

how

did you hope for that to happen?

Given Van Damien's role from last game (which tl;dr was a town role which may have gone insane), I didn't think it was out of the realm of possibility that there was a role bound by the no-lying post restriction that currently has a town win cond but may not in the future. If someone refused to say the second part of the sentence ("I am not aware of any circumstance in which I do not win with town."), that would be an indication that we'd probably need to either immediately or eventually get rid of them.

You do realise that Van Damien's role didn't have anything about not being able to lie, yes?

[xxFabianxx]

I do think it can only harm the game if people come in with a dislike towards a certain player simply for something as simple as a disagrement about playstyle.
WIt's a valid point, we're all human and we have bias, and I don't think we should have been allowed to speak before the game started, that's why I didn't, and I think what I said before is a valid point, not about this game but about mafia games in general.

I apologise for being vague before when I said we should be more clear with our questions, but I did actually have a point about the questions, I just failed to convey it.
What I was hinting at was the age old riddle.

"You stand at a fork in the road. Next to each of the two forks, there stands a guard. You know the following things: 1. One path leads to Paradise, the other to Death.
One of the two guards always tells the truth, and the other guard always lies.
Unfortunately, it is impossible for you to distinguish between the two guards.
You may ask one question to one guard. What do you ask?

I'm honestly not sure how to ask the question in this situation, but if we have a group who can't lie and a group who lie, we can use this, right?

I wasn't making a filler post, I can't figure out what the question would be, but I do know that with some smarts it could be effective.

[MacavityLock]

You do realise that Van Damien's role didn't have anything about not being able to lie, yes?

Yes, but I can also extrapolate.

[Cyberbob]

Yes, but I can also extrapolate.

To what? Men who have taken the Three Oaths? Female channelers destined to go insane?

Help me out here because you aren't making any sense at the moment. Neither is Fabian but I'm not even going to think about getting into that mess of a post.

[MacavityLock]

Yes, but I can also extrapolate.

To what? Men who have taken the Three Oaths? Female channelers destined to go insane?

What does it matter? I don't know exactly what the flavor would have to be, but is it really so hard to believe that such a thing might exist given what we saw in the mini? I doubt it too but again, a tiny chance of finding something is still a chance of finding something.

[xxFabianxx]

Actually I think it makes perfect sense.

[MacavityLock]

I'm honestly not sure how to ask the question in this situation, but if we have a group who can't lie and a group who lie, we can use this, right?

No one in this game is ever forced to lie. Therefore, this will not work.

[Cyberbob]

Yes, but I can also extrapolate.

To what? Men who have taken the Three Oaths? Female channelers destined to go insane?

What does it matter? I don't know exactly what the flavor would have to be, but is it really so hard to believe that such a thing might exist given what we saw in the mini? I doubt it too but again, a tiny chance of finding something is still a chance of finding something.

Yes, because those roles are part of the flavour. Kinetic didn't just throw them in because he made them up off the top of his head.

[MacavityLock]

Yes, because those roles are part of the flavour. Kinetic didn't just throw them in because he made them up off the top of his head.

Minor spoiler alert for late WoT books. Minor because

no one

knows the deal:

Verin Sedai. That's what I'm afraid of.

[Tenchi]

"You stand at a fork in the road. Next to each of the two forks, there stands a guard. You know the following things: 1. One path leads to Paradise, the other to Death.
One of the two guards always tells the truth, and the other guard always lies.
Unfortunately, it is impossible for you to distinguish between the two guards.
You may ask one question to one guard. What do you ask?

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0327.html

In other words: Let's keep the us keep the "questioning trick" at the back of our heads as another strategy. What we should do is scum hunt as usual, apply the usual pressure, then see if somebody lies. Actually, just making people talk "normally" is the only way we can truly catch somebody in a lie.

[xxFabianxx]

It wasn't a mess of a post, it actually makes sense, Cyberbob.
Why?
Aes Sedai have to tell the truth and darkfriends have to lie, so we can use that to our advantage.