Mini 818 - Isacc's Sexy Mafia - Not-so-sexily Mod Abandoned

[Kairyuu]

Mmk. Before I get to responding to everyone I need to point out something. llama came up with a very good idea, that you use me as your last mislynch before lylo. Assuming three scum means we have two mislynches before lylo, so here is my plan:

We lynch Hero today based on my read. If he's scum, we reevaluate this whole thing again on D2. If he's town, then I'm the D2 lynch, simple as that. I am willing to risk myself on this read. Alternately, if we have a vig, they could shoot me tonight so that you guys don't have to waste a Day lynching me if I'm wrong. Of course, if I'm right and the vig still shoots me then I'm gonna be pissed. Also note that if there is a vig then they should only shoot once total regardless of any other factors. Any more than one shot by a vig takes away one of our available mislynches if it hits town.

Time to analyze the above plan.

If I'm scum, this is bad for me, because it essentially guarentees that I will die unless Hero is my scumbuddy, and since I'm still at high risk for dying even if I am right I would have to say that it would be a bad move to give him up if we were scum together. Also, if Hero ISN'T my scumbuddy, and I'm feeding a townie to the sharks, then I will be auto-killed before N2, which ends up being a 1 for 1 tradeoff, which heavily benefits town.

If I'm town, this is risky, but optimal play. Given the option to die D1 and then have my gambit ignored or to have a chance to see what I gleaned from it, the best play on my part is to take the read I'm most confident in and risk everything in an all-or-nothing gamble. If I'm right then it pays off, and if I'm wrong then, well, I woulda died anyway.

There is literally no reason that I can see to oppose this plan. If you think I'm scum and wrong, then this gives you the chance to lynch me if I am. If you think I'm town and wrong, then meh, try to oppose my lynch D2. If you think I'm town and right then this gives you a good opportunity to check your reads with a lynch. If you think I'm scum and right, then hey, under your assumption I'm handing you two scum, you should be happy. Of course, there are people who would want to oppose the plan. Those people being the scum among the players on my list, because they see me surviving and them dying if my plan is followed.

Any objections? We lynch Hero today and then initiate the rest of the plan depending on the flip.

[Hero764]

Why do we need to follow this plan? We're barely out of the RVS, whether or not you think I was serious in my posts, I hardly think any of it is lynch worthy. Kairyuu, assuming you're town, you're essentially asking the town to lynch two townies in a row. Why don't we do it the old fashioned way, find out who's scummy, and not worry about tomorrow? Setting up to let yourself be lynched in the event that I'm townie only doubles the negatives.

Also, I don't like how you're showing the good sides for scum.

This could also be a stupid ploy to remove suspicion for yourself. Maybe you're hoping that while the town won't follow through with the plan, they'll see you as obvtown thinking "oh he came up with that great plan that would be bad for him if he's scum!"

Talking about risking yourself also gives me bad vibes. If you're town, killing you doesn't just hurt you, it hurts the entire town. You're trying to make yourself seem more townish by saying that.

[sideney]

Any objections? We lynch Hero today and then initiate the rest of the plan depending on the flip.

I subscribe the "lynch Hero764 D1, then lynch Kairyuu D2 also if Hero764 flip scum" plan.
However don't you think that playing like this you are giving to scum two very convenient place to land their vote without exposing them too much?
I'm placing my vote to Hero764, but i don't think to be much suspect myself.Or not?

Unvote
Vote:Hero764

[Kairyuu]

@Hero:

We're barely out of the RVS

You keep saying this, and it keeps bothering me greatly. The RVS either is or isn't. There is no "barely." Once it's over, it's over. You are attempting to retroactively extend it past the point where the discussion became serious in an attempt to mask your behavior as being made in jest in the RVS. This doesn't fly with me, and I fully intend to add you to the list of scum who thought they could get away with extending the RVS while I was around.

I hardly think any of it is lynch worthy

That's not your call to make. Either defend or concede. Don't shrug it off as not lynch-worthy. It is a series of serious accusations that need to be addressed, and calling your posts jokes doesn't cut it.

Kairyuu, assuming you're town, you're essentially asking the town to lynch two townies in a row.

You're voting me still. Do you think I'm town? If you are town and you think I'm scum, then this is a 1 for 1 trade in your eyes, which is a good one. However, if you think I'm town, then why try to get me lynched in the first place? Your actions and your words do not add up.

Why don't we do it the old fashioned way, find out who's scummy, and not worry about tomorrow?

This reads strongly as scum who just realized that he's going down without some serious backpedaling.

Setting up to let yourself be lynched in the event that I'm townie only doubles the negatives.

1. Go big or go home.

2. I might have believed this to be sincere if you had accompanied it with an unvote, but you didn't. You appear to be perfectly content to lynch me now and hope to slide right back under the radar once I'm dead.

Also, I don't like how you're showing the good sides for scum.

Umm. I do believe that I pointed out that there ARE no good sides for scum.

This could also be a stupid ploy to remove suspicion for yourself. Maybe you're hoping that while the town won't follow through with the plan, they'll see you as obvtown thinking "oh he came up with that great plan that would be bad for him if he's scum!"

Now here's the point where, after getting worried and half-pleading to be spared, you change your tune and try to sling some mud.

Talking about risking yourself also gives me bad vibes. If you're town, killing you doesn't just hurt you, it hurts the entire town. You're trying to make yourself seem more townish by saying that.

I never have and never will care about how pro-town I look except as scum. I have always been perfectly willing to get my hands dirty to catch scum. Gambits almost never work out exactly right, and I always plan for that when designing them. This gambit was so highly risky that I had to be VERY sure before I pulled it that I could make it work somehow and catch the scum within a page or two of pulling it. Otherwise I would have no choice but to eat a D1 lynch, which I've never done before.

I said it before and I'll say it again. If I'm wrong then I need to be lynched or shot. I'm confident enough in my reads that I'll take that risk though. All or nothing gambles are fun for me.

@Sideney:

I subscribe the "lynch Hero764 D1, then lynch Kairyuu D2 also if Hero764 flip scum" plan.

I don't. I subscribe to the "lynch Hero D1, then lynch Kairyuu D2 if Hero flips TOWN" plan.

However don't you think that playing like this you are giving to scum two very convenient place to land their vote without exposing them too much?

This will only be the case if I'm wrong. If I'm right then the scum can ether avoid the wagon or bus, and bussing just makes the lynch happen faster.

I'm placing my vote to Hero764, but i don't think to be much suspect myself.Or not?

I don't even know what you're trying to say there.

[sideney]

@Kairyuu: I was trying to explain that even if i had been scum i would have placed the vote on Hero764, without looking suspect, in my opinion.

[Hero764]

This is ridiculous. Anything I say you brush off as scummy, you're not even considering that I'm townie. Almost the entire game you've been under the assumption that I'm scum based on a few non serious posts.

You keep saying this, and it keeps bothering me greatly. The RVS either is or isn't. There is no "barely." Once it's over, it's over. You are attempting to retroactively extend it past the point where the discussion became serious in an attempt to mask your behavior as being made in jest in the RVS. This doesn't fly with me, and I fully intend to add you to the list of scum who thought they could get away with extending the RVS while I was around.

There is no 'definite' time when the RVS ends, that's stupid. It gradually gets more and more serious. And the reason I said 'barely' was the show to you how early in day 1 it was, and that there's really no reason to be lynching someone this early.

That's not your call to make. Either defend or concede. Don't shrug it off as not lynch-worthy. It is a series of serious accusations that need to be addressed, and calling your posts jokes doesn't cut it.

Uhh, I have been defending myself.

You're voting me still. Do you think I'm town? If you are town and you think I'm scum, then this is a 1 for 1 trade in your eyes, which is a good one. However, if you think I'm town, then why try to get me lynched in the first place? Your actions and your words do not add up.

I was showing how your plan isn't really as pro-town as you make it seem, because you're arguing that you're also a townie, and in your eyes isn't really that pro-town. ie: You shouldn't be arguing for your own plan because in your eyes it hurts the town, which is why I think you're probably scum making this plan to seem more pro-town, when really it would make no sense for you to push it.

This reads strongly as scum who just realized that he's going down without some serious backpedaling.

How?

1. Go big or go home.

2. I might have believed this to be sincere if you had accompanied it with an unvote, but you didn't. You appear to be perfectly content to lynch me now and hope to slide right back under the radar once I'm dead.

1. There's no reason to take gambles, especially this early on day 1.

2. I explained this above.

Umm. I do believe that I pointed out that there ARE no good sides for scum.

I was referring to this:

If you think I'm scum and wrong, then this gives you the chance to lynch me if I am.

If you think I'm town and wrong, then meh, try to oppose my lynch D2. If you think I'm town and right then this gives you a good opportunity to check your reads with a lynch.

If you think I'm scum and right, then hey, under your assumption I'm handing you two scum, you should be happy.

Now here's the point where, after getting worried and half-pleading to be spared, you change your tune and try to sling some mud.

I like how you completely avoid defending against the accusation.

I never have and never will care about how pro-town I look except as scum. I have always been perfectly willing to get my hands dirty to catch scum. Gambits almost never work out exactly right, and I always plan for that when designing them. This gambit was so highly risky that I had to be VERY sure before I pulled it that I could make it work somehow and catch the scum within a page or two of pulling it. Otherwise I would have no choice but to eat a D1 lynch, which I've never done before.

I said it before and I'll say it again. If I'm wrong then I need to be lynched or shot. I'm confident enough in my reads that I'll take that risk though. All or nothing gambles are fun for me.

All or nothing gambles will usually hurt the town. There's absolutely to take one, especially this early in the game. Saying you need to be lynched or shot is either incredibly anti-town or admitting to being scum.

And where the HELL do you get off thinking you can catch scum within a page or two?

[Kreriov]

Wow.
Rant on

INCLUDE NAMES IN YOUR DAMN QUOTE TAGS.

Rant off

@Don - looking for people that did not get on the Kairyuu wagon does not work. In Kitty's case it is worse than that because she was V/LA for most of the time when she would have had the opportunity to get on it. I am in the same boat might be why I noticed this fact. I rarely have time to participate on weekends.

@Kairyuu - You are so full of crap. I am not sure what you expected, but your initial post could not possibly be interpreted as a serious claim. The contradictions and logically impossible situations make it either so stupid as to be meaningless or a joke. It is only your later insistence that it is a serious claim that I consider valid. THAT I might consider a serious claim. Your logic in post 100 is a bit off. You missed night kills and action contingency plans. If the cop is killed tonight, you have to die D2 regardless of how Hero flips just to make sure you are not bussing your scumbuddy. I also totally disagree that you should be the last ml. The sooner we resolve your status and the more time we have to analyze the fall out, the better. I also disagree with a vig killing you. Vigs should NEVER use their night kill unless they are absolutely certain their target is scum OR there is no other choise, i.e. there is a CC fight and we lynch the wrong guy or we are in some sort of LYLO and a scum must die in the night to reach the next day.)

Finally, I will point out the single biggest problem with Kairyuu's plan. We HAVE to lynch Kairyuu if Hero is not scum. No 'Well, he risked being lynched D1 and agreed to be lynched D2 , so he must be townie' bullshit. I really do feel like Kairyuu is town, even if a bit whacked. We simply cannot risk otherwise if Hero turns up town.

Well, here goes...

Unvote

Vote: Hero764

[Hero764]

Kreriov, why vote me? Do you find me lynch-worthy? Or are you just following Kairyuu's plan? Why?

[DraketheFake]

Read the post you just made again. If you can't see that you make the assumption that you are intelligent and I am stupid then you need to go get your head examined.

Well yes, I'm obviously baiting you. But my assumption is not that you're stupid but rather that you're making a sub-optimal play out of boredom/cockiness/stubbornness/whatever your reason might be. You abject refusal to even consider that Hero might be town, and your willingness to be the "sacrificial lamb" in this experiment, make me think that testing the ability of this "gambit" you've run is more important to you than actually playing in a manner that benefits the town. Does that make your play anti-town? I think it does. Does it make you scum? Not hardly. But the fact remains that the boldest player is the one that doesn't have to die first. Your alignment and Hero's have nothing to do with each other because again, as I've said, there is no scummy reaction to another player in the game claiming scum. There's no meta to be gained from reactions because it's such a boneheaded thing for somebody to do and then pretend was serious. Hero could have counterclaimed scum and voted for himself and I'd still take it with a grain of salt, but all he did was finally react to your "gambit."

Any objections? We lynch Hero today and then initiate the rest of the plan depending on the flip.

I subscribe the "lynch Hero764 D1, then lynch Kairyuu D2 also if Hero764 flip scum" plan.

However don't you think that playing like this you are giving to scum two very convenient place to land their vote without exposing them too much?

I'm placing my vote to Hero764, but i don't think to be much suspect myself.Or not?

Unvote
Vote:Hero764

In the middle of this post sideney makes an excellent point about your plan: unless both you and Hero are, in fact, scum, the scum are going to be all over this plan like white on rice, in particular if you're wrong. It's going to be rather difficult to figure out who that follows your plan is a townie and who's a bussing scum since your plan is so set in stone and there hasn't been a huge shift in either direction yet, and on the off chance that you're wrong about Hero AND you're a townie yourself you'll have dug the town in to a very deep hole without any real leads on the scum end. The fact that sideney brings this up and proceeds to vote Hero anyway is what really concerns me. I'm having trouble parsing out the broken English of the phrase right before the vote, but either he's saying he doesn't much suspect Hero himself - in which case his vote is even worse - or that he doesn't want to be much a suspect himself for following you - in which case his vote is even worse.

Unvote, Vote: sideney

for now.

[DraketheFake]

Hahaha wow, and then Kreriov did it?

You know what would help us find out Kairyuu's alignment better than lynching Hero? Lynching Kairyuu. And then we probably wouldn't even have to lynch Hero, since their alignments, as with any two random players in a game where one claims scum and then goes off on the furthest branch, are certain to be completely independent of one another.

I agree with everything you said about Kairyuu, Kreriov, except for the vig comment, but that's a difference of playstyle. Why would you follow it up with a vote for Hero? Do you even think there's a chance he's scum? Based on what? How are people falling for this?

[sideney]

@DraketheFake: I was trying to strengthen my own statement "However don't you think that playing like this you are giving to scum two very convenient place to land their vote without exposing them too much?" saying that even if i'm voting Hero764 i can't look too much suspect due the fact the road was draw by Kairyuu's plan. Sorry for my bad english.

However Kreriov come out from nowhere and place is vote on Hero764 i found that very scummy, what do you think Kairyuu?

Fos Kreriov

[DraketheFake]

Kreriov did the exact same thing that you did, only without the qualifier that it shouldn't make him look scummy. Literally the only difference between your two votes is that you said "My vote isn't scummy." And why are you deferring to Kairyuu? Believe it or not, he isn't actually our team leader or anything: you're free to vote whoever you find scummy at any time. If I hadn't already voted you, I'd have punctuated my point by voting for you.

[sideney]

Kreriov did the exact same thing that you did, only without the qualifier that it shouldn't make him look scummy. Literally the only difference between your two votes is that you said "My vote isn't scummy." And why are you deferring to Kairyuu? Believe it or not, he isn't actually our team leader or anything: you're free to vote whoever you find scummy at any time. If I hadn't already voted you, I'd have punctuated my point by voting for you.

I don't have said that

my

vote isn't scummy, i have said that almost all votes on Hero764 don't look much scummy. However when i have seen Kreriov come out from page 1 and place the vote with is first serious post he looks suspect.

[Kreriov]

@sideney - Not out of nowhere. Maybe next time I should post the utterly useless 'I am reading the thread' active lurker mantra, that way when I make a decision and post after my usual weekend hiatus it will not be so easy for you to sling mud?

@Hero - Yes, I am following Kairyuu's plan. Not only that, but I have tried my best to make it even harder to deviate from his plan should it succeed.

[Hero764]

@Hero - Yes, I am following Kairyuu's plan. Not only that, but I have tried my best to make it even harder to deviate from his plan should it succeed.

You didn't answer why. Why are you following Kairyuu's plan?

[don_johnson]

hm.

hero: INCLUDE NAMES IN YOUR QUOTE TAGS. PLEASE.

vote: kreriov

much scummier than sid. if we are going to make this a choice between hero or kai, i'll be voting kai.

[Kreriov]

@don - actually, I agree with you. Hero to. I never had a chance to vote for Kairyuu. The wagon had dissipated by this morning. This whole gambit thing and the constant 'look at my meta' bullshit really bothers. I think it is vital we determine Kairyuu's alignment as soon as possible. Locking in Kairyuu's plan seems to be the best way to do that at this time. The bonus is that there is indeed some merit to the case against Hero. If we get a scum on the way to finding out Kairyuu's alignment once and for all, that is just gravy.

[Hero764]

The bonus is that there is indeed some merit to the case against Hero.

You still haven't explained this.

[Hero764]

EBWOP: Sorry don, I forgot again =P

[DraketheFake]

If we get a scum on the way to finding out Kairyuu's alignment once and for all, that is just gravy.

Oh come on Kreriov, you're not this dumb.

Unvote, Vote: Kreriov

.

If you wanted to know Kairyuu's alignment, you'd be voting for him. This reeks of clinging to a badly-thought-out chain lynch, which makes me think you probably already have an inkling of what we're going to find out.

[Kreriov]

@Hero - Do you really need me to reiterate everything Kairyuu has said in his case against you?
-You initially voted for Kairyuu with no reason. You clearly say later on that you thought his initial post was a joke and still sort of think so an yet you STILL vote for him.
-You keep arguing about whether or not RVS is over. Either you do or do not want your votes to be considered serious. Pick one. The wishy-washyness is suspicious. And if your first vote was no serious, why the hell you would place a third vote on someone in RVS is beyond me.
-Kairyuu, if town, is correct in how his gambit should work. You fell for it. You tried to avoid the issue and only when pressed did you suddenly decide Kairyuu was scum. (Basically this makes you target number 1 if Kairyuu flips town, so why not get it out of the way now.)
-You try to pass off accusations of scummyness as jokes.

Do I need to go on? it is very difficult to go through Kairyuu's posts when he doesn't include names in his quote tags, but i can. The point is, you tried to avoid discussion or judgement on Kairyuu's gambit and alignment, just as Kairyuu posits in his gambit claim. So I think that either Kairyuu's gambit has caught scum, you, or Kairyuu is a scum. Drake will probably point out that both you and Kairyuu could be town. That is true, but that is why I want to determine Kairyuu's alignment. I really do not mind going through you to do it.

[Kreriov]

@Drake - I have no problem voting for Kairyuu at all. I just do not see his lynch happening. All the arguing and this stupid gambit just make me not really care. It doesn't matter if you lynch me, Hero, whomever. No matter who is lynched, we will still have to do something about determining Kairyuu's alignment. If you are unwilling to do it right now, fine. Just figure out a way to do it ASAP. Putting it off only worsens the problem.

[Hero764]

@Hero - Do you really need me to reiterate everything Kairyuu has said in his case against you?

No I wanted you to explain how any of the reasons Kairyuu made were good ones.

-You initially voted for Kairyuu with no reason. You clearly say later on that you thought his initial post was a joke and still sort of think so an yet you STILL vote for him.
-You keep arguing about whether or not RVS is over. Either you do or do not want your votes to be considered serious. Pick one. The wishy-washyness is suspicious. And if your first vote was no serious, why the hell you would place a third vote on someone in RVS is beyond me.
-Kairyuu, if town, is correct in how his gambit should work. You fell for it. You tried to avoid the issue and only when pressed did you suddenly decide Kairyuu was scum. (Basically this makes you target number 1 if Kairyuu flips town, so why not get it out of the way now.)
-You try to pass off accusations of scummyness as jokes.

-So? Joke posts usually get joke votes.
-When did I argue about the RVS being over? I know its over, never said anything to the contrary. My vote on Kairyuu IS serious, just not when I first made it. I don't see what's scummy about a bandwagon in the RVS, especially when Kairyuu was asking for it.
-I fell for it? Please explain.
-Because that's what they were.

Do I need to go on? it is very difficult to go through Kairyuu's posts when he doesn't include names in his quote tags, but i can. The point is, you tried to avoid discussion or judgement on Kairyuu's gambit and alignment, just as Kairyuu posits in his gambit claim. So I think that either Kairyuu's gambit has caught scum, you, or Kairyuu is a scum. Drake will probably point out that both you and Kairyuu could be town. That is true, but that is why I want to determine Kairyuu's alignment. I really do not mind going through you to do it.

Why should we lynch me before Kairyuu?

[Kreriov]

@Hero - We probably SHOULDN'T lynch you before Kairyuu, but you can count, can't you? IF you get lynched and flip town, and probably even if not, Kairyuu is next. I want to get that set in concrete. Kairyuu wanted to play his stupid gambit, well, fine. Play it out completely. Either completely abandon it or follow through on it completely, that is all I am doing.

[Hero764]

@Hero - We probably SHOULDN'T lynch you before Kairyuu, but you can count, can't you? IF you get lynched and flip town, and probably even if not, Kairyuu is next. I want to get that set in concrete. Kairyuu wanted to play his stupid gambit, well, fine. Play it out completely. Either completely abandon it or follow through on it completely, that is all I am doing.

How could that possibly be good for town? Why are you so determined to get me lynched before Kairyuu, especially if you admit we shouldn't do that? Just to follow through with a gambit? There's no pro-town reason to do that.

FoS: Kreriov