In post 88, Deltabreedy wrote:
Those of you with votes on me in particular, I'd encourage you to commit to game solving and telling me why it's worth eliminating me for calling out something I find scummy.
your reasons for your votes sounded nonsensical and contrived
In post 88, Deltabreedy wrote:
I'm a bit miffed at the focus on mechanical solving in D1 over plain old scumhunting - I do genuinely feel like Merlyn has something to hide on this because of how they described Kowah's actions as Not Scum Indicative, rather than intimating that it isn't certain.
Clearing someone of scumhood through purely meta reeds less than 100 posts into the game just doesn't scream town so my vote is on Merlyn for now.
okay actually I like this excerpt. I still don't like Delta getting into the weeds with not saying probably but I can forgive that since Delta seems to be saying Merlyn landed on that townread too easily which is reasonable and so like I can see Delta just getting overly granular here. This shows a thought process that makes sense for town to have (whereas Delta's previous posts focused primarily on the supposed absolute certainty)
In post 88, Deltabreedy wrote:
Those of you with votes on me in particular, I'd encourage you to commit to game solving and telling me why it's worth eliminating me for calling out something I find scummy.
Kowah, Invis and Delta- you are all saying that I have a weak read on Kowah, but I didn't say I was townreading Kowah at all. Seriously, here is the entire post:
In post 42, Merlyn wrote:
I don't find it scummy for Kowah to suggest this, because I've played with them before when he was town and he did the exact same thing. I'm not saying he's right (I have no idea if he's right bc I've never seen anyone do it yet), but it's not scum indicative of them.
It's two whole sentences long. Delta said a thing that Kowah said was scummy, and I said it wasn't scummy bc I've seen him do it as town. I reiterated that it's not scum indicative. I didn't say he was a townread at all, I was saying it's NAI. Which, you know, it is.
I don't actually have any townreads yet at all, you're all leaning a little scummy to me lol.
In post 88, Deltabreedy wrote:
Clearing someone of scumhood through purely meta reeds less than 100 posts into the game just doesn't scream town so my vote is on Merlyn for now.
I've cleared them of scumhood though according you. It's reasonable for me to think, since they can only be town or scum, that means you were saying I was thinking Kowah is scum.
In post 104, Merlyn wrote:
Kowah, Invis and Delta- you are all saying that I have a weak read on Kowah, but I didn't say I was townreading Kowah at all.
I'm saying I see Delta's thought process, not that I agree with it.
In post 110, JasonWazza wrote:
Town Delta is way more confrontational then Scum Delta, could be playing to meta, but i think it's good enough for this early.
So mafia can get the seeking neighbour role, and if a town and mafia get the role then that would mean the role essentially becomes useless as now you're not proving to each other your role by being neighbours, yes? In that case, what does finding your neighbour, bingle, would prove except that you are not a pretender?
I was thinking the same thing. but what jason said makes a lot of sense with the pseudo cop thing. alginments are random and roles are random so I thought it was just designed to cause chaos and I was going to treat like a micro vanilla game.
It's interesting in that Delta is arguing semantics about what merlyn said and ignoring semantics about what he said, but in my limited experience he became obviously town when exposed to pressure. Which is exactly why pressure on Delta is good.
As I see it, merlyn made the argument that Kowah genuinely thinks a no lim is a good idea, so Kowah arguing for a no lim is not a scum indicative behavior. This ignores that how kowah argues that particular belief as scum and town could be very different, and in fact IS very different in this game and the game she linked.
Delta seemingly conflated not scum indicative with being indicative of not being scum, and has been saying that Merlyn perspective slipped knowledge of town kowah. Merlyn only ever said that the push for a no elimination was not itself scummy.
If what Delta was actually pushing was that Merlyn should have been more wary about the difference between how scum Kowah and town Kowah would push that thing that was a genuine belief, which seems to be what he's arguing in 105, then I'd like him to engage with my logic on why I think assuming a consistency in belief isn't worth analyzing is a town thought process, if a surface level one.
If Delta is actually pushing that the word choice of Not Scum Indicative vs Not Alignment Indicative is damning, then I think that's a bad take and disagree.
I have a gut feeling about them right now that just comes down to me feeling like their posts are fake.
can you give an example of one? because to me it's mostly been setup speculation which I read in a past game a long time ago iirc is either not alignment indicative or scum trying to generate posts, but everyone is doing it and it feels like this setup is particularly interesting so I do think it leans on nai since mostly everyone is doing it.
In post 112, Political Clout wrote:
I was thinking the same thing. but what jason said makes a lot of sense with the pseudo cop thing. alginments are random and roles are random so I thought it was just designed to cause chaos and I was going to treat like a micro vanilla game.
Not entirely wrong. The game is close enough to a smalltown, philosophy wise. Power role wise, we can ignore what people have today safely. Starting tomorrow, we should be able to make judgments about whether what they claim to have done makes sense to do as scum or town.
To give the self meta I give in virtually every game:
I argue mech from a position of arguing what I believe to be the best mech for town in all cases where there isn't an autowin for town that I can't deal with as scum. I do this because as scum in a reasonably balanced setup the risk in being caught arguing shit mech is much greater to me than the risk in town following good mech advise I give. I also tend to be heavily invested in mech, as my primary interaction with mafia is as a game reviewer and/or repository of useless game theory.
In post 65, Kowahbunga wrote:
I feel a no lim is still our best option. Even with people disagreeing with me. Everyone has a power this game, even if you're a pretender, you're going to do something and get information. Which means everyone is going to be playing for their survival more than to solve today because everyone will be of the opinion they're important and need to see out the day so they can hopefully avoid the NK and get their ability off to save the day for town.
I do however think it's probably more advantageous than my usual "just end the day asap" to spend more time trying to solve the game and get a good feel for everyone so that everyone can target appropriately. We should not lim today.
Contrary to this i believe a no-lim is the worst option. Best outcome is we elim scum, 2/9 chance, and the next best option would be to elim a pretender to reduce the amount of bogus results, as well as clearing the rolelist. Even with a mafia pretender the chance in 1/3, and this is without considering that we will scumhunt raising the probability of a good elim to %100 :wink:
7 Days is plenty of time. We'll find something. And at this point claiming on the spot shouldn't put too much pressure even for important roles per the pretender rolls. We march forward.
I agree we should just revert to site meta look for scum kill scum. but if you believe it's the worst option shouldn't it be alignment indicative to you?
I raise a point about the language being used by a player, and how it points to a more informed (read: mafia) perspective, and three of you jump down my throat?
It feels like I'm being told that trying to game-solve is bad and to be honest the votes on me are all significantly worse and reactionary than my votes which have at least had a smidge of thought put into them.
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I really don't see the value in no-limming D1. That's pretty universal - I would take a no-lim over the lim of someone that I think 99%+ to be town, but that's a pretty rare occurrence.
In this game it still doesn't make sense as a strategy to push a no-lim. We don't need a full playerbase in order to generate information, and to be honest even from a mechanical perspective - shit will be easier to work out if we have less players.
I'm a bit miffed at the focus on mechanical solving in D1 over plain old scumhunting - I do genuinely feel like Merlyn has something to hide on this because of how they described Kowah's actions as Not Scum Indicative, rather than intimating that it isn't certain.
Clearing someone of scumhood through purely meta reeds less than 100 posts into the game just doesn't scream town so my vote is on Merlyn for now.
Those of you with votes on me in particular, I'd encourage you to commit to game solving and telling me why it's worth eliminating me for calling out something I find scummy.
In post 113, Bingle wrote:
As I see it, merlyn made the argument that Kowah genuinely thinks a no lim is a good idea, so Kowah arguing for a no lim is not a scum indicative behavior. This ignores that how kowah argues that particular belief as scum and town could be very different, and in fact IS very different in this game and the game she linked.
Interesting, bc I'm not sure I agree. Can you show me what you're thinking of that's very different?
P-edit: I definitely don't see the 'very different' you mentioned.
I'm getting caught up in the setup spec. Which i think is bad instead I'll focus on initially when I read jason's post I thought or just assumed he was town for some reason so I'll stick with that. I find myself agreeing a lot with people but only about the setup and disagreeing about other things. like when invisibility said that if it was a good plan it's probably to late now? that pinged me on a reread. I also find it odd that invisibility whiteknights merlyn why not let the interaction play through because what delta said was right technically. what's silly about it? but I like invisibilities post 111 where they say why it should be obvious to them in their interaction with jason.
@jason how is 105 wonky? it means i looked it up unstead,shaky, awry, or wrong. are you using wonky differently?
In post 21, Kowahbunga wrote:
I think Bingle's claim could literally break open the game if we just end the day now and assume everyone who is anyone is smart enough to do what needs to be done from here and come back on D2 with the potential of a ton of information to use.
VOTE: no lim
In post 23, Kowahbunga wrote:
Hmm, I see. They could even both be scum, I suppose.
I still think day should end with no lim. Come back on D2 and discuss. I also strongly feel like a massclaim today would be fun.
In post 40, Kowahbunga wrote:
I really feel like a no lim gets us to D2 with the most pieces of information. A lim maybe hits scum, but if it doesn't then that's one less piece to the puzzle we have. I'm 101% for a no lim today.
In post 65, Kowahbunga wrote:
I feel a no lim is still our best option. Even with people disagreeing with me. Everyone has a power this game, even if you're a pretender, you're going to do something and get information. Which means everyone is going to be playing for their survival more than to solve today because everyone will be of the opinion they're important and need to see out the day so they can hopefully avoid the NK and get their ability off to save the day for town.
I do however think it's probably more advantageous than my usual "just end the day asap" to spend more time trying to solve the game and get a good feel for everyone so that everyone can target appropriately. We should not lim today.
Not only actively voting for no lim, 4/5 of their opening posts are actively advocating that we do no lim.
In post 24, Deltabreedy wrote:
Gets us talking, gets us out of random voting and into the good stuff. RVS is a fundamentally useless stage of the game and the sooner we can break out of it, the better.
Scum would would RVS to continue for as long as possible to mitigate the amount of healthy, productive conversation we can all have.
I can't believe that this trope still hasn't been defeated yet. RVS will naturally end, most of the time. You don't need to be a troll to end the thing. You're just trying to gain townie credit in a very greedy and kinda overly defensive manner.
In post 24, Deltabreedy wrote:
Gets us talking, gets us out of random voting and into the good stuff. RVS is a fundamentally useless stage of the game and the sooner we can break out of it, the better.
Scum would would RVS to continue for as long as possible to mitigate the amount of healthy, productive conversation we can all have.
I can't believe that this trope still hasn't been defeated yet. RVS will naturally end, most of the time. You don't need to be a troll to end the thing. You're just trying to gain townie credit in a very greedy and kinda overly defensive manner.
My vote stays, this is scum.
why
Your post is from an obvious scum mindset to me. It's not a trope that ending RVS is a good thing. Games do not need a 5 page RVS. The sooner it is over the better for town because the game begins. What is the difference between RVS ending on page 10 or page 1? Why would you ever think it's more natural for RVS to end later than sooner? RVS ended naturally here too but you're speaking like it didn't.
Overall I currently feel you're trying to brute force yourself out of the corner you're in, when I believe a town player would just continue scum hunting on their way to remove the votes. You're not presenting logic, you're presenting excuses.
Im catching up on my phone but his posts are not making me feel he is genuine. I have this bad feeling about everything of his I have read so im going to chase this feeling.
In post 141, Kowahbunga wrote:I don't consider D1 nearly as important as everyone likes to pretend and I'm not afraid to say it. People love to mention "oh we can see this or that and wagons and blah blah blah" then all of it's for nothing because by the end of the game no one even looks at it again. I like to get my sights set on someone and focus in on them on D1. I hunt for one scum and find it. From there, I begin using information that actually exists... Like the final wagon of each day, the night kill. I consider each game like an omelet, and you can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. I believe playing D1 like you're going to find all the scum and it's just going to be scum lim after scum lim until game is over is a ridiculous concept to chase. But people love to pretend that is how it'll play out.
I'm not going to bother wasting my effort getting a read on everyone D1. I'll do my part in 1 or 2 people and let others interaction with others be the information I use in D2 and later if I'm around.
This is terrible if it is coming from town, and it is getting on my nerves a little. All I see is:
"y'all are not going to get much from me now because that's how I play",
"you guys go ahead, while I sit back and observe so that I can do more later",
"somebody is bound to be mislimmed, stop dreaming about D2 win, and the content is going to be here anyway, so what's the point of forming/sharing any thoughts now".
If everyone just goes "Yeah my guts say he's scum", where are we getting content for D2 analysis? Sharing reads helps other to pay attention to things that they might have missed. Why is that more important in D2 than in D1?
Because town do not have information to play with in D1. I'm not saying you don't need to talk, but providing full read lists in D1 is almost pointless. Find a couple people to solve and then expand on it as the game goes. Don't try and figure the whole game out in a day that it is literally impossible to figure the whole game out in.
To take it even further, if I had my way in mafia and in a perfect world we would all vote no lim d1 silently and get to D2 unless it was a completely vanilla game with no powers.
In my opinion of the game the balance of information is where town win. At the start the town have far less than scum. Us talking is giving them more information than it's giving us. No limming guarantees no town pr is outed, PLUS it makes it so the scum have to NK by a complete random basis. I play the odds here, give us the entire town alive in N1 with powers firing, and assume the odds will be in our favour and scum hit a VT. THEN you can start playing the game for real.
The fact I even bother to try and find scum on D1 is more than I wish I had to do.
In post 167, Kowahbunga wrote:Because town do not have information to play with in D1. I'm not saying you don't need to talk, but providing full read lists in D1 is almost pointless. Find a couple people to solve and then expand on it as the game goes. Don't try and figure the whole game out in a day that it is literally impossible to figure the whole game out in.
To take it even further, if I had my way in mafia and in a perfect world we would all vote no lim d1 silently and get to D2 unless it was a completely vanilla game with no powers.
In my opinion of the game the balance of information is where town win. At the start the town have far less than scum. Us talking is giving them more information than it's giving us. No limming guarantees no town pr is outed, PLUS it makes it so the scum have to NK by a complete random basis. I play the odds here, give us the entire town alive in N1 with powers firing, and assume the odds will be in our favour and scum hit a VT. THEN you can start playing the game for real.
The fact I even bother to try and find scum on D1 is more than I wish I had to do.
This doesn't add up. No limming guarantees that no pressure is applied to anyone, giving scum the perfect environment to hide in plain sight. Without pressure, no one will be able to see people's reaction under duress, which can sometimes be valuable information later in case. When we silently go to first night with absolutely no info, town PRs also have to target in random, not only scum, essentially making it a night start. When everything is up to chance, I fail to see how any NK will give us more to analyze in D2, unless you're willing to take the chance that Town PR managed to target scum, and survive the night. This current setup doesn't even guarantee that we have town PR that is able to perform night action.
Earlier you were okay with a few eggs being broken to cook an omelette, and now you'd prefer otherwise?
In post 166, Deltabreedy wrote:@SeeEmpty, how does this weigh up against your read on SSK?
I'm getting more and more uncomfortable and dissatisfied of his point of view, but for now I'm not sure if it is just bad play or scum play just yet.
The difference between town prs and scum prs is that town prs can find scum or town confirm (at least to the PR if not to the whole game) players. The blind part does not matter for town prs. Also a town PR should be used on their null reads anyways. Which everyone would be if no lim was voted through on D1.
We are WAY past the point where no lim is the way to go. I said if I could have it my way, everyone would vote no lim silently to start D1. We've long past that, and I'm way over trying to convince people to do it anymore at the start of every game. No one believes I'm right about it, and I'm okay with that.
Despite saying they want to no lim, they're not shy about throwing votes around and trying to get to a lim. They go a bit into their reasoning for wanting no lim overall (low information heading into night gives better PR results with minimal mafia interference) and acknowledge that in their view the no lim should happen with virtually no discussion prior. Compare to this game, where they are not only in favor of no lim but early mass claim and think that no lim is still viable even in light of my having claimed, and there is actually quite a gulf between the way they've approached what is probably a genuinely held belief. The underlying belief in no lim remains constant, but virtually everything around that is night and day.
In post 122, Political Clout wrote:
@jason how is 105 wonky? it means i looked it up unstead,shaky, awry, or wrong. are you using wonky differently?
No that is how i was using it, feels like a weird semantic argument to make and i feel like NAI and not Scum indicative are basically interchangeable depending on context (EG. saying something that is scummy is NAI and Not scum indicative, are the same thing).
Returning win rate: 4/1, 80%
In the process of creating a game to mod, we will see what it holds.
