Newbie 694 (over)

For Newbie Games, which have a set format and experienced moderators. Archived during the 2023 queue overhaul.
User avatar
hambargarz
hambargarz
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
hambargarz
Goon
Goon
Posts: 338
Joined: July 20, 2008

Post Post #110 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:37 am

Post by hambargarz »

self voting, to me at least, is generally an anti-town play.
There are some instances where it is good though (ie. gambiting).
At this point in the game, I see you're self vote as neither one or the other because it doesn't escalate much.

In my last game 2 people self voted. The context was much more significant than here however. (Though the behaviour was seen as anti-town rather than scummy).

Asking stuff like this strikes me as a bit scummy. You want the town's position on your behaviour? That only helps you if you're scum in my opinion.
FOS: ClockworkRuse
Elennaro
Elennaro
Townie
Elennaro
Townie
Townie
Posts: 43
Joined: October 23, 2008

Post Post #111 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:54 am

Post by Elennaro »

Clockworkruse, I challenge your statement. I think it's a reasonably good policy (though exceptions are always possible). The only thing the mafia can do to avoid getting lynched is post, which increases the chances of them slipping up. Of course we should lynch clear targets (like false claimers) before we lynch lurkers, but in case of doubt, lynching a lurker seems like a good idea to me. At best, you lynch a scum member that was not going to give you information, at worst, an unhelpful townie (or power role, that would be unfortunate, but it's easily avoided).

That being said, I don't advocate lynching right now, but my vote stays where it is, because a little pressure will do the town no harm.

Please explain why policy lynches only hurt the town.
Elennaro
Elennaro
Townie
Elennaro
Townie
Townie
Posts: 43
Joined: October 23, 2008

Post Post #112 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 12:48 pm

Post by Elennaro »

EBWOP: that was a reply to your post at the end of the previous page, I hadn't seen this page yet.
User avatar
hambargarz
hambargarz
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
hambargarz
Goon
Goon
Posts: 338
Joined: July 20, 2008

Post Post #113 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:17 pm

Post by hambargarz »

In my last game we had a couple of lurkers that didn't post. They survived right till the end with townies lynching other townies in the meantime. At the end at lylo with 3 people left (all 3 were originally lurking. 2 were replaced), the remaining lurker was lynched (on the reasons for lurking). Turned out the lurker was town and scum won the game.

So I say lynch lurkers earlier rather than later.
Elennaro
Elennaro
Townie
Elennaro
Townie
Townie
Posts: 43
Joined: October 23, 2008

Post Post #114 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:38 pm

Post by Elennaro »

Exactly. If they're town, they're not being helpful anyway. So if you have no really good reason to lynch a non-lurker, you'd best lynch lurkers.
User avatar
ClockworkRuse
ClockworkRuse
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
ClockworkRuse
Goon
Goon
Posts: 778
Joined: June 12, 2008
Location: Here, Somewhere USA

Post Post #115 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 2:43 pm

Post by ClockworkRuse »

hambargarz wrote:self voting, to me at least, is generally an anti-town play.
There are some instances where it is good though (ie. gambiting).
At this point in the game, I see you're self vote as neither one or the other because it doesn't escalate much.

In my last game 2 people self voted. The context was much more significant than here however. (Though the behaviour was seen as anti-town rather than scummy).

Asking stuff like this strikes me as a bit scummy. You want the town's position on your behaviour? That only helps you if you're scum in my opinion.
FOS: ClockworkRuse
No, I'm going to be making a point to the newer players after they all answer.

I didn't say that lynching lurkers hurts us, I said that policy lynches hurts us. By saying you are going to lynch someone on policy, you are saying that because they are doing something that may not necessarily be a scum tell, you want them to be lynched.

An example of this would be Lynch all Liars. There are pro-town reasons to lie, for example if a watcher lies about their role while mass claiming to see what the people they have watched claim. A policy lynch of lynch all liars would say you should lynch the watcher for lying. See my point.
User avatar
hambargarz
hambargarz
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
hambargarz
Goon
Goon
Posts: 338
Joined: July 20, 2008

Post Post #116 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:31 pm

Post by hambargarz »

Elennaro wrote:Exactly. If they're town, they're not being helpful anyway. So if you have no really good reason to lynch a non-lurker, you'd best lynch lurkers.
It's tricky because a live townie is better than a dead one even though they are lurking. It's usually best to bide our time and lynch people acting scummy. We have a lot of time to discuss. You never know you could lynch a townie who is about to be replaced, or even worse a pro-town role. That said, leaving lurkers too long, can end up like my last game, where you only have 2 people out of 5 posting, and that doesn't help the town at all.
Elennaro
Elennaro
Townie
Elennaro
Townie
Townie
Posts: 43
Joined: October 23, 2008

Post Post #117 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 4:47 pm

Post by Elennaro »

I still think lynching lurkers is a good idea, as long as you don't forget why you're doing it. After all, the lurker may be mafia as well, and this would force them to stop using that strategy. Wouldn't the mod tell us if someone were going to be replaced? And yes, there's always a risk that you'll lynch a pro-town power role, but that's the same with non-lurkers. In fact, I'd argue that power roles are less likely to lurk, as they feel they have something more interesting to do with the game.

I'm all for biding our time, though. Discussion has hardly begun yet, so lynching now would be a bad idea.

Clockworkruse: I don't know. I figured that mafia might do it to cut short investigation (if it's the final vote) but town probably wouldn't do that, AFAIK. I can see it happening just to get things over with if some peopl are lurking for long periods of time, though.
User avatar
hambargarz
hambargarz
Goon
User avatar
User avatar
hambargarz
Goon
Goon
Posts: 338
Joined: July 20, 2008

Post Post #118 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 5:02 pm

Post by hambargarz »

You could also say that pro-town roles have a reason to lurk/keep a low profile. Problem with lynching a lurker, is the lurker has no opportunity to role claim before he's hammered.
urielzyx
urielzyx
Townie
urielzyx
Townie
Townie
Posts: 62
Joined: October 22, 2008
Location: Israel

Post Post #119 (ISO) » Mon Nov 03, 2008 11:10 pm

Post by urielzyx »

u could let everyone FoS the lurker, and let him know if he doesn't claim or contribute until some deadline, you'll lynch him.

Clockworkruse: I never thought of self voting, but it would seem that it is not strictly one or the other, it is very context related.

About policy lynching, I think it depends what that policy is, lynch all liars is a bad policy, lynch all lurkers may be a good policy, I would probably lynch a probable scum over a lurker, but if u don't have suspicions u may have just as much chance of lynching a scum or a power role as with non lurkers, the difference is that a lurker won't help as much if he's vanilla as an active player does...
User avatar
Xtoxm
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
User avatar
User avatar
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
EBWOXM
Posts: 12886
Joined: November 30, 2007

Post Post #120 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:06 am

Post by Xtoxm »

Inf's recent posts strike me as odd, even coming from someone not used to the pace of games here.
Smooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
urielzyx
urielzyx
Townie
urielzyx
Townie
Townie
Posts: 62
Joined: October 22, 2008
Location: Israel

Post Post #121 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:34 am

Post by urielzyx »

Actually, when u think about it, he only has 6 posts in the thread,

1st post - confirmation.
2nd post - we asked where everybody lives and he says florida.
3rd - vote Xtoxm(RV).
4th - mentions he loves RV.

After that he disappears for a long time, until we start talking about lurkers, then he jumps out with a wierd question, and doesn't contribute anything.

In addition, he did not cancel his RV yet.

Vote: infamousace2
User avatar
Xtoxm
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
User avatar
User avatar
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
EBWOXM
Posts: 12886
Joined: November 30, 2007

Post Post #122 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 1:37 am

Post by Xtoxm »

Now that the game has kicked off, i'd like to see him come into the game more, there are a couple things to comment on, rather than just vote him. If it continues in this fashion though, I shall feel the need to vote him.
Smooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
Elennaro
Elennaro
Townie
Elennaro
Townie
Townie
Posts: 43
Joined: October 23, 2008

Post Post #123 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 2:42 am

Post by Elennaro »

I never said you should lynch lurkers without giving them a chance to defend themselves. And anyway, the only town power role who should really try to remain hidden is the doctor, and he could play active townie just as well, it should be really easy for him, because he has no knowledge the town does not have (unless he prevents a kill, and even then it doesn't mean anything in games with a vig). Lurking should not be a good way to keep a low profile. But, of course I'd rather lynch a probable mafia than a lurker.

What's wrong with lynching liars, by the way? I mean, of course exceptions must be possible, but what is wrong with it in general?
User avatar
Xtoxm
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
User avatar
User avatar
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
EBWOXM
Posts: 12886
Joined: November 30, 2007

Post Post #124 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 4:33 am

Post by Xtoxm »

No, all town power's want to stay hidden on Day One, really. There are a couple of exceptions, but certainly not in this game.
Smooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
Elennaro
Elennaro
Townie
Elennaro
Townie
Townie
Posts: 43
Joined: October 23, 2008

Post Post #125 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 8:14 am

Post by Elennaro »

Staying hidden and lurking are not synonymous.
urielzyx
urielzyx
Townie
urielzyx
Townie
Townie
Posts: 62
Joined: October 22, 2008
Location: Israel

Post Post #126 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 9:22 am

Post by urielzyx »

Elennaro wrote:I never said you should lynch lurkers without giving them a chance to defend themselves. And anyway, the only town power role who should really try to remain hidden is the doctor, and he could play active townie just as well, it should be really easy for him, because he has no knowledge the town does not have (unless he prevents a kill, and even then it doesn't mean anything in games with a vig). Lurking should not be a good way to keep a low profile. But, of course I'd rather lynch a probable mafia than a lurker.

What's wrong with lynching liars, by the way? I mean, of course exceptions must be possible, but what is wrong with it in general?

Lets say there i'm a watcher, ok?
Now, I know u targeted the guy that died last night, ok?
So I claim cop and say that I have a guilty on u, and ask u to claim.
if u claim miller, then I'll know your scum because miller doesn't target, if u say I can't be cop because ur not scum(ur vig or cop or something), then I'll know u may be telling the truth.

now, after that happens, if u claim miller, and I claim watcher and tell everyone that I just wanted to check if u r scum or vig.

after that happens, a guy with a Lync all Liars policy would lynch me next day(this day lynch the scum) just because I lied...

get it?
infamousace2
infamousace2
Townie
infamousace2
Townie
Townie
Posts: 16
Joined: October 22, 2008

Post Post #127 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:26 am

Post by infamousace2 »

I check on the message board every few hours...

but I feel until we no lynch...or until someone is lynched...there isn't much to talk about
infamousace2
infamousace2
Townie
infamousace2
Townie
Townie
Posts: 16
Joined: October 22, 2008

Post Post #128 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:27 am

Post by infamousace2 »

And this is my first game on this website, which is why I asked the question how long day takes.

In another game I'm in...its 48 hours, and the person with the most votes is lynched if there isn't a majority
User avatar
Xtoxm
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
User avatar
User avatar
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
EBWOXM
Posts: 12886
Joined: November 30, 2007

Post Post #129 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:28 am

Post by Xtoxm »

Inf, what do you think Mafia is about, and why did you sign up for this game? - This is a genuine question.
Smooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
User avatar
GIEFF
GIEFF
Internet Superstar
User avatar
User avatar
GIEFF
Internet Superstar
Internet Superstar
Posts: 1610
Joined: October 15, 2008

Post Post #130 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:31 am

Post by GIEFF »

urielzyx wrote:
Lets say there i'm a watcher, ok?
Now, I know u targeted the guy that died last night, ok?
So I claim cop and say that I have a guilty on u, and ask u to claim.
if u claim miller, then I'll know your scum because miller doesn't target, if u say I can't be cop because ur not scum(ur vig or cop or something), then I'll know u may be telling the truth.

now, after that happens, if u claim miller, and I claim watcher and tell everyone that I just wanted to check if u r scum or vig.

after that happens, a guy with a Lync all Liars policy would lynch me next day(this day lynch the scum) just because I lied...

get it?
There is no watcher in this setup. Let's try to keep the theoretical discussions relevant to the game ahead of us. I don't see where a similar incentive to lie would happen in this game; a townie claiming a power role risks outing that power role, and should not be done. Power roles should of course claim vanilla town if pressed, but this is not really a lie so much as sound strategy, and there isn't really any way for this "lie" to be caught in the setup we are using.

So uri, do you agree that in the current setup someone caught in a lie is very likely to be scum?


Regarding the lurker-lynching: I do agree that it is better than a completely random lynch, but hopefully we can find a better lynch by getting a mafia member to slip up.
User avatar
Xtoxm
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
User avatar
User avatar
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
EBWOXM
Posts: 12886
Joined: November 30, 2007

Post Post #131 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:39 am

Post by Xtoxm »

He was making a point, it's fair enough.

But yes - In this setup VT's shouldn't claim power's at all, imo.

Power's only want to give up their role if absolutley necesary to prevent their lynch, with the expection of a cop with a guilty, who would claim it right away.
Smooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
User avatar
Xtoxm
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
User avatar
User avatar
Xtoxm
EBWOXM
EBWOXM
Posts: 12886
Joined: November 30, 2007

Post Post #132 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 10:40 am

Post by Xtoxm »

That and massclaim, ofcourse. Usually done around lylo.
Smooth as silk when he's scum, and very much capable of running things from behind the scenes while appearing to be doing minimal effort. - Almost50
Xtoxm is consistently great - Shosin
you were the only wolf i townread at endgame - the worst
urielzyx
urielzyx
Townie
urielzyx
Townie
Townie
Posts: 62
Joined: October 22, 2008
Location: Israel

Post Post #133 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:15 am

Post by urielzyx »

GIEFF wrote:
urielzyx wrote:
Lets say there i'm a watcher, ok?
Now, I know u targeted the guy that died last night, ok?
So I claim cop and say that I have a guilty on u, and ask u to claim.
if u claim miller, then I'll know your scum because miller doesn't target, if u say I can't be cop because ur not scum(ur vig or cop or something), then I'll know u may be telling the truth.

now, after that happens, if u claim miller, and I claim watcher and tell everyone that I just wanted to check if u r scum or vig.

after that happens, a guy with a Lync all Liars policy would lynch me next day(this day lynch the scum) just because I lied...

get it?
There is no watcher in this setup. Let's try to keep the theoretical discussions relevant to the game ahead of us. I don't see where a similar incentive to lie would happen in this game; a townie claiming a power role risks outing that power role, and should not be done. Power roles should of course claim vanilla town if pressed, but this is not really a lie so much as sound strategy, and there isn't really any way for this "lie" to be caught in the setup we are using.

So uri, do you agree that in the current setup someone caught in a lie is very likely to be scum?


Regarding the lurker-lynching: I do agree that it is better than a completely random lynch, but hopefully we can find a better lynch by getting a mafia member to slip up.

yes, I do agree with ur opinion about this specific setup, but I Elennaro didn't ask y we shouldn't lynch liars, only whats the problem with doing it...

in general I think u should lynch a liar unless his lie was a real strategical step...
User avatar
GIEFF
GIEFF
Internet Superstar
User avatar
User avatar
GIEFF
Internet Superstar
Internet Superstar
Posts: 1610
Joined: October 15, 2008

Post Post #134 (ISO) » Tue Nov 04, 2008 11:40 am

Post by GIEFF »

I thought the below might be useful - it is a history of votes and FoS's with hyperlinks to the relevant posts. I can continue to do this throughout the thread if you find it helpful.


infamousace2

FoS: ClockworkRuse Post 22
Vote: Xtoxm Post 32

hambargarz

vote: Xtoxm Post 26
Unvote, Vote: militant Post 95
FOS: ClockworkRuse Post 110

militant

Vote: GIEFF Post 28

urielzyx

VOTE: Elannaro Post 30
Unvote Post 57
Vote: infamousace2 Post 121

RealityFan

Vote: Gieff Post 43

ClockworkRuse

Vote: ClockworkRuse Post 82
Unvote, Vote hambargarz Post 96

Xtoxm

Vote Militant Post 88




infamous, militant, and RealityFan all still have their random votes "on;" infamous for Xtxom, and the other two for me. Is it customary to simply unvote after the random voting stage has passed, or to leave the vote on the random target until a better target presents itself?

And infamous, I am curious to hear your answer to Xtoxm's question in #129.

Return to “The Road to Rome [Newbie Games]”