New York 116 - Prozacs Large Normal - Who won?

[Tazaro]

@Troll, with my post refering to Sandman at the beginning of the day, I was suggesting to Sandman that he needed to contribute more; I didn't say anything to Stef because I didn't know if she was even there to be reading my suggestions.

[Zorblag]

@Mr.Sandman, we've now confirmed three pro-town power roles but I largely don't disagree with anything you're saying. I've been busy rather than trying to exploit the pace of the game here (if I were trying to exploit it here I could pretty easily hang back and let the game develop without my interference at this point; we probably need to get all of the rest of the lynches right and I suspect that as scum I could lie low and let the town beat itself.)

You're not sure about Tazaro now but I can't tell what it is that you think makes him potentially town based on what you've just written. What is it that I'm not seeing there?

@Toogeloo, I'm not going to ask you to use my failure to be replaced as a point for me. It'd be convenient if you did and there's some chance that it's why I'm still in the game but but it wouldn't be good modding on his part and it's not a compelling argument. On the other hand I am going to ask you not to use my current activity against me. We want players who are trying to figure out who's scum participating now. I have the opportunity to participate now in a way that I didn't earlier and I have no desire to have that hurt the town.

As far as Mr.Sandman goes, I have trouble blaming him for going along with any of the lynches we've had the past couple days. None of them have been particularly poor on the surface and quite frankly the lynchees have done nothing to help the town out in terms of their attitudes. Do take a look at how he reacted to a late game situation in the newbie game that I linked and let me know if you think I'm wrong about his whole attitude here being different. I don't think that he's scum.

@Tazaro, Stef is a he. Who are your top suspects right now and why? Is there anyone that you think is probably town at this point?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Tazaro]

I'm looking at the scum candidates, and I don't know which could be labeled as probtown. My suspicions are of Stef and Mr. Sandman. There contribution levels worry me into thinking of how scum thrive on lying low.

[Tazaro]

Double post: of course, I was excepting Toon and Toogeloo from my jailroom line-up of scum candidates

[Tazaro]

Double post: of course, I was excepting Toon and Toogeloo from my jailroom line-up of scum candidates

7 - 2 - me = four scum candidates, and the key is Find Towno. How are we going to find Towno?

[Zorblag]

@Tazaro, when did you decide that you should drop your suspicion of the masons? As of yesterday you weren't interested in taking them off your list at all. Also, if your top suspects are Stef and Mr.Sandman then why was it you wanted mothrax to claim first? Is current activity level the only reason your using for your suspicions at this point? Based on your reason for suspecting Stef and Mr.Sandman more than others it looks to me like it is but I think that there's a fair amount more to look at.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[mothrax]

I feel like taz is going for the easy lynch. Couple that with the wifomness from oso interactions.
@zorb: you case had been consolidated in one post that I could see clearly and understand. I have a hard time wading through a lot of what you post.

[Tazaro]

@Tazaro, when did you decide that you should drop your suspicion of the masons? As of yesterday you weren't interested in taking them off your list at all. Also, if your top suspects are Stef and Mr.Sandman then why was it you wanted mothrax to claim first? Is current activity level the only reason your using for your suspicions at this point? Based on your reason for suspecting Stef and Mr.Sandman more than others it looks to me like it is but I think that there's a fair amount more to look at.

I had thought about mason claims as an interesting scum gambit, but as I came to see this as a day that's about figuring out who's

town

, I think that the way to decide who's town is to factor in how pro-town or not peoples' posts have been. Toogeloo's sum total of postings looks town, and Sandman's and Stef's postings certainly don't look the same way. Though you might assume that I called for mothrax to claim first because of my thinking his posts were the most scummy; that is not the case: I called for mothrax to claim first because he was the most logical to do so based on his willingness, and I did not care about doing the popcorning in order of suspicion, which is evident because at one point I said that I didn't care in what order Sandman (top suspect) or Zorblag (not top suspect) or Stef (top suspect) claimed.

[Tazaro]

Double Post:

@Tazaro, when did you decide that you should drop your suspicion of the masons? As of yesterday you weren't interested in taking them off your list at all. Also, if your top suspects are Stef and Mr.Sandman then why was it you wanted mothrax to claim first? Is current activity level the only reason your using for your suspicions at this point? Based on your reason for suspecting Stef and Mr.Sandman more than others it looks to me like it is but I think that there's a fair amount more to look at.

I had thought about mason claims as an interesting scum gambit, but as I came to see this as a day that's about figuring out who's

town

, I think that the way to decide who's town is to factor in how pro-town or not peoples' posts have been. Toogeloo's sum total of postings looks town, and Sandman's and Stef's postings certainly don't look the same way. Though you might assume that I called for mothrax to claim first because of my thinking his posts were the most scummy; that is not the case: I called for mothrax to claim first because he was the most logical to do so based on his willingness, and I did not care about doing the popcorning in order of suspicion, which is evident because at one point I said that I didn't care in what order Sandman (top suspect) or Zorblag (not top suspect) or Stef (top suspect) claimed.

But still, as a strategy, how should we Find Towno? By process of elimination based on who is most scummy, which I've tried to tackle, or based on directly figuring out scumness?

[Mr.Sandman]

As far as Sandman goes, for the longest time I thought he was town and would never had considered him scum. Most of his initial reads were the same as mine, yet I have been wrong with almost everything I have thought since the game began. As time went on, I started to rethink the game. As of the last few days however, Sandman has been consentful of almost all the lynches while offering no opinion of his own other than what was already popular.

I think most of the people still alive have ended up on most of the lynches, not that that is an excuse. The only thing I would say in my defence is that if people had held off a bit longer two or three of the lynches, I think more discussion may perhaps have prevented certain lynches. After lowell's claim for example. I also felt that mothrax deserved more attention before the tubby hammer. I'm not saying I or anyone else would've saved them, but I still don't think the pace at which people took them was right.

@Mr.Sandman, we've now confirmed three pro-town power roles but I largely don't disagree with anything you're saying. I've been busy rather than trying to exploit the pace of the game here (if I were trying to exploit it here I could pretty easily hang back and let the game develop without my interference at this point; we probably need to get all of the rest of the lynches right and I suspect that as scum I could lie low and let the town beat itself.)

You're not sure about Tazaro now but I can't tell what it is that you think makes him potentially town based on what you've just written. What is it that I'm not seeing there?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

The fact that I haven't written you off as being scum either - until I do, I think the potential is there he could be town. That's why I don't think either of you are today's lynch. I'd also add right now that another thing I don't like about him now is the fact that today, I've suddenly become a top suspect of his today for 'activity' reasons, when he's barely even mentioned my name before

Tazaro, opinion of mothrax and Zorblag?

[Tazaro]

I honestly don't know how to get a read on Zorblag, but he seems to be very actively getting information, which makes him look the most town to me out of the group of four I've alluded to, and I will say that mothrax doesn't post memorable stuff, though he's active enough and so is a person who is in between Zorblag and Stef/Sandman in terms of my suspicion.

[Tazaro]

I honestly don't know how to get a read on Zorblag, but he seems to be very actively getting information, which makes him look the most town to me out of the group of four I've alluded to, and I will say that mothrax doesn't post memorable stuff, though he's active enough and so is a person who is in between Zorblag and Stef/Sandman in terms of my suspicion.

But the person who's posted the most forgettable stuff during the game has been Stef; I said he was conservative in the past, but in the context of voting for Lowell and whatnot, it was much too conservative. I hate to see when people vote and just slip on by and don't get the attention they deserve; I agree with Sandman that tubby's hammer was premature.

[Tazaro]

I honestly don't know how to get a read on Zorblag, but he seems to be very actively getting information, which makes him look the most town to me out of the group of four I've alluded to, and I will say that mothrax doesn't post memorable stuff, though he's active enough and so is a person who is in between Zorblag and Stef/Sandman in terms of my suspicion.

But the person who's posted the most forgettable stuff during the game has been Stef; I said he was conservative in the past, but in the context of voting for Lowell and whatnot, it was much too conservative. I hate to see when people vote and just slip on by and don't get the attention they deserve; I agree with Sandman that tubby's hammer was premature.

Not that I'm suggesting that the hammer of tubby was a scummy move by virtue of being premature; the prematureness was not a fault of the hammerer but I say that it was premature in the sense that there was the missed opportunity that should have happened first, an opportunity that could have been filled by what people could have talked about before the hammer.

[Stef]

@Zorblag: yeah, pretty much caught up with the game.

At this point I am looking at the cases and I'm not seeing much in any direction. The case on me is "he has been lurking" which is bull because I have 1. had my account inactive for a week 2. I moved to a different country 3. this has been my activity level site-wide. I also remember someone saying I was scummy for my voting pattern and that I attacked Benmage and that could have been bussing. I am not afraid to hammer. If I think the wagon is right then I will vote and hammer every time. I am aware that people who do hammer to get looked on for it but I don't really care to be honest and the bussing argument is null without my flip but I will tell you this. If people would have listened to me D1 we would have caught scum instead of going on that retarded wagon on Wraith which was pretty much confirmed town based on his play, a lynch which told us nothing and basically gave the mafia 2 kills.

I have no reason to suspect the masons. Toogeloo has been very townish and if he and toon are scum it was a great gambit, toog has played us all and they diserve to win. I'm not saying it's impossible, I just think it is unlikely and speculating if one of the most pro-town players is scum will lead nowhere at this point.

After reading all of you in ISO... mothrax looks bad. Most of his scumhunting looks very shallow and for show. See the Tazaro push for example. I get a town vibe from Zorblag and the next in line would be Tazaro for his play throughout the game but his vote being on all the town wagons does not mean as much for me as it seems to matter for others. Sandman's game looks ... townish to me.

[Tazaro]

I know I'm usually making some content, but I'mma be busy today.

[Porochaz]

No votes have been cast.

[Toogeloo]

Alright, logically, since most everyone is willing to accept Toon and I as town, out of the 5 remaining of you (assuming each of you believes they are town, which is obviously not the case), 3 are likely scum. This means from each of your perspectives, you only need to determine who you think is town other than yourself (not including Toon and myself). This also means each of you 5 has a greater degree of success of hitting scum than Toon or I would since we have to figure which TWO of you are likely town.

So I want to pose this for the next stage of conversation. I want each of you 5 (excluding myself and toon) to say one person who you think is the most likely to be town. Even if you think all 4 of the others are equally scummy, try to consider one name of someone besides Yourself, Toon, and I who could possibly be town.

[Zorblag]

@Tazaro, is there any reason that you didn't think of taking a look at Toogeloo's posts yesterday when you were trying to figure out his alignment and were just arguing that scum could make a fake mason claim as a tactic? It doesn't seem as though there's any reason for today to be the first day to do that if you're trying to figure out who was most likely to be scum leading up to now.

Also, still, is there anything other than current participation that you're using to judge scumminess? I'll site Toon Fighter (and essentially all of our mislynches up till now) as reasons to think that participation doesn't imply town. There is a correlation and prior to LyLo I think it's worth pursuing (see about half of what I had to say about tubby216 for examples if you'd like) but now we need to make sure we're getting this right. I'm not at all convinced that that's a major concern for you right now.

@mothrax, I wonder if you could point to my summary that you found helpful. Offhand I'm not sure what you've got in mind that would have cleared things up. My concern here is that you've constructed false and convenient reasons to stop objecting to a mislynch yesterday. I'd also like to hear more of what you think of everyone beyond Tazaro today. Toogeloo's call for a least scummy candidate from you (and the rest of us) should be a good place to start.

@Mr.Sandman, that wasn't quite what I was trying to ask there. I guess maybe I should phrase it as what has Tazaro done that keeps him off your list of probably scum that mothrax and Stef haven't done? You're classifications clearly put the later two in a scummier category and I'm trying to understand the distinction as I don't see any praise for Tazaro in your thoughts about him.

@Stef, if you're going to try to take credit for pushing a Benmage lynch on day one (when it didn't happen and I'm not sure how close it ever got) why shouldn't we question your lack of any push in that direction that I can think of on subsequent days? You also seem to have more town leaning reads at this point than I think there should be town in the game which is a bit unexpected. Do you have any links to LyLo type situations you've been in where that's been the case previously?

@Toogeloo, my best guess for town beyond the masons and myself is Mr.Sandman. His play might be light but I do like it overall and it feels different to me than the scum play that I've seen from him.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Zorblag]

@Tazaro, oh yeah, one more thing, based no what was said in the game thread in a popcorn claim both Toogeloo and I seem to think that it's best to have the people most likely to be scum claim first. Do you agree with that and why or why not?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Tazaro]

@Toogeloo: My town pick is Zorblag.
@Zorblag: (i) I did in fact see that Toogeloo's posts were good participation, so the mason conspiracy was one possibility out of several, though it was not the best of ones when compared to the others I've been looking at. (ii) Popcorning is efficient to get the process of mass-claiming over with, but even if a scum goes first, that person can always claim a safe claim, vanilla townie, so I don't think going first gives scum much of a problem.

[Tazaro]

@Toogeloo: My town pick is Zorblag.
@Zorblag: (i) I did in fact see that Toogeloo's posts were good participation, so the mason conspiracy was one possibility out of several, though it was not the best of ones when compared to the others I've been looking at. (ii) Popcorning is efficient to get the process of mass-claiming over with, but even if a scum goes first, that person can always claim a safe claim, vanilla townie, so I don't think going first gives scum much of a problem.

Double post: So, Zorblag, I don't, as much as you do, care about people claiming first if they happen to be the town's scummiest person. I have to consider who I personally think is the scummiest person, but I don't think it is needful for them to go first in roleclaiming.

[Mr.Sandman]

@Mr.Sandman, that wasn't quite what I was trying to ask there. I guess maybe I should phrase it as what has Tazaro done that keeps him off your list of probably scum that mothrax and Stef haven't done? You're classifications clearly put the later two in a scummier category and I'm trying to understand the distinction as I don't see any praise for Tazaro in your thoughts about him.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

I would say the one thing which discourages my scum read on him are his activity levels. While broadly speaking, there perhaps shouldn't be much difference between town and scum, and I think you have to take different playing styles and activity levels generally into account, I would still say that scum have a tendency to hang back more, whereas in this case Tazaro has probably been one of the most active players in the game. I'm also aware that the flip side to that is the content of the posts and while he may have posted a lot, his content in those posts is a lot thinner than some who have posted less. That's really all I've got down in his favour, but it's enough to discourage me from coming to a definite conclusion on him, whereas I feel fairly comfortable with the other two

However, the more I think about this, the more I would choose Zorblag as my town pick over Tazaro

[Mr.Sandman]

In fact, what I said about the number of posts by Tazaro is a null tell. Just checked some of his games listed on his wiki and he's very active in all of them. I would definitely choose Zorblag as town above him

[Tazaro]

In fact, what I said about the number of posts by Tazaro is a null tell. Just checked some of his games listed on his wiki and he's very active in all of them. I would definitely choose Zorblag as town above him

Well, now that it's school season, my activity is less than it used to be, but I indeed have felt a duty to post in my games everyday.

[Stef]

I already have. My pick is Zorblag.