mini 800 - cr3t1ns mafier - gaem over

[Yosarian2]

Also, I agree; a game that claims to be semi-open but really isn't is just bad. The only way we could have won was to find the SK on day 1 or day 2, and we couldn't look for one, because the mod had basically told us there wasn't one.

Basically the only point when the game could have gone differently was day 1; the only chance for the town to win this game was to lynch some kind of scum day 1. Day 2, we were inevitably going to follow a false cop investigation, and day 3, we had already lost.

[Battle Mage]

I could barely bring myself to look at this game as soon as i was told Camn was indeed the SK, because there's nothing worse for Mafia, than losing to an SK. lol
The game was horribly unbalanced, imo. The fact that somebody - Incog? knew the Mod, and others didnt, and outguessing him was so easy, was incredibly frustrating. I'm not ashamed of my play here, and i think CTD played well too. It's not a playstyle i'd use, but if it works, why tinker with it?

In fact, the nature of the playerlist was, everyone around at the end, played well. But, town got screwed. We got screwed. Camn WAS screwed, and somehow managed to win. Maybe the game WAS balanced.

Hate to be the grinch, but i'm still kinda gutted.

BM

[CrashTextDummie]

I should have caught BM earlier then I did.

I take it you don't think you should have caught

me

earlier then? Aw, I'm flattered.

Day 2, we were inevitably going to follow a false cop investigation, and day 3, we had already lost.

I don't think it was inevitable. Granted, Haylen was a fairly predictable cop choice, but we had to be damn sure she was town before tailoring her (I was assuming rival scum-team until camn-SK became apparent). Which we were. I was probably even more sure about her than I was about Phoebus and Yos.

Also, I forgot to thank BM. Playing scum with him was a blast, and I think we did well together. It's disheartening that we were undone by something we couldn't predict or stop, really.

[CrashTextDummie]

Also:

Crash, I swear I sometimes play competently.

I know.

You really bugged me in this game, though.

[Ether]

I bugged me, too. X_X

How come you're never on AIM anymore?

[Haylen]

I'm still pissed off at you, Incog. >.>

[Incognito]

Ugh. This game.

I'd like to echo the comments that were made by others: a semi-open game should almost certainly contain ALL of the possible roles that could exist in the game. There was a Nurse, an SK, AND a Framer (instead of a Tailor) in this game when none of those roles were listed as possible role PMs. I understand that this was probably done because of the cr3t1n "persona" but yeah. Otherwise, I thought the set-up was rather interesting; it's funny how my last three mini Normals have either a) had or b) implied having multiple scum groups.

I thought the scum team of CTD and BM played really well; CTD was somewhat lurky but when he did post, he seemed rather insightful and BM just seemed really town-ish to me until the end there.

Congrats to camn -- you obviously played well. :P

I'm fairly happy with the fact that I was able to read Haylen (before Kdub's claim), Yosarian2, randomlunatic (at least early on), and Kdub correctly in this game.

And I have to say that I really, really enjoyed playing with both Rai and Kdub. I usually play with new

er

players in Newbie games rather than Minis, and I never really know what kind of behavior to expect from them. I think the both of you played really really well and seemed to have good heads on your shoulders. You did your 2009 era proud.

-~-~-~

Aaaand, sorta like CTD, this will probably be one of the last games I play for awhile (I have one game that's currently ongoing and then I don't plan on signing up for more until next summer most likely). Thanks for making this a good one.

[Haylen]

Yeah, i sucked, and I know it. Question though: did my 'craplogic' case become not craplogic when it was proven right? what are your opinions on craplogic now?

My conclusions from this game are: you are all Mastin alts and should therefore lose having been disqualified and I should win by default....and that is how town actually won in cr3t1n's...

[Incognito]

Haylen: which case in particular?

[Haylen]

umm...all of them. My one against CTD in particular, which was illogical but correct.

[ortolan]

who is cr3t1n?

it's a cool alt

[Yosarian2]

umm...all of them. My one against CTD in particular, which was illogical but correct.

Well, if I remember correctly, you spent a pretty big part of the game attacking me and Phoebus.

[camn]

Yeah, i sucked, and I know it. Question though: did my 'craplogic' case become not craplogic when it was proven right? what are your opinions on craplogic now?.

I would like to address this, in a non argumentative way.

A lot of your arguments for ME being scum seemed to be my connection with other people... especially Incog, IIRC.
As I flipped 3rd Party, I clearly HAD no connections with other people.

Thus, although you were correct in me being anti-town.. due to the fact that your arguments were unsound, you had no way to convince anyone of it.. and I was therefore not lynched.
For instance.. you could never convince Incog on those grounds, right? Or anyone else who simply disagrees with

THAT POINT

.
Furthermore.. I don't even think that THAT was your real reason for thinking I was scum. I think it was gut, plain and simple.

NOW, I am not saying playing by gut is bad... I do it A LOT.. and I think people tend to even believe in some people's gut reads.....
But if you don't admit to it being a gut-read.. and instead setup a "case" that doesn't hold water.. then right or wrong, you will fail.

And being "right" doesn't amount to much if you lose.

SO that is my thought on this so-called "craplogic".
It doesn't work with experienced players.. and in a boy-who-cried-wolf way, can actually make GOOD arguments LESS effective later on in the game.
I think it is better, and more honest, and more pro-town, to admit to gut-reads if you don't have cases with sound logical basis.

ps.. wasn't this your dying scumlist? Since you are claiming 'itoldyouguys!!'

ok...
camn - scum

(SK)

Incog - scum

(town)

Kdub - maybe scum

(town)

No mafia there! just little ol' me! And the last 2 townies standing!

[Incognito]

umm...all of them. My one against CTD in particular, which was illogical but correct.

Well, if you're referring to your extra long post, you made cases against practically everyone in the game at one time. You can't call the whole game "scum" and then claim that you were correct all along and should have been listened to -- obviously by accusing everyone of being scum you're going to be right about a small subset of people but wrong about a much larger subset of people.

---

Re: Your case against CTD - I think your "case" against CTD basically amounted to what you thought to be an abnormal level of tunnel-vision that you wouldn't expect to come from town; your thinking was probably: "he has been attacking me since he first entered the game, I know I'm town, he doesn't seem to be making an effort to figure out my alignment and only seems to want to get me lynched, therefore he must be scum", but you didn't phrase it in that way.

Would I consider this "crap logic"? No, I don't think I would, and I think it's actually a fairly legitimate frame of thinking, but I think you need to work on your delivery. Keep in mind that it's very difficult to convince other people that you're correct when

a)

a large majority of the people either think you're scum or have lingering suspicions of you being scum and

b)

you're accusing everyone of being scum, which makes it really difficult to take your accusations seriously since everything you say begins to look very self-preservationist and unrealistic.

[CrashTextDummie]

Psh, Haylen's case against me was obviously bogus since I was an absolute saint in this game. >_>

[cr3t1n]

Yosarian, Phoebus, randomlunatic, Haylen, Green Crayons and Ether received the following role pms:

u r a vaniller towny
u win wen all the scum r ded including traiters

Kdub received the following role pm:

u r a cop
u can try 2 find out if sum1 is mafier or not by asking me each nite
u win wen all the scum r ded including traiters

Rai received the following role pm:

u r a nurse
u becum a docter wen a docter dyes
wen u r a docter can try 2 protect sum1 from dying by telling me hoo u want 2 protect each nite but u cant protect urself
u win wen all the scum r ded including traiters

Incognito received the following role pm:

u r a miller
wen a cop targetts u i will tell the cop that u r mafier lol
u win wen all the scum r ded including traiters

CrashTextDummy received the following role pm:

u r a exelent mafier framer with Battle Mage
the exlenent mafier can talk 2 each other n try 2 kill sum1 each nite
u can also frame sum1 each nite n if a cop targetts them that nite i will tell the cop that they r mafier
u win wen only exelent mafier r alive

Battle Mage received the following role pm:

u r a exelent mafier godfather with Idiotking
the exlenent mafier can talk 2 each other n try 2 kill sum1 each nite
u cant dye at nite
u win wen only exelent mafier r alive

camn received the following role pm:

u r a serial killer
u can try 2 kill 1 person each nite
u cant dye at nite
u win wen only u r alive n ever1 else is ded

[camn]

I am really an honest person! really!

Hey.

Am I allowed to NOT use my night choice?

thanks.

oops i 4got 2 say

u hav 2 try n kill sum1 evry nite

[cr3t1n]

No more cr3t1n-speak.

Firstly, congratulations to camn!
Many thanks to the replacements and Ether for her help there.
To anyone who felt hard done by the setup, I'm sorry. I am very disappointed by that.
I'm glad most of you seemed to have enjoyed playing the game regardless.
I appreciate the effort everyone put into the game!

I feel too insecure to argue either way about the setup's balance. But I can at least say what the idea of including roles outside the OP list was. I thought it provided the SK an advantage they might otherwise lack in an open setup as well as doing something slightly left-field and interesting with a "normal" setup. I realised that having that unlisted role alone was probably overcompensating, so I included extra roles in each of the other factions that I hoped would clue them into the fact that there would be extra roles in the setup.

Ether commented after she died that the town was underpowered and could have done with some Masons or something. That might have been better than the nurse (and the Miller (=/)) in that it wouldn't hint at a (non-existent) doc AND it would mean two town players instead of one that knew roles outside the list existed.

I feel I should explain that cr3t1n is someone from another website that I thought would make an amusing member on ms. So, the original isn't me, I just borrowed him.

[cr3t1n]

Lol. Yep, camn was telling the truth... that time.

[camn]

I actually had a whole strategy planned with me withholding my kills.. I even fake-breadcrumbed Miller just in case I got a guilty verdict on me.....I wanted to just get to the end and drop the unanticipated nightkill on somebody....
But I can't complain. Killing GC was fitting.

re:balance..
I think it just swung hard.
No crosskills, no scumlynch, a successful frame, no guilty verdicts.....Kdub's role was worse than useless, given his bad luck in choices....plus, I forgot that both town and scum had a CLUE that there could be unlisted roles.......so that part seems fair to me!
So.. I'm no balance-pro, but I think it was swingy, and could have easy swung town. A scumlynch/kill and a real guilty verdict ANY TIME would have been helpful.

But i am just happy to win!

Yay!

[Incognito]

One thing I *am* pretty happy about that came from this game was that I played the Miller role in a somewhat "unconventional" way by not claiming Miller during Day 1 or in my first post as is normally suggested and still managed to be believed by the majority of the town when I

did

actually claim. I laughed pretty hard when I opened my role though -- Yosarian2 was Miller in vollkan's Mafia in Ludd game and I gave him a bit of a hard time for claiming during Day 1, so I felt hard-pressed to play this game without resorting to claiming early.

[MeMe]

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