Mini 776: End of the World Zombie Survivors Mafia: Abandoned

[semioldguy]

It was kind of funny. Lighten up. So, are you saying that it's scummy or just that you don't like it?

I don't think it's scummy, just personal preference.

[gorckat]

Shinnen_No_Me has not posted and has not picked up the prod (he actually appears to have flaked, only posting once on-site after he posted in our game here).

Therefore, Shinnen_No_Me is being replaced.

[Amished]

I thought the "pseudovote" was particularly clear, and an elegant solution. Personally I never use FoS's as I view them to be rather worthless, but that's just me. Also letting people stay alive for a bit if the gun hasn't been used is anything *but* scummy, so that argument is crap as well. A lynch *is* a lynch, but we're also throwing away a possibility to kill scum, an anti-town player, or somebody that's unhelpful that can throw suspicions away from scum D2. Your lynch happy attitude towards this is scummy in my eyes, and is the biggest scum tell I've seen in this game so far.

Vote: Lowell

[Lowell]

Since when does DGB care about being hasty?

[Diamondilium]

I think that was a loaded question by Herodotus. Neither (a) or (b) is necessarily the best answer.

I think you mean "false dilemma" rather than "loaded question." Those are probably not be the only possibilities, though my phrasing could be taken to suggest that they are. TBH, I can't think of any more sensible options under those conditions, but if anyone has any, they should share. I just wanted to see Lowell's response first.

At this point, I don't know how to interpret Lowell's answer in 116. "Who cares, a lynch is a lynch" is such a

stereotypically

scummy thing to say, I would normally think it was WIFOM written by scum or a jester.

However in the context of the question I was asking, it may have been intended either as meaning the answer I called (a), or offering some third option. I wish he'd been more clear, but it's a little late for that now since later answers are less useful than first responses.

But to review, he originally non-random voted me over a suggestion that would help prevent us from losing the chance to use the gun kill constructively, and used absolutely horrible logic in doing so. (It's too confusing? Then what are you doing playing mafia? Do you vote first thing in LYLO because it's too confusing to remember not to?) Then in post 113, he has ignored my post 108, and maybe even insinuates that it's my fault that no one is voting* -- even though my suggestion only applies after a player has 5 votes on them. This made me think he might be scum.

* I'm not sure whether that was his intent, but the more I analyze post 113, the more it seems to be the case.

I generally try to avoid placing OMGUS votes in case I'm subconsciously biased, but Lowell looks scummy.

Vote: Lowell

Bolded: I'm not following you here; what makes Lowell's answer stereotypically scummy?

Also, IMO bad logic isn't necessarily scummy. In many situations, poor logic simply indicates a poor thought process. However, in some cases poor logic can be used intentionally to push forward scummy actions. I dont think that's the case here.

[semioldguy]

Since when does DGB care about being hasty?

I doubt OozingGolfBall is DGB's alt. Not only is OozingGolfBall listed as male, but I'd credit DGB to come up with more creative/fun alt names like she has in the past. Either way I don't think we should assume the two to be the same player just yet.

[Lowell]

Uh, so somone used the same image and most of the name? Somone has a DGB fettish?

Jesus this site is dumb.

[Diamondilium]

Lowell, do you still find Herodotus scummy for the you listed before?

[Diamondilium]

EBWOP:
...Hero scummy for the *reasons* you listed...

[Gateway]

I am convinced Lowell is either dumb scum, anti-town, or a joker (which I hear many mods won't use so I'll ignore that option)

I feel confident a few more votes may get tagged on to him, before we let him get to L-1 lets try to find another target as well.

Will try to focus my attention elsewhere after a reread tonight. Hero, SOG, and Diamond have all three been people I've noticed adding to the conversation a lot, so I would like to hear your three opinions of other options as well. (if they were stated in the last page ignore this and I will catch it when I really read it tonight, instead of skim today.)

Replaced by kieraen

[Herodotus]

...

At this point, I don't know how to interpret Lowell's answer in 116. "Who cares, a lynch is a lynch" is such a

stereotypically

scummy thing to say, I would normally think it was WIFOM written by scum or a jester.

However in the context of the question I was asking, it may have been intended either as meaning the answer I called (a), or offering some third option. I wish he'd been more clear, but it's a little late for that now since later answers are less useful than first responses.

But to review, he originally non-random voted me over a suggestion that would help prevent us from losing the chance to use the gun kill constructively, and used absolutely horrible logic in doing so. (It's too confusing? Then what are you doing playing mafia? Do you vote first thing in LYLO because it's too confusing to remember not to?) Then in post 113, he has ignored my post 108, and maybe even insinuates that it's my fault that no one is voting* -- even though my suggestion only applies after a player has 5 votes on them. This made me think he might be scum.

* I'm not sure whether that was his intent, but the more I analyze post 113, the more it seems to be the case.

I generally try to avoid placing OMGUS votes in case I'm subconsciously biased, but Lowell looks scummy.

Vote: Lowell

Bolded: I'm not following you here; what makes Lowell's answer stereotypically scummy?

Also, IMO bad logic isn't necessarily scummy. In many situations, poor logic simply indicates a poor thought process. However, in some cases poor logic can be used intentionally to push forward scummy actions. I dont think that's the case here.

If, during the normal course of the game, it seemed that a player didn't care about who was lynched, or wanted to get the day over with rather than scumhunt, I would consider that person suspicious. The phrases "who cares" and "a lynch is a lynch," if taken out of context, would suggest such an attitude. If Lowell didn't seem to intend them to be some indirect answer to the question I asked, that's how I would interpret them. So in other circumstances, I would be trying to figure out why someone was intentionally attributing a scummy attitude to himself. My conclusion would probably be that it was anti-town WIFOM. In this case, though, I don't consider them a tell in that sense. My vote on him is not based on his post 116, though I still haven't decided whether it was a coherent answer to the question I asked.

To your second point, I agree. Lowell may not be scum, but at this point he's more likely than anyone else. I'd need to see a lot more from everyone before I'd feel comfortable lynching him.
Just before posting this, I noticed Gateway's last post which sort of assumes that a lynch/vig of Lowell is necessarily going to happen. I disagree, obviously. We have 2 weeks left for (presumably) 2 kills.

[semioldguy]

I disagree with Herodotus on several points so far this game. But I know that just because I disagree with someone doesn't make that person scum. The points I don't agree with I see as just being because the two of us look at the game differently. I'll be keeping my eye on him for that reason. I wouldn't be surprised if Herodotus said the same about me in regards to our different play styles/views (He more or less has a time or two already). I generally get a pro-town feeling from him.

Vote: Musher333

I haven't really seen anything of real substance come from him yet. His posts have either been following or agreeing with others. Also his thought process here:

... use our own voting system to decide someone to gun before we lynched someone allowing two lynches in one day.

I strongly disagree with this. I don't think we should ever rely on our own voting system. Just use normal votes because it's the best way to hold people accountable for them and doesn't assume that the gunner will automatically go with the town majority (which may or may not appear to be the best option at the time).

Also it appears to me that you are staying just active enough to get by but not really add anything to the game and I would like to see this change.

[Rishi]

So, I am not sure why so much attention is focused on Lowell. I've played with him a couple times before and modded him in completed games. He ALWAYS plays like this. His behavior is a null-tell.

I think a lot of people are going after him because he's an easy target.

[Lowell]

Thanks rishi. And FTR, I don't think my play is particularly anti-town in ANY of my games. I usually have an opinion. I usually state it relatively clearly.

[Herodotus]

He ALWAYS plays like this. His behavior is a null-tell.

Well, I've seen that before. In my first game Empking tunneled on Artem using very poor logic. Artem warned us about Empking's playstyle, but we lynched Empking anyways.
I suppose it's time to read some of Lowell's past games to confirm his playstyle.
Still, I'm concerned that he finds it too complicated to use the tactic I suggested. I can foresee him either (as town) unintentionally causing damage with a poorly placed vote, and potentially compounding that damage by getting himself mislynched for it, or (as scum) using this as an excuse to intentionally cause the same damage, and potentially compounding that damage by not being held accountable. That's partly why I asked whether he would vote someone right away to L-1.

[Amished]

I'm only in one game with Lowell (ongoing, both alive, no conclusions can be drawn) and while he's similar, his (lack of) logic and poor reasoning both want me to avoid having to deal with his bad posting style in the odd chance that we make it to a LyLo together. If he keeps making it through nights, there's all sorts of wifom for anybody and it'd make it hard for anybody to really see his intentions, making it bad for the town. Of course, this is just how I feel, but it doesn't stop me from not wanting his type of posting and not thinking about the game around.

As he's not exactly close to a lynch, I'm not particularly worried about losing him, and I'm looking around for other suspects.

For Musher, I have 1 game played together where he was town (as was I; Newbie 731). He started off slow but did put a little more effort into that than here. It's barely noticable if at all, but it feels slightly different (for those of you wondering about his playstyle.)

[gorckat]

DrippingGoofball replaces Shinnen_No_Me

Have fun with that

DGB's name will be updated in the votecount next time I do one, later tonight or first thing in the morning.

[DrippingGoofball]

Can someone fill me in quickly on the special rules?

[Musher333]

Firstly sorry for not posting more often, i have been buzy the last few days so i haven't had a chance to come on and read this.

I feel confident a few more votes may get tagged on to him, before we let him get to L-1 lets try to find another target as well.

I disagree with this, if you find someone scummy why look for someone else straight away? I know if you keep a broader look at he game instead of being narrow minded you find more out but in this case the posts has a kind of 'Lets try and divert attention away from lowell' vibe to it, can you explain a bit why exactly you want to find 2 or more scummy people instead of one at a time as then its harder to direct questions and keep a focus on the matter at hand.

@Amished: If you didn't notice i came into the game in question at day 2 so quite a lot of discussion had already happened, i generally don't post to much at first in the game as i have nothing new to say and i try not to 'parrot' ideas as some people jump on that and say you aren't bringing anything new to the discussion.

[Rishi]

Can someone fill me in quickly on the special rules?

Hey again, DGB.

I don't think there are any special rules. Closed setup.

The only thing is the gun, which is a one-shot daykill, and was distributed by a vote. We voted for semioldguy to receive it.

Other than flavor, I don't think anything else is different from a normal Mafia game. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[Amished]

Special rules: Mostly just the one; and that's already over with. The special flavor was that we had a gun found "D1" with one bullet in it. We could vote for who this one-time use unknown alignment vig is. In our case it's Darkwing Du.. semioldguy. If the gun isn't used D1, obviously SOG has a chance of getting killed and nobody can use the gun then, so I'm basically looking at it as a one time daykill vig of alignment unknown.

On that note, welcome DGB!

Musher: I remember well. I replaced into that game as well, and you were the one agreeing with most of my points after you came in during D2. I was also semi-following that game after I was NK'd, and I wasn't entirely impressed with the town's play in general.

On the topic of why look for others, we have a 1time vig ability. While finding your top suspect (and in my and gateway's case) we're also voting for them. Since we (as a whole) have a one-time use daykill ability, I in particular am looking for others being scummy for two reasons. 1) To see if somebody more scummy than Lowell pops up and warrants my vote for them and 2) to see if I find somebody that I feel worthy enough to daykill and compare/contrast that to what SOG chooses to help me decide what SOG was thinking with his kill and therefore hope to give me a clue as to his alignment.

--

Meh, Rishi gave a more concise answer than mine about the "specialness" of our game.

[Diamondilium]

I am convinced Lowell is either dumb scum, anti-town, or a joker (which I hear many mods won't use so I'll ignore that option)

I feel confident a few more votes may get tagged on to him, before we let him get to L-1 lets try to find another target as well.

Will try to focus my attention elsewhere after a reread tonight. Hero, SOG, and Diamond have all three been people I've noticed adding to the conversation a lot, so I would like to hear your three opinions of other options as well. (if they were stated in the last page ignore this and I will catch it when I really read it tonight, instead of skim today.)

While I don't agree that Lowell is going to garner enough votes to be the vig target just yet I'm reading town on Gateway for this. He seems to be over eager- something I would expect from a townie. I considered the possibility of him being scum rushing to the night by essentially trying to confirm this early that Lowell will be the target, but that doesn't seem likely. His overzealousness is consistent with his actions before we were able to cast lynching votes thus making it seem less likely that his eager behavior is about rushing to the night. Also in many cases the newer players will tend to be more eager than experienced players, and Gateway has acknowledged that he is not that experienced.

@Hero, If your not voting Lowell for post 116 then why exactly are you voting? Could you please list all of your reasons?

Also, Lowell, please answer my question in posts 132-133.

[Herodotus]

@Hero, If your not voting Lowell for post 116 then why exactly are you voting? Could you please list all of your reasons?

I tried to explain my reasoning in post 122. I'm not sure if a list format is the best way to handle it, but here goes. It's that:
1. He's using very poor logic to pursue a case.
2. He's opposing what I consider to be the ideal strategy for the town on the basis that it's a confusing restriction, and shortens our available time, when I've already explained why it's none of those.
3. By calling it confusing to stop real-voting at L-2, he might be laying a foundation to act confused and deny SOG the opportunity to use the gun.
4. In post 113, he seems to suggest that I was the reason no one was voting because either my strategy, or the fact that I was discussing strategy, was "being anti-town by delaying the process of trying to get someone lynched." In fact, there was nothing about my idea that prevented voting (up to the point of 5 votes on one player,) and if he's so anxious to make a lynch, then he should support having what is effectively two lynches -- especially since the first may make the second more effective.
One new reason:
5. A vote can serve the extra purpose of being an in-game prod. He hasn't said much other than his case on me. Four of his nine posts so far have contained anything meaningful, and three of those fall into the categories of my other reasons for voting him. Other people have posted less, but he's earned a spotlight.

[semioldguy]

Can someone fill me in quickly on the special rules?

What do you think of your evil twin in this game... OozingGolfBall?

[Lowell]

@diamnond- yes. yes I do.