Nathanael #1361 wrote:And Parama and SensFan are scum.
I obviously agree about Parama, but not SensFan. Don't get me wrong, I don't think there is anything townish about the way he is acting, but I can't see him and Parama being scum together. On day one, SensFan tried to execute chesskid3. It was also in response to SensFan's criticism that chesskid3 jumped and began to attract attention. This makes no sense to me if they were both scum. I can't see them orchestrating something like this, especially when they were already involved in some sort of gambit with Jack's Consulmaker claim.
Out of the two of them, I find Parama much more likely to be scum, and therefore SensFan should be town. Annoying and useless town, but still town. I would much rather see Parama executed than SensFan.
Nathanael #1361 wrote:I'm a little wary about Feysal too. As much as I like his defense on me, the last time I did such a full blown point-by-point defense on someone else, I was scum. Don't know if this means anything, but I think it should be said.
We've only played in one game before that I know of, and you were killed on the first night, so you have no experience to judge me by, or vice versa. I simply believe you to be town very strongly. I have said that the case on you is garbage, but to name an actual reason for you to be town, that would be first vetoing and then trying to execute Parama. Since Parama is my top scumread, I can't see you as his partner any more than SensFan, and unlike SensFan, I agree with much of what you've done this game, and it looks town-motivated to me.
ribwich #1364 wrote:Nathaniel, are you accusing Feysal of trying to earn town points by being the one most opposed to your lynch right before the flip, or is it something else about the defense that's making you suspicious of him?
For the record, I don't believe in defending someone to be a scumtell. I would not want it to be treated as a scumtell, since that would give town players a bad incentive to not defend their town reads. Of course scum can try to obtain town credit by defending someone, which is why I don't consider it to be much of a towntell either, it is far too easily faked.
The only time I would treat defending someone as scummy is if the defender could not name any rational reasons for why the other player is town. Kind of like when you theorized Jack being town, and how only scum with inside information could know that. If scum defended town, they would also want the player they defended lynched despite their defense, which gives scum incentive to make their defenses of town half-hearted, enough to gain credit from trying but not enough for the defense to succeed.
I will leave it to you to judge whether I am looking for town credit from doing this, or whether I am genuinely trying to save someone I believe to be town.
The Fonz #1365 wrote:When I ask for delays (for example say please don't hammer yet) it's because there's a specific question I want answered TODAY, a specific person I want on the record, or a specific issue I want resolved. The glib 'more discussion' just looks like posturing.
You make sense, but when Nathanael issued his delays, he did give specific reasons. It was not just buying more time for discussion. I just noticed that Parama edited out the reasons when he quoted the posts in his case. The complete posts were these:
Nathanael #490 wrote:VETO: KATSUKI's EXECUTION
EXECUTE: KATSUKI
a little time-gain.
@everyone: I want a definite statement on whether you:
a) want the katsuki lynch
b) are comfortable with the katsuki lynch
c) are uncomfortable with the katsuki lynch
d) don't want the katsuki lynch
Nathanael #497 wrote:SensFan wrote:Nathanael wrote:VETO: KATSUKI's EXECUTION
EXECUTE: KATSUKI
a little time-gain.
Your ego just has to let me accomplish nothing today, doesn't it?
actually I just wanted a little more time to hear everybody.
PS: everybody, actually I'd like a reason for your answers too.
Nathanael #537 wrote:VETO: KATSUKI'S EXECUTION
EXECUTE: KATSUKI
I want to give replacements a little more time.
I am however willing to lynch Katsuki later.
To me, these look like townish reasons to delay, like the ones you described.
The Fonz #1365 wrote:This is a pet peeve of mine. Not finding the town explanation particularly plausible is not neglecting it.
I concede you have a point here. Especially since, on closer look, Magua specifically asked SensFan for scum motivations to delay the execution, so SensFan could have restricted himself to those in his answer. However, I have also not seen him post anything about it possibly being town-motivated.
The Fonz #1365 wrote:Is it not possible people just went along with it because deadline was nearing, though? I just feel like it's more in town's interests for Nate to take a firm position on Kat earlier than he did. Either go along with it, or make clear it's not going to happen at a point when there's time for a full discussion of other candidates. The ONLY thing Nate really achieved by vetoing and resubmitting was pushing things closer to deadline.
It is certainly possible that fatigue contributed to the discussion drying up, but I can't see why Nathanael should be blamed for that. It is also easier said than done to have a firm stance on a first day, on someone who had posted as little as Katsuki. Nathanael could have asked for opinions to help make up his mind. Finally, I'd say Nathanael achieved plenty. He got several people to take definite stances on Katsuki, including two of our flipped scum, and them agreeing with the execution is a strong reason for me to believe Magua town now. He traded Katsuki for powerrox93, and while it turned out to be a mislynch, you admitted he was an understandable player for town to execute. The one thing I cannot see is him having achieved anything that would help the scum. If he was planning to push things closer to deadline, he really did not try to take advantage of that from what I can see.
The Fonz #1365 wrote:Nate, if scum, was probably working on the basis that Dram executing scum would make Dram look town for a good few days. In that scenario, Nate probably figures, because Dramonic's got so much towncred, we can afford to bus Jack. Then Dram dies overnight, and all of a sudden the numbers game looks pretty bad for the scum.
Nate needs to hit reverse PDQ, and the only thing he's got to hang his hat on is 'scum wouldn't double bus.' Nate knows this is a poor reason, but knows from experience if he makes a bad argument and really sticks with it obstinately in the face of all possible evidence then people will assume he's just stubborn town.
The alternative is that he actually bought the 'scum won't double bus' theory, and while I've seen townies believe stranger things, it's still pretty unlikely in my eyes.
I've seen stranger things in mafia games too. You make a credible point, but I disagree on that being the best play for scum in that situation. In this setup, all the scum need is one player who has a sufficient town reputation to either be made the final Dictator, or one that is not executed by the final Dictator. This setup works differently from normal mafia in that the scum have a much higher chance of winning in endgame. I'd bet the scum plan was to make dramonic sufficiently townish with the double bus that he would be made Dictator, and he would go on to automatically win.
Because of the difference of the setup, I would say that numbers are less important to the scum in this game, and what they really need is a pro-town reputation, which would let them win by being made the final Dictator. This is an added reason why I can't see Nathanael knowingly defending scum. Even in a normal game, I think it would be the best thing for the scum to salvage what they could and bus Jack like intended, and here even more so. Nathanael should have known Jack was a lost cause, that he could never win for scum in endgame, that it was only a matter of time before Jack was executed. If he were scum, Nathanael would have hurt his own chances of winning by defending Jack, and he should have known this.
That is why I believe Nathanael more likely to be town. Defending Jack would be very bad play for scum, and so it looks more like a townie mistake to me. Informed and calculating scum should know better.
I think I have to reread that day though. If I remember right, it was SpyreX who first proposed the double bus theory clearing Jack, but I'll have to double check if he was the first.
The Fonz #1365 wrote:As for you, Feysal, I find it very hard to take you seriously when you're basically arguing that defending scum at a scumvenient point is a towntell. And I don't really see what's superscummy about Parama apart from, maybe, that he was calling your slot scum from the moment he entered. The scummiest thing I can find is the defence of Jack, but then, he's not alone in that, is he?
Thing is, like I explained above, I think it was a convenient moment for one thing only, to bus Jack.
The list of reasons why I think Parama is scum is likely too long for this post. I've made a number of points, but they're scattered around my ISO. I'll be sure to combine them into a single case before today is out.
