Mafia 98 - Apennine Mafia (Game Over)

[Battle Mage]

Unvote, Vote: Alex Hans

Serious vote. Serious wagon required.

BM

I'm sensing bullshit coming my way... The fact that you left mastin's waggon to the one who is "defending him" is noted.

Again, you consistently assume he is town. If you're a cop, you should claim now, and save us some time.

Nah, i disagree. Jammer can be Jammer. SpyreX can be Spyrex. Kairyuu can be Kairyuu. Hasdgfas can be Has. Cephrir can be Cephrir. You can be Lynchbait.

It is a way to organize things so it's easier to make searchs afterwards. Has is not a good short form, at all. Hasd is better in that case but hascow is just 2 letters longer and that joke is NOT funny because you seem intent in pulling it off.

Lol, it wouldnt be funny if i didnt actually want you dead. And if im not willing to put my money where my mouth is, i wont be a great asset to the town now, will i?

Hasdgfas is fine for a short form. Alot of the players here i dont even know. You asking everyone to abbreviate their names, is immensely unhelpful.

The flaw you have is, that any motive you give to a scumkill is automatically WIFOM. Thus, no conclusion you can draw from the kills can make a strong case.

*sigh*
You all seem to be ignoring my words... argumenting about a kill is NOT definite to finding scum. But it can provide a base from where to start. Why is people so unconfortable around this idea? WHy are YOU so against it? Because it signaled you as posible player?

Yep, i've never made any attempt to deny that it seems scummier from my perspective, because i know that the conclusion of such a policy will NOT result in a scum lynch. So of course there is an element of OMGUS. But anyone can see that it is logically flawed, and you yourself must realise that with people like you tailing Mastin like a lost little puppy dog, the rest of us are BOUND to be edgy about craplogic actually leading somewhere.
Also, argumenting isnt a word. Bet you wish i'd ignored that.

I'm usually told that setup-speculation is bad, but here we are, wondering how many scum there is and no one has said anything there was anything wrong about it.

Because it's totally and utterly, IRRELEVANT. Commenting on the number of scum we might have on Day 1, is the most pointless exercise i can imagine. Maybe look at it lately, and by all means, err on the side of caution, but your attempts to bully everyone into believing there are 4 scum, when there is no way in hell you could know that as town, have not gone unnoticed by me. What annoys me is, i cant even see a logical reason to make that argument as scum, unless you are just deliberately out to mislead at every turn, or you wanna get your chips in quick, so you can later cry "I told ya so!"

What's the HUDE deal with nk speculation then? Also, Note that I said that futher NK would not be useful because they will be probably covered with WIFOM but I think the n0 kill allows a reason...

I dunno how much clearer i can be. You're wrong. Please stop wasting everybody's time.

Did scum knew that the RVS was gonna be avoided like that? if not... why would they think of wifom?

What is the obsession with the RVS about? It's like you portray it as something bad, when in reality, it serves us just fine. Granted, this conversation has induced discussion, but if it wasnt for Mastin, you wouldnt be in this position right now. Maybe you should think again as to whether his plan was quite so good.

Personally speaking, i only left the RVS with my vote for you. I expect the vast majority are still there, because you dont have anywhere near enough votes.

It's really wierd how you are desperate to push the 4 scum theory, but it is in the interests of the town anyway to promote cautiousness.

Ok... this kind of posts always scream scummy to me. This is called SOFT-PUSHING or SOFT-IMPLYING or whatever. You agree with me in the quid of the matter but still call me "weird" for it. Weird is used when you want others to think... oh...

if it's weird it must be scummy...

Uncool tactic.

Pure, unadulterated OMGUS. It's probably the one nice comment i made about you. If you wanna have a strop about it, knock yourself out.

Ask any other player here if they find your consistent protests about the number of scum wierd, and every single one (probably even your buddies, if they have any sense) will agree with me.

You're just squirming now. lol

What's with all the rhetorical questions??

I know SF has a strong personality. I'm just testing the waters. What's wrong with them, anyway? are you just adding fluff to an otherwise lame case?

I'm pointing out that you arent really acting in a protown manner. Rhetorical questions are a classic method of persuasion-you arent trying to find scum, you are trying to make someone look scummier than they actually are. You do it again here. You're trying to come across as an aggressive townie, but it's pretty apparent that it is just a front.

The kill would be most likely to come from someone who knows hascow. Furthermore, I believe that a senior player on the scum team would have more sway and would help direct the kill toward someone like hascow, as opposed to someone a newer person might be more inclined to kill based on overall site rep alone.

I agree with this.

Convenient? Whats your relationship with Hasdgfas?

I'd appreciate if you read what I said a long time ago before asking that SAME question.

I've played with Hascow before and he was not a very active scum player... at least in that game. Maybe it was because the town had 80 % of lynchable material (Empking, Zwets, Dejkha, Wall-e and Hewitt). Anyway... If I had to kill... knowing there were no protections whatsoever... I would've killed... sensfan? Mastin?

someone random that I don't know?

Probably I wouldn't have had a voice in a scumteam....

Lmfao.

Confirm Vote: Alex

You cant seriously try and tell me that you believe this Mastin bullcrap is consistent with your own confession-that you might have killed someone random who you dont know? xD

2) I say that I would probably have no voice on a scumteam so that means that there's no kill that could rule me out or make me townier because it wouldnt probably be my choice.

Aww, arent you CUTE!
So modest. *pinches cheek*

Trying to appear pro-town, whilst not actually saying anything.

BM... you're really starting to annoy me and you're really starting to look like trying to fake a case instead of actually scumhunting.

Admittedly, sometimes i do that. I get fixated on someone, and go a little overboard. But, i'm feelin pretty happy with my vote atm.

I said the whole healthy thing to avoid a Sensfan flame up for nothing. We are not going to lynch him, you or whoever just for a nk theory.

Haha, dont kid yourself bro. YOU aren't going to lynch ME, full stop.

Possibly the least intelligent thing i have ever read. ^

Why coach Zach? And who is Steph?

^ Possibly the less useless comment I've ever heard.

Please have the courtesy of quoting the entire backlog of conversation. I have a life outside of the game, and making me go back and read extra every time i come on, is not very friendly.

Ftr, i do apologise if i offended you on a personal level. I just get really annoyed when people say stuff that is clearly wrong. When i disagree with you, just back down, and we'll get on fine. *hugs*

If you had meta-ed me... you would find that I usually try to coach everyone into playing in a way wich I think is the optimal way... I may be mistaken but it's what I think is good. A player can take it or leave it.

Got a link for me here?

In any case, my vote was not without reason. Mastin came right out of the gate pushing an argument that was not only completely illogical, but was also likely to lead to the lynch of AT LEAST 1, and possibly 3 or 4, townies. What do you expect me to do?

Ok. I didnt take it that seriously but I guess it's somewhat valid to vote for him. But... would you lynch him for it?

If i intended to lynch him for it, you'd think i'd still be voting for him now, no?

Active and great player, as he may be, it doesnt mean he is town

I know

, or worth keeping around.

I wouldn't be so sure about that as I've explained before.

I guess if your argument is that he will be readable later in the game, then yes, there is merit to keeping him around. But that isnt what you said. By that token, you should be voting for VP Baltar. I seem to recall you saying that he was unreadable.

Nor does it make people who are suspicious of him, automatically scummy.

No, BUT, I think one may always sense if a vote is forced or not. Benmage's vote, for example, sounded forced to me.

Benmage seems ok to me.

The only way you can claim that Mastin destroyed the RVS, is if you assume that he is scum, and/or the wagon on him is legitimate. You don't seem to believe this, thus you cannot claim that we have left the RVS.

what??? I don't follow your logic that the only way in wich RVS was destroyed is if mastin is scum... Could you rephrase it in a way a 5 year old could understand?

Ok. In terms of votes, what Mastin achieved, instead of a random selection of reasonless votes, was a wagon on himself. Now, if you dont think that wagon was legit, then effectively, we are no better off than we would have been with the random stage. If you believe Mastin has destroyed the RVS, then you are, by definition, acknowledging that the wagon on Mastin is valuable, and most probably, that he is scum.

How many times have you played with Mastin? I've gotta admit, he strikes me as the kinda guy who probably attracts more attention than he deserves, not the other way around. Why then, should it be wierd that he would get that attention here. In a game of this size, a 3rd vote is nothing, yet you appear to have shat a brick.

Is it because Mastin is your scumchum, or more likely, because he is town, who you feel can be manipulated?

woah... Loaded questions... (Bolded for emphasis)
"Are you scum because of A or are you scum because of B?"

Brain explodes...

Ugh, awkward. I actually giggled out loud when i read this. *facepalm*

1) I know it's wifom but thinking I would defend a scumpartner on D1 with such a great enthusiasm is underestimating me. Greatly.
2) While this is not totally unthinkable. I know that defending a player doens't help to go unnoticed and you may get heat for it (like YOUR F%&% senseless Vote!). I've learned that scum is safer being mild on the first stages of the game and then attacking with "great" and "bombastic" cases faking conviction. Also, I DONT think Mastin is so easyly influenciable. And why would I feel the need to manipulate him when he is throwing flowers in my direction before I do?

1. I know. If it makes you feel better, ive concluded that this probably isnt the case.
2. Maybe you dont want to manipulate him. Maybe you just really want to keep him alive. Who doesnt love flowers?

btw, BM, when did you stop beating your wife?

When she got a restraining order. How the f*** did you know about that?!?!?

Thats funny, because you did the exact same thing with Mastin, and myself. The only difference is, it appears you were being serious

Oh... so you were joking? that explains your sudden change to an Alexhans vote...

It wasnt a complete joke. But it wasnt a vote i was intending to keep for long without any more developments.

Can you please explain the bit in bold?

"If you dont Help Dont criticize"
there's a way to critic constructively that has an intended goal. There's another that only creates violence. We should avoid the latter. This is a game after all and I don't want to get worked up like I did before. Flaming me to get reactions is not a valid recourse. I will just ignore you and I advise anyone else to do the same. Let's play, inspect, scumhunt, retort and all that jazz... but keep up the positiviness so we can make it an enjoyable experience.[/quote]

*nods*

Damnit bro. Could you BE any more transparent? I'm intrigued to hear what Mastin makes of this. You quite clearly KNOW that Mastin is town, because you wouldnt defend your buddy like this. What i dont understand is the passion behind it. Are you and Mastin a couple irl?

So... what I get from this is...
1) You've JUST STATED Mastin is town by saying I KNOW mastin is town.
2) You think I'm scum buddying up to mastin (fail, you're more plain than I am for thinking that a defense means someone is scum).

1. Its an assumption im making, based on the premise that you are scum.
2. You admitted above that defending someone looks scummy. Ive been nailed for it in the past, so if you're town, you have my sympathy. But, your buddying is based on nothing, and is completely illogical. You've basically decided he is town off the bat, and then used that claim to lead your suspicions.

Maybe if you quit whinging and listen to the points against Mastin with an open mind, you might fare better in the game.

I don't understand you... You accuse me of buddying a TOWN mastin but then you coach me to open my mind?

If you're town, you should see what i see. Or thats how i view things anyway.

Will reply to the rest later, when i have more time.

BM

[VP Baltar]

If you're a cop, you should claim now, and save us some time.

First, this is a mountainous set up. There are only goons and vanilla. Second, if we did have powerroles, this is a horrible idea and is blatantly you rolefishing.

Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage

[GIEFF]

Are you so sure alex is scum that you are willing to carry that assumption to the second level, guessing others' alignment through the prism of alex-scum?

haha, you make it sound so scary. I'm capable of thinking 2 moves ahead, if thats what you're actually asking. Wink
At the very least, we want an Alex claim here.

It IS scary. The last time I saw somebody make nested assumptions like that, he was scum. It's much easier for scum to pretend to look a step ahead, because they are ALREADY SURE of the first step (i.e. sure of player 1's alignment, so they pretend to use that assumption to make "guesses" about others' alignments, whereas townies would NOT make these nested assumptions so readily, especially not so early in the game). Sensfan may remember mykonian doing this in (Mini 738):

Panzers townyness is now only implied by you being scum.

And I think you would agree that you are saying Mastin's towniness is

only

implied by alex being scum, no? Please correct that assumption if it is wrong. You have said nothing positive about Mastin, yet you are suddenly completely convinced he is town, just because alex defended him so strongly? I don't buy it.

[camn]

This shoots down camn's "integrity" theory, which seemed awfully contrived.

Camn, do you still want to leave the door open for a return to VP Baltar for these reasons, or will you take a firmer stand?

I have been looking forward to playing with you again! Now I remember why.

1) that does NOT shoot down my theory... until I examine the playerlist of said game. If there is no one VP thinks hurts the game on it.. then It still stands!

but

2) I will not pursue VP on those grounds again. It was a good enough theory for a FIRST POST non-random vote.. but not good enough for much else.

UNVOTE

I follow this alex-bm battle with interest.

[GIEFF]

If it doesn't shoot down your theory, why won't you pursue VP on those grounds? Just to appease me? If you think your theory may be valid, and your goal is to catch scum, why would you drop it simply because I do NOT think it is valid?

And while I appreciate the compliment, that's the second time you've made a buddying statement to me, and you have also made one toward Battle Mage. Scummy, scummy, scummy. I'm not here to make friends.

Happy birthday!

[camn]

A) I told you why I wont use it. It is weaksauce.

B) I >AM < here to make friends. Check my meta if you want to build a case on those grounds.

[GIEFF]

Check my meta if you want to build a case on those grounds.

• Mini 803 - you were scum. Oddly enough, you actually attack people more than once for buddying up, but do no buddying at all yourself. In fact, you are actually pretty abrasive, calling people poor players.
  
  You did buddy once, though,
  to town-porkens
  
  
  
• Open 188 - You were my scumbuddy. You didn't know a lot of people, but weren't abrasive, and buddied up to ME, your scumbuddy. Actually, my moniker comes from your buddying in this post, which is part of why I am suspicious of you doing it again.
  
  
• Saving Nasubi - You were town. You were abrasive. I don't see any buddying in this game, but if I missed some, let me know.
  
  
• Open 122 - You were town, and a bit abrasive initially. I don't see any buddying in this game, but if I missed some, let me know.
  
  
• Mini 771 - You were town. No buddying I can see. Mildly abrasive.
  
  
• Medeival mafia - you were town. Mildly abrasive. Buddying to Korejora. Buddying towards Xyl. Possibly more buddying, as I didn't check all 10 pages.

By abrasive, I sort of mean the opposite of buddying (i.e. you are NOT playing to make friends), and by buddying, I mean giving compliments that are not directly game-related.



So I'd say that buddying is more consistent with your scum-meta than your town-meta, wouldn't you?

[camn]

No, I wouldn't.
YOU sir, are starting to reek of selective-reading here.

First off.. in Mini 803, everyone there actually WERE my buddies! So I buddy them all!

Our game (Open 188) .. that was brilliant, wasn't it! When I flipped, nobody suspected you!
You were brilliant that game. there is no doubting it.

Now, my town games......
Let me point out whom I buddied with in each game.. and PLEASE explain to me why you are only noticing in my scum games?


Saving Nasubi -Everyone..

DGB, I am going to allow you a LITTLE bit of soft-claiming... but that is because I like you.

YOu know I will lynch you, right Zwet? I like you, but that doesn't mean you need to live.

Tenchi.. I am going to do my best to run you up to a lynch.....
PS.. I like your picture.

And thats only, like 2/3 of the way through!

Open 122 -Spyrex.. mostly

Anyway, I hope Spyrex gets into this game more. I was thinking about him last night, that I have enjoyed playing with him in the past.

SpyreX - Town who I love.

VP Balthar comes out like a good replacement. I think town. If he is scum, we will see a scum-win, I think.

Mini 771- Incog, though I was only alive one day! Plus I buddied the SK that killed me

My loyalty remains with Incog.

You are my favorite again.
Xylthixlm is out.

Incog was right... I was annoyed. (That why I like him.. he understands me!)

Unvote : Green Crayons

You rule.

Medeival mafia - you already pointed some out. here they are for everyone else....

God you are the greatest replacement ever. This IS a total cluster.

You are my favorite player ever, as of now.


Sorry, Incog.

And trust me.. I practically MAKE OUT with Tarlahindur by the end of that game.

And to add some..
In Mini 799 (AS TOWN) -
Alexhans will attest.. I buddy VP a lot.

more camn and Baltar irrelevant chatter. They should get married...

awww, will you pick out my dress? Smile

Sure... But only if I get an invitation. Razz

So there. I easily found great examples of me buddying in a ton of my TOWN games..

Questions: why did you ignore these examples?
Is that not the definition of a crap-case?
Did you even read the games?

Especially knowing most people will take your word for it, and not actually hunt down the meta themselves.... I could see this working! You just got served, cuz I actually DO love everyone!

(except the people on my grudgekill list.)

Hmm.
re-

Vote : Gieff

For trying to shove a crapcase down my throat just cuz I like to be nice.
And stop calling me 'abrasive'!
I am sweet as a summer day!

[camn]

oops.. Sorry.. FTR, in Medieval...KORE was the best replacement ever.. XLY was my new favorite.

(Though right now I have a girl-crush on OJANEN.)

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Mastin (3): Zachrulez, GIEFF, Benmage
jammer (2): Kairyuu, SensFan
Battle Mage (2): Mastin, VP Baltar
GIEFF (2): jammer, camn
broomhead (1): alexhans
Cephrir (1): Debonair Danny DiPietro
alexhans (1): Battle Mage


Not Voting: Cephrir, broomhead, SpyreX

8 to lynch

[GIEFF]

I skimmed all of those games, which I picked randomly. I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat. You asked me to look into your meta, so I did. Why are you reacting so strongly?

[Kairyuu]

I actually managed to forget about this game. My apologies. Will try to post tomorrow before work.

[Battle Mage]

At the very least, we want an Alex claim here.

What do you think the results of this forced claim would be?

At this point, i wouldnt put anything past him.

BM

[Battle Mage]

If you're a cop, you should claim now, and save us some time.

First, this is a mountainous set up. There are only goons and vanilla. Second, if we did have powerroles, this is a horrible idea and is blatantly you rolefishing.

Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage

*facepalm*

I'm well aware of the setup thanks. Whether Alex was or not, im not so sure. Why would you not let the trap play out?

BM

[VP Baltar]

If that is your idea of a trap BM, then it's pretty lame. I want to reread this interaction between you two sometime today and get a little better feel for what each of you are arguing.

[Battle Mage]

If that is your idea of a trap BM, then it's pretty lame. I want to reread this interaction between you two sometime today and get a little better feel for what each of you are arguing.

Lame? maybe. Scummy? Wtf.

Please explain your vote on me.

BM

[camn]

I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat.

Not only is it not strong, it is totally incorrect! It isn't factual in any way. and your meta-investigation failed!

Admit it!

Say, "camn is wonderful!! A game without her is a step toward an empty abyss."

[GIEFF]

Masking your over-reaction with a joke, I see. You even went so far as to edit out the part of my quote that mentioned your over-reaction.

skimmed all of those games, which I picked randomly. I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat. You asked me to look into your meta, so I did. Why are you reacting so strongly?

If you think I am trying to twist the past to fabricate a case on you, why the joke? In your games as town, you were abrasive (for lack of a better word) towards those you thought were scum.

Not only is it not strong, it is totally incorrect! It isn't factual in any way. and your meta-investigation failed!

It didn't fail at all - I learned a lot reading your games.

[jammer]

Because I didnt want to lose my broomhead vote... I want the guy to stop lurking or to appear and react. I can't have 2 votes so I stated my opinions in a clear way and I Fosed him. It's good enough for me. He will have to answer. Can anyone doubt that I find him scummy atm?

Voting off lurkers is more important then voting scummy players? Where is your priority?

I skimmed all of those games, which I picked randomly. I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat. You asked me to look into your meta, so I did. Why are you reacting so strongly?

Then why list them after this quote? Seems you where building a case with that quote in front.

Check my meta if you want to build a case on those grounds.

I'm well aware of the setup thanks. Whether Alex was or not, im not so sure. Why would you not let the trap play out?

BM

Do you think the "If you're cop, claim now" trick has a high rate of succes?

[GIEFF]

I skimmed all of those games, which I picked randomly. I do not think my "case" (I wouldn't even call it that) is strong, and I am not shoving it down your throat. You asked me to look into your meta, so I did. Why are you reacting so strongly?

Then why list them after this quote? Seems you where building a case with that quote in front.

Check my meta if you want to build a case on those grounds.

It's not a "case" as I'm not trying to show that she is scum and urging people to get on her wagon. One observation of scummy behavior does not a case make.

[Benmage]

I'm back, skimmed it, but need to read from basically the top of page 5, gimmie a day or so to catchup.

Oh and I'm totally the cop in this game of vanillas only.

[Zachrulez]

If you're a cop, you should claim now, and save us some time.

First, this is a mountainous set up. There are only goons and vanilla. Second, if we did have powerroles, this is a horrible idea and is blatantly you rolefishing.

Unvote, Vote: Battle Mage

*facepalm*

I'm well aware of the setup thanks. Whether Alex was or not, im not so sure. Why would you not let the trap play out?

BM

This is a bunch of crap. I'm pretty certain Alexhans knows this game is Mountainous.

[VP Baltar]

Lame? maybe. Scummy? Wtf.

Please explain your vote on me.

Well, as I explained before, it looks like you forgot the setup and were rolefishing. Now, perhaps you were attempting to go down this trap road you are explaining, in which case you could be town and were just making a lame play.

Alex invited serveral players to this game (myself included), so I would assume he knows the setup plenty well. Perhaps you were the one who forgot the setup. Perhaps not.

Does my vote bother you?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

@DDD: Fair enough, it's contradictory. But does that really matter?

Yes, I’m inherently suspicious of anyone who either fails to take a stance or tries to make multiple stances because both of those are the easiest ways to make sure you’re never wrong or always partially right thus just slipping into the background.

also, in addition to Mastin's following post I would tell you to look at Sensfan's death on n0 in Mafia 91. Not random.

Mastin has a very good point when he says that n0 kills are very probably not random.

Very good point? It isnt brain surgery, pal. What scumgroup kills randomly?

The flaw you have is, that any motive you give to a scumkill is automatically WIFOM. Thus, no conclusion you can draw from the kills can make a strong case.

Agreed. Ironically, Alex mentions M91 as solid reason for NK speculation, noting that Sens’ N0 death wasn’t random. Except the other scum group, which I was a part of, removed everyone we played with from the player list and then randomly killed from that list N0 as to throw off townies trying to do this exact kind of speculation. BM’s last two sentences perfectly sum up my opinion on this matter.

Out of sheer interest, rather than any game relevance, have you got a link to this process taking place? Like in a quicktopic or whatever?

BM

http://www.quicktopic.com/43/H/tMHQY9RX8RT

Though I wasn't as clear in my post(s) in retrospect as I remembered, but I assume people would only remove players they knew from the list and then from that list I randomly selected one. As it stands, I've never played with Zilla and I sent in the kill on him. So I find the Alex/Mastin theories to be more than a little short-sighted.

[Yaw]

broomhead has requested replacement. I'll get on that tomorrow. Shouldn't take too long to fill the spot.