Large Normal 228: Bananas - Game Over

[bob3141]

@drew regarding question pointed at post 60. The question was to ask what lucky thought of blacks push. I made no inference on rangers push my self. A question that was intended to dig out luckys reasoning for his scum read of black

A question lucky just answered with fluff.

I personaly doubt rangers push comes from scum. And do find it a bit suspect that lucky cant come up with reason as to why he thinks rangers push comes from scum

corrected. vestigial word got left in

[gobbledygook]

Fenraiser replaces Tchill13. Searching for replacement of Saudade.

[Black Ranger]

I'm not on tilt. I'm emotionally turbulent. You're going to get a fucking f bomb every few posts. Happens.

[Fenraiser]

Woop woop hello everyone! Gonna read through this in a bit and respond. UwU

[Black Ranger]

But I suppose we're only missing two people that matter.

Hm

Who? And why do they matter?

Tchill and Saudade. Titus was the third player not in the game, but she's conftown and wasn't necessary to break ourselves out of RVS.

1. Why do you think this?
2. Does it? Why?
3. I don't think that was their aim. I believe they cleared it up but it seemed fairly easy to see early on what they were trying to do, which was generate content.

1. Basic sensibility.
2. Sure. Once you announce a tell you can't accurately use it again, either because scum will now avoid the trap or they will

purposely

fall into it as a means of subversion. It wouldn't be useless, but it now becomes something in the realm of "not a singular reason you should be applying against someone".

This has dissonance with your 54 and previous posts. The reason why is you deliberately take the game out of RVS with what you say, and then put us back in with an RVS vote.

What was your intent with driving for this? .

osuka had 2 votes, so with Luciano's vote change onto me that wagon overtook wake. I wanted responses to the osuka wagon. RVS was already declining:

Hah, my plan to pre-emptively OMGUS has succeeded after all!

What do you hope to accomplish with said plan

All I really hoped to accomplish was entertaining myself, but your weirdly oversensitive response is an unexpected bonus.

Spoiler: Story

So there I was, eating a banana in my living room. I was just hanging out and having a good time, but then Bob walked in. I instantly lost my appetite when I saw what he was wearing.

"Bob," I sputtered, "how did you find my old bananakini?!"

This is... really, really slow to kick off.

@osuka

Want to talk about your vote on me? No one else wants to talk about anything, so you might as well.

I really didn't like this series of posts because

this

was threatening to take us out of RVS, and failing some miraculous series of events I always view these types of posts with suspicion. I might be wrong - but scum

love

getting out of RVS so they can claim they did something.

[Black Ranger]

so realtalk, did anyone else just like... not read the whole bob/osuka thing? show of hands?

I read it but it was less like comprehension and more like scrolling.

This part is pretty good

oh those posts at that time is certianly worth a little read. I can understand not wanting to read osuka posts as it was mostly nonsenses although informative.

People like that are just to easy to mess, was quite fun.

It made me think about bob getting up in osuka's face about swearing at the beginning of the argument. It was a weird comment to make so seeing that bob is intentionally putting the screws here seems to track. Getting some bad bitch vibes out of bob and this runs against how he scumplayed in the wake large where he hanged around in the background claiming to do work without putting himself into an argument (chiefly when he wanted to see what alignment garmr vs me was, he didn't seem invested at all in it and that pinged me in game).

I didn't like this post though:

So lucky do you think ranger is scum for calling out your posts reagrding your story. Or do you think he is town simply making a bad push

And it should be obvious why. I didn't have any sort of push by the time Luciano voted me. It's completely ignoring the concept of causality here. Now if you want scum to revise their story and say, "yeah that's why I voted him!" That's optimistic but we have Luciano's response here:

UNVOTE: Wake. VOTE: BlackRanger.

I don't like his last two posts. They scream to me, "Hey, I exist, bye!"

Also, he didn't continue the story.

My vote is for the middle two sentences here. It has nothing to do with him being a poopyhead funsucker extraordinaire.

But Bob continues his line of reasoning here:

@drew regarding question pointed at post 60. The question was to ask what lucky thought of blacks push. I made no inference on rangers push my self. A question that was intended to dig out luckys reasoning for his scum read of black

A question lucky just answered with fluff.

I personaly doubt rangers push comes from scum.

And do find it a bit suspect that lucky cant come up with reason as to why he thinks rangers push comes from scum

corrected. vestigial word got left in

I feel like he couldn't have missed 88 even though he was going aggro on osuka, because he circled back to Luciano at 88. This is another thing that pinged me from bob from the wake large. He had one tool in the toolbox and kept using it.

Bob if you're deliberately trying to piss off Luciano with this post, move on.

[Black Ranger]

Cakez' answer to me in 141 is good, leaning town there.

I disagree on cakez town but the slot self resolves so either I get there or he gets out.

[Black Ranger]

...

question 3 is a misrep that you insist on. the initial vote really wasn't based on anything substantial (it was like "hoo wee you're tilted let me see if i can push your buttons further"), given we don't even have 100 posts in this game yet - there _is_ nothing substantial for anyone to base anything off of. that's a pretty disgusting misrep though: how the fuck do you expect me to just sit here and take you saying "you voted the guy in rvs therefore you think none of what he's done comes from town"

to be more specific:

Why do you think this cant be town. AS by voting for him you are saying that town woudl never see that story as reason to vote.

this is fucking disgusting and now I do actually feel comfortable properly pushing a slot
VOTE: bob

I like osuka's response to bob in the 1v1 and I feel like it's perfectly fair to vote bob here because bob's doing that whole "ignoring casuality" thing because it's my understanding is that bob is insisting that I was pushing Luciano on the story business, which I did to the extent that I wanted to see if he would backtrack and revise his reason behind bringing it up. I never actually voted Luciano.

[bob3141]

So far this looks like Ranger has roled town in this rodeo. As this feels like town Ranger added to the fact that ranger initial posts felt to agressive for scum at that stage in the game.

[Black Ranger]

Back to the story business:

The story itself was never intended to be game-relevant. It was intended to give people a reason to want to post in the game. Let's do things your way though, and go back to not posting.

This didn't really track considering Luciano got upset with me for not posting in a way he'd like. If his motive was getting people to vote he was well positioned on Wake. I

do

feel like scum would try to get more out of their play here and just tell me to fuck off instead of give up like this.

I'm here right now:

VOTE: fwogcarf

Pedit: Bob do you understand the sequence of events involving Luciano's vote on me and what exactly was my push? I think somebody said something like a mountain and an ant hill ITT the other day, and this is it.

[fwogcarf]

Really interesting to see multiple votes on me without explanation

anyway going to analyze stuff

[fwogcarf]

The whole Bob v Osuka thing was instigated by bob and carried over i think 3 pages. Up to 81 I start slightly scumreading Osuka because his goal of the game "finally getting somewhere" is achieved. This is only page 4 when he says this, I find that statement schedule-like (for lack of a better term). He starts pushing bob off of the "why do you think this can't be town" question. I got out of that is Osuka pushing bob off of that ONE question, which is horrible reasoning for a vote.

What pings me about bob is that he wants to know what Titus' role is. Now that would seem really bad in a normal game without confirmed town, but I think it's still unnecessary to ask Titus what her role is when there could be a doctor floating around somewhere (If there is a setup, I haven't seen it). I completely agree that being conftown is exhausting because most of the town will look up to you for decisions and you don't want to screw up.

This prompts me to think theater might be happening because wolves can play against each other to seem like an argument is either TvT or TvS, when in reality it's SvS. Here I don't think that is the case when Osuka is blatantly insulting bob in every single post he makes (including a jab at Nahdia). Bob's moodiness might be a tell for sure, but Osuka's arrogance sort of throws the entire argument off for me.

So both of them are hard null, but the argument is in no way SvS

Is that the fenraiser I know from ToS

[fwogcarf]

Stopped reading bob vs osuka after about 10 posts. Way to clog up the game guys.

VOTE: fwogcarf

ok

Scum reaction
VOTE: feog
Still SRing Black Ranger. Nahdia asked why? Because his page 1/2 content looked like scum trying to get posts in as "content"

Who's more scummy, me or Ranger?

You cuz posts like 145 stink and Black Ranger hasn't posted in a bit

Not crazy about Drew entrance. Seems like a lot of nothing plus the Umlaut SR.
No idea how to read bob.

Fair

[fwogcarf]

Perfect. Thank you. My goal is to get to know you. Extreme confidence is not required. This should help me get to know how to get the best from you.

Huh.

Well that's awfully cordial of you.

happy birthday my dude

[Nahdia]

yeah bob's "lol it's fun to mess with people" post is kind of wild but not sure what to make of it. combined with wording in 183 bob kinda just feels a bit performative to me? a bit too loose? idk, tone reads are bad, but im making note of it here anyway. fight me

fwogcarf is not exactly giving me town pings but I need someone to explain the wagon because right now it looks to be based on some pretty weak surface-level points. Still want a response from Bob in particular re. 139.

didn't like this:

Spoiler: brief exchange

Does scum theater this early

why, are you scumreading them both?

Nope

But I will find out who came out of that exchange worse off.

....then what was even the point of that question?

To spark conversation

seemed shady, like they were giving the suggestions of a scumread without actually, yakno, giving a scumread. and defending weird questions as "sparking conversation" is bleh.

pedit oh yea happy birthday wake.

[fwogcarf]

so realtalk, did anyone else just like... not read the whole bob/osuka thing? show of hands? o/

Why?

sarcasm, my dude

Nahdia seems sort of townie? I haven't played with her in ages so my meta is junk.

mmmmm why? any reasoning besides stale meta?

You have chosen to completely disregard the bob v osuka argument and see if you can find supposedly better content. Are you purposefully choosing to distance yourself from the conversation or do you legitimately not have any opinions on it.

If the latter, why ask the "Show of hands" question?

[fwogcarf]

I'm not on tilt. I'm emotionally turbulent. You're going to get a fucking f bomb every few posts. Happens.

relatable

[Nahdia]

i legitimately just didnt want to read it.

[fwogcarf]

yeah bob's "lol it's fun to mess with people" post is kind of wild but not sure what to make of it. combined with wording in 183 bob kinda just feels a bit performative to me? a bit too loose? idk, tone reads are bad, but im making note of it here anyway. fight me

fwogcarf is not exactly giving me town pings but I need someone to explain the wagon because right now it looks to be based on some pretty weak surface-level points. Still want a response from Bob in particular re. 139.

didn't like this:

Spoiler: brief exchange

Does scum theater this early

why, are you scumreading them both?

Nope

But I will find out who came out of that exchange worse off.

....then what was even the point of that question?

To spark conversation

seemed shady, like they were giving the suggestions of a scumread without actually, yakno, giving a scumread. and defending weird questions as "sparking conversation" is bleh.

pedit oh yea happy birthday wake.

I like to ask questions that aren't directed at anybody just to see how people would A. respond to it and B. what their opinion is. You can read me giving a hint of a scumread as bad, that's fine. What's not fine is the "sparking conversation" thing because that is 100% the truth and I do it all the time.

[Nahdia]

eh, alright. point retracted i guess.

[bob3141]

The whole Bob v Osuka thing was instigated by bob and carried over i think 3 pages. Up to 81 I start slightly scumreading Osuka because his goal of the game "finally getting somewhere" is achieved. This is only page 4 when he says this, I find that statement schedule-like (for lack of a better term). He starts pushing bob off of the "why do you think this can't be town" question. I got out of that is Osuka pushing bob off of that ONE question, which is horrible reasoning for a vote.

What pings me about bob is that he wants to know what Titus' role is. Now that would seem really bad in a normal game without confirmed town, but I think it's still unnecessary to ask Titus what her role is when there could be a doctor floating around somewhere (If there is a setup, I haven't seen it). I completely agree that being conftown is exhausting because most of the town will look up to you for decisions and you don't want to screw up.

This prompts me to think theater might be happening because wolves can play against each other to seem like an argument is either TvT or TvS, when in reality it's SvS. Here I don't think that is the case when Osuka is blatantly insulting bob in every single post he makes (including a jab at Nahdia). Bob's moodiness might be a tell for sure, but Osuka's arrogance sort of throws the entire argument off for me.

So both of them are hard null, but the argument is in no way SvS

Is that the fenraiser I know from ToS

what makes you think i was after titus role. As titus role should be clear to all that have the mafiascum normal game wiki page bookmarked.

So is your claimed scum read on me based on something as flawed and simple as that.

osuka is funny, isnt he. Players like that are always fair game for being hoisted by their own petard

[bob3141]

so realtalk, did anyone else just like... not read the whole bob/osuka thing? show of hands? o/

Why?

sarcasm, my dude

Nahdia seems sort of townie? I haven't played with her in ages so my meta is junk.

mmmmm why? any reasoning besides stale meta?

You have chosen to completely disregard the bob v osuka argument and see if you can find supposedly better content. Are you purposefully choosing to distance yourself from the conversation or do you legitimately not have any opinions on it.

If the latter, why ask the "Show of hands" question?

why are you not trying to make your own content?

[fwogcarf]

so realtalk, did anyone else just like... not read the whole bob/osuka thing? show of hands? o/

Why?

sarcasm, my dude

Nahdia seems sort of townie? I haven't played with her in ages so my meta is junk.

mmmmm why? any reasoning besides stale meta?

You have chosen to completely disregard the bob v osuka argument and see if you can find supposedly better content. Are you purposefully choosing to distance yourself from the conversation or do you legitimately not have any opinions on it.

If the latter, why ask the "Show of hands" question?

why are you not trying to make your own content?

?

I am.

[gobbledygook]

-

[LuckyLuciano]

I've only done a brief skim, but there are two topics I want to immediately address, and I will go back through and answer some of the smaller things.

(1) Lucky not wanting to scumhunt prior to all of the players being in the game.

Yeah, and I'm probably not going to scumhunt after all of the players are int he game either. It's not how I intend to play the game. My first game on mafiascum, Newbie 1988, came after a multiyear hiatus from mafia offsite. Titus was in that game. I ended up figuring out the game at the end, but not before I confbias tunneled nearly every single town in the game. I thought a lot about what went wrong that game, and how my play that game was different from my old town games before. The main difference I found was that I focused more on building town blocks before to minimize my tendency to be paranoid of people and assume everyone has an ulterior motive. My solve of that game game when I stopped looking for reasons people are scum and started looking for reasons people are town. My town play in Newbie 1995 is notably different than my town play in Newbie 1988 because it is a direct response to the flaws I saw in my play in 1988. I took this a step further after the game by observing Newbie 1998. The idea was I could put myself in a situation where it is not possible for me to pursue scumreads, as I wasn't in the game, making it easier to focus on townreads. I solved the game very early in my PT through PoE. The next game I played where I focused really hard on implementing this strategy was Newbie 2002. I made two pushes that entire game. The first was a reaction test which I explained throughout the game helped me develop strong townreads and limit my solve to 3 players on day 1. The second push was the only actual push that wasn't justified as "mafia by PoE", i.e. the only active push onto one of the 3 players in my PoE. It happened to be on the only town player in my PoE. While we won the game easily, and I had a correct solve early Day 1, it was further proof to myself that when I scumhunt, I confbias hella hard and even when I'm picking between 2 scum and a town to case, it's easy for me to zone in on the townie and convince myself they are scum.

That doesn't mean I won't call out things that I find scummy. If something pings me, I note it. I just prefer to build a town block because I'm better at that, mostly via being really, really bad when I confbias tunnel. Examples where I confbias tunnel and it's bad for town include, Newbie 1988, Newbie 1996 (I actually had a correct PoE early, and then let myself get so annoyed with a player that I pushed them so hard it derailed the entire game), and Micro 938 (I went into 5p LYLO knowing with pretty high certainty at least 1 of the mafia and planned to wait until 3p LYLO to finish the solve, but let another player's weird behavior throw me into a confbias tunnel that prevented me from even considering the second player, Umlaut, as scum).

It's kinda funny really, I sniped this game in the signups after Titus signed up, because she was largely the reason I didn't straight leave the site after how poorly I performed in my first game here. I literally cased every single townie in the game at some point. Now she's conftown and isn't going to be leading with reads so I don't get to interact with her how I wanted to. That is to say, I was excited to play with her now that my strategy revolves more around cooperative play than trying to solo carry the game, and she's in a position to observe an give her thoughts at EoD rather than actively work with players as they develop reads.

---

Change of plans. I cut the second topic I wanted to discuss and pasted it into a word doc to bring up at a later time, I've realized it has more value discussing later. I'll be back in a few hours to address other topics that popped up while I was gone.