Mini #643: Time Capsule Mafia, Game Over

[icemanE]

please explain how you managed to be so mistaken about the vote count.

I just finished a game today (Mini 618) so I was in endgame mode - got confused.

Please explain why my vote L-3 would have been more likely to come from scum.

It's Sens and Y that come off scummy for 3rd and 4th BW votes so early.

Bandwagons are great, on scummy people. Darox hasn't done anything even remotely scummy yet, so the BW is uncalled for. I can see it getting to two or maybe even three, but 4 is crazy, especially 4 straight posts in a row. The ease with which you withdrew your vote comes off a tad suspicious as well - once your vote was questioned, you pulled it. Your claim that you BW voted for info and to end the RV stage seems legitimate though, and you're correct that you accomplished both.

unvote - vote: Snitch

for the FoS fest without a vote.

[Rotten Snitch]

My bandwagoning was meant to accomplish two things: end the random phase and provide information. It's done both

Well your post answers your question to me. If your bandwagon was the attempt to take us out of random voting then my random vote would have come too late.

I gave FoS because it was suspicious that we had a player for no reason put at L-3 in 5 posts total.
the reasons why that wagon formed:

vote darox obv scum for obv reasons

What is obscum about Darrox?

vote: darox
Have to stick to tradition eh?

And what tradition are you refering to?

Vote: Darox, for reasons outlined above

And what are those reasons Sens? Tradition or obv scum?

Hello Sens and clammy. Feel free to confirm that I do not random vote.

Vote: Darox so that we can lynch scum

If you do not random vote, why vote Darox and say he is scum? What additional knowledge do you have that we the town do not?
What benefit do you have for rushing out of Random Voting Stage?

I think that is a good enough reason to FoS all of you because I cannot vote all four at once.

Again seems as though your attempt to take us out of the random stage is successful so why try to redirect the attention to me for not voting?

Now I will vote

Vote: Ythill

Not random - you seem too rushed to be townie right now. Nice try though.

Does that answer why I gave out four FoS's?

[melikefood]

D=
I missed a bunch...

FoS SweatpantsNinja

I don't think defending this bandwagon is very town.

[SensFan]

please explain how you managed to be so mistaken about the vote count.

I just finished a game today (Mini 618) so I was in endgame mode - got confused.

I find it hard to believe that it was 5 to lynch in an endgame scenario.

On another note, I'll ask that no one attempts to make assumptions on whether or not my vote was random. I do not randomly vote at the start of any game I am in.

[Yosarian2]

Marvelous.

unvote

My bandwagoning was meant to accomplish two things: end the random phase and provide information. It's done both.

@ Yos & Batt: Your votes jump to a conclusion. Please explain why my vote L-3 would have been more likely to come from scum.

(shrug) I'm not interested in WIFOMing it, Ythill, or getting into a "would scum do something so obveously scummy" debate. Doing that with no explination, pushing a wagon that far with absolutly no reason, seems to me to be an anti-town move, and one that could theoretically have ended quite badly; if one more person followed your lead, he would have been at lynch -2, and might felt forced to clain or something. Page 1, day 1, I see someone act in an apparently anti-town way, I'm going to vote for them.

TheSweatpantsNinja: Was that a random vote, or do you really have a problem with my ythill vote here?

[Ythill]

I gave FoS because it was suspicious that we had a player for no reason put at L-3 in 5 posts total.

Why was it suspicious? What would scum have to gain in that situation?

If you do not random vote, why vote Darox and say he is scum?

I explained why I voted, and it was not random. I never said Darox was scum, I said I was voting him so that we could lynch scum. Are you reading for content, or just looking for excuses to suspect people?

What additional knowledge do you have that we the town do not?

My own role and alignment, and whether or not I have paper.

....why try to redirect the attention to me for not voting?

I did no such thing. I posted to fish for overreaction and I questioned

everyone

that responded in bold. Nor did I accuse you. Why are you being defensive?

...you seem too rushed to be townie right now.

This accusation, the sole explicit reason for your vote, doesn't make any sense. To catch scum, we need to get as much information into the thread as possible. What would be pro-town about wasting time?

Will you admit that you're feeling a little OMGUS?

[Ythill]

I don't think defending this bandwagon is very town.

Why not? What about it hurts the town or helps the scum?

@ Sens: QFT and noted.

...if one more person followed your lead, he would have been at lynch -2, and might felt forced to clain or something.

Nonsense. By voting, you suggest that you believe I am scum which, in a 12 person game, means there are probably only 2 more. Would they vote to L-1 and then hammer? Would it hurt the town if they did, to get one mislynch? Darox was

never

in danger, especially if I am the play.

Your fear-mongering is scummy. You know this game well enough to know how uncommon page 1 mislynches are. Besides, what makes you think it would have been a mislynch?

[melikefood]

I don't think defending this bandwagon is very town.

Why not? What about it hurts the town or helps the scum?

I was sorta thinking that the bandwagon was heading for a lynch.
I think only one vote is enough for pressure.

[Yosarian2]

...if one more person followed your lead, he would have been at lynch -2, and might felt forced to clain or something.

Nonsense. By voting, you suggest that you believe I am scum which, in a 12 person game, means there are probably only 2 more. Would they vote to L-1 and then hammer? Would it hurt the town if they did, to get one mislynch? Darox was

never

in danger, especially if I am the play.

Your fear-mongering is scummy. You know this game well enough to know how uncommon page 1 mislynches are. Besides, what makes you think it would have been a mislynch?

...what the hell are you talking about?

I'm voting for you because you did something anti-town, which made a vote for you better then a random vote would be. I'm not saying I "believe you're scum", although it is more likely then random (and just got a lot MORE likely after this post, FYI). I AM saying that you did something that hurt the town. I am also saying that if I HADN'T voted you, someone else (possibly a newbie, or possibly a scum, or who knows) might have thought "hey, this is the thing to do" and done the same exact thing you and the other three people had done; and that if that had happened we would be in a dangerous situation.

And this defense post of yours is bizzare and scummy; it seems like you're defending yourself against things I never said. I didn't say that "three scum were suddenly going to come out of nowhere and vote him and lynch him" at all. I said that your vote was anti-town, because it was dangerous, it increased the chances of something going very badly wrong, possibly very quickly. It seems like your defense here is trying to say that your vote was no danger because only a scum would vote for someone on page 1 with already had several votes on him; but since that is exactally what you just did, that dosn't make any sense at all, unless you are scum.

What the hell do you mean "fear-mongering"? You did an anti-town action, which basically means an action that's more likely to hurt the town then to help the town. Was it *very likely* to hurt the town? The odds probably weren't all that high. But, nonetheless, I think your action was anti-town, and I vote for people who act in anti-town ways.

Yes, for Darox to be in significant danger, it would mean several people would have to do something dangerous and anti-town. But, considering several people just HAD done something dangerous and anti-town, that hardly seems unlikely.

Also, I don't really like your explination for your actions in your other post either. Yes, you ended the random phase; you did it by acting really, really scummy. And yes, when you act really, really scummy, people will vote for you. How does that "provide information", exactally? And if you were doing that delibratly, then why are you so up in arms about people voting you? Shouldn't you have expected that?

[icemanE]

Page 1, day 1, I see someone act in an apparently anti-town way, I'm going to vote for them.

QFT, Ythill is massively overreacting to the votes put on him for something he did which deserved votes.

[roffman]

...if one more person followed your lead, he would have been at lynch -2, and might felt forced to clain or something.

Nonsense. By voting, you suggest that you believe I am scum which, in a 12 person game, means there are probably only 2 more. Would they vote to L-1 and then hammer? Would it hurt the town if they did, to get one mislynch? Darox was

never

in danger, especially if I am the play.

How do you know he was never in danger? The very act of putting him on that many votes creates a dangerous situation that a new person or immature scum might have taken advantage of. Also, you're assurance that he is even less in danger if

you

are the play just seems like a scummy statement to me. What makes you so special that your very presence can alter bandwagons?

[Rotten Snitch]

I gave FoS because it was suspicious that we had a player for no reason put at L-3 in 5 posts total.

Why was it suspicious? What would scum have to gain in that situation?

I have a feeling this will go back and forth for a while...
What would scum benefit..... hmmm testing the waters to see who is more liable to vote or follow. I don't know what scum would benefit from it but seeing as I am not scum and I was not on that wagon then I can only assume there was something worthwhile. What have you gained from that quick bandwagon Ythill?

If you do not random vote, why vote Darox and say he is scum?

I explained why I voted, and it was not random. I never said Darox was scum, I said I was voting him so that we could lynch scum. Are you reading for content, or just looking for excuses to suspect people?

Ahhhh yeah ok so I must have been reading this out of context I thought you said it was not a random vote and you were voting Darox to lynch scum.

....why try to redirect the attention to me for not voting?

I did no such thing. I posted to fish for overreaction and I questioned everyone that responded in bold. Nor did I accuse you. Why are you being defensive?

I am not getting defensive. I just stated that you were questioning people when they questioned your scummish action. i.e. Redirecting

...you seem too rushed to be townie right now.

This accusation, the sole explicit reason for your vote, doesn't make any sense. To catch scum, we need to get as much information into the thread as possible. What would be pro-town about wasting time?

My vote has better reasoning than you have so far presented or voted for.

So you ask me why I wasn't voting I answered because the random stage was rushed out page one before myself and others even had a chance to post. I then voted you because now that we are out of the random stage you seem to be the most scummy and now I am being defensive? I personally think a lot of information can be gathered from the random stage and should be at least given enough time for everyone to post. Now we don't have that.

[petroleumjelly]

Day One Vote Count #1

4 Ythill (Yosarian2, icemanE, Battousai, Rotten Snitch)
3 Darox (roffman, clammy, SensFan)
1 clammy (Darox)
1 Yosarian2 (TheSweatpantsNinja)

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch! Deadline August 18, 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 3 – melikefood, pacman281292, Ythill

[pacman281292]

OMG, two bandwagons in a day?!?!?! That's odd (wait, this game screws up time)

The first wagon was extremely scummy -Darox randomvoted, and it's normal in a game-, the second is people jumping very quickly into conclussions (I had just seen an example of that into a game at another forum). I'm confused. I hate long posts with billions of quotes (as Rotten Snitch and Yhtill ones).

I'm confused. I will think in a good post later.

[Darox]

Well that was an interesting turn of events.

From my point of view, I don't see anything wrong with roff or clammy's votes. Roff was randoming, and clammy is voting me for the same reason I am voting clammy.

Sens vote is stretching it a bit, but 3 votes in a 7 to lynch isn't that serious and he probably just wanted to continue the streak I had going.

As for Ythill... The reasons he gives for acting as he did seem perfectly plausible, and it certainly ended the random vote phase at least. But after being called out for his actions being anti-town, his defense starts getting a bit sketchy.

I especially didn't like this part.

Your fear-mongering is scummy. You know this game well enough to know how uncommon page 1 mislynches are. Besides, what makes you think it would have been a mislynch?

Yos(s)arian's points are a far cry from fear mongering. Although admittedly he is drawing a bit on the slippery slope argument, he is right in that it is not worth the risk to put someone on four votes day one page one, because if other players follow your lead and we get a lynch in the first 1-2 pages, that only hurts the town. Small gain, large potential loss.

[clammy]

Darox randomvoted

and clammy is voting me for the same reason I am voting clammy

Sorry Darox, i had to laugh.

On topic now and I'm pretty much going to have to throw my lot in with Ythill on this one, if anyone has joined a wagon subtly hoping that it would lead to a quick-lynch it's those who've seen Ythill now on four votes for an "indiscretion" that i see, at this stage, as brilliant town play.

Snitch, this is particularly you with your pushing hard against the play and everyone who was (not) remotely involved, ie: roffman.

Also, g'day to Sens, let's not lynch us any docs this time round eh?

[Battousai]

@ Yos & Batt: Your votes jump to a conclusion. Please explain why my vote L-3 would have been more likely to come from scum.

The reason I voted for you was because you wanted to lynch someone, who hasn't posted, on page 1. You say assuming you thought darox was scum and wanted him lynched is jumping to conclusions. It's not, it's more like stepping to conclusions. You later contradict yourself later by saying in your last post to Yos, "By voting, you suggest that you believe I am scum..." So is it jumping to conclusions to assume you vote someone because their scum, but not when you do it to Yos? Also, I never said you were scum, but you did ACT scummy with your vote, you shouldn't jump to conclusions

Sens, why did you vote Darox? You said it wasn't random.

[Darox]

Vote: Ythill

for placing a serious vote on someone, placing them at L-3,

when they haven't even posted yet.

Sens, why did you vote Darox?

You said it wasn't random.

Vote: Darox

, for reasons outlined above.

Battousai needs to skimread less.

[Battousai]

oops, but your one post was not at all suspicious so my point is the same. Also, Sens said his vote on you wasn't random in a later post. Maybe you need to skimread less

[clammy]

If you believe the hype Battousai, Darox was voting with his opening post and that was a dangerous and risky anti-town action that could have lead down the slippery slope (cheers Darox, #35) of an early and un-noticed page 1 mis-lynch.

[Ythill]

I'm tired and a little drunk, so I'm going to keep this short.

Fear mongering = stating that putting someone at L-3 on page one is dangerous and, now, continuing that ridiculous argument. People don't usually even claim at L-3, even when there are cases and arguments against them and it's late enough in the day that townies might hammer. But you expect us to believe that my action was "anti-town" because it risked the life of someone who's alignment you supposedly don't know?

Claiming that my move was dangerous is baseless, and it falsely paints me as someone who would pose a serious risk to the town for... what?

Yos (and others) keep saying that my action was

anti-town

, that it was

scummy

. These are buzzwords, not cases. Can one of these accusers reasonably explain how scum would benefit?

Ythill is massively overreacting to the votes put on him for something he did which deserved votes.

More accurate = Ythill is following up on the information gained through his opening move, so as to determine who among the opportunists is actually on the side of the mafia. "Deserved votes" is subjective. Nobody has yet been able to explain how my vote helped scum. Can you?

[Battousai]

a l-3 vote could help scum by putting pressure on someone to get them to claim. That's one.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

On topic now and I'm pretty much going to have to throw my lot in with Ythill on this one, if anyone has joined a wagon subtly hoping that it would lead to a quick-lynch it's those who've seen Ythill now on four votes for an "indiscretion" that i see, at this stage, as brilliant town play.

Brilliant? Its just an extension of the "look how cool I am, I started a bandwagon because the random vote stage is meaningless, but don't you dare call my obviously anti-town action anti-town, that makes

you

scummy."

Ythill: Your vote hurt the town by virtue of destroying any value the early random wagons might have had.

[icemanE]

"Deserved votes" is subjective.

In my post, deserved votes was there to say that the votes that were placed on you were deserved - that is, you deserved to be voted for.

Nobody has yet been able to explain how my vote helped scum. Can you?

Putting someone closer to a lynch without a solid reason helps scum for obvious reasons - it makes it that much easier to lynch said person.

But you expect us to believe that my action was "anti-town" because it risked the life of someone who's alignment you supposedly don't know?

Working from the assumption that someone is scum when they've done nothing suspicious is anti-town. You're basically saying here, and correct me if I'm wrong, that since we don't know anyone's alignment but our own, we can lynch anyone without a good reason and it's not a problem?

Yos (and others) keep saying that my action was anti-town, that it was scummy. These are buzzwords, not cases.

Are there words you'd prefer to be used? Those words denote one's suspicions - I've explained why I'm voting for you.

[Battousai]

Ythill: Your vote hurt the town by virtue of destroying any value the early random wagons might have had.

That's two.

Unvote

, one too many votes for right now.