Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[mykonian]

Mykonian: did you see my explanation for why you don't see the same pattern in the games you looked at? What do you think of that? Are you still voting me for meta?

If you read me right, I was voting you because I saw a clear similarity between Merrin and this game. The town meta could weaken my suspicion, if it was the same.

So, that means that the weak cases you have made in the start, the aggressiveness that often doesn't make that much sense, isn't excuses "because you do it all the time". You actually did it as scum!

[charter]

Show me in context, and tell me if you can't see why I bring it up, if and when I do.

I don't see the need for a person to ever declare the RVS over. I don't see why you kept saying it. I think it's a slight scum tell because you're pointing out to everyone that you are useful, which you shouldn't need to do.

Stuff like "you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it" coupled with the fact that your 'read' on Porkens doesn't say anything, and the only thing we're left with is he accused you of not reponding to a question (which you didn't) and you somehow spin it back on him.

You didn't actually elaborate on any of this, just defended against the non-attack of "somehow spinning it back on him". Disappointing. All you did was go to extreme lengths to defend yourself. I'm not going to continue with this because I'm not going to bother reading another essay.

I said I wasn't entirely truthful to say it wasn't serious, and that it was only 25% serious. It hasn't changed from that.

That IS an inconsistancy. How can you ignore how you said it wasn't serious after being called out when it was serious when you cast it, and then you admitted to it being serious later. Don't even wave percentages at me, because that means nothing, this is a black and white matter.

Zilla, the reason I'm voting you is because your story changed in regards to your Porkens vote. The only thing I assumed is it was serious when you cast it (which is both obvious and admitted since then). And also, have you played in games with me where my tunnel vision was wrong? Not trying to be arrogant, but just curious. (because it is wrong sometimes)

I am also not comprehending ZazieR's post 202, Porkens is quite definately town in my book. Her explainations don't make sense either (I understand what she's saying, I don't think it's right).

isn't a governor a role that stops a lynch?

Yes.

I really don't see anyone else as scum besides Zilla. Maybe VP Balter, but that's kind of a guess.

[VP Baltar]

Did I consider getting flak, and was the response more than I bargained for? I thought I'd get attention. I also don't think the response is more than I bargained for because Llama was the only one to even really comment on it, the rest are apparently angry at me for voting Porkens on a weak premise (when we were transitioning, thanks to me, out of RVS, I should remind you, with a 75% joke vote). What I want to know is why you asked these questions.

Your Porkens vote was related to you claiming double voter, so you have gotten a lot of flak over it. The reason I asked you this is that it seems like and awfully ill conceived plan if you are town. It seemed to me that you came under fire a bit harder than you had originally thought you were going to.

And yes, I do need you to remind me again and again and again that you were the slayer of RVS with a 75% joke. I love that story.

Second, I'm saying you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it, so you're going to try to push it. If you really believed it to be the case, it would be on terms of whether or not it is possible. You laid out that "It could be that you're being scummy, so I believe it." Why couldn't it be a town move?

Tell me more about what i believe and don't believe. It's great logic. Also, I think it is great when you paraphrase what people say to fit your point. Another solid move.

But to answer your question, it indeed could be a scum move. I feel you were particularly ferverent about it, which seems more of a scum move than town.

porkens and charter. I don't like porkens saying he likes the Zilla wagon, but I don't think he's scum for it. Again, I see newbie, not scum. Charter is just being super tunnel vision as usual, and is a null tell.

You also jumped on Kmd, mykonian and myself shortly after we started questioning you. It seems to me that as soon as anyone questions you, you are ready to FOS, vote them or call them possible scum and generally for very weak reasons. It's all a bit reactionary.

--------------------------------------

VP, like I said before, who is going to vote on page 3, based on the fact that you think her scummy cases can't be explained, like she said, that she always does that?

Indeed, I wanted to see how she continued. I was going to vote her, but what harm could waiting do? If I point out what she was doing wrong, what made me think she was scum, she could alter her play. If I acted too soon, maybe my case would look worse, and seen that there was no harm in waiting, why wouldn't I?

Well, if she is always like that and she changed after you accused her, wouldn't that be a sure scumtell?

My point is that you said on page 3 that you were suspicious of Zilla, but needed to see more. You say that you didn't want to tip her off and have her change her behaviour before you voted. HOWEVER, you vote her 24 hours after you make your first accusation. Doesn't exactly seem like a very long time to see if she's playing up to her meta.

Also, if you already had these suspicions of her based on meta, why did you have to keep asking her for games? You must have seen her before as town to even have these suspicions in the first place. Then it only takes you little over 40minutes to read her in 1 town game and determine that your suspicions are correct.

I call BS (big scum).

I say we lynch mykonian today, and then you can all consider how awesome my case on Zilla is tomorrow.

[LlamaFluff]

If he's a one-shot, I find it suspicious that he has used it almost at the start.
Second, his claim. Why would a dayvig claim right away?
Third, I wasn't on his list, while I was lurking as well.

I can see a 1-shot daykill mafia, but not a daykill mafia. This is why I'm giving Porkens a chance for today to prove tomorrow if he's a dayvig. If he's not, point 3 is a very big tell against him.

I agree that one shot should not of been used when it was, but its not a scumtell at all. Some people prefer to use one shot roles early, I try and use limited abilities by night two.

The claim is odd, that one I will give you. Its nothing to lynch him over though by any means. Some roles are ambiguous though when you match up their name and ability, so it may of been fakeable. Porkens should full claim (is his role "Day Vig" or something else).

Im not sure why you even bring up three. Are you accusing him of buddying up to you or something like that?

I see basically no way Porkens is scum without two scum teams in this game. Very small but there is a SK who can only make day kills, but he is nearly certain town with that kill. If there is only one kill a night and they disappear after enough scum deaths, but the game is going, then its something to take into consideration.

The fact that you are railing on Porkens for being scum when he used a day vig to kill scum, who was also a gov (prevents lynch and day goes to night if IIRC), with no concrete evidence... wow.

[camn]

I say we lynch mykonian today, and then you can all consider how awesome my case on Zilla is tomorrow.

Yes, please.

I agree that one shot should not of been used when it was, but its not a scumtell at all. Some people prefer to use one shot roles early, I try and use limited abilities by night two.

I like Day-one vigs... just in case you die! Gotta get that killing in!!
And with an unrepenting lurker in the game... y not?!

[Zilla]

On this page, VP steals Charter's responses, doesn't cite sources.

Plagarism!

[LlamaFluff]

I agree that one shot should not of been used when it was, but its not a scumtell at all. Some people prefer to use one shot roles early, I try and use limited abilities by night two.

I like Day-one vigs... just in case you die! Gotta get that killing in!!
And with an unrepenting lurker in the game... y not?!

Im not saying a day one shot is bad, I just dont think it was the right time for it. I would of waited till it was almost a lynch to give a free one, or get my prefrence.

[Zilla]

Your Porkens vote was related to you claiming double voter, so you have gotten a lot of flak over it. The reason I asked you this is that it seems like and awfully ill conceived plan if you are town. It seemed to me that you came under fire a bit harder than you had originally thought you were going to.

So what's the point?

And yes, I do need you to remind me again and again and again that you were the slayer of RVS with a 75% joke. I love that story.

This makes me angry. VP is picking at stupid things to try to implicate me as scum.

[quote="VP Baltar]

Second, I'm saying you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it, so you're going to try to push it. If you really believed it to be the case, it would be on terms of whether or not it is possible. You laid out that "It could be that you're being scummy, so I believe it." Why couldn't it be a town move?

Tell me more about what i believe and don't believe. It's great logic. Also, I think it is great when you paraphrase what people say to fit your point. Another solid move. [/quote]

I don't buy the sarcastic answer. It's my job to try to figure out what people are thinking, and I'm saying what I think VP is thinking. Also, VP's "point" about my paraphrasing is nothing without substance. Sarcasm does not make a good counter-argument. What's paraphrased incorrectly? Also note he doesn't accuse the paraphrasing of being wrong either.

But to answer your question, it indeed could be a scum move. I feel you were particularly ferverent about it, which seems more of a scum move than town.

That doesn't answer the question, and I still don't buy it.

What's scummy about FoS/voting 4 players? Even outside of RVS?

I'm pretty sure it's the timeframe in which you did it in. You could have been simply testing the waters to see what stuck. I'm of the belief that this is definitely what your Porkens vote was.

This is what we are talking about. I was "particularly fervent" about my Porkens vote? Show me how you came to this conclusion.

Furthermore, I asked "what was scummy about it" and VP responded with "I'm pretty sure it's the timeframe" and "you could have simply been testing the waters to see what stuck." These are NOT decisive answers. This is you showing how it's POSSIBLE to construe me as scum. VP was playing spin-doctor.

porkens and charter. I don't like porkens saying he likes the Zilla wagon, but I don't think he's scum for it. Again, I see newbie, not scum. Charter is just being super tunnel vision as usual, and is a null tell.

You also jumped on Kmd, mykonian and myself shortly after we started questioning you. It seems to me that as soon as anyone questions you, you are ready to FOS, vote them or call them possible scum and generally for very weak reasons. It's all a bit reactionary.

I disproved VP's point, but he's attacking me over it anyway.

Also, I suggest people read VP in isolation and notice how many things he drops. His scumhunting is insincere.

------------------------------------------------

I don't see the need for a person to ever declare the RVS over. I don't see why you kept saying it. I think it's a slight scum tell because you're pointing out to everyone that you are useful, which you shouldn't need to do.

You ignored the actual challenge. Either put up or shut up. Show me where I "keep saying it." Show me how I'm "pointing out to everyone that I am useful." I already answered for the one time you quoted me on.

Stuff like "you don't really believe it, but you believe you can sell it" coupled with the fact that your 'read' on Porkens doesn't say anything, and the only thing we're left with is he accused you of not reponding to a question (which you didn't) and you somehow spin it back on him.

You didn't actually elaborate on any of this, just defended against the non-attack of "somehow spinning it back on him". Disappointing. All you did was go to extreme lengths to defend yourself. I'm not going to continue with this because I'm not going to bother reading another essay.

There's nothing there calling for elaboration, how as I supposed to know you wanted any? Furthermore, it's not like you actually consider anything I say anyway. Why waste the time trying to convince you of anything?

That IS an inconsistancy. How can you ignore how you said it wasn't serious after being called out when it was serious when you cast it, and then you admitted to it being serious later. Don't even wave percentages at me, because that means nothing, this is a black and white matter.

Black and White? Do you understand statistics? Do you understand how big 25% is? Do you know how to round numbers? Is 25% closer to 0%, or 100%?

And where did I "admit it was serious"?

The only thing I assumed is it was serious when you cast it (which is both obvious and admitted since then).

Here is your HUGE problem. Show me where I said it was serious?

Pardon my french here, but don't fucking vote me because you can't understand my position, and don't like that I said 25%. I never said it was serious. It was still RVS when I cast the vote. It was still a "random" vote. I haven't changed my story, and EVEN IF I DID, there are FAR better cases for scum in this thread that you're ignoring because of your stupid tunnel vision.

And also, have you played in games with me where my tunnel vision was wrong? Not trying to be arrogant, but just curious. (because it is wrong sometimes)

A marathon game where you tunneled on me and I was town, plus Family Guy ought to be counted because you were scum and you were tunneling on a partner based on a ridiculous reason that was hardly supported in thread, so the only reason you were tunneling was because you knew beforehand that he was scum. So, it's more accurate to say I've never played a game where your tunneling was accurate.

[Zilla]

The part where it says "quote="Zilla"" up there is supposed to include this quote inside of Charter's quote box:

Show me in context, and tell me if you can't see why I bring it up, if and when I do.

[Porkens]

I'm torn on Zilla. She's putting a lot of effort into defending herself, which is good, but I'm getting really hung up on the 'voting for reactions' side of it. I guess I'm just numb to the 'role-fishing' argument. I mean, it was clearly not role-fishing, plain and simple.

Zaz, you weren't on my list because...well, I didn't think of it. No offence, but you aren't a leading wagon, and you haven't been, at least by comparison, as vocal for or against them, either. You weren't even close to the level of lurking that afatchick was, and you didn't promis a re-read and then fail to deliver. In regards to this:

Porkens who doesn't have a lurking Zazie in list of players who he was thinking about killing is very unlikely to be town.

What's your theory? That you and I are scumbuddies?


Incog, having a daykill was like having $1.25 in quarters while standing next to a vending machine full of ice cold coke on a really hot day. I litterally couldn't wait to spend it. Also, since I had fallen behind (again) in the game, I wanted to do something useful. Like I said; I considered many options before afatchick jumped out at me. Honestly, it never even crossed my mind to wait any longer for him to post.

camn, I only had to PM the mod. The ":blam:" post was my option. I thought about keeping it quiet; that probably would have been the more tactically sound menouver, but no where near as gratifying as an "I love you" post from you

Very small but there is a SK who can only make day kills, but he is nearly certain town with that kill.

Could you explain this a little differently? I'm having a hard time with it...

And, it

was

almost a lynch, imo.

[Zilla]

I'm torn on Zilla. She's putting a lot of effort into defending herself, which is good, but I'm getting really hung up on the 'voting for reactions' side of it. I guess I'm just numb to the 'role-fishing' argument. I mean, it was clearly not role-fishing, plain and simple.

You asked for confirmation on my role in a suspicious way. I call it rolefishing. Also, I didn't vote for reactions. For what I hope to be the last time, I voted based on your reaction.

[charter]

I'm not torn on Zilla at all, and I'm not responding to her bs anymore. She keeps attacking EVERYONE that is/was voting her. I've seen zero scumhunting, just these ridiculous defenses.

ZILLA, YOUR VOTE WAS SERIOUS. THEN YOU CHANGED YOUR STORY. END OF DISCUSSION.

That is why I'm lynching you. I'm not debating this any more.

[Zilla]

I'll lay it out entirely, and hopefully this is what Charter was talking about.

I faked being a doublevoter to try and get a reaction.

Porkens made a post that struck me as "A doublevoter? REALLY? Uh-Oh."

I didn't respond.

Porkens avoided confrontation and stepped down, saying "I guess we'll see in the votecounts." This bothered me too.

I voted Porkens for rolefishing.

KMD asked if I was serious.

Plum VOTED me because she disagreed with my vote. I found this scummy.

I told KMD it wasn't serious to guage Plum's reaction when she saw that my vote wasn't serious.

A page goes by with little commentary about what just happened and no plum. RVS is dead, not only by my hand but also Zazie, KMD, and Incognito.

I post the truth, that I was SLIGHTLY serious about voting Porkens, and that I told KMD that it wasn't serious at all to gauge Plum's reaction.

Turns out the plan wasn't very helpful all around.

Preview Edit: Charter, I'm fucking tired of your shit. AFTER THIS GAME, LEARN TO PLAY.

I've attacked Mykonian and VP aggressively, I haven't called you or Porkens scum, and where's my attack on Plum?

PUT UP OR SHUT THE

FUCK

UP.

[Zilla]

I'm not torn on Zilla at all, and I'm not responding to her bs anymore.

She keeps attacking EVERYONE that is/was voting her.

I've seen

zero scumhunting

, just these

ridiculous

defenses.

ZILLA,

YOUR VOTE WAS SERIOUS

. THEN YOU CHANGED YOUR STORY. END OF DISCUSSION.

That is why I'm lynching you. I'm not debating this any more.

Underlined the lies. You can say I "changed my story" if you want, because I did say I wasn't serious at all when there was a modicrum of seriousness in it.

Now prove how this makes me scum.

[Zilla]

Alternatively, just how "serious" was my vote?

Also, if this attack is valid on me, what makes my point on VP not being serious about suspecting me invalid? It's got just as much premise as your ludicrousness.

[Incognito]

Re: Porkens - I'm inclined to believe the claim and am leaning towards believing he's likely town. Aside from the fact that he killed scum, I think the way he claimed strikes me as very town-ish too; I'm usually a sucker for unprovoked claims more often coming from town than scum, and his explanation for why he killed afatchic before afatchic got around to producing any content (Porkens had a strong level of anxiousness to actually USE his role) goes along with his urge to claim as well. I won't be supporting a Porkens-lynch anytime soon, if at all. I need to reread ZazieR's beef with Porkens because I don't think it makes much sense at this time.

Long story short: Anxiousness to kill and anxiousness to claim = likely Porkens-town.

-~-~-~-~-~

Zilla, charter:

In this quote war like in every other quote war in the game of Mafia, there comes a point of diminishing returns. charter, I think everyone understands your beef with Zilla. It's been drilled in our heads. Zilla, you've defended yourself already as best as you could. I don't see any need to continue these long drawn out posts where you just continue bashing each other. It only serves to make the thread more unreadable. Please stop. Thanks.

And I still need to read those last few pages. Heh.

[Zilla]

I'd prefer if Charter were an active and productive member of town at least.

[Porkens]

I wanted to see what Plum's reaction was to me saying my Porkens vote wasn't serious, but then a page went by with no plum and tons of people basically making my question lose impact.

Okay, after re-reading this (again) I think I finally see what Zilla's talking about. There wasn't a "vote to cause reactions," which I initially thought there had been.

But still; the rolefishing side; here's how that went down, just to keep things straight;

Zilla: "doublevote y"
Porkens: "Is that a real doublevote?"
---Zilla posts again without answering my question---
Porkens: "Guess I'll wait for the votecount."
Zilla: "that's rolefishing."

I mean, you said you were doublevoting. How is what I did suspicious?

[Zilla]

It's suspect because you were initially trying to confirm with me that I had doublevoting powers, and instead of confronting me over my non-answer, you then resigned to watching the votecount. It was non-confrontational, but you still were attempting to get me to reveal my role. Hence rolefishing, hence suspicion.

I think you're totally town, and I'm wondering what the heck is up with ZazieR.

[Zilla]

You SAID that you were partially serious about voting Porkens. I never said Myko was scummy in any way.

You only get to say this on a technicality. You implied that you suspected Mykonian.

I think an important question is, Why don't you suspect Mykonian?

Another important question is, what exactly is your case on me?

[Zilla]

Stories are completely made up by scum. Theories are what townies believe to be true.

This still shouldn't have invalidated Mykonian's observations for him.

It makes me think of a scene like this.

"I would NEVER eat snails!"
"It's called escargot."
"Ooh! Let me try that!"

[charter]

I have nothing more to add today. I will try and find Zilla's partner based on voting patterns tomorrow.

[Zilla]

You're not even going to look at other people today, even if your mind is already made up that I'm scum?

Now you're just being lazy AND a bad player.

[Kmd4390]

I say we lynch mykonian today, and then you can all consider how awesome my case on Zilla is tomorrow.

I say we lynch Zilla today, and then we can all consider how weak the Mykonian case is tomorrow.

I'm not torn on Zilla at all, and I'm not responding to her bs anymore.

She keeps attacking EVERYONE that is/was voting her.

I've seen

zero scumhunting

, just these

ridiculous

defenses.

ZILLA,

YOUR VOTE WAS SERIOUS

. THEN YOU CHANGED YOUR STORY. END OF DISCUSSION.

That is why I'm lynching you. I'm not debating this any more.

Underlined the lies. You can say I "changed my story" if you want, because I did say I wasn't serious at all when there was a modicrum of seriousness in it.

Now prove how this makes me scum.

So it's a lie that the vote was serious or you didn't say you were serious at all or what?

I'm honestly lost on whether or not you are calling it a serious vote now.

Zilla, charter:

In this quote war like in every other quote war in the game of Mafia, there comes a point of diminishing returns. charter, I think everyone understands your beef with Zilla. It's been drilled in our heads. Zilla, you've defended yourself already as best as you could. I don't see any need to continue these long drawn out posts where you just continue bashing each other. It only serves to make the thread more unreadable. Please stop. Thanks.

Guys, I think I found Zilla's buddy.

You want Charter to stop trying to push his top suspect when Myko's wagon is picking up steam faster than Zilla's. If Charter stops attacking, and Zilla stops defending, the attention shifts to Myko and Zilla is safe another day.

But I think you knew that.

And then:

I'd prefer if Charter were an active and productive member of town at least.

This looks a little like a "hey, they're gonna think you're defending me. Tone it down."

You only get to say this on a technicality. You implied that you suspected Mykonian.

I think an important question is, Why don't you suspect Mykonian?

Another important question is, what exactly is your case on me?

I didn't imply suspicion on Myko at all. I've questioned his logic a few times and disagreed with him a little, but I fail to see how that makes him scum.

I see no reason to suspect him. He hasn't done anything that I find scummy yet.

The case on you is your rolefishing vote, the story change, blaming it on reactions (from Plum), calling the vote partially serious, and OMGUS attacking a few people. That's most of it. I probably missed some things, but that's the major part of the case.

"I would NEVER eat snails!"
"It's called escargot."
"Ooh! Let me try that!"

Actually, if someone didn't know that snails (stories) were normally eaten as escargot (theories), they

would

naturally react in a way that they wouldn't eat them. But once they learn that they are eaten as escargot (theories), they are more likely to try them.

I have nothing more to add today. I will try and find Zilla's partner based on voting patterns tomorrow.

It's Incog.

Read him in isolation. He questioned Zilla pretty softly early on and focused on Myko while he was doing so.

[mykonian]

Also, if you already had these suspicions of her based on meta, why did you have to keep asking her for games? You must have seen her before as town to even have these suspicions in the first place. Then it only takes you little over 40minutes to read her in 1 town game and determine that your suspicions are correct.

no, I only knew a scumgame, and I saw a practically similar play. In the town games, I mostly focused on the first 10 pages, and on Zilla's posts. Further, you indeed pressured me, because several people think it is a scumtell to vote late! Can you explain to me why that is a scumtell? I think I have already pointed out how it can be, and that it can't be applied here.