Mini 780 - Chosen - Game over

[Incognito]

Vote Count #1 of Day 1

Lawrencelot (2) <-~ Claus, springlullaby
hp [leaves] (2) <-~ Nuwen, Lawrencelot
Albert B. Rampage (1) <-~ q21
AceMarksman (1) <-~ ekiM
ekiM (1) <-~ AceMarksman
Nuwen (1) <-~ hp [leaves]

Not voting (1) <-~ Albert B. Rampage

With 9 alive, 5 will do it.

Saturday, May 16th at 7 P.M. EDT.

[ekiM]

What is an absolute scum tell? What is a universal scum tell?

I think the vast majority of scum tells are useless in RVS. Random votes are like white noise. You can detect a pattern if you try hard enough, but it's not actually telling you anything useful. I'm much happier once the game proper has started.

Nuwen: Is there a reason you asked a theoretical question which is seemingly removed from relevance to the current game (absolute/universal)? Would there be value in discussing theory relating to the set-up?

springlullaby: What do you make of players who lament the lack of activity in a game without actually adding anything new themselves?

Unvote; Vote: Albert B. Rampage

for being the last one to post.

[springlullaby]

springlullaby: What do you make of players who lament the lack of activity in a game without actually adding anything new themselves?

I would think that it's pretty scummy. Do mean to imply that I am such?

[ekiM]

What, 40+ pageview since last I checked in and only 2 meek random votes?

What are you lurkers afraid of?

Not particularly indicative, it just sounded a little off to me.

[springlullaby]

What, 40+ pageview since last I checked in and only 2 meek random votes?

What are you lurkers afraid of?

Not particularly indicative, it just sounded a little off to me.

It was a post to exhort people to participate. Why do you think it was off?

[ekiM]

It seems like providing something to respond to would get better responses than exhortation alone. For example, a theoretical question.

[Claus]

ekiM - are you proposing that Spring is scum?

[ekiM]

No. I don't find it scummy to say "Come on guys, contribute!", but I do think it unlikely to be effective at sparking useful discussion, and that other approaches may be more productive.

[hp [leaves]]

Interesting, we've had three consecutive instances of OMGUS:

Since my usual RVS fodder isn't here,

vote: ekiM

. OMGUS.

Unvote, Vote Nuwen

Lawrancelot is not even in this game.

Vote: hp [leaves]

for purposely confusing the town.

At least one of these votes comes from a town player, so I'd like to pose the following questions to the above voters:

1. Do you believe in any absolute

and

universal scum tells?
2. Do any of the above tells, if existent, carry less or more weight during RVS?

Consider the act of OMGUS voting. The term is commonly used to dispel gravity that a counter-vote has when two voters happen to be making cases against each other. However, we have three instances of pure OMGUS in a very straight line. Genuine OMGUS, I believe, is a very strong tell when it's used in the following situations: 1) Excuse to place a premeditated vote 2) Primary reason for building a counter-case ("He's voting for me because he's scum").

1. no
2. no weight

[Albert B. Rampage]

Vote ekiM

because he's Mikek's alt.

[Nuwen]

What is an absolute scum tell? What is a universal scum tell?

I think the vast majority of scum tells are useless in RVS. Random votes are like white noise. You can detect a pattern if you try hard enough, but it's not actually telling you anything useful. I'm much happier once the game proper has started.

Nuwen: Is there a reason you asked a theoretical question which is seemingly removed from relevance to the current game (absolute/universal)? Would there be value in discussing theory relating to the set-up?

springlullaby: What do you make of players who lament the lack of activity in a game without actually adding anything new themselves?

Unvote; Vote: Albert B. Rampage

for being the last one to post.

An absolute tell and a universal tell and precisely what that sound like - an absolute tell is an action with zero town motivation (self-hammering is commonly cited). A universal tell can be applied across any meta and is not dampened by circumstance.

Do you now understand the relevance of asking players who committed a universal & absolute tell ("lolol joke omgus is ok in rvs guyz")?

I think the vast majority of scum tells are useless in RVS. Random votes are like white noise. You can detect a pattern if you try hard enough, but it's not actually telling you anything useful. I'm much happier once the game proper has started.

I find this statement kinda naive. How and why do you think the transition from RVS to "proper play" occurs? Votes have a motivation

(or a patent lack thereof)

right out of the gate. A pattern will develop. Do you believe that pattern analysis seeks only to contrive links where there are none?

[AceMarksman]

I believe that I really don't know what direction you're trying to take with this, Newen. What point are you trying to make? Do you think the three of us who made the OMGUS votes are scum?

[Nuwen]

I believe that I really don't know what direction you're trying to take with this, Newen. What point are you trying to make? Do you think the

three

of us who made the OMGUS votes are scum?

Two

(

2

)

people will receive the following role:

At least one of these votes comes from a town player,

Obviously not.

I get to see who is reading, who is skimming, who applies what theory and where (and can get an idea of any inconsistencies in application), who is looking for an opportunistic direction to push the game. I'm not making a point because I have none to make; I'm gleaning information and setting my groundwork for scumhunting. Why aren't all of you doing the same?

[AceMarksman]

I'm gleaning information and setting my groundwork for scumhunting. Why aren't all of you doing the same?

And how are you to say that we aren't doing the same? I'm asking you of your intentions, am I not? Are you to say that is not scum hunting?

[ekiM]

An absolute tell and a universal tell and precisely what that sound like - an absolute tell is an action with zero town motivation (self-hammering is commonly cited). A universal tell can be applied across any meta and is not dampened by circumstance.

I guess I asked because it wasn't, in fact, clear to me what those terms meant. Thanks for explaining.

Do you now understand the relevance of asking players who committed a universal & absolute tell ("lolol joke omgus is ok in rvs guyz")?

I can see the relevance, but I'm not sure I understand why it is an absolute & universal tell. I can see there is no particular reason for a townie to do such a thing, but if it really is a universal & absolute tell then there is no reason for scum to do it either, as it will draw suspicion. And I definitely don't see why it is universal---why can't there exist players who never do it as scum, but will do it as town?

Why did you not also ask the players if they agree that a joke RVS OMGUS vote is an absolute & universal tell?

I think the vast majority of scum tells are useless in RVS. Random votes are like white noise. You can detect a pattern if you try hard enough, but it's not actually telling you anything useful. I'm much happier once the game proper has started.

I find this statement kinda naive. How and why do you think the transition from RVS to "proper play" occurs? Votes have a motivation

(or a patent lack thereof)

right out of the gate. A pattern will develop. Do you believe that pattern analysis seeks only to contrive links where there are none?

It may well be naive; I am new to the game of Mafia. I don't know how or why a series of arbitrary votes should actually lead to useful leads. I don't think attempted pattern analysis is pure contrivance, but in the white-noise of an RVS, I'm not convinced it's actually that likely to lead to credible leads. It does spark discussion, but I've yet to see evidence that these first scum tells gleaned from RVS are more accurate than random chance.

[q21]

Nuwen, your 17 comes off as weird. What do you mean by it?

I'd much rather gather everyone's ideas on theory than entertain the usual RVS rigmarole.

Weird?

Well, trying to push through the RSV is not, but the way you are doing it is, kinda, and I've got a couple of remarks. But you know what, I'll let you do your thing first. And comment afterwards.

Make remarks now... the theory discussion is getting us nowhere. if you have insightful remarks on the game they would be much more useful than deciding what is or isn't a universal/absolute scumtell.

[Lawrencelot]

Those 3 examples aren't really omgus because a) it's the random voting stage

Do you believe RVS relieves culpability from all actions, or just OMGUS?

As long as nothing weird happens (only random votes), it relieves culpability from all actions, but not totally. Random votes can still mean something, I think they usually just mean too little to provide any results, because it's, you know, random.

And btw, my vote was not OMGUS, I voted hp because he spelled my name wrong.

[springlullaby]

Nuwen, your 17 comes off as weird. What do you mean by it?

I'd much rather gather everyone's ideas on theory than entertain the usual RVS rigmarole.

Weird?

Well, trying to push through the RSV is not, but the way you are doing it is, kinda, and I've got a couple of remarks. But you know what, I'll let you do your thing first. And comment afterwards.

Make remarks now... the theory discussion is getting us nowhere. if you have insightful remarks on the game they would be much more useful than deciding what is or isn't a universal/absolute scumtell.

No. I want to observe this.

Btw, you are earning an automatic FOS for using ellipses, no kidding.

Fixed a quote tag. - Incog-Mod.

[q21]

You might as well vote for me now... cause I use ellipses all the time. I'm sorry. It just happens.


...also, I see little to no point in the theory discussion.

nuwen is scum for going on about a topic that has no real benefit to the town. springlullaby is her buddy for spurring her on.

Discuss.

[Lawrencelot]

What does 'using ellipses' mean?

And discussing theory is always better than staying in the RVS q21, I'd call anyone who opposes it scum sooner than anyone who uses it, unless it distracts anyone from scumhunting, which won't really happen in the RVS.

[AceMarksman]

What does 'using ellipses' mean?

An ellipse is three dots like: ...

[q21]

What does 'using ellipses' mean?

And discussing theory is always better than staying in the RVS q21, I'd call anyone who opposes it scum sooner than anyone who uses it, unless it distracts anyone from scumhunting, which won't really happen in the RVS.

Really - discussing theory is always better that RVS? The game staying in RVS would, eventually, achieve a lynch. It would be a bad lynch, most likely, but it would be a lynch. Theory discussion, on the other hand will eventually achieve... nothing.

unvote, vote nuwen.

Less theory, more scumhunting, please.

[AceMarksman]

I'm not liking q21's most recent posts. I think Newen's theory discussion was a way to move us out of the RVS.

[q21]

I'm not liking q21's most recent posts. I think Newen's theory discussion was a way to move us out of the RVS.

Yes. Out of RVS and into another equally, if not more, useless stage.

[Nuwen]

Yes. Out of RVS and into another equally, if not more, useless stage.

That's twice you've called microscopic meta useless.

Do you use meta considerations, both player-specific and site-wide, when playing mafia? Or do you treat each game autonomously?

Yes, this information is useful. The more information a player reveals, the easier it is to spot conflicting data. Determining a baseline for behavior is the most important part of the early game to me. If context is the most important part of mafia, then meta is a vital tool.