Newbie game balance

[Aelyn]

I like Yosarian's suggestion. It also takes the issues about an even number of players (and happily ever after and so on) out of the game. I also like Aelyn's suggestion, but I think there are a lot of potential pitfalls...

If the two power roles are the same, instead they're a vanilla Mason group.

A mason group would know there were no other power roles, so they could lynch any fake-claiming scum immediately.

I know...


OK, slight change. Now, one of the power roles is chosen at random from the four (note there's no guarantee that a power role will have power), but in the case of a repeated result the second is townie instead. If it's a repeated townie, then they're masons.

It does allow for the possibility of knowing fake-claim means scum, but it's such a low chance that it should simply encourage not automatically claiming if caught out - sometimes scum should fake town instead of doc or cop.

[Thok]

Every single time I've been in a newbie game as scum, I've won. Every single time I've been town, I've lost.

Newbie 107?

vote Yosarian

Lynch all Liars.

I guess to be fair, I should admit that I have a ridiculous record in Newbie games-something like 6-1 as town and 3-0 as scum. I will admit that it was much easier to win the games when I was scum (although I was also putting in much more effort when I was town).

[viper0933]

Wah!!! I want to play Mafia!! Wah!!!

[Pie_is_good]

I've modded Pie C9 (which, as mith reminds me, is not c9).

It's always the same setup:

Cop
Doctor
3 townies
Mafia
Mafia Roleblocker

...It seems fairly balanced from test runs, the RB defeats the purpose of the cop-claiming strategy (except to avoid lynch), and it invariably introduces both cop and doc as well as roleblocker and and the concept of a hierarchy within the scum.

[petroleumjelly]

I think the set-up I like the most, actually, is Pie's C9. It introduces three roles guaranteed, forces scum to look for Cop

and

Doctor tells, and shows the power of a role-blocker. It also gives a disincentive for Cops and Docs in claiming early, as their powers can be rendered useless the following night (hence making the "game-breaking" strategy less preferable).

Roles I am not comfortable with introducing to the newbie set-up town players are Role-Blocker and Vigilante. I can see a 1-Shot Vigilante in some circumstances, but I modded a Doctor/Role-Blocker set-up a while ago and the town got four lynches out of it, to win the game, which was much too powerful.

Otherwise, I am fine with the Newbie Set-Ups as they are, even though they heavily favor scum, in my opinion.

[Fiasco]

I also like the Pie alternative. Maybe it's worth trying as a regular mini once or twice to see how well it works on the forums. (I assume the test runs were in chat.)

[VisMaior]

Acyually I think the presence of a cop is a large factor in newbie games. I was planning to do an analysys on games with a cop living on day 2 and the rest of the games to see the effect, but I always was too lazy.

[Adele]

I definately think a change is due. Newbies are for new players, yeah, but they need ICs to coach while they play, and I for one am rethinking whether it's really worth doing my duty to the site and signing up to newbies when they tend to be among the most frutrating, dull and difficult games I play. I'm hanging in there, but if a change like this was made, my enthusiasm would shoot up.

[VisMaior]

I mean to differ. I think newbies are pretty good. Its just that the result depends so much on the cop that is not good.

[GreenLiquid]

I really do not think a vig should be in a newbie game. The game is just to small for the extra kills, plus if you put it in the hands of a newbie, he could potentially screw it up.

[Mastermind of Sin]

why not just let the mods choose which setups they want to use? I remember seeing a newbie game from before C9 where someone (STD, i think) had a cop, a doc, 2 mafia, a vig, an sk, and a roleblocker, or something like that. All the roles were basic, and I think allowing people to test newbie setups would help us in deciding some guidelines for future modding.

[GreenLiquid]

I remember seeing a newbie game from before C9 where someone (STD, i think) had a cop, a doc, 2 mafia, a vig, an sk, and a roleblocker, or something like that.

IIRC that game also didn't turn out very well for some reason.

[Adele]

I remember seeing a newbie game from before C9 where someone (STD, i think) had a cop, a doc, 2 mafia, a vig, an sk, and a roleblocker, or something like that.

IIRC that game also didn't turn out very well for some reason.

Up to three deaths a night, maybe?

[Alexander]

A game that can be potentially over on Night 1 isn't particularly good for teaching newbies how to play. Come to think of it, it's not particularly good for anything.

[Mr. Flay]

Newbie 69 had an SK, Mafia, Cop, Doc, Vig, Townies... Scum won D2, but the Vig did killed the SK, surprisingly, on the same night they got killed by the Mafia. Could have gone a lot differently...

I've been working on an analysis of trends in C9 games, but work's kicking my ass. I do think there's an additional factor, that our "newbies" are getting "newer"... I've had two games end recently where a pro-town player placed an early vote at Lynch-or-Lose D2, and made it all too easy for the scum...among other problems.

[GreenLiquid]

I remember seeing a newbie game from before C9 where someone (STD, i think) had a cop, a doc, 2 mafia, a vig, an sk, and a roleblocker, or something like that.

IIRC that game also didn't turn out very well for some reason.

Up to three deaths a night, maybe?

Um, yeah. (Note sarcasm). And the fact that the mod failed to abide by the sacred rule of Less is More.

[Thok]

I've been working on an analysis of trends in C9 games, but work's kicking my ass. I do think there's an additional factor, that our "newbies" are getting "newer"... I've had two games end recently where a pro-town player placed an early vote at Lynch-or-Lose D2, and made it all too easy for the scum...among other problems.

I'd be interested in seeing some of that analysis. I've got some other trends I want to analyze.

I also think that day one seems to be the most important day in newbie games, which is very much different from any other type of game on the site. I think the correlation between lynching scum or town day one and scum/town win is about as strong as the correlation between having a cop and scum town/win. This makes it important to be able to read and analyze tells (or to be able to avoid giving off scum tells).

I've seen a lot of C9 games where a townie makes a stupid play day one, immediately gets bandwagoned, and is unable or unwilling to defend themselves. This factor is incredibly frustrating and I'm not sure what to do about it. I'm naming it "Deer in the Headlights" syndrome for reference. This sort of behavior seems to be becoming more frequent in newbie games.

I also find that a lot of scum mistakes in newbie game simply arise from impatience (ranging from voting in lynch or lose to claiming before it is necessary).

Again, this is vague feel; I can't say for certain if my feelings about this are correct.

[Yosarian2]

(nods) I would agree with that. Very often, newbie games without a cop seem to involve one newbie acting really scummy day 1, getting lynched, and then the town going into day 2 with no useful information from the day 1 lynch and a very slim chance of winning at all.

[GreenLiquid]

I've seen a lot of C9 games where a townie makes a stupid play day one, immediately gets bandwagoned, and is unable or unwilling to defend themselves. This factor is incredibly frustrating and I'm not sure what to do about it. I'm naming it "Deer in the Headlights" syndrome for reference. This sort of behavior seems to be becoming more frequent in newbie games.

*Holds up a sign with a thumbs up*

[Mastermind of Sin]

I remember seeing a newbie game from before C9 where someone (STD, i think) had a cop, a doc, 2 mafia, a vig, an sk, and a roleblocker, or something like that.

IIRC that game also didn't turn out very well for some reason.

exactly. by giving it a test run, we're able to determine whether or not it's a good setup to reuse for newbies.

[Mr. Flay]

I've been working on an analysis of trends in C9 games, but work's kicking my ass. I do think there's an additional factor, that our "newbies" are getting "newer"... I've had two games end recently where a pro-town player placed an early vote at Lynch-or-Lose D2, and made it all too easy for the scum...among other problems.

I'd be interested in seeing some of that analysis. I've got some other trends I want to analyze.

Nothing much yet, but it looks like we've got about a 30% Town-win rate in post-Open Setup newbie games (I included the two pre-C9 variants, #68 & #69). Interestingly there's not much variation overall in length of game, # of posts, or Posts-per-player between Town wins and Scum wins. I haven't gotten roles associated in yet to see what the breakdown is among the four categories of C9.

I also think that day one seems to be the most important day in newbie games, which is very much different from any other type of game on the site.

Interesting observation. I'm inclined to agree, but don't see any way around it and still keep the games small and fast.

I think the correlation between lynching scum or town day one and scum/town win is about as strong as the correlation between having a cop and scum town/win. This makes it important to be able to read and analyze tells (or to be able to avoid giving off scum tells).

That'd be very interesting data to see. Right now my db won't be able to tell that, but I can add D1 lynches pretty quickly and see what shakes loose.

I also find that a lot of scum mistakes in newbie game simply arise from impatience (ranging from voting in lynch or lose to claiming before it is necessary).

Voting too early in lynch-or-lose is hard to quantify, but I'm seeing it too. #222 was over in ~8 days because a newbie melted down D1, and then some other townie voted early on D2.

[Turbovolver]

This thread is awesome.

[VisMaior]

I noticed if the IC players get killed and 3 newbies remain with 1 scum, the game tends to just halt there for quiet some while. The "too early vote in a LyLo" is also becoming more common.