In post 186, RadiantCowbells wrote:The most common paths to scum wins that I see in games are one where a significant faction of town scumread each scum but at least one scum had at least a few townies who hard townread them and defend them, and in the end town lynches people no one really thinks is going to flip scum as a compromise because the people hard defending wear out the people with correct scumreads until they give up on that read.
See: Shoshin, Volpe, but this is actually more common in games without me because I have no issues brute forcing a scum lynch over the objections of whichever townie hard defends them
In post 247, Ramcius wrote:When most have bad reads, being better than most isn't much, tbh
I will give you a piece of advice - do not try read everyone, it's okay to have null reads. If you not sure about your read, just say it, not force your read. Personally I feel like I make most mistakes, when I try force reads as opposed to reads that comes naturally to me
+1
I think that’s great advice, thanks. Yeah, sometimes I get asked to make a readslists when I either don’t have or have very few reads. So, I absolutely hate to be asked that. Asking me for reads, fine but I only like to make readslists when I want to and if I do what I’m asked when I’m not ready to make one, it usually gets shit on, so I’ve actually found it’s better to outright refuse than make a readslist you don’t feel at all confident on.
I think being honest about that is best because people can usually read sincerity.
Problem with readlists is that someone taught people that scum have hard time faking reads, ofc I love this dynamic as a scum, cause I just need throw out some readlist that is similar to most townies readlists and I can sit comfy for a while
In an aborted scumgame of mine, I was ask for one and immediately got tr because of it.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
I’m glad I can finally talk about this now. I just finished a game where I was death tunnelled in such a way, it felt almost like gaslighting. Shockingly enough, it came from town so it only RESEMBLED it but it seriously messed with my head to the point, I wanted to replace out, in order to not have to interact with this person and had I not been in a hydra, I probably would have. Because I experienced it as so toxic att, it was seriously messing with my head, to the point that it even affected me outside of the game. I was temporarily doubting and questioning myself about absolutely everything, I was seriously that confused as a direct result of it.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
"Let us say that you are right and there are two worlds. How much, then, is this 'other world' worth to you? What do you have there that you do not have here? Money? Power? Something worth causing the prince so much pain for?'"
"Well, I..."
"What? Nothing? You would make the prince suffer over... nothing?"
That isn’t what I said at all. I said, It felt exactly like gaslighting, the way it happened. And I mean, EXACTLY.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
In post 255, OkaPoka wrote:getting scumread by town as town is why mafia is kinda fun
It’s not fun, when the person doing it is acting like scum trying to gaslight you.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
In post 258, Ankamius wrote:mafia is designed around not being entirely sure who is on your side and trying to reach a common goal despite that
and any list of however many people will have vastly different personalities, some of which will naturally clash over time
yeah that's a recipe for toxicity if I've ever seen one!
I’ve never played League which was mentioned but I also think experience contributes to less toxic play. I have heard it from multiple people that they used to handle being wrongly sr, really really badly and they felt so bad about their reactions, that they consciously went about changing them and succeeded.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
I haven't read this entire thread but I just thought I'd toss in my two cents.
I've seen a bit of toxicity in regards to play styles and mistakes / disagreements on the "right" or "good" way to play (at least that's what I'm seeing) here, and I think a lot of it comes down to passive aggressive sort of comments, and sometimes a slight feeling of "I'm better than you" sorta stuff. Some of this might just be down to playing text-based, where you can't read peoples emotions or tones as they're speaking, but yeah.
I think a lot of the toxicity not only in Mafia, but in gaming and even life in general, would be removed/avoided by giving genuine, constructive criticism and attempts to help each other get better. Everyone's gonna have that big moment where they do something amazing, and then another where they absolutely butcher it and fail miserably. I doubt anyone is exempt from this. The thing also is that, even when good advice is given, some people just aren't gonna take that. I think in most cases it's a matter of either agreeing to disagree or just trying to lift each other up. It's all a game at the end of the day. Some of the fun is removed for me personally when I see toxicity in games.
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game
it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are
In post 264, Ankamius wrote:because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game
it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are
In post 264, Ankamius wrote:because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game
it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are
plus the dunning-kruger effect
That last sentence is rude, but I like it
As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
In post 264, Ankamius wrote:because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game
it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are
plus the dunning-kruger effect
That last sentence is rude, but I like it
As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.
In post 264, Ankamius wrote:because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game
it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are
plus the dunning-kruger effect
That last sentence is rude, but I like it
As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.
I'm well aware what Dunning-Kruger effect is
Your point?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
In post 264, Ankamius wrote:because the game is designed around specifically pulling everybody towards having a 50% win rate, which has the extra side effect of making it take longer to shift what level of play that you're being exposed to every game
it's very easy to hit the point where you don't feel like you're improving at all even if you are
plus the dunning-kruger effect
That last sentence is rude, but I like it
As described by social psychologists David Dunning and Justin Kruger, the cognitive bias of illusory superiority results from an internal illusion in people of low ability and from an external misperception in people of high ability; that is, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others.
I'm well aware what Dunning-Kruger effect is
Your point?
Well then, Dunning-Kruger effect is that stupid people value themselves way higher than they should and they value others way lower than they deserve, so saying that toxicity comes from Dunning-Kruger efect is same as saying that toxicity comes from people's stupidity. While calling other people stupid is rude, I completely agree with this idea
There were two parts to that, the second was that smart people undervalue their own capabilities and over value others but you’re right, pretty sure Ank meant the former.
I also think it’s fair to say that you need a bit of an ego to play mafia in general and apparently an even bigger one, to play league.
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
In post 271, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:There were two parts to that, the second was that smart people undervalue their own capabilities and over value others but you’re right, pretty sure Ank meant the former.
I also think it’s fair to say that you need a bit of an ego to play mafia in general and apparently an even bigger one, to play league.
People don't get toxic, when they undervalue themselves, so that part isn't really relevant. Ego is integral part of Dunning-Kruger effect - it's natural to have bigger ego, when you think really good about yourself and really bad about others, ofc it goes backwards too, your ego is lower, if you undervalue yourself
In post 271, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:There were two parts to that, the second was that smart people undervalue their own capabilities and over value others but you’re right, pretty sure Ank meant the former.
I also think it’s fair to say that you need a bit of an ego to play mafia in general and apparently an even bigger one, to play league.
People don't get toxic, when they undervalue themselves, so that part isn't really relevant. Ego is integral part of Dunning-Kruger effect - it's natural to have bigger ego, when you think really good about yourself and really bad about others, ofc it goes backwards too, your ego is lower, if you undervalue yourself
I agree there is no connection between having a lower ego and toxicity but I think that the obvious conclusion of the D-K effect would seem to be that one’s ego has a direct effect on accurate assessments. If you have a big ego, you are more likely to trust bad reads than if you have a low one. If you have a lower ego, you would be more likely to mistrust good reads but the real issue is whether of not one’s opinion of one’s play/reads etc. is based on actual evidence or just wishful thinking. If player X has over an 80% accuracy rate of nailing scum for example, than a “big ego” would then be justified but otoh, if you lack complete trust in your play/reads, being town in any game would be painful. Iow, how does one even begin to play mafia without some sort of larger ego?
***
We just need to tread carefully because if you slip up around her as scum she notices and will tear your spine out and slap you to death with it. (I'm slightly scared of Nancy)
~the worst
*******
Nancy is pretty heavenly ngl
~CheekyTeeky
*******
Nancy-scum feels like a hot knife slicing through butter. Nancy-town feels like a magnifying glass in the sun glaring down at an insect.
In post 271, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:There were two parts to that, the second was that smart people undervalue their own capabilities and over value others but you’re right, pretty sure Ank meant the former.
I also think it’s fair to say that you need a bit of an ego to play mafia in general and apparently an even bigger one, to play league.
People don't get toxic, when they undervalue themselves, so that part isn't really relevant. Ego is integral part of Dunning-Kruger effect - it's natural to have bigger ego, when you think really good about yourself and really bad about others, ofc it goes backwards too, your ego is lower, if you undervalue yourself
I agree there is no connection between having a lower ego and toxicity but I think that the obvious conclusion of the D-K effect would seem to be that one’s ego has a direct effect on accurate assessments. If you have a big ego, you are more likely to trust bad reads than if you have a low one. If you have a lower ego, you would be more likely to mistrust good reads but the real issue is whether of not one’s opinion of one’s play/reads etc. is based on actual evidence or just wishful thinking. If player X has over an 80% accuracy rate of nailing scum for example, than a “big ego” would then be justified but otoh, if you lack complete trust in your play/reads, being town in any game would be painful. Iow, how does one even begin to play mafia without some sort of larger ego?
Well, first thing that comes in mind, when you think about mafia isn't convincing people, but finding scum. Finding scum doesn't require huge ego
As for complete trust in their reads - who even has that? I admit that I often feign my confidence in my scumreads, because if people will feel my doubts, there's no way they'll listen me. Not that they listen anyway...