Mini 219: Tom Cruise Mafia -- It's a Wrap!

[Seol]

I'll be gone until Monday, and since more and more are commenting on my scumminess (and I'm afraid I might be getting it when Tally says she's ready to vote), I'll make a half-claim.

I'm immune to one lynching.

That's an awfully convenient ability to claim at this point in the game. It prompts one simple question:

You have to think - would no lynch hurt us? If it would then we don't lynch Astro yet. If not, that's fine by me. I'm pretty sure no lynch is extremely detrimental at the moment.

Therefore,

just by making that claim

, Astro is unlynchable today, and probably for the rest of the game.

Since this is something I don't think I've seen as scum ability, wasting your lynch on me would confirm my innocense.

What what what? I haven't seen that ability before, so I don't know about prior game metagaming, but that strikes me as a scum ability, not a pro-town one. It'd be helpful to have the rolename, that might help it make more sense - but if you're town, then the town is ridiculously buffed (which I expect means the scum are also pretty buffed). Not only would "wasting the lynch" to confirm your ability (already you're talking dismissively about the possibility, as if you're fully aware you're doing nothing more than trying to divert attention away) not prove jack shit about your alignment, I'd say it actually leans towards suggesting you're scum.

In fact, it looks to me like you're trying to give the impression that you're the SK. However, I think you're lying, and you don't have that ability at all. It's just

too

convenient.

I know we've got at least two cops (one of which we admittedly don't know the mechanics of), a vig, a doc, and two masons. With a setup like that, two Mafia and an SK doesn't

seem

enough, and Meme's an experienced mod and a very experienced player.

(I changed the italicised part)

MeMe's experience as a player and mod would definitely enable her, if she chose to do so, to balance a game which would appear otherwise. Given Astro's claim, and given that I think he's scummy, a free lynch could be such a balancing measure.

All I was saying there was my basis for thinking it was likely to be a 3-1 split. Seems to me you agree that a 3-1 split is the likely setup too, but it's possible Meme's buffed the scum other ways. Sure, that's possible (and if Astro is Mafia with that ability, then that'd probably be a sufficient buff - but obviously I hadn't anticipated that), but then, I never said it wasn't.

There has also been discussion after Astro's claim about his ability not appearing to be anything other than pro town. In my book, MeMe's experience would lead her to being able to foresee such reactions and therefore, deliberately include this.

Well, Astro said it looked pro-town, but nobody else referenced that until you did here - trying to plant that as accepted wisdom? And what exactly is that paragraph trying to say? Astro's ability looks pro-town, but knowing Meme, that means it might well not be? How WIFOMy. Personally, I just don't think it looks pro-town.

I know I try and think of what might be so ridiculous that one could get away with it when I try to introduce weird roles/mechanics in my games.

Of course, expect the unexpected. That doesn't mean dismiss the expected, though - and yet, that's what it looks like you're trying to do.

Would you call me experienced? However, it's all meta gaming.

That doesn't mean it's not a valuable thought process, and it can't be dismissed out of hand.

As for that post, I probably got distracted. I will dig it up and see if I need to address anything there.

Still waiting - or do you accept all my points there?

Or were you just hoping I'd forget about it again?

And I'm not averse to discussing it. There's just this little hint of knowledge about your posts that rubs me wrong.

And this is what I'm finding most scummy about you - you're arguing

against

there being a 3-1 split and attacking people for talking about it. I never said, and still don't, that we definitely have a 3-1 split - just that it was a likelihood based on the information available and we should bear it in mind. Let's rewind to earlier today -

If we started with three Mafia - which, with two cop roles, a doc, the world's stupidest vig (sorry Johnny, but it needs to be said) and a mason group too, is somewhat likely - we could well be on lynch-or-lose today. So we need to be very careful about making assumptions like this.

Oh and Seol - stupid vig or not. He's dead. There've been two kills both nights.
Lynch or lose? Don't think so yet.

Straight in with the dismissive tone, based on irrelevant reasoning (you're experienced enough to realise that having an SK in the mix makes no difference), then -

unvote: WindSlicer ; vote: Seol

What do you know/are trying to cover up?
Or am I being picky about the semantics now?

In with an attack - but for what? For considering that it's quite likely the scum setup is the same it usually is? Or for bringing that to the town's attention?

If it's lynch or lose, then we need to lynch Mafia today. You're trying to distract us from that possibility, even going into a lot of depth about the possible ways it could be some other setup that's balanced, but why would it be important to consider those possibilities? They're all better for the town, they don't need to be played around in the same way. It must be

because you're Mafia

, and you don't want anyone talking about it - you see that talk as a threat.

Oh and before you say - lynch or lose for the town, let me cover that as well since no evil people have died, they can still take potshots at each other. I'm not ready to despair yet.

There are two separate tells in this paragraph! Firstly the distinction between "lynch or lose" and "lynch or lose for the town", and secondly the talk about scum planning ahead with inside lynches.

Astro's current departure will stall things - but I'm happy voting either Yos or Seol. His half-claim is annoying. A name to go along with it would have been useful. Nowhere does he categorily state that he is not evil. People might ask, why I require this, but even in text medium, people don't like lying unless they're forced to. When you're a townie, you have no problem sayng you're town. Astro never said that with his claim, or even earlier - though I'm working off memory with this.

Now, isn't that interesting, because Tally's next post after this starts like so:

I'm not scum.

I'd say the complete opposite - going out of your way to say you're pro-town smacks of trying too hard, and it certainly rang alarm bells with me when Tally threw that in her post. It just looks artificial.

And in preview, I see the second time that Yos categorily presents both sides of the argument, trying to be helpful while he adds no content whatsoever. The first would be post 259.

So whilst before you were attacking him for attacking yourself and not me, looking at just the side of the argument he thought was most important, now you're attacking him for looking at both sides? You're a difficult man to please, Phoebus.

[Seol]

So, masons? We doing this mass claim thing? I think you two should be the ones to decide who claims first.

Fuldu suggested I claim first - are we just claiming names, or full roles?

I'm

Jack

, from Legend.

I've been thinking about it, and I'm not sure that it is going to help a lot... I can't think who the scum will be, is Tom Cruise ever a bad guy?

He was in Collateral.

Is it possible that the scum could claim their own roles and we'd never know they are scum?

I'm expecting that, at least, a name claim from Astro would be helpful. That's why (again at Fuldu's suggestion that I choose who picks next) I'd like to hear his rolename. It's Monday now, so we shouldn't be waiting long.

I still think it's our logical next step though. I'm just not sure enough on who is working together. The Seol/Yosarian thing was obvious, but I tend to think it was a little too obvious And Phoebus has been pushing it pretty hard.. my gut says there's a good chance he's mafia with one of them (Seol probably), and Yosarian is innocent, or opposing scum.

I was thinking that too (obviously Yosarian as Phoebus' partner) - there's something about:

since no evil people have died, they can still take potshots at each other

that makes me think we can't learn anything about Phoebus from who he's attacking.

[MeMe]

Count

:

Everyone

(0):

No one

Huh.

[Phoebus]

Yosarian

Don't bother with the PBPA. With my

vote: Yosarian2

, you are probably going to retaliate.

Seol

I skimmed your post. I agree that Astro is probable scum and that his ability is prolly more useful for evil.
As for the other post, I can't be arsed now.
Hard man to please? Sure.

I would agree with half of all your posts and disagree with all of them.
From where I'm standing, I'm making sense. This happened in Jaguar's Egypt mafia as well. I had the whole game lined up for the townies (I was SK there) but scum managed to beat everything down by spinning things. Slightly batty townies did not help the mix either. I had to die and the cop as well plus an excruciatingly long endgame before the town won.
I don't know whether I said it here or elsewhere, but there will probably never be cold clear logic to my posts. All I know is I've done pretty good with pinging scum in minis lately, whether I have been able to explain my reasons are not. Sometimes I've become Cassandra, other times I've been standing tall at the end.
Here, I've tried to explain my way. Apparently, nobody can/wants to see it that way.
Again, it doesn't help that the two people I'm convinced are scum are the ones who're stretching things out.

Want to call this defeat? Want to call this scummy? Be my guests. I will supply a claim when my turn comes. Though it's great to see games coming down to claims on day two.

While I'm on this, let me throw a titbit out.
This pertains especially to Tally's wondering who scum are. I've been wondering the same thing. We have to keep in mind that this is Tom Cruise mafia and not "roles of Tom Cruise". He has other strings attached to him. Some current. Some old. Some never attached but have had some effect on him. I don't see any Cruise role harming him or other roles. However, we could have other people/roles etc. Was there any movie where there was an actual, cut-set arch villain? Who'd have it in for Cruise?

I was in MeMe's last game - American Idol, where along with contestants and judges, roles ranged from "Your Secret Past" which was the SK to "AT&T Wireless subscriber" who was the backup cop. Having said this, the mass claim seems apt. Doesn't mean it's fun though. Oh well.

Legend - throws up material on Lords of Darkness and whatnot.
Meh.

[Yosarian2]

Yosarian

Don't bother with the PBPA. With my

vote: Yosarian2

, you are probably going to retaliate.

I suppose it's too much to ask that you give an actual reason for your vote, huh? Or at least try to explain what you meant by some of your earlier uber-vague attacks on me? For example, explain what you mean by me being "brazenly smooth" and how that is supposed to be a scum tell? Or why you've pretty consistantly misrepresented my posts all day? Or why you're only suspicious of people who are suspicious of you?

If you could explain why you are suspicious of me, instead of just throwing generic, meaningless accusations against me, and then refusing to explain or defend them when asked, then I would be more inclined to think that you might be a misguided townie instead of a manipulating scum.

For the record, I don't "retaliate" with my votes, I vote for whoever I am most suspicius of at that moment. Right now, it's a toss-up between you and Astro, and there's no way I'm going to let Astro off the hook for his scummy looking sudden day 2 lurking until he starts posting more.

I don't know whether I said it here or elsewhere, but there will probably never be cold clear logic to my posts. All I know is I've done pretty good with pinging scum in minis lately, whether I have been able to explain my reasons are not. Sometimes I've become Cassandra, other times I've been standing tall at the end.

Translation: Don't ask for reasons for my actions and words, everyone, just blindly follow whatever I say. You can trust me. Really.

Here, I've tried to explain my way. Apparently, nobody can/wants to see it that way.

You have not explained anything at all. You are getting more and more vague and less and less willing to explain or defend or elaborate on anything the more the day goes on, and yet even while your arguments are getting more and more specious and illogical, you seem to be getting more and more convinced that you know who is scum and who should be lynched today.

Want to call this defeat? Want to call this scummy? Be my guests. I will supply a claim when my turn comes. Though it's great to see games coming down to claims on day two.

I don't really care that much about claims; they're too easy to fake, especally on a game with so many possible roles. I look at behavior, and so far today, you have acted in a way that I would more likely expect scum to act then in a way I would expect a good guy to act.

[Yosarian2]

As for the discussion about the possible setup, I still think a 3-1 split is unlikely, for the simple reason that if there's 3 mafia and 1 SK in a game that starts with night, all the town has to do is miss the day 1 lynch (which the town usually does) and there's a risk that on day 2 the GG's will the minority. That just dosn't seem very balanced to me.

[Astronaut]

His half-claim is annoying. A name to go along with it would have been useful.

Claiming role names helps scum when they're looking for false claims, hence the half-claim. But since you asked: I'm Lestat de Lioncourt from Interview with the Vampire.

Nowhere does he categorily state that he is not evil.

I am not evil. I am a strong townie, able to survive one lynching. I win with town.

If there is a singular killer in this game I'm guessing it's Yosarian or Astronaut. Mainly because I can see things shaping up to lynch one of those 2 today, and I assume that the mafia would be trying to lynch the SK.

If you really believe that, you should be lynching someone else today. If you look at the accusations being thrown around, I'm being attacked by several people, while Phoebus seems to be the only one suspicious of Yosarian.

Because however subtly, Yos has shielded Seol, who still rubs me slightly wrong.

I don't think he's been at all subtle about it. Yos has been supporting Seol more openly than I'd dared if I were scum, but it makes me suspicious of the both of them.

In fact, it looks to me like you're trying to give the impression that you're the SK. However, I think you're lying, and you don't have that ability at all. It's just

too

convenient.

Of course having two lives is convenient, MeMe must really like me, don't you think? My claim would probably be a good one for scum, but that's just my luck. Since this is my role, it's the one I had to claim. And no, I'm not your SK.


People are arguing that my ability is more likely to be seen in scum roles. I hear MeMe's got a reputation for creating interesting roles, but giving scum several lives give them a game-breaking advantage unless town's got some incredible powers.

[inHimshallibe]

Lestat... interesting. Next?

[Yosarian2]

Is there a specific order we're claiming in at this point? And are we claiming names, or full roles?

[inHimshallibe]

Names first, I think. And I believe you are up after Astro.

Yos
Phoebus
Talitha

[Yosarian2]

Ok. I am Pete “Maverick” Mitchell, from Top Gun.

[Phoebus]

Katie Holmes.

[Talitha]

It's my turn... I think? Is that a serious claim Pip?

[Phoebus]

It very definitely is.
It's the reason why I said that the mafia could probably be Cruise enemies in the movie or iRL if there were any. He hasn't played any evil characters, has he?
The claims of both Astro and Seol are rubbing me the wrong way. The Cruise characters might seem OK but their movies give off wrong vibes.

I shall reflect on Yos, pending his power claim. Maverick was rather the arrogant prat. If at all there is a Cruise role mafia, I think he would be a person who would think that he could get away with murder.

unvote: Yos

[Talitha]

Interesting.

I'm Brian Flanagan from Cocktail.

[inHimshallibe]

I see. Thanks.

First off, I consider Katie Holmes = scum, or Katie Holmes = BS claim = scum. Phoebus, you got some explaining to do.

[Phoebus]

How is Katie scum?
It isn't BS. You want to outguess the mod by wearing blinders?
There's a reason I picked up on Tally's wonderings and added my two cents.

It's not a claim out of the blue. That argument was backed by theory. Including both, my current claim and MeMe's previous games.

I'm a hider.

[inHimshallibe]

And you'd like me to believe your claim? The "blinders" comment isn't helping that pro-town attitude. And the "theorizing" appears to be nothing more than a set up.

Also of note: MeMe

really

doesn't like Legend. I've read her review of it. I'm pondering if bias possibly went into Jack's role somehow?

[Fuldu]

Well, of those name claims, the one that seems the least probable to me is Seol's. Phoebus' claim is questionable, but he's right that MeMe throws odd roles into a game, and since our SK (same kill type twice means same player) is medicating people, he's probably a Ritalin-prescribing doctor. So it isn't going to be all Cruise roles. The thing I found most troublesome about Phoebus' claim is actually that he tacked on that he's a hider. I wasn't asking for powers in this claim, but he handed it out anyway. It seems more like the choice of a player who doesn't want to be targeted for a kill at night than one who hopes to be so that no one will die. I think Phoebus is the SK, which means that I don't want to vote for him today.

So, aside from the fact that he had to go first and came up with the worst name claim, I also didn't like this sentence from Seol:

I'm expecting that, at least, a name claim from Astro would be helpful. That's why (again at Fuldu's suggestion that I choose who picks next) I'd like to hear his rolename.

It seems a little too concerned about what people might think that he's supporting the name claim. "I'm not the one who wanted this. It's Fuldu, he suggested it. I'm just doing what he said."

vote: Seol

As an aside to inHim, there was a reason that I wanted each player to select who claimed next rather than just making a list the way you did. If Seol is scum, then his choosing Astronaut decreases the likelihood that Astronaut is scum, since it's to scum's benefit to get all the real claims out there before their turns come. But since that was the only choice made by someone other than you, that's the only conclusion we can draw. Please pay attention to instructions in the future.

[Seol]

The claims of both Astro and Seol are rubbing me the wrong way. The Cruise characters might seem OK but their movies give off wrong vibes.

Reads to me like: I don't want to like these claims but I can't think of a reason to criticise them, so I'll talk in vague, uncertain terms like "vibes".

I shall reflect on Yos, pending his power claim. Maverick was rather the arrogant prat. If at all there is a Cruise role mafia, I think he would be a person who would think that he could get away with murder.

More so than Lestat (who killed for pleasure and food) or Vincent (who killed for a living)? You're flailing, Phoebus.

Also of note: MeMe really doesn't like Legend. I've read her review of it. I'm pondering if bias possibly went into Jack's role somehow?

Well, of those name claims, the one that seems the least probable to me is Seol's.

They can't both be true, surely - if Meme's got strong feelings about the film, how is it improbable?

And inhim, if Meme's feelings on Legend are well-known, would she be so obvious as to cast Jack as scum?

So, aside from the fact that he had to go first and came up with the worst name claim, I also didn't like this sentence from Seol:

I'm expecting that, at least, a name claim from Astro would be helpful. That's why (again at Fuldu's suggestion that I choose who picks next) I'd like to hear his rolename.

It seems a little too concerned about what people might think that he's supporting the name claim. "I'm not the one who wanted this. It's Fuldu, he suggested it. I'm just doing what he said."

I was concerned about claiming the

right way

, that's all. It's important that the claim method is determined by someone we can trust. Otherwise you can get cock-ups like so:

As an aside to inHim, there was a reason that I wanted each player to select who claimed next rather than just making a list the way you did. If Seol is scum, then his choosing Astronaut decreases the likelihood that Astronaut is scum, since it's to scum's benefit to get all the real claims out there before their turns come. But since that was the only choice made by someone other than you, that's the only conclusion we can draw. Please pay attention to instructions in the future.

I pointed out I was following your instructions partly to justify my picking the next claimant, but mostly to highlight those instructions so everyone else would follow them too. Maybe I should have been clearer.

[inHimshallibe]

I apologize... but then again, it's just a game.

[Fuldu]

I think Phoebus is the SK, which means that I don't want to vote for him today.

This was poorly phrased. What I was trying to say was that

if Phoebus is scum

, I think he's the SK.

[Yosarian2]

I think Phoebus is the SK, which means that I don't want to vote for him today.

This was poorly phrased. What I was trying to say was that

if Phoebus is scum

, I think he's the SK.

Interesting speculation. Where do you get that idea from?

Personally, I was thinking that if Astro is scum, his most likely partner is Phoebus, because of the wierd way the two of them appear to have been trying to distance themselves from each other with weak attacks for each other while always having stronger attacks on others in the same posts.

[Yosarian2]

[

Interesting speculation. Where do you get that idea from?

Personally, I was thinking that if Astro is scum, his most likely partner is Phoebus, because of the wierd way the two of them appear to have been trying to distance themselves from each other with weak attacks for each other while always having stronger attacks on others in the same posts.

Acually, scratch that. I was getting that impression based on Phoebus's day 2 posts, but on a re-read it looks like Phoebus did appear to be applying some actual pressure on Astro day 1. Now I'm not so sure.

[Astronaut]

I think Phoebus is the SK, which means that I don't want to vote for him today.

This was poorly phrased. What I was trying to say was that

if Phoebus is scum

, I think he's the SK.

I second that. Nobody's really sided with him so far, so if he's got partners, he/she is among the less talkative here. I won't exclude the idea that he's our SK, but the mafia is the ones we want to look for at the moment, right?