New Newbie Setup

[RadiantCowbells]

it IS possible i'm trying to change too little. but just the sheer townsidedness of the setup as a whole is hurting scum morale and making scum perform worse.
when you don't think you can win b/c the setup as a whole is townsided, it makes you lose in setups that aren't necessarily all that townsided.

so i think it's better to err towards running setups that are at balance levels comparable to the ones that were 50/50 in m6 days + scum daytalk and move further from there if necessary

[RadiantCowbells]

i also remember the scum daytalk in newbies experiment where scum won an ungodly number of games in a row. scum are now losing in those same setups with daytalk.
when the mentality is that scum are crushing with daytalk, scum tend to crush with daytalk.
when the mentality is that town are bowling over scumteams, scumteams tend to get bowled over.

streakiness of this sort happens. i also don't think that towns are playing

better

as much as scum are playing

worse

. maybe that'll change when scum believe they have a fighting chance.

[OkaPoka]

Make all the goons backups

[Ankamius]

i also don't think that towns are playing better as much as scum are playing worse.

It might be worth looking at SE scum skill over time to see if it has any relevance to this

[RadiantCowbells]

it's not a newbie queue specific problem

[chennisden]

People get townread for being competent because of scum's decline I think

[chennisden]

Goon/Goon Cop and Jailkeeper are problematic though - especially Jailkeeper.

Why? Both were reasonable in Matrix6.

Goon/Goon JK requires what 1 locktownread to win

[chennisden]

Uh at D2 or D3 or something I forget the details

Oh and it also requires a scumflip hmm

I'm thinking of that game where everyone spammed the thread to 200 pages

[popsofctown]

We need a mafia mentorship queue

[Ankamius]

it's not a newbie queue specific problem

I agree, I'm more asking whether it's affecting the newbie queue via SEs or another cause

[popsofctown]

I think I'd be pretty happy if I saw post 266 implemented into the queue like immediately.
C2 would be my least favorite cell because jailkeepers can accomplish an awful lot sometimes, but it's probably fine and even to the extent it's not fine, having 1 particular cell that presents some sturdy town power could be very valuable for data collection.
I think it looks really really good.

[Ircher]

I think I'd be pretty happy if I saw post 266 implemented into the queue like immediately.
C2 would be my least favorite cell because jailkeepers can accomplish an awful lot sometimes, but it's probably fine and even to the extent it's not fine, having 1 particular cell that presents some sturdy town power could be very valuable for data collection.
I think it looks really really good.

I second this.

[PenguinPower]

Giving a chance for a bit more feedback, but I am of the same opinion.

[PenguinPower]

Want to confirm RC wants to call it NewD3 as well.

[popsofctown]

NewD3 doesn't sound like a great name to me. Every most recent D3 is a "new D3".
I'd suggest "D3-2019", "Friendly D3"(seems unlikely the subsequent D3 will have an equal or greater number of Masons and Friendly Neighbors), "RCD3" (not great because I bet he might design multiple popular D3s), or "D3 3.0" where 3.0 is corrected to however many D3's the newbie queue has actually gone through.
It's not a hill I want to die on or anything, most important thing is to just name it something. Just .02.

[callforjudgement]

I dislike most of the setups that have been suggested in here. I don't dislike #266.

FWIW, it may be clearest just to list the nine possible setups and pick one at random; there shouldn't have to be a need to write everything in the form of a matrix. Nine isn't all that many setups (and I much prefer it if people name setups via their power role combinations rather than "A3" or "C2" or the like, the latter's not very useful if you don't have its meaning memorised).

[popsofctown]

I think the benefit to a matrix is that if a scum PR flips confirms which column you're in you can quickly see what your three possible setups are.

However, the rows have no meaning whatsoever, if you swap A1 and A3 it's the same setup.

So maybe three lists of three?

I have kind of shared your sentiment about the matrix presentation in the past.
Sometimes I'm like "wait is this chess".
I don't have the data on what the newbie impression of seeing a matrix is but I speculate it's unhelpful.

[Not Known 15]

NewD3	Column A	Column B	Column C
Mafia	Goon / Roleblocker	Goon / Role Cop	Goon/Goon
Row 1	Cop / Doctor	Tracker / Friendly Neighbour	Cop
Row 2	Jailkeeper / Tracker	Jailkeeper / Friendly Neighbour	Jailkeeper
Row 3	Mason / Mason	Tracker / Doctor	Mason / Mason

A1:A3 of the current setups. About 77% win rate. However, Doctor in this setup is suspicious(until a the RB dies), so it might perform differently here.
A2:Roleblocker instead of Rolecop might indeed make this slightly townsided, but still ok. But there is a tracker claim strategy...
A3:Well, Masons can be tried, but don't wonder if they don't achieve much and the setup is scumsided. It's something that simply needs to be tried.
B1:IC/Tracker vs Rolecop - I am sceptic. We have a false guilty with the FN(although it can be definitely proven as town unless CC) and Tracker itself is less powerful than a Cop. On the other hand, the data we have shows that we might have underestimated the power of a tracker in 9p as all Tracker setups are highly townsided. Worth trying it out.
B2:Jailkeeper is very powerful if it can't be roleblocked. And the FN will probably make use of it. There is a bit negative synergy due to roleblocking... but Jailkeeper without Roleblocker is significantly more powerful so it wouldn't surprise me if this would be a bit more townsided than it should.
B3:T/D was a bit too poweful against two goons and this helps mafia to find the doctor for Night 2 faster. Might be ok. But there is a tracker claim strategy...
C1: Cop alone has been a bit on the low side, but barely. Cop creates an easy fakeclaim - Doctor, with a roleblocker present.... Might be borderline ok since there are less fakeclaimable roles and the prevalence of this setup is higher.
C2:Tracker can't be fakeclaimed in time, often, because there is a claim strategy. FN fakeclaim is... dangerous, very dangerous. This will be very townsided(especially considering the prior high town win rate).
C3: Not many differences to A3

Claim strategy:
Tracker claims D2; unless a Doctor/Jailkeeper/Mafia Roleblocker died or claimed.
Why?
In B3 there is a doctor. Tracker is protected. If they have been caught by the rolecop then ... thats better than them not claiming anyways.
In A2 they can confirm themselves by claiming early; it would be very risky for mafia to claim tracker in C2 before they know who their enemy is so they can be trusted if there is a Jailkeeper. In contrast, if they don't claim in time(before JK claims) there is little reason to trust this claim. Unless, of course, they have an actual guilty.

[Errantparabola]

RCD3" (not great because I bet he might design multiple popular D3s), o

R2D3

[popsofctown]

I don't think that claim strategy is optimal. You're making the rolecop's job easier, which is especially meaningful when the Rolecop is hunting for the Friendly Neighbor. I think it's close but not quite optimal.

I think if these tracker setups are too strong anything but mountainous is going to be too strong. Tracker gives the mafia a lot of agency that allows them to counterplay the role if they've been effective in the dayplay by having the deepwolf perform the kill or tossing the obvscum away if there's been effective distancing. If mafia aligned players' play can't improve to the point where they can deal with trackers they're just not going to be able to deal with anything.

[Not Known 15]

I don't think that claim strategy is optimal. You're making the rolecop's job easier, which is especially meaningful when the Rolecop is hunting for the Friendly Neighbor. I think it's close but not quite optimal.

I think if these tracker setups are too strong anything but mountainous is going to be too strong. Tracker gives the mafia a lot of agency that allows them to counterplay the role if they've been effective in the dayplay by having the deepwolf perform the kill or tossing the obvscum away if there's been effective distancing. If mafia aligned players' play can't improve to the point where they can deal with trackers they're just not going to be able to deal with anything.

You are right, the Friendly Neighbour should claim first Day 2(Unless the other PR died, of course), and if there is no FN, THEN a tracker claims.
There is little reason for the FN not to claim Day 2; they might have been rolecopped or FN'ed scum. And that means that the other PR might survive longer.
I don't know why you think I said that tracker setups are OP by itself, I have not.

[popsofctown]

Wasn't sure

[RadiantCowbells]

Tracker claim strategies don't exist in individual setups they exist in the entire game.

It is overall suboptimal for tracker to claim in a way it isn't in 2d3, therefore it's not likely to happen.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm also curious why you think it's optimal for friendly neighbors to claim D2. They're the least lynchable role and narrowing it down to a 50/50 whether the tracker claim is a good idea isn't really worth outing them?

[RadiantCowbells]

Also you'll note that an unfinished kill in the last column guarantees to scum that there's a jailkeeper and in doing so gives them carte blanche to make multiple safe fakeclaims, something they don't have right now.

B2 is a sketchy setup for itself but it existing is super good for the setup at large completely kills the impetus for town to try to tracker claim to prevent this and shouldn't be too out of order balance wise.