Mini #1647: Eine Kleine Nacht-Mord, Game Over


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Post Post #300 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:25 am

Post by TellTaleHeart »

In post 293, Derangement wrote:
In post 267, TellTaleHeart wrote:Does he prefer to play town or scum? (CDB, you can answer this if you see it first.)

Would it make a difference? :P

Yes!

People who prefer one alignment over another are generally going to put more effort into the one they prefer.
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Post Post #301 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 2:38 am

Post by TellTaleHeart »

In post 297, petroleumjelly wrote:
Day One, Vote Count #11


LlamaFluff – 3 – prawneater, Untrod Tripod, onion
Marquis – 3 – TellTaleHeart, GuyInFreezer, Derangement
onion – 1 – ChannelDelibird
prawneater - 1 - Onion Bubs
Untrod Tripod – 1 – LlamaFluff

With
11 alive
it takes
6
to lynch and
4
to lynch at deadline. Deadline is
March 5, 2015, at 6:45 AM PST
.

Not Voting – 2 – Equinox, Marquis

I think Llama and CDB's votes, especially CDB's, are stale and are in need of some refreshing (either refined reasoning or a new read). I'm still anxiously awaiting Marquis' catch-up.
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Post Post #302 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 6:39 am

Post by onion »

i guess i'm doing a bad job of explaining it, so i'll try harder, using your pretty logic symbols no less.

Town!Llama
is a result in which it is revealed that Llama is town aligned. This can be the result of him dying, or possibly power-role related whatnot, or maybe even a really really convincing argument. anything that lets us know he's town aligned. the same symbol will be used to scum aligned and for other people.

a scum aligned Llama would imply that Tripod is not scum aligned, because Tripod L-1'd Llama on page 2. scum can't communicate during the day (Right, Mod?) and because they couldn't have known where the random votes would fall, it couldn't have been planned. Without planning it, it is unlikely that scum would L-1 scum. or to put it in logical symbolism:

1)
(A) Scum!Llama
-->
(D) Town!Tripod


--> is 'implies'. A --> D means 'if A is true, then D is true'. We aren't using it in its true meaning right now, because its sort of a math thing and we don't have mathematical accuracy here. i'm using it to mean '... then D very well probably is true.'

Implication statements don't say anything extra about the situation. This statement is only meaningful if the antecedent A is true. it becomes meaningless if A is not true, or if the consequent D becomes known. so keep that in mind.

Llama flipping scum would be doubly good for us, because we'd have killed a scum, and provided a very convincing argument for Town!Tripod, and then we could ignore and minimize his anti-town behavior, and everything would be happy. we'd deal with a scum and an anti-town in one go, it'd be amazing.

now then, there are other conditionals my previous posts talk about.

2)
(B) Town!Llama
-->
(C) Scum!Tripod


This one is even less definite. i wish i had other symbols to represent degrees of certainty. However, llama flipping town would mean that Tripod really did L-1 and ask to hammer a known townie on page 2. That might very well tip the scales from Anti-town to you-dirty-scum. it would be a stronger argument than anything we have right now, but there might exist other strong arguments by the time we get this one, so we'll just have to deal with it again when it comes up tomorrow.

Ya know, i'm going to use length of implication arrow to represent degree of certainty. a longer arrow is more likely than a shorter arrow.

----> i'll eat my keyboard if this isn't true
---> very probably true
--> probably true
-> mebbe...

so those are:

1)
(A) Scum!Llama
--->
(D) Town!Tripod

2)
(B) Town!Llama
-->
(C) Scum!Tripod


could either of these fuck up? sure. it is remotely possible that tripod L-1'd his scumbuddy on page 2, but yeah it seems pretty damn unlikely. its only a degree of certainty after all.

Now we will explore lynching Tripod first, which is not something i recommend.

3)
(C) Scum!Tripod
--->
(B) Town!Llama


for the exact same reasons as used in conditional 1. Because one L-1'd the other, they very probably aren't both scum.

4)
(D) Town!Tripod
->
(A) Scum!Llama


yeah i dunno about this one. If this happened all we'd know is that a townie known for bullshit behavior L-1'd someone of unknown alignment on page 2. it IS a confirmed townie'd suspicions of another player, so weight can be placed on it, but not too much. i probably wouldn't lynch Llama from this evidence alone.

And so because the net results of a Llamalynch, regardless of result, are better for town than a tripod lynch, i prefer lynching Llama over Tripod at this time. Derangement, you like your logic symbols, so please indicate which bit in there you don't like and we can hash it out. They seem pretty good as far as i can think. Keep in mind that these are conditionals and only mean exactly what they say. they don't work backwards or anything like that.
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Post Post #303 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:41 am

Post by LlamaFluff »

Anyone else realize that onion is basically basing his vote on the fact that he thinks that if I was scum it would mean UT is probably town and if I am town is a small tell against UT (which is something I could say for about half a dozen pairs). Also (maybe?) him not understanding my votes - note this isn't not liking reasoning but its not understanding which as far as I can tell he is the only player who actually doesn't understand it. Times like this is where its nice that he basically made posts that are basically town slips.

Vote Prawn


Again. You basically made statements that no matter who I was voting I was scum because it would be a "preservation vote" unless I was voting a player with no votes. The reaction of actually being concerned about how you are being read meta wise concerns me as if you are town, there would really be no concern about what you are doing.
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Post Post #304 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:45 am

Post by Derangement »

In post 303, LlamaFluff wrote:Anyone else realize that onion is basically basing his vote on the fact that he thinks that if I was scum it would mean UT is probably town and if I am town is a small tell against UT (which is something I could say for about half a dozen pairs). Also (maybe?) him not understanding my votes - note this isn't not liking reasoning but its not understanding which as far as I can tell he is the only player who actually doesn't understand it. Times like this is where its nice that he basically made posts that are basically town slips.

I'd have been voting him right now, if not for those slips. :P
As it is, I'm struggling with myself, trying to decide how likely scum!Onion would be to purposefully townslip like that.
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Post Post #305 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:48 am

Post by Equinox »

Sorry, guys. I've been unexpectedly V/LA for this past weekend, but I will catch up on this game tonight.
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Post Post #306 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:01 am

Post by Derangement »

I think I get where the disconnect is coming from, now. :]

I'll spoiler the following bit, because it's mostly logic theory, and not actual scum-hunting.

Spoiler: How implication works
In its simplest form, and adopting Onion's arrow-length conviction-o-meter™,
( X ----> Y ) means "If X is true, then Y must be true".

I disagree with part of this quote:
In post 302, onion wrote:
Implication statements don't say anything extra about the situation. This statement is only meaningful if the antecedent A is true. it becomes meaningless if A is not true, or if the consequent D becomes known. so keep that in mind.


If X is false, then yes, the implication tells us nothing about Y.

But, if Y is false, then we
can
use the implication to figure something out:
If X were true, then the implication tells us that Y needs to be true as well, which would be inconsistent with our premise of a false Y.
This means that X
cannot
be true, when Y is false.

  • So, (X ----> Y) is equivalent to (Not X <---- Not Y).



How uncertainty works

Now that we understand how regular implication works, we can add uncertainty to the mix, and repeat the same thought process. :]
Assume Y is false in the following three examples.

Take ( X ---> Y ), or its english version "If X is true, then Y is very likely to be true".
If X were true, then Y would be very likely to be true as well, which is not possible.
This means that X is very likely to be false.
  • So, (X ---> Y) is equivalent to (Not X <--- Not Y)


Likewise, take ( X --> Y ), or "If X is true, then Y is probably true".
If X is true, then Y would probably be true as well, which is impossible.
This means that X is probably false.
  • So, (X --> Y) is equivalent to (Not X <-- Not Y)


Finally, take ( X -> Y ), or "If X is true, then Y
might
be true".
If X is true, then Y
might
be true as well: an inconsistency.
This means that X
might
be false.
  • So, (X -> Y) is equivalent to (Not X <- Not Y)



Conclusion

If you assign a certain degree of certainty to the belief that "if X then Y", you
must
also assign the same degree of certainty to "if Not Y, then Not X", for your belief to be consistent.

With this in mind, we can look at Onion's premises.

Spoiler: Onion's presented argument
In post 302, onion wrote:
1)
(A) Scum!Llama
--->
(D) Town!Tripod

2)
(B) Town!Llama
-->
(C) Scum!Tripod


could either of these fuck up? sure. it is remotely possible that tripod L-1'd his scumbuddy on page 2, but yeah it seems pretty damn unlikely. its only a degree of certainty after all.

These
are
equivalent to:
1')
(B) Town!Llama
<---
(C) Scum!Tripod

2')
(A) Scum!Llama
<--
(D) Town!Tripod


Statements (1/1') mean that it's very unlikely that both Llama and Tripod are scum.
I'm okay with this.

(2/2') tell us that
probably at least one of Llama/Tripod is scum
.
I'm not as certain of this as onion is, but let's keep his view in mind, since it's his argument.

In post 302, onion wrote:
Now we will explore lynching Tripod first, which is not something i recommend.

3)
(C) Scum!Tripod
--->
(B) Town!Llama


for the exact same reasons as used in conditional 1. Because one L-1'd the other, they very probably aren't both scum.

4)
(D) Town!Tripod
->
(A) Scum!Llama


yeah i dunno about this one. If this happened all we'd know is that a townie known for bullshit behavior L-1'd someone of unknown alignment on page 2. it IS a confirmed townie'd suspicions of another player, so weight can be placed on it, but not too much. i probably wouldn't lynch Llama from this evidence alone.

We can see that (3) Is exactly the same as (1'), which is expected.
(4), however, is much weaker than (2'), meaning only that "
maybe at least one of Llama/Tripod
" is scum.


Why does the strength of Onion's belief that at least one of Llama/Tripod is scum depend on the order in which we learn their alignments?

The only way this makes sense to me, is if he believes (or is pretending to believe) that Tripod is more likely to be scum than Llama, and is mistakenly carrying this bias into how much a town-flip of one of them would reveal about the other's alignment.

I seriously recommend that Onion meditate a little on how certain he is of there being at least one scum between Llama/Tripod and build his case with that assumption in mind
at all points
, or pick a different line of thought altogether.

Choosing whom to lynch based on how much we might learn from a mislynch, especially when the logic behind why we'd learn different things is faulty, is
not
beneficial to town. :neutral:
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Post Post #307 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:22 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

unvote
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Post Post #308 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:26 am

Post by petroleumjelly »

Day One, Vote Count #12


Marquis – 3 – TellTaleHeart, GuyInFreezer, Derangement
LlamaFluff – 2 – prawneater, onion
prawneater - 2 - Onion Bubs, LlamaFluff
onion – 1 – ChannelDelibird

With
11 alive
it takes
6
to lynch and
4
to lynch at deadline. Deadline is
March 5, 2015, at 6:45 AM PST
.

Not Voting – 3 – Equinox, Marquis, Untrod Tripod
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Post Post #309 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 12:13 pm

Post by Untrod Tripod »

vote Marquis


post or perish
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Post Post #310 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 3:14 pm

Post by onion »

:/ one of us is confused and i sure hope it isn't me.

A --> B aka IF A is true, then B is true.

is logically equivalent to

!(A AND !B) aka Never is A true and B false.

is logically equivalent to

!A IOR B aka A is false, B is true, or neither.

Those are the only equivalents. none of these say anything about A with a known B. you are thinking about biconditionals (<-->) which might crop up later down the line if we keep arguing this way.

A <--> B is equivalent to B <--> A.

so i'm pretty sure you are wrong. here, have a wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional
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Post Post #311 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:50 pm

Post by Equinox »

In post 296, prawneater wrote:In other news: I'm fine with killing one of the onions for sanity's sake.

We should just have a poll on which onion we think is scummier and lynch that one.

Onion Bubs is the scummier of the two imo.

That's not a good reason to lynch someone. Why Onion Bubs?

In post 304, Derangement wrote:As it is, I'm struggling with myself, trying to decide how likely scum!Onion would be to purposefully townslip like that.

If it helps, very unlikely. One or two town slips is one thing, but it's very difficult to fake a consistent pattern of earnest, genuine posting that can only come from a player who is searching for scum. I don't know how else to describe it, but onion's posts are filled with this kind of tone.

In other news:

There's a solid block of you who have brought "obvtown" to new levels. Keep on rockin'.

This game has a quirk where there's a whole bunch of players who believe that town should be transparent, and then there's the whole other bunch who don't quite believe that. Derangement said something like this earlier, but one person's "pro-town" is another's "anti-town" and yet another's "scummy"; if you looked at onion using only behavioral tells, for instance, suggesting a chain lynch, even if unidirectional, is scummy, but onion is anything but scummy. This quirk may become an issue later on. Keep this mind when that "later on" happens.

That said, I'm also in a place where I don't have too many non-town reads, which might become hilariously embarrassing if I turn out to be wrong. However, I'm not.

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Post Post #312 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 9:57 pm

Post by Derangement »

In post 310, onion wrote::/ one of us is confused and i sure hope it isn't me.

A --> B aka IF A is true, then B is true.

is logically equivalent to

!(A AND !B) aka Never is A true and B false.

is logically equivalent to

!A IOR B aka A is false, B is true, or neither.

Those are the only equivalents. none of these say anything about A with a known B. you are thinking about biconditionals (<-->) which might crop up later down the line if we keep arguing this way.

A <--> B is equivalent to B <--> A.

so i'm pretty sure you are wrong. here, have a wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Material_conditional

I am, in fact, speaking of implication (---->), and not of equivalence (<-->).

If you'd read my proof, step-by-step, you'd understand
why
I say those things are equivalent.
Here, have another two, in hopes you'll see the light this time. :P

Spoiler: Logic Theorem
  1. X ----> Y

    is equivalent to (by Material Implication)
  2. (Not X) OR Y

    which is equivalent to (by Double Negation)
  3. (Not X) OR (Not (Not Y) )

    which is equivalent to (by Commutativity)
  4. (Not (Not Y) ) OR (Not X)

    which is equivalent to (by Material Implication)
  5. (Not Y) ----> (Not X)

Spoiler: Truth Table
Basing this on the fact that (p ----> q) holds if either p is false, or q is true:

XYX ----> YNot YNot X(Not Y) ----> (Not X)
True
True
True
(because Y is true)
False
False
True
(because Not Y is false)
True
False
False
(neither)
True
False
False
(neither)
False
True
True
(both)
False
True
True
(both)
False
False
True
(because X is false)
True
True
True
(because Not X is true)
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Post Post #313 (ISO) » Sun Feb 22, 2015 10:00 pm

Post by Derangement »

In post 312, Derangement wrote:I am, in fact, speaking of implication (---->), and not of equivalence (<-->).

If you'd read my proof, step-by-step, you'd understand
why
I say those things are equivalent.

EBWOP: and by those things, I mean (X ----> Y), and (Not Y ----> Not X) are equivalent.
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Post Post #314 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 5:31 am

Post by prawneater »

In post 311, Equinox wrote:
That's not a good reason to lynch someone. Why Onion Bubs?


Cuz Onion is prob town.

I don't have strong scumreads other than LF. Most folk are townreads so I'm willing to POE lynch Onion Bubs or Marquis.
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Post Post #315 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:03 am

Post by TellTaleHeart »

In post 283, ChannelDelibird wrote:Hello, I'm here - an afternoon of board games turned into a full day unexpectedly. Full catch up tomorrow or lynch me

In post 285, Marquis wrote:hi. it's snowing really hard. i'm cold. so i'm inside all day.

i have some business to take care of rn. then after that, i'll try my best to devote some time to mafia. thanks and maybe!cya later tonight.

Stood up. Twice. :(
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Post Post #316 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:42 am

Post by Marquis »

so i was really really stupid and tried to go to the gym the first morning after an allnighter and with only starbucks in my system

i took a nap and just woke up and i'm still going back to sleep but this game takes full priority tonight kk? l8rg8rs
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Post Post #317 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 11:40 am

Post by Untrod Tripod »

I Have No Time and I Must Lurk
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Post Post #318 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:00 pm

Post by Derangement »

In post 269, Onion Bubs wrote:
In the meantime, Marquis needs to start making himself useful with some more thoughts about the game besides a town read based on a single post.
<snip>

I will move my vote to him in 24 hours unless he posts something of substance in that time period.

Add this to the list of unfulfilled promises.

Time for your randomly scheduled, friendly neighbourhood stalker report: :P
  • Post was written on
    Sat, 21/Feb/2015 14:59:39

  • Onion Bubs last logged in on
    Sun, 22/Feb/2015 20:48:46

  • The post you're currently reading (#318) was written approximately on
    Mon, 23/Feb/2015 23:00:00


Seriously, what's going on? :o
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Post Post #319 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:24 pm

Post by Onion Bubs »

In post 316, Marquis wrote:so i was really really stupid and tried to go to the gym the first morning after an allnighter and with only starbucks in my system

i took a nap and just woke up and i'm still going back to sleep but this game takes full priority tonight kk? l8rg8rs

OK, I said I was gonna give you 24 hours, and I ended up giving you nearly double that (which I wish was part of a really crafty scum hunting plan), and this is what you give us?

UNVOTE: prawneater
VOTE: Marquis

Give us some substance or get lynched.

In the meantime, how are you getting that information Derangement? Every time I try to find out when someone last came onto the forums all I get is "Last visited: - "
You may also call me Bubs. Or Onion. Or maybe OB. But don't call me anything that someone else also goes by.

What do my username and Christmas have in common? No "L". So don't call me Onion Bulbs.
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Post Post #320 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:25 pm

Post by Onion Bubs »

Oh by the way that was L-1.
You may also call me Bubs. Or Onion. Or maybe OB. But don't call me anything that someone else also goes by.

What do my username and Christmas have in common? No "L". So don't call me Onion Bulbs.
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Post Post #321 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:32 pm

Post by Marquis »

blah blah i'm reading don't lynch me blah blah
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Post Post #322 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:32 pm

Post by Derangement »

In post 319, Onion Bubs wrote:
In the meantime, how are you getting that information Derangement? Every time I try to find out when someone last came onto the forums all I get is "Last visited: - "

Exactly the same way you are. :]

The problem is that some players show nothing, like you pointed out, and you need to see what posts they make to stalk them.
Others, like you, actually show up a date and time.

I think it's a forum profile/login preferences thing, if I remember correctly.
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Post Post #323 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:54 pm

Post by Marquis »

alright i think i have things down

thoughts post in the morning and stuff hoping the headache is gone by them

plenty of time until deadline so yall can wait
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Post Post #324 (ISO) » Mon Feb 23, 2015 1:56 pm

Post by Untrod Tripod »

PUT DOWN A VOTE OR A READS LIST OR SOMETHING

GOD FUCKING DAMN

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