Micro 642: Auction Mafia TOWN WINS!

[farside22]

So yeah this game has stalled too much. This game really needs more activity. If anyone has got questions i will be willing to answer them.

What's your read on Mohis?

Townlean due to them participating in the discussion that there is.

Because scum find it impossible to participate in discussion..?

No, but scum generally doesn't have a direct incentive to provoke discussion

And I don't see this coming from a "Mr. trying to be neutral":

I've just not been able to get into the game yet—I'll get better as it progresses, I promise.

That's my favourite excuse as scum too

Don't you? I was merely pointing out your incredibly lame excuse for inactivity, an excuse which I have frequently used as scum in the past. Of all the points you have a problem with, really?

So yeah this game has stalled too much. This game really needs more activity. If anyone has got questions i will be willing to answer them.

What's your read on Mohis?

Townlean due to them participating in the discussion that there is.

Because scum find it impossible to participate in discussion..?

No, but scum generally doesn't have a direct incentive to provoke discussion

You do realise how incredibly wrong this viewpoint is? Like, looking like they're town and making other people look like scum is literally how scum play, and you know how you do that? Provoking discussion! Because people who promote discussion tend to get labelled as town, but provoking and leading discussion allows you to paint other players in the light you want. Scum's incentive for promoting discussion is that it's their main path to victory!

Okay sorry if i didn't elaborate in my post. What i meant by "direct incentive" was that discussion isn't something scum wants, but rather trying to look like they are making it. Now looking back my read on Mohis might not be that decent, but point remains that town generally does try to participate more.

This is just general chit chat.
He's doing exactly what he says scum do.
Then when asked about reads he's given 2 reads, one he's voting for.
True story

[Davsto]

3 days until deadline, I'm not getting a DarkLight lynch it seems, so I'll go for my next best option.

VOTE: MapWolf

Still willing to keep the interrogation pressure on DL, but voting for another likely scum who is more likely to get lynched today takes preference.

OH SHIT this was L-1, I missed farside's vote

[DarkLightA]

UNVOTE:

[DarkLightA]

(...)

Wow actually, I admit I haven't read the games that Charloux had posted, and some of them (like 1698) seem to be the complete contrary to what Charloux has described (it was a cop guilty claim, not an L-1 claim).

Nevertheless, I still think that Charloux was acting quite scummily in all those games, which is what I'll call lynchbait. It seems that we are not on the same terms here regarding what us lynchbait. What do you consider lynchbait?

Finally, are all the parts before what you bolded also meant to be scumpoints against Charloux?

I interpret lynchbait in this context as a player who is easy to lead a wagon against. I do see the point about scum games not being that relevant because it tends to be town leading the wagons, but it seems that McMenno is quite apt at being lynched regardless of orientation.

The one sentence I bolded is just of particular importance, and is indeed part of a scumpoint. He's asked for lynchbait cases, and just ends up providing a list of all(?) his town games instead.

[DarkLightA]

Unvote because I don't like being on a wagon with all the scummy players. Have to rethink.

[DarkLightA]

Also, why does lane seems more interested in defending DarkLight than DarkLight does? Lane actually argued my points in a genuine manner (as strongly as I disagree with him), whereas DarkLight threw out an incredibly cheap "all your reads are bullshit lol" with no justification except for a couple of very weak counterpoints.

Lane has done a fabulous job of answering to your points.

The problem I have with your arguments is that you seem uninterested in what I have to say—you don't seem like you're looking to be disproven, you're just interested in finding more ways to point out how scummy I am. Lane's defense of me affirms this to me, as (practically) all of his answers have been spot on, suggesting that to a rational player what I'm saying is clear.

[Davsto]

Unvote because I don't like being on a wagon with all the scummy players. Have to rethink.

Uh... what? "All the scummy players"?

The wagon currently consists of me, McMenno, farside.

In your last readslist you actually had me as "null" (although I'd be lying if I said that I didn't get the air that you've started scumreading me since).

McMenno, you also had as null, and your only comment towards him since that is an (admittedly negative-sounding) question.

Farside you had as weak town.

So you're saying you're reconsidering a wagon on someone you have considered from pretty much the start of the game to be scum, because the rest of the wagon is a player you have recently decided is scum, a player you have as null, and a player you have as town are all voting on it?

Not to mention that the other two wagons that are options this late (that is to say actually have players on them) are mohis and mcmenno, which (a) you have stated a weak townlean and nullread on respectively, and (b) have Map Wolf and Charloux on them respectively, both players you have shown much more obvious signs of scumreading than I.

Basically, what I'm saying with, this sentence makes

no sense

, unless by "all the scummy players" you mean "one player I scumread quite a bit as of recently, but neither of the two players I have strongly scumread the longest".

[Davsto]

Also, why does lane seems more interested in defending DarkLight than DarkLight does? Lane actually argued my points in a genuine manner (as strongly as I disagree with him), whereas DarkLight threw out an incredibly cheap "all your reads are bullshit lol" with no justification except for a couple of very weak counterpoints.

Lane has done a fabulous job of answering to your points.

The problem I have with your arguments is that you seem uninterested in what I have to say—you don't seem like you're looking to be disproven, you're just interested in finding more ways to point out how scummy I am. Lane's defense of me affirms this to me, as (practically) all of his answers have been spot on, suggesting that to a rational player what I'm saying is clear.

I think you're scum. I need to convince others you're scum. Of course I'm going to find reasons and point them out as to why you're scum. I open discussion with you and you just go "all your points are bullshit".

Of course I'm not "looking to be disproven". Someone presents counterpoints - I argue against them because I disagree with the counterpoints themselves. What, am I going to go "well you provided counterpoints I must be wrong let's give up on this scumread I have plenty of reasons for"?

Also, I assume I don't have to point out the hilarious buddying of lane here. Seriously, whew.

[DarkLightA]

jesus fucking christ

[Davsto]

It's hardly my fault you say all the scummy stuff.

[DarkLightA]

VOTE: Davsto

You appear to be coming at this questioning from a standpoint of me being town.

Of course I'm not "looking to be disproven". Someone presents counterpoints - I argue against them because I disagree with the counterpoints themselves. What, am I going to go "well you provided counterpoints I must be wrong let's give up on this scumread I have plenty of reasons for"?

This is not scumhunting, this is scumpainting. And this is exactly what you've been doing all along. Town players don't do this. Scum players do this because they need to fabricate a case where there is no case. Town players need to *find* a case—there are mafia players and a town player's job is to identify them correctly. If a counterpoint is provided, it should be evaluated honestly. It shouldn't be refuted regardless of what it contains. That is what a person who is fabricating a case would do.

Funnily enough, the post before this is a great example of this in action:

Unvote because I don't like being on a wagon with all the scummy players. Have to rethink.

Uh... what? "All the scummy players"?

The wagon currently consists of me, McMenno, farside.

In your last readslist you actually had me as "null" (although I'd be lying if I said that I didn't get the air that you've started scumreading me since).

McMenno, you also had as null, and your only comment towards him since that is an (admittedly negative-sounding) question.

Farside you had as weak town.

So you're saying you're reconsidering a wagon on someone you have considered from pretty much the start of the game to be scum, because the rest of the wagon is a player you have recently decided is scum, a player you have as null, and a player you have as town are all voting on it?

(...)

Basically, what I'm saying with, this sentence makes

no sense

, unless by "all the scummy players" you mean "one player I scumread quite a bit as of recently, but neither of the two players I have strongly scumread the longest".

He's not actually looking at this from an honest standpoint. He's doing it in a way that paints me in the worst light possible.

Firstly, he's taking my reads from a post that was half of the game ago as the answers to my scumreads. That's bad enough, but this is worse:

Farside you had as weak town.

Farside I had as weak town... See this is fair enough, I did list farside as weak town. However,

he previously questioned me about this

and got the following as a response:

Spoiler: Re: farside

farside22: Lots of content, but I'm having a hard time picking out too much information. Regardless, weak town.

Doing this one out of order because I saw him disagree with mohis' read on farside and realised I didn't remember DL's read on farside being town and this is why, because literally the entire description hints at scumlean and then he goes "SURPRISE WEAK TOWN GOTCHA"

This one's well pointed out though, and you are actually more correct than I think you realize.

This is tied back to the whole 2-points thing (that tied back to you) that was explained well by lane on the previous page. After my read-through I had farside as a scumread with a large focus on that point. As I didn't want to influence the response I tried to provide a "safe haven". I'm satisfied by the response so it's not as bad as I thought, but I'd put her on a null-weak scum

"I'd put her on a null-weak scum"
Why does he not mention this? Because he isn't interested in actual honest scumhunting—he wants to paint me in the worst light possible.

[Davsto]

This is not scumhunting, this is scumpainting.

No it's not? I would happily accept a counterpoint that suggests you're town. It's just that, from my view,

no-one has provided one

. I still feel my reasons for scumreading you are valid, and disagree with the counterpoints lane has laid out as I feel they do not invalidate the points I have made. That's perfectly town, thank you very much. Sure, maybe one or two points have issues that I have reconsidered, but one of my many issues with you being wrong doesn't change the fact that all the others exist. From my view, I have an overwhelming amount of analysis that points to you being scum, and very little suggesting you are town.

And this is exactly what you've been doing all along. Town players don't do this. Scum players do this because they need to fabricate a case where there is no case. Town players need to *find* a case—there are mafia players and a town player's job is to identify them correctly. If a counterpoint is provided, it should be evaluated honestly. It shouldn't be refuted regardless of what it contains. That is what a person who is fabricating a case would do.

I haven't just "refuted regardless of what it contains". I have, in fact, laid out a reason for refuting virtually every single counterpoint lane made because I disagree with them. There was literally a huge fucking post with me doing it. Was that not a fair enough evaluation for you? Do you want me to agree with some of his points even if I don't just to make it look fairer?

He's not actually looking at this from an honest standpoint. He's doing it in a way that paints me in the worst light possible.

Firstly, he's taking my reads from a post that was half of the game ago as the answers to my scumreads.

That's because it is by far your most substantial post in the game (and the most recent post that states any clear reads other than farside and I). Of course I'm going to go to that post.

That's bad enough, but this is worse:

Farside you had as weak town.

Farside I had as weak town... See this is fair enough, I did list farside as weak town. However,

he previously questioned me about this

and got the following as a response:

Spoiler: Re: farside

farside22: Lots of content, but I'm having a hard time picking out too much information. Regardless, weak town.

Doing this one out of order because I saw him disagree with mohis' read on farside and realised I didn't remember DL's read on farside being town and this is why, because literally the entire description hints at scumlean and then he goes "SURPRISE WEAK TOWN GOTCHA"

This one's well pointed out though, and you are actually more correct than I think you realize.

This is tied back to the whole 2-points thing (that tied back to you) that was explained well by lane on the previous page. After my read-through I had farside as a scumread with a large focus on that point. As I didn't want to influence the response I tried to provide a "safe haven". I'm satisfied by the response so it's not as bad as I thought, but I'd put her on a null-weak scum

"I'd put her on a null-weak scum"
Why does he not mention this? Because he isn't interested in actual honest scumhunting—he wants to paint me in the worst light possible.

Actually, I didn't mention that because I realise you'd said that. You'd made such a song and dance about that question and how it made farside town that it stuck in my head and I didn't really take in you'd said she was "null-weak scum"

Of course, this still doesn't actually really discount the point I made. You said that you moved off the MapWolf wagon because "all of your scumreads" were on there, despite the obvious fact that neither Charloux nor Map Wolf (both much stronger scumreads than farside from what I can tell of your ISO, and probably around equal to me) were on there.

Also, the vote where you unvoted MapWolf was an

incredibly

obvious set-up. You were obviously doing that, knowing I'd point out something scummy about your scummy unvote, giving you a perfect excuse to lay your vote on me. I could see it coming from a mile away.

[lane0168]

Unvote because I don't like being on a wagon with all the scummy players. Have to rethink.

Uh... what? "All the scummy players"?

The wagon currently consists of me, McMenno, farside.

In your last readslist you actually had me as "null" (although I'd be lying if I said that I didn't get the air that you've started scumreading me since).

McMenno, you also had as null, and your only comment towards him since that is an (admittedly negative-sounding) question.

Farside you had as weak town.

So you're saying you're reconsidering a wagon on someone you have considered from pretty much the start of the game to be scum, because the rest of the wagon is a player you have recently decided is scum, a player you have as null, and a player you have as town are all voting on it?

Not to mention that the other two wagons that are options this late (that is to say actually have players on them) are mohis and mcmenno, which (a) you have stated a weak townlean and nullread on respectively, and (b) have Map Wolf and Charloux on them respectively, both players you have shown much more obvious signs of scumreading than I.

Basically, what I'm saying with, this sentence makes

no sense

, unless by "all the scummy players" you mean "one player I scumread quite a bit as of recently, but neither of the two players I have strongly scumread the longest".

See, now this point I agree with

[lane0168]

Davsto, you asked if anyone else thought your reads were bs. I answered because I thought they were, and now you're going to call me out for buddying? Cause I answered a question you asked? That's bull shit too.

[Davsto]

Huh? No, I don't think you're buddying

Where did you get that from?

[Davsto]

It was DarkLight that was buddying you, is what I was saying in 307, realised it was a tad ambiguous

[lane0168]

Oh, well in that case. Nvmd.

But you're still biased.

[Lucky2u]

Vote Count 1.5

My Other Head Is Scum (L-2)

- Map Wolf, BulletNLynchproof, lane0168

Map Wolf (L-2)

- McMenno, farside22, Davsto
Charloux -
McMenno

(L-3)

- My Other Head Is Scum, Charloux
Davsto

(L-4)

- DarkLightA
lane0168 -
BulletNLynchproof -
farside22 -
DarkLightA -

Not Voting (0)-

Deadline - (expired on 2016-09-13 12:00:00)

[DarkLightA]

Actually, I didn't mention that because I realise you'd said that. You'd made such a song and dance about that question and how it made farside town that it stuck in my head and I didn't really take in you'd said she was "null-weak scum"

Huh? You made a point, and I answered it in a 3 lines. Is that the "song and dance about that question" that you're talking about?

Of course, this still doesn't actually really discount the point I made. You said that you moved off the MapWolf wagon because "all of your scumreads" were on there, despite the obvious fact that neither Charloux nor Map Wolf (both much stronger scumreads than farside from what I can tell of your ISO, and probably around equal to me) were on there.

You're seriously gonna argue that I should have taken into account Map Wolf not being on his own wagon? Yes, I have had Map Wolf as a scumread, but that doesn't prevent me from questioning my read of him when the wagon that's alongside me doesn't represent a townish cross-section of the players to me. Charloux is a valid point, but is far from the only player I consider scummy.

Also, the vote where you unvoted MapWolf was an incredibly obvious set-up. You were obviously doing that, knowing I'd point out something scummy about your scummy unvote, giving you a perfect excuse to lay your vote on me. I could see it coming from a mile away.

What do you mean by this?

[Davsto]

Oh, well in that case. Nvmd.

But you're still biased.

Is this talking about me saying that DarkLight is buddying you? Because when he says stuff like

Lane has done a fabulous job

and

(practically) all of [lane's] answers have been spot on

I find it difficult to believe that anyone would disagree that is buddying

Actually, I didn't mention that because I realise you'd said that. You'd made such a song and dance about that question and how it made farside town that it stuck in my head and I didn't really take in you'd said she was "null-weak scum"

Huh? You made a point, and I answered it in a 3 lines. Is that the "song and dance about that question" that you're talking about?

I mean over the whole question issue. Several people prodded you about it being a useless question and you were like "it's not useless it got me this motivation and view about farside and whatever" (paraphrasing), you made quite a big deal justifying it and about how it allowed you to townlean a bit on farside.

Of course, this still doesn't actually really discount the point I made. You said that you moved off the MapWolf wagon because "all of your scumreads" were on there, despite the obvious fact that neither Charloux nor Map Wolf (both much stronger scumreads than farside from what I can tell of your ISO, and probably around equal to me) were on there.

You're seriously gonna argue that I should have taken into account Map Wolf not being on his own wagon?

That's... a misrepresentation of my point and then some. Talk about twisting my point. You said "all the scummy players", not all the players you saw as scummy were on there, as both MapWolf and Charloux (who, at the time, you clearly scumread more than farside and I) weren't on the wagon.

Yes, I have had Map Wolf as a scumread, but that doesn't prevent me from questioning my read of him when the wagon that's alongside me doesn't represent a townish cross-section of the players to me.

But I have been stating a scumread on MapWolf the virtually the entire game so far, and farside hasn't exactly been praising him as town either - why do the people scumreading him only become a problem when they actually placed a vote?

Charloux is a valid point, but is far from the only player I consider scummy.

Again, you said "all the scummy players", which naturally includes Charloux.

Also, the vote where you unvoted MapWolf was an incredibly obvious set-up. You were obviously doing that, knowing I'd point out something scummy about your scummy unvote, giving you a perfect excuse to lay your vote on me. I could see it coming from a mile away.

What do you mean by this?

Uhh... exactly what it says?

[DarkLightA]

Davsto, why do you think I, as scum, am buddying Lane? And why does this make me more likely to be scum?

[DarkLightA]

I don't want to get into a quote war so I'll state exactly what I meant with my unvote reasoning:
I'm on a wagon against a player I think is scum. Along with me on the wagon are only players who I do not townread. This makes me question my read of Map Wolf, as it suggests that, if my reads are correct, I am following the way scum want to push the game.

Also, the vote where you unvoted MapWolf was an incredibly obvious set-up. You were obviously doing that, knowing I'd point out something scummy about your scummy unvote, giving you a perfect excuse to lay your vote on me. I could see it coming from a mile away.

What do you mean by this?

Uhh... exactly what it says?

[/quote]
I misunderstood what you were saying the first time I read this.
Why do you think I'd do this as scum?

[Davsto]

Davsto, why do you think I, as scum, am buddying Lane? And why does this make me more likely to be scum?

He townreads you and defends you. You basically treat him like a hero for this. This means you don't antagonise him and give him praise for doing it - increasing the chance that he will keep doing it. Additionally, it creates an associative between the two of you - affecting the way town read either of you if either of you flip.

I don't want to get into a quote war so I'll state exactly what I meant with my unvote reasoning:
I'm on a wagon against a player I think is scum. Along with me on the wagon are only players who I do not townread. This makes me question my read of Map Wolf, as it suggests that, if my reads are correct, I am following the way scum want to push the game.

See, this is a reasonable explanation. Of course, this doesn't nullify your original comment which is still scummy.

I misunderstood what you were saying the first time I read this.
Why do you think I'd do this as scum?

You wanted to make your vote on me look better. By waiting for me to make a significant post on you, it gave you an opportunity to provide a stronger reasoning for the vote, a specific point for you to go "yeah this guy's scum" and then jump on.

Regardless, I propose a truce between us for the remainder of this day phase - let's face it, neither of us are going to get the other lynched today, and we have other scumreads which we are much more likely to get lynched. With only three days left in this phase, this back-and-forth is doing little else than getting in the way of any meaningful progress on the main viable wagons (MOHIS/McMenno/MapWolf) and increasing the risk of a panic lynch.

[DarkLightA]

Davsto, why do you think I, as scum, am buddying Lane? And why does this make me more likely to be scum?

He townreads you and defends you. You basically treat him like a hero for this. This means you don't antagonise him and give him praise for doing it - increasing the chance that he will keep doing it. Additionally, it creates an associative between the two of you - affecting the way town read either of you if either of you flip.

See, this is a problem I have with a lot of your scumpoints against me. You're pointing out go-to scumtells without even thinking about how they apply to the game. That response above ^ is contentless. And a lot of your other points also seem, to me, to lack the reasoning gap between "seeming scummy" and "actually scummy"

I'm happy with my vote for now.

[Davsto]

Whatever, keep your frankly useless vote. I'm not gonna bother for today.