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[implosion]

How is this at all different than your defense of serg above? Bonus points: You use a similar line of reasoning in defense of serg way back in 83 as well. Its funny how this argument seems to consistently apply to taco but but if wavemode uses it to defend wossi its a 'basic too scummy to be scum' argument.

Because I'm being specific, and because their play has been very different. wave's criticism of the Wossi wagon was that "All the nonsense" he'd been accused of was the kind of stuff scum try to avoid. It's very unspecific, and I've since clarified the reasons that I think Wossi is scum and I don't think that argument applies accurately to them because I don't think he's doing them in a way that scum are unlikely to do. Whereas I think serg is, because he's done different things in a different way at different times and with different consequent actions (i.e. the way he interacted with people that were questioning the miller claim).

Yes, it's all wifom, but wifom isn't this inscrutable, undecidable thing. You can make a guess at which direction is more likely. I don't think Wossi's play of stating a lynch all liars position, for instance, is something scum are especially likely to actively avoid. I do think that serg's miller claim and l-1 vote are things scum will be more likely to actively avoid. It is possible, as you say, that serg is scum who doesn't really care that much about consequences, but I don't think his miller claim is the kind of thing that specifically comes from uninvested scum. If that miller claim comes from scum I think that it's because, like someone mentioned, he might have been trying to gauge the town's reactions to it and possibly keep it.

[implosion]

Two's and human's play in the past couple of pages both feel very blah.

Okay. Is there a scum day chat yes or no? Someone should answer this with subtlety.

This honestly just straight looks like a faked townslip. I've gotten extremely solid townreads off of the "do scum have day chat" townslip before but this just doesn't look genuine. Unless he was like trying to fish for scum with this? Which is weird but not scummy I guess.

I agree with Wicked that I can see where Two is coming from (I also thought human was being serious at first, and was still offput by the fact that he only said he was partly joking even after he said it). But Two's reasoning is also... very one-dimensional. Similar in a way to a lynch all liars argument he's just giving the scum interpretation of what human did as though it's obvious that it makes more sense than the town interpretation.

Actually now that I look at human's posting on page 12 again I want to call him town. The flip on wicked and the flip on Two both look moderately genuine.

[Nexus]

Votecount 1.5:

Wossi (5)

- implosion, Flubbernugget, skitter30, Sergtacos, Lalendra

Flubbernugget (2)

- Wossi, Chip Butty

Lalendra (2)

- Wickedestjr, Sephiroth

Wickedestjr(1)

- wavemode

Not Voting (3)

- TwoInAMillion, humaneatingmonkey, iDanyboy

With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch. Deadline is at 3pm GMT on Sunday 26th November 2017 ((expired on 2017-11-26 15:00:00))

[implosion]

I think I can read lalendra's vote either way. In a sense it's similar to serg's in that I'm not sure scum makes that move but I can imagine it coming from either alignment from someone who's somewhat disconnected from the game state as she's said she is. Her read progression on Flubber is really weird. She says she can't see where his motivation lies, but implies that she's townreading him for the sole reason of being too scummy to be scummy despite not understanding his motivations, then says that she wants to look at the Flubber wagon for scum (which to me implies at least a moderately strong townread) yet at the end of the post she also mentions she doesn't like Flubber's last post. Not sure what to make of that.

[implosion]

I dont think there was a significant shift in rhetoric between 34 and 37, since it all falls under the umbrella of lynch all liars which is not a novel belief

See, I feel like it's exactly that. A shift in rhetoric, as in, a shift in the way he's arguing rather than the actual meaning of the content. I think he shifts from saying "he says he's scum, he must be scum, lynch" to "if he's town, he's lying and should be lynched" because he sees it as the more convenient rhetorical tact to take, and not because he actually has the genuine underlying thought that town who is lying should be lynched. Psychologically it's sort of the natural thing to argue when the original point is challenged - I think town who makes post 34 and then sees post 36 would stop and take a step back and think rather than doubling down and voting. It just reads to me as scum who sees "ooh, free mislynch" and almost is acting entitled to the mislynch like it's just the obvious thing that should happen next.

Idk, I might be reading too much into this but I still have yet to see any reason to call him town and my first resort is usually to hunt by PoE and there's like nothing in any of his posts that makes me want to unvote him. Him being afk until tomorrow isn't scummy per se but people are acting like the Wossi wagon ought to be a thing of the past despite the fact that we haven't even seen him acknowledge it, let alone react to it, let alone analyze it.

[skitter30]

I think this line of argument winds up being fairly wifom but for the record I don't think serg-scum was too worried about the consequences.

I was scum with Serg in 1946. He's a lot more self-aware than he might appear to be, and was actually pretty cognizant about the reactions his actions might instigate; he'd talk to his partners a lot and run things by us to make sure he didn't look scummy. (ie 'should I lolhammer?'). If anything, I think that town!taco is less worried about how he looks to others. He also, like, tried to look more invested, even as he played up the stoner dude persona. Like he tried to look like he was contributing and scumhunting, but played up being high so that people wouldn't take what he was saying *that* seriously.

With Wossi to me it seems the wagon is built on him holding a position that happens to be unpopular (lynch all liars) with this group of players more than anything particularly scummy that they've done. I dont think there was a significant shift in rhetoric between 34 and 37, since it all falls under the umbrella of lynch all liars which is not a novel belief. Its an older playstyle sir, but it checks out. 41 just seems like he's making a joke about his random vote and its been read into like crazy. This isn't page 2 anymore. I mean I could respond to each specific post thats called out if people want but suffice it to say I just don't see what others seem to see in Wossi.

I think he's done several sketchy things, including his push on Flubber which imo was kinda delayed until after you pushed it since it looks like he specifically waited to see how people would react if it got pushed. His response to me pointing this was was to attribute the delay to being excited for finding scum so early, but I don't think I'd said anything AI by that point. He's also admitted to making 'meaningless accusations', and I don't understand the town motivation in that.

I'm not sure why you keep on dismissing the wossi wagon when there have been several legitimate points raised against him that he's failed to respond to. I don't think we should move past it just because it's 10 pages later when he's been absent from the thread and hasn't really reacted to it yet.

[Chip Butty]

Just did a complete reread of the game. Scummest so far is wave's 'meta' tr of wossi.

VOTE: wave

This doesn't implicate wossi though, will wait until his return to assess.

Others looking scummy:

Taco for the miller thing. I can see why town might fakeclaim but not why they would back off. Can't quite see why scum would unless cold feet? Need him to say more...

HEM. In our last game i strong townread him for a while before becoming paranoid and switching to scumread. I'm getting a scum vibe here too but not sure why yet.

Dany, skitter, wicked can be townish for now. Slight tl for Lalendra.

[Chip Butty]

Implosion and Sephi also towner flubber null TIAM scumlean

[wavemode]

VOTE: Lalendra

[wavemode]

Just did a complete reread of the game. Scummest so far is wave's 'meta' tr of wossi.

Just to be clear, you think I'm lying? Or you think meta is not a sufficient reason to townread someone

[Lalendra]

I don't think I threw suspicion on you, in fact I think I was defending you when others were suspecting you because of what you posted, but that's fine.

Blatant lie.

Really not liking Flub's last post, it's really aggressive on the one hand while also admitting to not really giving a shit about the game on the other. If you're town imma need you to do better than that.

That was not casting suspicion on you, it was saying "I think you're town and I don't like town!Flub not paying attention to the game, please do better." I still think you're town.

Like if someone comes in and just says "prodge, catching up" or doesn't post at all, that's one thing. But to come in, acknowledge that there is a wagon forming on you, and not say anything in your own defense - but write up a post which includes other game info - just struck me as weird. I'm finding it odd that you are tunneling on this so hard.

He did make a defense just not a good one, he said it was a reaction test. I'm struggling to see the distinction between Not posting =/= not posting anything worthwhile informational. I would agree with you if he was doing it often but in a one off case where he did try to give some information so it makes just as much sense that his too busy and only had enough time for that one post.
I still don't understand your logic in putting Wossi to L-1 which could lead to a lynch while you still wanted to analyze Flubbers wagon which was the main problem I had with your post.

It is possible to think that Wossi is scum prior to analyzing the votes on another wagon. I'm not sure why that's so difficult to understand. In my mind they are two separate issues.

I'm more interested in why you're having a problem with 190 and not 117, when he was also at L-2, and was engaging with the thread, but didn't feel the need to post any sort of reasonable defense or rebuttal. In 190, he said he was busy irl, which is why he wasn't posting. In 117, he was similarly in a place where a lot of people were open to wagoning him, was active in the thead, but deliberately ignored most of the points raised against him.

You're right, I did take 117 into account but I didn't explicitly mention it when stating my reasons. It was more like 190 kind of pushed the needle further into the red and that solidified my read.

EBWOP: That is a quote from a thread where I posted what I'm supposed to post here.

Here's another post with the same content.

Oh my god, Flubb is town
wavemode is probably town
sephiroth is probably town
skitter is probably town
2inaMil could be town
iDanyBoy could also be town
haven't made up my mind yet about wossi
Serg is still the annoying fucktwat back in Newbie 1804
implosion could be scum
chip butty could also be scum
Wicked is probably scum

gut reads based on ISO readings i just want to be back on the game

VOTE: Wicked

Just ignore me, I see how it is.

Also can you explain why you are town reading Flubber? It doesn't make sense considering the rest of your comments about him.

I think I made my reasons clear. My thought process was as follows: "I don't like that joke he just made. Oh, ew, I don't like this one either. But why would that come from scum? It's too scummy to be from scum. And I don't see what he would stand to gain from it if he was scum. He's got to be town, it's the only thing that makes sense."

[skitter30]

Just did a complete reread of the game. Scummest so far is wave's 'meta' tr of wossi.

Just to be clear, you think I'm lying? Or you think meta is not a sufficient reason to townread someone

I think it's insufficient when your major argument for why Wossi might be town is that you meta townread him for a game you can't discuss. You haven't actually pointed to anything in this game for why he's town; at best you've kinda handwaved away some of the arguments against him.

[wavemode]

I thought you were done going round in circles

[Sephiroth]

I think this line of argument winds up being fairly wifom but for the record I don't think serg-scum was too worried about the consequences.

I was scum with Serg in 1946. He's a lot more self-aware than he might appear to be, and was actually pretty cognizant about the reactions his actions might instigate; he'd talk to his partners a lot and run things by us to make sure he didn't look scummy. (ie 'should I lolhammer?'). If anything, I think that town!taco is less worried about how he looks to others. He also, like, tried to look more invested, even as he played up the stoner dude persona. Like he tried to look like he was contributing and scumhunting, but played up being high so that people wouldn't take what he was saying *that* seriously.

I'll give that game a once over and see if I agree with your take. I'm content to leave my vote on lalendra and wait on serg for the timebeing.

With Wossi to me it seems the wagon is built on him holding a position that happens to be unpopular (lynch all liars) with this group of players more than anything particularly scummy that they've done. I dont think there was a significant shift in rhetoric between 34 and 37, since it all falls under the umbrella of lynch all liars which is not a novel belief. Its an older playstyle sir, but it checks out. 41 just seems like he's making a joke about his random vote and its been read into like crazy. This isn't page 2 anymore. I mean I could respond to each specific post thats called out if people want but suffice it to say I just don't see what others seem to see in Wossi.

I think he's done several sketchy things, including his push on Flubber which imo was kinda delayed until after you pushed it since it looks like he specifically waited to see how people would react if it got pushed. His response to me pointing this was was to attribute the delay to being excited for finding scum so early, but I don't think I'd said anything AI by that point. He's also admitted to making 'meaningless accusations', and I don't understand the town motivation in that.

I mean I'm not trying to be obstinate here but I just don't see why any player would be that caught up in whether something seemed scummy to push near the top of page 2. Like I completely understand what you're saying and it would be a bigger deal to me if Wossi pulled that move in relation to a serious, potentially lynching wagon. But how is this move not explained by them just wanting to push someone in the early game, and joining in on a potential wagon? Early wagons are good. Joining one is a null tell in my book. I mean hell even if this happened page 4 or 5 I might see your point but hell man no scum is sitting there thinking they will get a mislynch from putting the second vote on someone on page 2.

I think that your interpretation of the meaningless accusations thing is just flat wrong. Again, I point to the fact that it was early PAGE TWO. Accusations on page 2 are almost by definition meaningless and I don't understand why admitting that he was just poking things for fun on page two is possibly a scum tell. Its fine that you don't see town motivation but there's no scum motivation either. I would also 100% say that my accusations within the first two pages were meaningless.

I'm not sure why you keep on dismissing the wossi wagon when there have been several legitimate points raised against him that he's failed to respond to. I don't think we should move past it just because it's 10 pages later when he's been absent from the thread and hasn't really reacted to it yet.

I really don't see any of the points as legitimate. I see them as pointing at normal page 2 posts and painting an elaborate backstory that suggests their scum. It doesn't make sense to me. The argument is that he hesitated than followed someone else onto a wagon on PAGE 2. Then that he referred to accusations he made

on page 2

as meaningless accusations, when thats exactly what accusations are on page 2. Since then he's lurked, which I don't like, but a lurker does not a scum make. And given I don't really buy the core of the arguments against him I'm less worried about him failing to answer those accusations. Its almost laughable that he's gotten to L-1 TWICE based on such a weak set of points.

---

And I think that given all that its a lot more sketch that people are willing to drop L-1 votes and demand claims. Its like you're living in RVS and refuse to accept that scummy players and scummy actions are happening RIGHT NOW.

[Wossi]

IOkay, starting my read through. Thanks for bearing with me while I was slow. It’s so easy to slip behind, so hard to catch up.
Right away we get Flubbernugget’s first post, 9. After a long chain of people claiming town (Wavemode, me, Danyboy, Wicked, & Humaneatingmonkey), Flubber decides to go against the grain. I understand how this could just be an attempt to be funny or be “different”, but I still don’t like it. I def don’t consider this a gambit.

Then Skitter was the first person to put a second vote on somebody, and I pointed it out. I expected my observation would just be passed over, maybe more interesting after town had more information, but Skitter’s reaction caught me off guard. In post 14 she asks “And?” and then, with no response from me, in post 27 she again presses the issue. I just found that to be way too much reaction for a pretty mundane statement. At this point I was already having trouble participating, so I kept making naked posts calling Skitter scum to see if this behavior would continue.

Other than that, the only interesting thing that happened in RVS was TwoInAMillion’s reading comprehension issues, which I believe are NAI

I don’t like Sergtacos miller claim, especially with the L-1 vote he put on me with zero reasoning. If you really are miller, why would you make blatantly scummy actions, the kind of actions people would say are too scummy even for scum to make.

[Wossi]

Because I don't want to see town lynched?

We are a day into the game, there's a lot more left to happen day 1. Why the rush?

Lets be clear here. A wagon is not the same as a lynch. I am not in a rush to lynch. I AM in a rush to start a substantial wagon because it takes us out of the random stage and into the actual game. The longer we're in RVS the longer people can lurk and make excuses like "I have nothing to work with!" to be completely non-committal.

Are you saying you don't want us to wagon anyone? Not sure how its pro-town to just not pressure anyone out of fear of lynching. It takes 7 to lynch, it only takes like 3-4 to constitute a wagon.

I like this post, and I share this logic on wagons.

I don't like TwoInAMillion's answer that he doesn't want to pursue bad wagons. There's so much information that can be revealed even by poorly reasoned wagons

[Wossi]

Also if you have such a problem with that post, and such strong feelings about it, why the delayed reaction? Why didn't you push it immediately after he said it, instead of waiting for someone else to push it and hopping onto that push?

shhh wait until he posts again

also I was still excited by the fact that I just happened to random vote for scum

OK, he posted, and you've since posted, so can you answer this?

And can you explain what you mean by the fact that you apparently were scumreading me in 13?

Because I thought either or both of you might be scum and I didn't want to say "Oh, I'm voting to apply pressure and get reactions!" because that kind of defeats the point.

[TwoInAMillion]

Because I don't want to see town lynched?

We are a day into the game, there's a lot more left to happen day 1. Why the rush?

Lets be clear here. A wagon is not the same as a lynch. I am not in a rush to lynch. I AM in a rush to start a substantial wagon because it takes us out of the random stage and into the actual game. The longer we're in RVS the longer people can lurk and make excuses like "I have nothing to work with!" to be completely non-committal.

Are you saying you don't want us to wagon anyone? Not sure how its pro-town to just not pressure anyone out of fear of lynching. It takes 7 to lynch, it only takes like 3-4 to constitute a wagon.

I like this post, and I share this logic on wagons.

I don't like TwoInAMillion's answer that he doesn't want to pursue bad wagons. There's so much information that can be revealed even by poorly reasoned wagons

I don't agree with the quanity over quality philosophy.

[Wossi]

Because I don't want to see town lynched?

We are a day into the game, there's a lot more left to happen day 1. Why the rush?

Lets be clear here. A wagon is not the same as a lynch. I am not in a rush to lynch. I AM in a rush to start a substantial wagon because it takes us out of the random stage and into the actual game. The longer we're in RVS the longer people can lurk and make excuses like "I have nothing to work with!" to be completely non-committal.

Are you saying you don't want us to wagon anyone? Not sure how its pro-town to just not pressure anyone out of fear of lynching. It takes 7 to lynch, it only takes like 3-4 to constitute a wagon.

I like this post, and I share this logic on wagons.

I don't like TwoInAMillion's answer that he doesn't want to pursue bad wagons. There's so much information that can be revealed even by poorly reasoned wagons

I don't agree with the quanity over quality philosophy.

They're not mutually exclusive

[Wossi]

It's possible I misunderstood, but even so, this is a game of mafia, and to beleive what someone says at face value during the RVS is a little ludicrous.

So why? Why would someone claim scum? Even in RVS, what might someone be thinking when they claim that?

Town should never lie

VOTE: Flubbernugget

Scum claiming scum is scum and should be lynched
Town claiming scum is lying and should be lynched

This is a drastically overly literal interpretation. Do you not understand that flubber was being very obviously sarcastic? Is there any actual, material problem with town lying in an explicitly sarcastic way, other than it being lying and you not liking people lying?

also I was still excited by the fact that I just happened to random vote for scum

I also somewhat dislike this line.

I'm trying to put my finger on exactly why. It just feels manufactured. I think this is the kind of line that comes more often from scum who are trying to look like they're thinking about the game than from town.

Now that I'm going through and answering questions and defending myself, aka actually being available to play with a full focus, I don't like this post.

How do you defend against this? By saying, no, I'm not actually scum trying to look like I'm thinking about the game? This kind of sneaky baseless stuff is scummy because it makes it look like you're scum hunting (painting you as town) while making accusations against me (painting me as scum) without anything of substance actually happening

[TwoInAMillion]

Because I don't want to see town lynched?

We are a day into the game, there's a lot more left to happen day 1. Why the rush?

Lets be clear here. A wagon is not the same as a lynch. I am not in a rush to lynch. I AM in a rush to start a substantial wagon because it takes us out of the random stage and into the actual game. The longer we're in RVS the longer people can lurk and make excuses like "I have nothing to work with!" to be completely non-committal.

Are you saying you don't want us to wagon anyone? Not sure how its pro-town to just not pressure anyone out of fear of lynching. It takes 7 to lynch, it only takes like 3-4 to constitute a wagon.

I like this post, and I share this logic on wagons.

I don't like TwoInAMillion's answer that he doesn't want to pursue bad wagons. There's so much information that can be revealed even by poorly reasoned wagons

I don't agree with the quanity over quality philosophy.

They're not mutually exclusive

You literally just said any wagon is a good wagon.

[Wossi]

Miller claims are usually true unless there is a counter. A lot of risk involved in a scum Miller claim.

On the other hand, you probably don't want a claimed Miller in lylo unless it's someone you trust as a good player and it is an optimal situation. Too many ways the Miller claim cam divert attention in the wrong direction.

I think I responded to this earlier, and this is definitely a tin foil, but this post reads to me like scum defending a buddy's fake miller claim

[TwoInAMillion]

Miller claims are usually true unless there is a counter. A lot of risk involved in a scum Miller claim.

On the other hand, you probably don't want a claimed Miller in lylo unless it's someone you trust as a good player and it is an optimal situation. Too many ways the Miller claim cam divert attention in the wrong direction.

I think I responded to this earlier, and this is definitely a tin foil, but this post reads to me like scum defending a buddy's fake miller claim

No it's common sense.

[Wossi]

Not me

VOTE: flubbernugget
Seems like a pretty open and shut case to me.

Vote HEM please

Serg, 2inamil, and Flubbernugget deserve attention today.

I love attention

but hey lets sheep. VOTE: Flubbernugget

What changed about HEM that you went from trying to get votes on him to sheeping him?

This is the point when I decided Skitter was town

[Wossi]

Unvote. Vote: Wossi

(L-2)

I found these two comments particularly bothersome:

You are what you say you are, if you say you're scum you're scum. I dont really understand how that wasnt clear....

This comment doesn't sound like someone actually interested in figuring things out.

also I was still excited by the fact that I just happened to random vote for scum

So skitter is scum but you would prefer to vote Flubber, who you acknowledge might be lying-town? Why is that?

Also, are you an alt? You sound slightly familiar.

And this is when wicked started looking really scummy. Taking quotes out of context smacks of ulterior motivation, and nothing quoted here warrants a L-2 vote

Is my vote still on Flubber? That's outdated....

VOTE: Wickedestjr