I think arrest of the players can tell this is town. If need be, I can Retrieve my data on why I hold this opinion.
Power to you, my friend. I believe you have no place in a penitentiary.
I'd say your ping is possibly true, but it's a bit early to say for sure. Tentatively, I want to say you ring the right bells.
I'd say you're nearly a townread. I sure hope you don't plead the 50th.
This is a pile of garbage I'm not sorting through right now.
I take beef with this post, but I admit I might be a little heavy-hamded in my read there.
A little bit of a schaddy entrance.
Though tons of fun, this gorram player is the king of scum.
VOTE: Gorkington
I believe the most likely answer is because your pile of trash doesn't have the interests of the town at heart. You are way outside of my town bin. In fact, I think you might be rotting.
VOTE: Mulch
It should be noted, however, that I feel your reads are anything but garbage. I just don't think their accuracy indicates a town alignment.
Apologies if I mess up formatting or appear to ignore new posts. I am posting on my phone.
I apparently need a change in tact. When I entered, I expected many people to read my puns. Instead, a grand total of 3 have even acknowledged me. The most engaging?
I admit my approach to puns is a bit of a copout, but if you want a simplified version of my reads, I can give you the general list of them.
Punreads: 1
Mulch
Gorkington
schadd_
EspeciallyTheLies2
Porkens
Titus3
KidAm4
Copper forged Friends: 1
Ginngie5
Almost 50
Whichever scummer I can't remember off the top of my head
Jingle
Stop Getting Banned Again
These are loosely ordered strongest punread to strongest copper forged friend read. There are new reads, so I need to explain.
2: EspeciallyTheLies : Though she doesn't know it yet, I know her, and was not especially fond of her entrance. It felt like she was telling tall tales.
3: Titus: I also know Titus. Her entrance lacked real reads, reasoning, and mechanics talk. It was altogether lazy. Admittedly, it's a bit early to condemn her; I will keep you abreast of the situation.
4: KidAm: Of the players in the game, this Kid is who I Am least familiar with. So the punread there is with the caveat I could be simply unfamiliar with them. Still, I wasn't fond of their entrance.
5: Ginngie: I want to raise a drink with her before elevating her, but initial results are promising.
1: Note: I have too many punreads, as I echo the sentiment of winning the game by townhunting, yet my lists are the inverse numbers of what they SHOULD be.
I'm hoping that if people actually ENGAGE me, I can bump 2 to 4 people out of the punread list. Speaking of which: the least engaging response to me as of me starting to write this was Jingle's vote, which I would quote if I could.
At least Porkens' engagement included a naked quote of my post.
If you are going to mislynch me, you don't get to go, "Oh Cheeky was scummy, so I ignored what Punreader said".
If you mislynch me, mislynch ME.
For reference, this was the last post in the thread when I began writing my last post.
Yes, if you do the math, that is over two hours. Mostly due to formatting and phone difficulties, plus not wanting to be fired on account of a forum game. (This "job" thing is also why there is a 2 hour gap between my last post and this post.)
I will be reading from this post I am quoting once I have a computer proper. (About 2 hours from now.)
Alright, let's now start from the 'top. To clarify,
Spoiler: 384, with the detail it'd have had if not mobile
The scummer in question is PenguinPower. However, I must admit, there is an error in the list I posted in 384. PenguinPower is a stronger copper-forged-friend-read than Jingle (albeit not by much), and thus, should be below him here.
Excluding the megahydra because I am not going to try and track my game history with 20 heads (just assume I have experience with most of them), I have played and/or modded at least one game with every player in this game (even if they are unaware of it). Of them, KidAm is the player I have the least recollection of in spite of me knowing I've seen them.
So if I told you I knew KidAm to any degree, I would be kidding myself. I can tell you at the time of 384 (or rather, the time of 358 which was when I began writing 384), I thought KidAm's entrance potentially was indicative of a pun player. However, this is a read which I've since changed my opinion on since 384 with reflection and closer reading. (Since before on mobile I was skimming.) Having taken a closer look, I actually weakly think the opposite, that KidAm is slightly more likely to be town.
I should have 3-5 punreads, and inversely, 6-8 copper-forged-friend-reads. Since I had 7 punreads/4 copper-forged-friend-reads in 384, I was in the wrong spot with my reads.
With me having rethought my KidAm read, I Am closer to being in the right spot, but I still need at least one of my current punreads to be booted out.
The post in question is Jingle's 354:
I also reference Porkens's 312.
These plus the quoted 313 were the only mentions I saw of me as of 358.
Porkens's reasons for calling me pun are mostly from CheekyTeeky, but he did naked quote my 294 to say "this is scum". (I consider this a naked quote because quoting a long wall with nothing altered about the wall and no reasoning backing the statement is what I would call naked.)
Jingle doesn't even give that much. He sheeps Porkens on the CheekyTeeky read. My point is, that is unacceptable. If you are going to mislynch me, you mislynch me because you are mislynching ME. Which requires interacting with ME. Something Jingle has not done, something Porkens barely did.
With that established...
Using a desktop, of course. 294, 302, and this post are all on one; only 384 (where I explicitly stated as such) and 429 (where I implicitly stated such) were on a phone. Since a personal computer is the default method of posting, I see no need to announce its usage; using a mobile device does merit declaration, in case the nature of the content doesn't make it obviously so.
Noteworthy: I have less of a beef with Porkens than I used to, but not enough to totally reverse my read. The best definition for my current read there is "ambivalent". This is a read which is bacon for further analysis, so I'll keep you apprised.
Gie, this is instantly either the second or most engaging interaction with me of the four as of 366. However, you are missing at least one big detail. Figure it out, and you'll understand.
Supplanting Ginngie as either lead or second out of fifth, we have:
Though "a person who reads puns" is a valid syntax for my username, the intended syntax is "a person who creates punreads". As such, to answer your second question:
Certainly not. There is never a time to stop giving punreads. Ergo, the time where I stop giving punreads is synonymous with the time I am dead.
False. You are not one of my top scumreads; you are my fourth-strongest punread. Since there is a massive gap between Mulch and everyone else in my punreads (Mulch is a strong punread, everyone else is a weak punread), this is far from a condemning read. However, my content which you can engage me on, you already quoted:
This is something you can inquire more about.
Titus's entrance was on page 13. That is 13 pages' worth of opportunities for her to have reads, reasoning, and mechanics talk. Even if it were the first page, she'd have the capability to do at least one; she effectively did none. I don't expect her entrance to be prefect, but I expect it to be juicier than what we got.
Solidly competing for ~spot #3/6, we have:
I already did.
I felt your entrance into the game was lacking something from your town game. What, exactly, I don't know, but something.
I am less certain than I was before, but you are certainly not making me feel like you're obvtown yet.
I'm explaining all of my reads, you just have to pay attention. The way I explain my reads differs on mobile because on a phone I can't make the quote wall that I use on a desktop.
Updated inventory:
Punreads:
Mulch (imagine a gap between here and below)
schadd_
EspeciallyTheLies (might be one lower)
Titus
Gorkington
The in-betweens:
Porkens
Copper forged Friends:
KidAm
Ginngie
Almost50
Jingle
PenguinPower
Stop Getting Banned Again
Still loosely ordered strongest punread to strongest copper-forged-friend-read.
And Jingle is still dead last in the interacting with me department given nothing has changed this:
Jingle, you are continuing to ignore me because lolCheeky. "Punreader's posts have done nothing to change that"?
Oh?
DO TELL.
I should probably note: just as there is a large gap between Mulch and my other punreads, there is a gulf between Stop Getting Banned Again and all my other copper-forged-friend-reads. I'd also say there's a fair gap between Jingle and Almost50, and there may be a gap between Jingle and PenguinPower. I also should note the KidAm replacement in here as well.
That wasn't what you could inquire more about.
This was.
Yes, precisely. PenguinPower is my second-strongest copper-forged-friend-read. I place punreads at the top, not the bottom. Refer to my vote; I'm certainly not voting a copper-forged-friend-read.
Fixing broken tag:
That wasn't what you could inquire more about.
This was.
Additionally, you could have responded to any of this.
Even the parts not addressed to you were things which could be commented on.
If my terminology is still confusing, refer to my username, then refer to what 'pun' rhymes with. (It does not rhyme with 'town'.)
Furthermore, think about what the game's theme is, and what an existing expression is if you use a different metal. (I prefer not to explain my puns, but if need be, I can.)
None of these address the content therein. I have given reasoning on every read of mine, which you ignore.
Incorrect. I couldn't remember twelve names when on my phone typing a long post; you're lucky I got eleven. However, just because I couldn't remember it was PenguinPower does not mean I could not remember the strength of my read. You can remember the strength of your read on a slot without remembering who the owner of a slot was, and that was precisely what happened. I knew the strength of my PenguinPower townread, just not that it was PenguinPower. Simply that I had a scummer who I was townreading that much and that the scummer was someone whose identity had slipped my mind.
Obviously not because if you knew who I was then I'd be on the hard town side.
I already did; you should have paid attention the first time.
PenguinPower had an incredibly town entrance, which was natural; there was absolutely nothing artificial or fake in his opening. This earned him the spot as my penultimate townread. Since then, there has been a perfect blend of being lighthearted and scumhunting; he's neither fluff posted nor been super serious. That is exactly what I would expect of him as town. Pending some major change, my townread there is never shifting its strength.
Thank you very mulch for asking. My reasoning is quite simple: meta. I am very strongly sure that Mulch's approach this game is his approach when pun.
Now, explaining what that approach is, that's unfortunately a little harder, and is what you're really looking for no doubt. It comes down not to so much what he is saying, or how often he is saying things, so much as it is how he approaches things.
Spoiler: Some key posts which highlight what I mean:
These are the type of post which have an entirely different approach if Mulch is town.
This is not quite the case, but something similar to this is indeed among the reasons I have her as a punread.
Hello, pot. I hear there is a lovely black kettle, you'll find it right inside the frying ban.
It sure is behavior many especially newer players would consider punny, but that doesn't make it pun. No, that's just him doing the jingle.
Gimmicks used to obscure a lack of content, sure. But mine is a gimmick used to obscure content, an entirely different ballpark. If you disagree, I'll volunteer to remove the shtick up your ass.
If he is town, it is because he has fairly sharp instincts. I agree with most of his reads and there is no doubt that the reads he is giving are good. If he is scum, it is because he is faking this process.
Not impossible, but not as easy a task as you'd think. It's a mulch harder project than you give credit for. When I can explain, I will.
That is another example of a post which if it were coming from a town Mulch would have a different approach for the record.
Ginngie is my weakest copper-forged friend-read, not my strongest.
Hey, plagiarist. Give me the credit I'm due.
Titus has indeed been lazy. I realize she has to fight for her honor, but she's yet to provide a triumphant return to the thread. I don't deify her, but I still expect more fight from her than what she's shown.
This, I get.
This, I do not, as that is actually one of the more plausible punteams in the game to me right now. I haven't checked if it's the most likely, and I admit this is the type of team where ETL sort itself out before long, but I don't see how you can say this with such certainty at this point in the game.
That post is precisely what makes me think the team is so viable in the first place. I don't know what the hell you're reading but those are textbook pun theater interactions. They're not surefire pun from the dialog, but it is something disproportionately likely to come from punbuddies. If you want me to highlight the especially egregious parts, I can.
But there is absolutely nothing there which is an interaction strongly suggesting they're unaligned. Quite the opposite. The soft distance is precisely the stratagem to use. So I strongly feel your Elimination of the team is a mistake.
You know what.
VOTE: Titus
There is a difference between Titus being bad-town, and her just being pun.
Yes, she uses moonlogic and has reads which don't match thread consensus as town.
But there is an internally consistent logic to it. You recognize it as being poor logic, as being crazy logic, but you can still trace the trajectory of her thoughts to understand how she arrived at the stance in the first place.
That is utterly absent here. So it'd be Berenice to see her hang.
Only with my main.
Take your pick:
It is an easy entrance.
It lacks accountability.
It is a stance she can continue to hold while doing nothing else.
It is an excuse to not provide content.
The better question is why would a town Titus decide to vote someone for language? Because even reaching into the bosom of the barrel, I can't find much in reasoning there.
Are you trying to write a case for Titus being town or pun? Because this is doing the latter.
I'm sorry, but if that was your only Cardassian to lay on the table, it's not good enough. "Too punny to be pun" is not a valid defense. Not even from skilled pun players. I don't care how good you are. You're not immune to making misplays. Just because you draw an alignment doesn't mean you know how to nail the interaction.
If it looks like a pun, then it is probably just a pun.
Drop all my non-Titus/ETL/schadd_ punreads, because this is a pun replacement. Cane you guess why?
And I gave you none. Calling it mind games is downplaying the rather unambiguous nature of the content.
To quote, once more:
Um.
That's not what I said.
That was generic-you. "You're not immune to misplays". Not "Jingle, you are not immune to misplays". You, as a generic character. The proper pronoun to use in place of the generic you would be "A person is not immune to misplays". That was what I was stating. So in this instance. The "You're not immune to misplays". Has the implication of. "ETL is not immune to misplays; Titus is not immune to misplays". Because both you (specific you), and Titus, fall under the generic You.
None of my points are questions because I don't ask questions. I raise points.
All of these are points.
Does isolating them make it easier on you?
Because I'm literally changing nothing else. Every one of these was something I told you you could engage with and you continue to refuse.
Though I must confess.
Somewhere along the line there was one lost in the pile which shouldn't have been:
Why yes, yes I do know he is town. A fact easily checked by reading my posts!
He is rather strongly a townread. And has been since very early. The only reason he frankly isn't a much stronger townread is out of respect to his pungame; I feel that while unlikely, this level of high-caliber play is possible from him as pun. Just incredibly improbable.
I never said you had lied. I said you told tall tales. While that was a pun on your username of EspeciallyTheLies, it was more hyperbolic. A more colloquial term to use would be your entrance felt faked.
Reference
When I said "You're not immune to misplays". It was an unspecified person you. Impersonal you. Indefinite you. Generic you. Call it what you want, but the meaning was quite clear. No player is immune to making misplays as pun. Context made it quite clear I was referring specifically to ETL and Titus's interactions.
(And yes I am rather strict about my language usage. It is a requirement for the gimmick.)
Apologies. I forgot to address this.
That's the problem, actually. Eddie's not where you want to be right now, trust me. His content since coming in has been to establish a presence and challenge you for the position of town leader and direct the town away from the direction it needs to head towards.
Given his competency as both alignments, I can confidently say that this is the play he makes as pun. His approach as town is entirely different.
To further clarify.
Eddie's both a remarkably strong town player AND a remarkably strong pun player. As a result, you can quite well use a modified version of Burden of Proficiency without it being fallacious. If the direction Eddie Cane takes the town is not correct and he makes moves which are advantageous to the pun (e.g. the power play in challenging your status as the town leader), then he is pun; if Eddie were town, then his approach would be something else altogether. (I'm trying to figure out a way of describing the trait of his towngame without giving away my identity. Even though it's basically an open secret at this point, I'd rather not altogether confirm it explicitly.)
I guarantee you he's a backstabber. Honestly he's probably my strongest punread right now, stronger even than Titus.
And to add in further reiteration: part of what makes the move pun is that he did spend that time to establish his presence and make it "known" he is "town". He took the time to make you like him. That is one of his strongest puntells.
I can say with upwards of 90% confidence I know my meta here. That level of confidence is higher than almost any other player.
To which player does this moinker refer?
Ironically this is the strongest piece of evidence that Titus-ETL wouldn't be pun-pun. (I wouldn't use it as undeniable proof the team's impossible, but even so it is undeniably a strike against that punteam's viability.)
You leave out:
Are you referring to me playing on this account? If so, can't do; this is my first game since the inception of this gimmick. Are you referring to a specific player? If so, sorry, still can't do; all of my meta with players in this game is from first-hand experience, be it as a game moderator/reviewer or a player; any game I thus would link you to could be used to trace my identity.
What I can offer you is this, perhaps even more valuable information than what you were after.
At some point since Eddie Cane has joined the site, he himself has indicated that I know what I am talking about in regards to metaing him.
Your options are thus.
I am pun who is bussing. In which case, lynch eddie first.
I am pun who is claiming what amounts to a 1v1 against a town eddie.
I am town who in spite of my experience ended up making the wrong call.
Or I am town who knows precisely what I am talking about.
Ironic that you say this and yet apparently missed the entirety of my reasoning for why Titus is pun.
I have some experience with schadd and extensive experience with Eddie, a fact you would know if you weren't selectively cherrypicking my posts.
An arguably unreasonable vote for pretty much policy reasons is something you expect from Titus. Thus it is something that she as pun would do to make people go "oh that's just Titus".
Titus is not required to policy vote to make a natural entrance into the game. Yet we didn't get that non-policy-vote natural entrance. We got the policy vote entrance.
As I said before.
You are writing a better case for her being pun than I did originally.
Small confession: it's a one-way process.
I can identify your pungame with high accuracy instantaneously.
In spite of that, I cannot identify your towngame with as high of an instant accuracy; it would indeed take me more time skirting around the edges for me to figure out.
Thus, it would be fair to state:
I cannot easily and readily instantly identify your towngame.
Even a lack of seeing your pungame does not help me.
However, seeing your pungame is instantaneous.
I feel significantly better about calling Gorkington and Draynth iron-forged friend-reads after their exchange.
And if I outed my main, I would be able to provide proof.
I would say it is comparable, yes.
Apologies. My stance on the hydra hasn't changed; they are my strongest townread for many of the same reasons they're a townread of yours. (Though I have reasons beyond that.)
As for the plan, I am on this account rather than my main specifically because I didn't want to bother thinking about mechanics. I decided I'd only raise an objection if I thought a plan was tremendously stupid. Your plan is not tremendously stupid; that is implied consent.
Oh really?
Who's refusing to talk, now?
Who's refusing to engage now?
Who's not answering questions now?
I don't recall anyone badmouthing Ellibereth.
Crossreference your nulls with my reads, which you should be able to locate in my iso. Not all have clear reasoning, but enough have clear reasoning that you can narrow things significantly. And those that you don't see clear reasoning for, you can ask about.
If you were wondering, this is a pun-driven counterwagon to lynching the actual pun, Titus.
Nosferatu I realize is a bit batty, but Nos's play this game is fairly bog-standard for Nos. Nosferatu is always mislynch bait, and yet is not known to be mislynch bait, making Nos an easy target. I do admit my Nosferatu read is to some extent reliant on Nos leeching off of KidAm's towncred, but while I cannot reliably say this is Nosferatu as a specific alignment, I can say this behavior from Nosferatu isn't indicative of pun so much as it is indicative of Nosferatu.
And you'll be waiting for a long time yet as all my Titus experience is intimately first-hand. Every game I would link to you, I'd have been involved in. Suffice to say you can just ask Jingle if I have extensive experience with Titus. He might not know my game history with her off the top of his head but he'd be able to find the answer's yes in less than five minutes.
Uh-huh. This is, explicitly, stating "I haven't refused to do any of these things, I'm just refusing to do any of these things".
Situationally, yes. He'll hard bus if hardbussing is the smart play to make; he won't bus at all otherwise because frankly if you're not hardbussing the only alternative is to not bus; any half-assed effort is ridiculously stupid punplay. He's a smart enough pun player to know this.
For the record, my stance is that his Nos vote? Not a hardbus.
You would know this had you actually read my posts.
Nothing has changed this. If I said that Nosferatu were a solid copper-forged friend-read, that would be a lie. However, Nosferatu is still a townread, and the wagon on Nosferatu is dismally bad. So gun to head, yes, I'd call Nosferatu town here eight times out of ten given this situation.
I provided my reasoning.
This still holds. I am quite positive you have been scumhunting and you yourself know that to be true. If you want me to point out the more 'lighthearted' content, I can.
I do have a confession though. Outside of Draynth, you are probably the player I have the least amount of game experience with, and if you did know who I was you would absolutely say I hold no right to the strength of my townread given past experience. Still, I believe from those past experiences I refined my method to hone in on the important part. Intuitively, it feels like I am correct here.
That's a nice narrative you are presenting.
Too bad it has zero correlation to reality.
If you are expecting live-time interactions, you are going to face luck of the draw and probably never catch me at the times I am online as I am online at the times most people aren't.
If you are expecting a wagon to form on me, you'll find one there already.
If you are expecting the vote on me to give you a better read on me, sorry, but you'll get more alignment information out of the others joining the wagon than you will on me.
If you were hoping to get some sort of reaction from me, apologies, but I find wagons on me to be utterly uninteresting.
Punreader is town because pun is a replace in that actually got significantly better. I'll re-quote pun's good quotes but a lot has already been said so I will not bore you to death.
"Internally consistent logic" =/= "hasn't changed the whole game". A fact you'd know if you noted that I specified TRAJECTORY of THOUGHT. "Trajectory of thought" means there is an evolution of thought. And when Titus is town, the trajectory of thought uses internally consistent logic which evolves with the changing nature of the gamestate to show a progression in thought that is crazy...but natural.
That is utterly absent here and thus my point holds. Titus this game as you yourself note has no change in spite of the evolving gamestate.
There were a great many Porkens posts, plenty to warrant this. Speaking of updating the read, it is loosely town, but with some reservations. About the tier you and Ginngie would be at. Maybe Draynth and Gorkington (though if not, it's because they'd be higher) as well.
Yes, that's precisely what made it indicative of pun. I wouldn't have batted an eye at schadd replacing out. Specifically opting to stay is what made it a pun replace.
Nobody asked. I don't provide reasoning unprompted. I provide reasoning only when given reason to.
I used quite specific wording you may note.
Acting town.
Not being town.
Eddie's replacement was to start acting town.
Eddie's replacement was not actually being town.
This made it be a pun entrance. Thus. If it looks like pun. It's probably just pun. And yes. "Acting town, but not being town" looks like pun to me!
Naturally not. I see no reason to hide a town trait.
And if you want to know the difference between the two.
Refer to the posts Nosferatu omits from my iso:
The last bolded+italicized+underlined part in particular is what I am referring to. Eddie took the time to make people like him.
Eddie as town is one of the biggest assholes on site. But you don't earn allies as an asshole.
Eddie as scum knows this and thus is nice.
Actually, this is something I can prove fairly easily without outing my identity. I did a site search on Eddie Cane. I didn't search for hydras and skirt skirt, so the results are not as inclusive as they could be, but I aimed for about ten games worth of references.
Scumgame; Eddie was nice.
Scumgame; Eddie established a strong presence and was a little nice. (Compared to Eddie as town, this is nice; you'll see what I mean.)
Scumgame; once Eddie came in, established a strong presence and was a little nice. (It shouldn't be that difficult to differentiate Eddie from KMD as they have very different styles. Once again, this might not look nice, but when you see the towngames you'll agree it is comparatively nice.)
Contrast:
Towngame; asshole immediately. He also didn't have nearly as strong of an entrance but that might just be my opinion.
Towngame; asshole albeit not immediately apparent. (Check out his "I like pissing you off" post; that is a town Eddie.)
Towngame; a bit of an asshole, and also not establishing a strong presence immediately.
Towngame; a huge asshole, and also not establishing a strong presence immediately.
Speaking of Team Mafia...
Towngame; immediately an asshole, and also not establishing a strong presence immediately.
Eddie as scum establishes a presence immediately and is nice; Eddie as town doesn't bother to establish a presence immediately and doesn't bother to be nice.
This is his pungame.
I do because I know from experience that the traits I describe are specific to their alignment.
Spoiler: Theory talk
It is well-known that scum players of some significant skill usually establish a strong presence, and then off of that presence manipulate the gamestate to be advantageous to them.
It is also self-evident that being well-liked is a significant portion of what you might say is the "popularity contest" aspect of the game. If you are nice, people like you back. If enough people like you, you've gained an advantage in the popularity contest. It is thus to scum's best interest to be well-liked, because well-liked players are people that players hesitate to lynch especially on D1. You need look no further than this very game where many individuals have stated something to this effect: "I don't want them lynched D1".
The inverse works as thus.
It is self-evident that if you are an asshole, people tend not to like you. They react negatively to your presence. They want you out of the game and are hesitant to support you. You need look no further than people's reactions to Stop Getting Banned Again's earlier antics or the fact many players have negatively reacted to my deliberately-obtuse posts. These behaviors do not earn you allies; they earn you enemies. The more enemies a pun player has, the harder the game becomes for them to win.
It is then in a pun player's best interests to not deliberately do this, and countless town wins have resulted from pun players trying to mimic their town meta when doing so is a tremendously bad idea. Whereas inversely, a town player doesn't think consciously about gaining allies. A town's first directive is to scumhunt. It is only after that first directive that the need to be charismatic comes into play. It is thus the case that a town player, not knowing who is town and who is scum, will naturally tend to be more of a jerk, because they don't know who to trust initially and also because being a jerk can help their scumhunting. Inciting reactions from others helps to refine reads.
I know that is a bit of a long read (worth it imo but I'm obviously biased), so:
TL;DR version: A town player is a jerk because of being uninformed; their lack of information causes both distrust and a desire to gain information, traits which produce assholes.
A pun player who tries to be a jerk mimicking their townplay typically ends up lynched, thus giving them incentive to not replicate it. Instead, a pun player being nice typically makes people want to keep them around. This serves the pun wincon.
So it's not that you can't do it differently. It's that doing it differently negatively impacts your chances of winning as pun.
So I stand by my assessment. You are pun this game because you are being nice and you established a strong presence, something which is not the natural tendency for a town player but is the most advantageous strategy of a pun player. By the modified usage of burden of proficiency, "if it is advantageous to punplay, it is punplay", I rest my case.
Bonus round:
Free townpoints to the player who can correctly identify why these two posts back to back never come from a town player.
You're on the right track, actually, but not quite.
Bonus points for why Eddie is pun:
You know that theory talk I just did, where I outline how my meta on Eddie being a jerk as town and nice as pun is correct?
Eddie denies it as being true here...and yet?
Earlier, in this location:
..He states this to be true.
As town, he is prone to insulting players; the mastina quote he indicates as being an accurate descriptor of him states as much. He states that ETL's "as scum, generally likeable; as town, pretty easy to piss off to the point of being ineffectual" is a more extreme version of him.
So if you don't trust my words on the subject RE: Eddie meta...trust his own words on the subject.
Eddie confessed in 790 that as town he is an asshole and as pun he is generally likeable (which I designate with the term, "nice").
This game, Eddie has been generally likeable.
Thus, he is pun.
I'm not. Quite the opposite:
I opened about 11-13 tabs worth of games which came up on this site search.
The games I opened up were the first games that were not ongoing. The most recently completed games available when doing a lazy half-assed search.
That's about as far away from being selective as you can get; it is literally the results which are most readily available unfiltered.
In my experience, there are two types of drawn-out engagements.
The type of engagement where posts bring up either new information or further clarify existing information between players until all parties involved walk away with a far greater understanding of the game. (Incidentally this is my frustration with ETL as she is refusing to do this.)
And the type of engagement where posts are largely just rehashing the existing information slightly restating it and the parties involved are arguing to win an argument more than anything else.
In short, the former leads to players coming out with refined reads.
The latter leads to a "I won this argument" and nothing better.
I believe it need not be explained why the former is pro-town and the latter is anti-town.
My judgment on the matter is that there is no way for me to engage you directly and have it be the former; no matter what angle I approach it from, I can only see it devolving into the latter.
So believe me I would love to, but I think the health of the gamestate is better if I don't. At least, not with you. Indirectly it may be possible if I am engaging a different player on my points (as they, being a mostly-unbiased third party, would inherently by their nature be directing things in an environment conductive to new information surfacing/existing information being clarified), but for that we will need to wait for them to provide their input.
I raised my points; you raised your counterpoints. I don't see anything except "no, this" "no, that" arising from direct interaction.
That having been said.
To throw you (and everyone for that matter) a bone.
It should be noted that no tell is absolute. No approach is absolutely town 100% of the time or absolutely pun 100% of the time. So when I say "a town player is an asshole that doesn't bother to establish their presence; a scum player establishes a presence while being nice", that is a guideline not an absolute rule, which should be self-evident. It is a trait strongly indicative of alignment. It is not a trait absolutely indicative of alignment.
When I originally stated you were pun, I stated I was about 90% confident in the read. That percentage is about how strongly the trait indicates alignment. (I'd say it's more 80-85%, the extra 5-10% being other facts I punread you off of.)
Free town points to those who can figure out why this post in of itself is a punclaim.
Very close. The first half is the first half of it, yes. But the second half isn't what I'd say makes it pun.
And, apologies, but no. I can give the reasoning at any time but I won't until the majority of people check in. Be annoyed at them being riddles all you'd like. It won't change how we have the time to let everyone form their guesses. And it should be self-evident what can be gained by letting everyone do exactly that.
So, no. I refuse to drown the town down in a "no u" argument, and that is precisely what you're trying to bait me in to. I have said my points. I do not see anything productive coming from a direct interaction with you beyond that.
There are 11 other players in the game who can weigh in on the issue. And we have the time to let them do exactly that. So I opt to raise engagement rather than lower it.
Okay, fine.
One response.
That's all you're getting.
Observation: Those games are on another site.
Question #1: Was the game run identically styled to a mafiascum game? That being, two week deadlines or something to that effect, majority lynch, etc.?
Question #2: Was the game balanced/designed to the standards of a mafiascum game? Other sites e.g. Mafia Universe tend to run games which are by mafiascum standards hilariously scumsided.
Question #3: Was the game entirely comprised of mafiascum players?
If the answer to ANY of these is "no", the meta presented isn't comparable.
The reason why it isn't comparable is that the points I am raising are points specific to mafiascum meta.
Other sites work on different meta standards.
So unless the game was literally a mafiascum game hosted off-site, the meta isn't comparable to mafiascum meta.
Of course I'm not trying to sort you. I already did sort you.
And we have plurality lynch rules; it's impossible to no-lynch so there should be no deadline rush this game.
A fine request! (To answer, Porkens is not a preferred lynch since he is loosely a townread; Titus as a strong punread is my current and preferred vote and you can iso me to see my reasoning.)
Why don't you start by sharing your own?
Because you've been fairly indirect on the subject.
You explain Porkens but neither Titus nor myself.
As an aside: if Titus flipped pun, I would be second-guessing my initial assessment of Almost50 and would recommend taking another look there. If Titus flipped town, I'd still hold to my initial townread there.
Scum result SGBA.
If this breaks the plan, apologies.
VOTE: Titus.
I'm keeping commentary back as a precaution.
Well in that case.
The Ginngie kill is strange. If you iso her, there are four possible conclusions to come from it.
I am pun who killed her. (I personally know this to not be the case. Unfortunately since I have no proof, that means I may need to be lynched before lylo.)
Someone who is pun in this game knows I would killer her as pun and decided to frame me for it in spite of me playing on an alt. (I will list the players who could do this in a moment. It is a very short list.)
Someone who is pun in this game has experience with her to know of her skills.
Or someone who is pun off of the content she posted felt threatened.
Let's go off of these in reverse order.
The only player who Ginngie really pushed this game as pun with any strength is Titus; if you look at her iso, it is fairly apparent that she was pushing Titus harder than any other player. This would make Titus pun. I find this the most likely.
The list of players with experience with Ginngie is PenguinPower, Gorkington, Nosferatu, eddie, and Titus. In which case, within those 5 names you have a minimum of 1 scum, potentially up to three. This would give Titus fairly good odds of being pun. This is the second-most-likely.
The list of players with the aptitude to know I would kill Ginngie is limited to eddie and Titus. In which case, within those two names you have a minimum of one scum, possibly two. This would give Titus a 50% chance minimum of being pun. This I admit is quite unlikely, but it is not altogether impossible.
By the nightkill, she would thus be the player most likely to be pun.
Beyond that, she is incredibly likely to be pun thanks to the nature of how late-D1 unfolded, something I will explain at another time.
She should have been the lynch yesterday and she still should be the lynch today.
Apparently the mod did not take into account that on Mother's Day there would be inferred V/LAs.
Believe it or not, I don't disagree with you. My reasoning, process, and certainty no doubt differs from yours, but the conclusion I reach is much the same; she is a copper-forged-friend-read.
I am still fairly confident in Titus/Eddie but if you wanted me to name a third, it would be solely based on a combination of POE and "which townread is the weakest" and I would massively prefer to not vote outside of them for that reason. While there is a pun outside of Titus/eddie, trying to find who said pun is would be more likely to lynch town.
Of course it feels that way because I explicitly told you it was halfassed in the post itself. I'd be rather concerned if you called it feeling like something other than what I self-labeled it as.
Bad idea/judgment.
Why aren't I scummy to you?
Jingle has good reason to pin me as town off of what I have done. But my content has certainly not been as town as it could be.
Would love to see you try that.
Sure! You're eligible for a lynch D2!
Especially for content like this!
This can be explained by an understanding of where I'm coming from.
I'm not here to win; I'm here to have fun. Of course, winning is fun, but my fun isn't dependent on winning.
You should probably read the rest of the game to notice that I am punreading the two players you most accuse aside from me, eddie and Titus. Am I a double-busser? (The answer is, most of the time, 'no'.) Or is one of your punreads in that group wrong?
Yes, quite so. Which makes a lot of sense when you consider that she's the new PenguinPower. Ank that something?
I'll provide some more extensive content when I'm not thoroughly wasted from the holiday.
Confession: my past experience with Nosferatu has largely been me misreading Nosferatu when town as being pun.
This is a driving factor between my hesitance to label Nosferatu with that title. And inversely, the fact I've seen some town when usually reading Nosferatu as pun might be evidence that Nosferatu is pun. I simply don't have a solid metric by which to ground my read on the slot. Clawing through the evidence, I still loosely see signs of being town: the bad composition of the Nosferatu wagon both on D1 and D2 (especially given as on D1 Nosferatu was a counterwagon to Titus), combined with Nosferatu's general approach to the game loosely indicating to me a lack of care.
Certainly not a vampillar of towniness, and given that I know I have one pun among my townreads is a realistic candidate for being one especially given my lack of ability to reliably read the slot, so I'm not altogether opposed to a wagon there. I'm simply not nearly as optimistic as you are about the odds of hitting pun.
Small confession: regardless of account I am using (so I do this on my main), regardless of my alignment, I do exactly this in every game; I post infrequently half-deliberately so that I have more information available when I make my entrance. (This is not something I've disclosed before.)
Though, that having been said, there is a healthy dosage of me genuinely being unwell mixed in; I have not been feeling great for the last week or so and that has negatively impacted my performance in games, particularly this one. (I'm ashamed to say my punwriting powers have taken a severe hit among other things.)
Because your reversal in stance is altogether uninteresting.
I vouch for this, and it is indeed one of the main reasons I have such a strong punread on Titus.
Anyone care to take a schadd at why this post is pun?
Or for that matter, this pun?
And my read there remains about the same. Almost50 has, as of late, regardless of alignment, adapted a more "empty" playstyle: as if his age has caught up with him, he's gone from being vigorously active to barely active at all. And because he does this as both town and pun, the tells which I used on him previously are much harder to lock in.
However, I still maintain my assessment there is, overall, accurate: his play this game is more reminiscent of a weaker towngame than a weaker pungame. (It is undeniable regardless of his alignment that this is a weaker game, so the question isn't what alignment would play weaker; the question is which alignment this particular weaker game better fits. I believe, loosely, this is closer to the weaker town than a weaker pun.)
In spite of my assessment, with a Titus punflip, he becomes a quite viable punbuddy. Yet a Titus townflip almost altogether clears him. I wouldn't quite lock him as 100% town off of a Titus townflip, but I'd place him solidly in my copper-forged-friend-reads at the very least.
This is one reason why I have been adamant that Titus dies first. Her flip directly correlates to Almost50's alignment. But vice-versa is not the case. Almost50 flipping town does not clear Titus even remotely; Almost50 flipping pun does not condemn Titus even remotely. Titus flipping town might not clear Almost50 but it gets as close as you can get; Titus flipping pun might not condemn Almost50 but it gets as close as you can get.
I'll risk a mobile post in order to record my process right now.
It's a simple numbers game:
11 alive, 3 pun.
I know myself to be town. 3/10, 30% odds of lynching pun.
The hydra is town. 3/9, 33% odds.
Assume Jingle is town. 3/8, 37.5% odds.
Assume Jingle and I combined have an accurate townread on ETL. 3/7, some percentage I don't know without using a calculator.
Assume Jingle can read Mulch and I have a good read from Draynth. 3/6, 50% odds.
Assume Ankamius is town. 3/5, 60% odds of lynching pun.
The remaining names are Nosferatu, Almost50, Gorkington, eddie, and Titus.
The former 3, I townread, but one townread is wrong, possibly two but definitely not all 3.
The latter two, I punread. There is at least one pun in them, if not two.
50-100% odds of lynching pun (eddie or Titus) beats 33-66% odds of lynching pun.
I will respond to other content when I can quote.
I'll further add: yes, I am at an absolute loss for which of the three remaining are pun. They are literally identical levels of unknown. I am deferring my reads there to others, as they are more likely to pin it down than I am.
In my towngames, I can't name the entire punteam. I CAN name (entire punteam) - 1, which in a mini is 2/3. Those are eddie and Titus. But the last, the third, I won't find.
Before I begin, let me first continue with my prior thoughts.
Extrapolation from my math will also help further explain my stances here. If you assume we have three pun in the pool of five, divided into the three unknowns and eddie/Titus, then the overall odds of copping pun are 75% regardless. (You'll see the math there momentarily.) However, some scenarios are more advantageous than others.
We have two chances to hit pun; our aim should be to hit pun with both the lynch and the cop. However, of the two, the cop is as per the plan the more important of the two to get correctly, if I'm not mistaken. Thus, we should be aiming for maximum odds of hitting pun with the cop, and the scenarios play out as follows.
If we lynch pun in the unknown three (Gorkington/Almost50/Nosferatu), there's a 50% chance of no pun in the remaining two and a 50% chance of one pun in the remaining two. If you average that, copping in that group would give 25% odds of hitting pun in there. Not good odds.
Of course, in contrast, by copping in eddie/Titus, you have a 50% chance of one pun and 50% chance of two pun so the odds of hitting pun are 75%. Not bad, but we can do better. The consolation prize here is of course having lynched pun.
If we lynch town in the unknown three, there's a 50% chance of one pun and a 50% chance of two pun in the remaining two, identical to eddie/Titus. Regardless of which group we'd cop in, then, that'd be 75% odds of hitting pun. While not bad, we can do better especially as this would be after a town flip.
If we lynch pun in eddie/Titus, there is a 50% chance the cop on the other is town and a 50% chance it is on pun. If we cop in the three unknowns, there's a 50% chance of one pun, 50% chance of two pun, with three targets. I'm not quite positive on the math here, but I believe the math works out to be 50% chance of hitting pun.
This scenario seems the worst of them, as it is the only scenario where we have a mere 50% chance. (The silver lining would be of course that we lynched pun.) However, critically, it is counterbalanced by the following:
If we lynch town in eddie/Titus, there is a 100% chance of copping pun by targeting the one we didn't lynch (Titus/eddie). Though copping confscum might seem like a waste, it establishes sanities unambiguously as per the plan to cop town N1 and pun N2. There is no other scenario which gives us this guaranteed result. It does, of course, require a mislynch today, I do realize that's a flaw in the plan, but the tradeoff would be worth it. We would know cop sanities for sure going into D3 by crossreferencing results from yesterday with results from tonight, with guaranteed accuracy in the results. And to confirm, we lynch the confscum and coordinate targets before hammering.
This is one of the reasons why I am strongly pushing for an eddie/Titus lynch over a lynch in the unknown three.
If we hit town in eddie/Titus, we cop the other knowing we're copping pun.
If we hit pun in Titus/eddie, we lynched pun albeit placing us at 50-50 odds on copping.
If we hit town in the unknown three, we have a 75% chance of hitting pun with the cop, giving us not only results which aren't guaranteed but also a dead town.
If we hit pun in the unknown three, we have a 75% chance of hitting pun with the cop, giving us results which aren't guaranteed.
The odds of hitting pun on lynching eddie/Titus are 75%. (1.5 scum in two names.)
The odds of hitting pun on lynching within the unknown three are 50% overall. (1.5 scum in 3 names.)
It's a numbers game between how advantageous/disadvantageous each scenario is and how likely those scenarios are.
My mental math calculates lynching in eddie/Titus gives the greatest value for the least cost overall.
Additional post before I begin. My math relies on assumptions given in this post, so I should explain this process in greater detail.
Obviously I need not explain why I view myself as town, but if need be, I can lay out why I am objectively town. (I prefer not to as in most cases proving yourself to be town is not productive to punhunting. However, if it is necessary to demonstrate that I am town in order to implement gamebreaking stratagem, then I am capable of doing so.) Even without having done so, Jingle has a fairly good idea of how to read me; he knows what I am more likely to do as each alignment. As long as you trust we're not punbuddies, then, you can trust his read in me.
This is a fairly universal townread, and for good reason. Some players have noted suspicion on the hydra but those players are most likely pun. (Namely, Titus, but I believe eddie has casted suspicion on the hydra as well. I could be mistaken on that and if so I apologize. I'll check later.)
There was good reason they were selected to be the cop target: they were the slot people could most widely agree on as being town. And I need not cite reasons of my own. Instead, I need only ask players iso themselves and whoever else they want to and check out their own reasoning to remember why the hydra was cleared. The reasons still hold and that is not a read which should deteriorate with time.
Using my own reasoning though, while most of the heads have flaked from playing altogether, that is not a pun-tell for megahydra. It is a problem with uncoordinated hydra where people like the idea of the megahydra but the reality makes them not be interested. The trolly behavior of the hydra is a minor towntell based on past experience with megahydra, including their antics. If they were pun deliberately trying to replicate the mechanism of EldritchAbomination, they succeeded, but I find it more likely that they simply accomplished this feat on their own by doing what is natural of megahydra and putting their own spin on it.
And just like EldritchAbomination, while they trolled about especially early in the game, they did take the game seriously and commit to content. They did not, contrary to Titus's narrative, try to hide behind shitposting. They were open about everything and their thought process could clearly be seen. The content generated has shown what I believe to be genuine attempts at gamesolving, without any sign of manipulation.
This one is easy: Jingle is well outside of his pun range. There is a genuine glean in his eyes at the attempt to break the setup. As pun, he would be faking a gamebreak and be glad about it, but while I admit I have only casually glanced at his process, I firmly believe that if he were pun proposing a flawed plan, I'd still have picked up on it.
Jingle's process this game has been a perfect blend of pun hunting, townhunting, and mechanics work, fusing the three together flawlessly. There is not a divide between them as far as I can tell; there is not a broken process resulting from artificial separation of the three. If Jingle were pun, maintaining this flawlessly coherent narrative wouldn't be viable across the whole game and yet in spite of me looking for the signs, he's yet to demonstrate any divergence.
If you don't trust my read on him, then EspeciallyTheLies has a fairly good track record on him as well. While she has had multiple bouts of paranoia on Jingle, overall she has held a consistent townread on him. Again, the options would then become they are punbuddies or that their read can be trusted. Which makes a fine segue into my next part:
Jingle is probably the best player in all of mafiascum at reading EspeciallyTheLies. He hydras with her, he has extensive experience from every angle with her as a mod as a punbuddy as pun with her town and as town with her as pun. He has worked with her for a long period of time and knows what is indicative of her as town and what isn't.
He took a long time to establish the townread there, but he did establish one even disregarding his NKA. While I'm not as convinced on his NKA logic holding, I see the merit behind the idea; Ginngie is not a nightkill I see EspeciallyTheLies as likely to make. And that brings me to the other half. Even if Jingle's read couldn't be trusted. I am probably in the top five players in mafiascum at reading EspeciallyTheLies. A lot of her earlier content wasn't ringing town (which in of itself indicates pun), but many of her later thoughts contain processes I am reasonably confident don't come from her as pun.
Additionally, there is no viable punteam which includes her. Who are her punbuddies? While interactions without flips are spotty at best, every interaction suggests she's not pun with any player that is viably pun. This is something which may require additional explaining with further references, but a short version is that there were a few key parts of her posts and posts from others about her which I firmly believe aren't falsifiable.
I can vouch for Jingle's process on Mulch being quite likely to be accurate. Sure, no tell is 100%, but they are still disproportionately likely to be right. As long as you assume Jingle is town, you can thus assume Jingle knows what he is talking about. Additionally backing this up is my read on Draynth.
Draynth's contributions to the game were, by and large, fairly null, neither inherently town or pun. However, his dialog with Gorkington contained a spark of something which a player of Draynth's caliber simply cannot produce as pun. There was an extensive real-time back-and-forth with a fair amount of stream-of-consciousness with Draynth laying out his process, his reads, his reasoning, and showing his sincerity in his beliefs. That level of genuine posting is not something I would expect from a player who is, comparatively speaking, fairly weak.
This read I'm not sure if I have Jingle's backing on though I would certainly appreciate it if I did. I have already explained why I strongly felt PenguinPower's contributions to the game were town, but then we come to Ankamius.
Effort may not equal alignment, but the resulting content of that effort most certainly does. In other words, Ankamius came into this game and hit the floor running, producing a stream of content continuously, unprompted. She had no incentive to do this; she was under only minimal pressure and with only minor levels of suspicion. And furthermore, as the game has progressed, the suspicion she did have has vanished; the strong posting didn't taper off after that and if anything only grew stronger.
The content she is giving shows strong, independent thought, where she is actually trying to give useful, unique thoughts and shed her own perspective on matters. There is a clear evolution in her reads which you can track as she progresses along. She has grown more and more confident and pushed things harder and harder the more she has gotten into the game. If she were pun, this behavior would burn her out fairly rapidly; she doesn't have the force of personality to be a "town leader" as pun for any extended length of time. And yet here she is, pushing away.
This is how you get to the critical stage of five names left: three players I have reasons to townread even though I can acknowledge the reasons to punread them and know for an absolute fact actually contain a pun (if not two), two players I am strongly punreading. Gorkington/Almost50/Nosferatu, and eddie/Titus.
With this established, I'll be responding to others now.
Not much. Weaktown has a little more tunnelvision; weakpun has less of a focal point.
His content this game is loosely centric around the same key points (namely, Titus), so, very loosely, that would be why I see town.
I am quite aware this is rather weak.
If it is any consolation, if I had to name one of Almost50/Nosferatu/Gorkington as pun and not the others, backed into a corner and pressed for time, I'd select Gorkington.
I wouldn't be comfortable doing so, but if I had no other choice I would. Although...
I do confess the temptation to go onto Almost50 is rather strong.
I have explained my eddie read in extensive detail; it is available by searching my iso. (I didn't add in schadd but you can search that as well.)
Not particularly, no. The idea behind this account has a traceable origin. I'm not going to tell people who I am or give information which tells people who I am intentionally, but I also intended to use this account even if it became publicly known because I can do things on this account I don't do on my main.
It would be altogether far more interesting if I wasn't being hit with real life factors which kill my creativity.
On the contrary! I hold by my statement. I don't consider myself a remarkable punhunter, true enough. I acknowledge the multitude of imperfections, particularly earlier in the game. I do consider myself a competent punhunter, given the right circumstances. This game environment is the perfect place for me to be at my best.
I'm quite certain I'm correct with having it narrowed down to 3/5 individuals. I'm perfectly aware I haven't named the correct three of those five and have been rather open about doubting my ability to. Even given this inability to be 100% right, I maintain that having a correct pool of 3/5 is good read accuracy.
If you are town then even you should be able to acknowledge my reads and process has a large overlap with yours, yes? Many of my "nulls" are yours; you share the Titus punread. It is one of the reasons I am not pursuing you (you are my preferred cop target); I'm quite aware you have no qualms with bussing, but there still remains the chance you are town who genuinely came to similar conclusions as I am.
The problem was Ginngie wasn't a "no shit" kill. The only way Ginngie fits as a "no shit" kill is if I were pun, but since I know I'm not, I know for a fact Ginngie wasn't a "no shit" kill.
I ask you this as a quite serious question.
This is an open game where everyone has the same role; Ginngie died N1 before any cop sanities could be known. As a result, Ginngie cannot have been killed for role.
If you assume I am town, then Ginngie cannot have been killed as a "no shit" kill.
So then, why did Ginngie die?
What players make that kill? In general, and in this game specifically?
I already laid out my thoughts on this.
Not something I like to admit in mafia games because I hate to use it as an excuse to not produce content, but it shouldn't be too hard to surmise I have been depressed as well, which is one reason I've been making less puns. Puns require a certain level of enthusiasm it can be difficult to muster when depressed.
The wagon was half-policy, half-laziness; when people started to read my posts and take me more seriously, they realized that their initial assumptions were mistaken and thus that the wagon was bad.
A little hard to PR hunt in an open.
The list of people who would ever fearkill Ginngie is even shorter.
Oh? And who does scum-you kill? Got a particular name in mind?
Scum-you can kill literally anyone in this playerlist. If you say otherwise, it's an outright lie; there is no player here who demands death N1. You have flexibility. Flexibility to choose literally anyone and have it be about the same. There are some nightkills who are bad nightkills, but Ginngie wasn't a bad nightkill. So there is no reason it wouldn't be you. In fact, you're one of the few who WOULD kill her. As I said, "the list of people who would ever fearkill Ginngie is even shorter."
I don't put much stock in his ability to read her, thus why Almost50 flipping town does nothing to Titus's alignment and Almost50 flipping pun does nothing to Titus's alignment.
I do put stock in what his defense of her means. Thus why Titus flipping town is loosely but not strongly evidence of Almost50 being town, and why Titus flipping pun is evidence of Almost50 being pun.
This is why I prefer Titus over Almost50 as well. Almost50's lynch does not tell us Titus's alignment in any way; Titus's alignment can shed light on Almost50's alignment.
Not many players make disruption kills.
Who do you wager are the players most likely to make a disruption kill?
The list is quite short. Titus, Almost50, and eddie are the only players I'd profile as making one. And when I say "I'd profile them as making one", I mean that they are the only three I'd say a disruption kill is even possible coming from.
You neglect that you can easily substitute my name in for yours and have this work just as well. Or my name for most parts. I am strongly townreading Jingle, ETL, and you. I am townreading the hydra. I'm not letting ETL or Jingle get lynched, and I certainly have the ability to influence things to make lynching me fairly difficult.
This was the basis of my process.
We have a townbloc.
You, Jingle, EspeciallyTheLies, the hydra, me makes 5/11 covered, leaving 6/11 left, half of which are pun. If you trust in Jingle's Mulch read which I do especially paired with my Draynth read, that's 5/11 names left:
Titus, eddie, Gorkington, Almost50, and Nosferatu.
Doing the math, so long as the townbloc remains uncompromised, we don't even need to lock down cop sanities. The game is an autowin because between today and tomorrow we have two mislynches and we know there are three pun in a pool of five. Mislynch twice, and the remaining three are pun.
In fact I want you, Jingle, and EspeciallyTheLies to pay attention to this in particular and make sure that the hydra and Draynth's slot follow as well.
The lock-town are Ankamius, Jingle, EspeciallyTheLies, Stop Getting Banned Again, and the Draynth slot. (Excluding me.)
If you have ANY doubts about any of those names, then you need to talk it out and listen to why those names are all lock-town.
And then if you add me in, we cannot lose the game so long as you do the above. All it needs is for me to be proven town and then you've got the game absolutely won.
One way you can do this:
In a pool of five (or six if you include me) names,
Titus, eddie, Gorkington, Almost50, Nosferatu. (And me if you include me.)
You can ask for one name to be removed.
In return, if someone else asks for a name to be removed, you trust them to remove that name.
For a hypothetical example, say you ask Jingle to remove Nosferatu; say Jingle asks you to remove me.
Then we lynch within the four remaining and cop within the three remaining.
I don't have any name I feel strongly enough about to ask you to remove from the pool (aside from myself but obviously I can't ask to remove myself), but Jingle might; ETL might; the hydra might, and so on and so forth. As long as the list doesn't become zero names, you should be good using this, yes?
If you are referring to 1852, the "tl;dr" version of it was already posted...
...In the post I was quoting, 1682.
I know myself to be town.
Stop Getting Banned Again is universally town.
Jingle is town for multiple reasons.
ETL is town because both Jingle and I, two of the players best at reading her, hold a townread there.
OnTheMark is town because Jingle had a lock-towntell on Mulch, I read Draynth as town, and now OnTheMark is (sadly) doing what he always does as town.
Ankamius is town because PenguinPower was town for reasons previously outlined and for Ankamius's content since replacing in.
All of this information could be inferred from the original post, but lacked thorough explanation. I felt providing the process would help outline exactly why I feel the way I do.
Mafia on Titus.
Mod: I need a 48 hour V/LA.
More like 40, actually, but I can't post tomorrow or half of the day after.
I'll return when able to.
VOTE: eddie.
Would also vote jjh as that's the solve.
If you truly do, then I can, but not until much later this weekend. A few days, earliest.
Yes, and I went extensively into the logic as to why. It had Almost nothing to do with the Old Fogy. The logic, in actuality, mostly revolved around the cops, so if you were to make this argument you would be saying I tied Titus to eddie (because that's what I did), not to Almost50 (because that's not what I was doing).
You and I must have very different definitions of white knighting as I was punreading Titus (which is the polar opposite of whiteknighting) and I cannot white knight a punbuddy.
Lynching me will cost you the game. Why is that, you may ask, when we have two mislynches to spare? Quite simple. OnTheMark is hard-townreading me. However, otherwise, I find OnTheMark's stances to be fairly terrible. Do you disagree with my statement that OnTheMark's reads are fairly bad?
The problem then becomes evident. Upon my mislynch, you vindicate OnTheMark. He feels justified in having held the stances he did. He doubles down on his conclusions. And because the mafia only need a single town vote in lylo, OnTheMark hands them the win on a silver platter. I guarantee you, you seal the fate of the town to that death if you lynch me, because that is exactly what will happen. OnTheMark will feel as if he was right. His other stances which are wrong then get pushed. And we lose.
How does that work? Simple. You mislynch me. And then tomorrow, OnTheMark doesn't get the lynch he wants. Unless you DO lynch pun that day, you're put in lylo...with OnTheMark still wanting those lynches he hasn't gotten. So he votes, scum hammer, game over.
If you are set on finding my alignment out, trust me, copping me is a much safer option. Especially since I am probably one of the only players here who can talk OnTheMark down from those terrible stances and shift his focus into better ones. On that note,
Far more likely is that Stop Getting Banned Again was killed for being cop-cleared as town; at this stage, pun cannot afford absolute conftown running around.
Why were they conftown? Because pun knew that the results of N2's copping would show them and Titus to be of the same alignment and from there it would be easy to figure out that alignment isn't mafia due to Titus-SGBA interactions not being punbuddy interactions. Parity copping Titus and the hydra spewed them as town.
Killing conftown > Killing obvtown. Do you disagree?
And lynching me when OnTheMark is adamant I am town and has your townbloc as their punreads is the singular way you can change 'nearly unloseable' into 'guaranteed loss'.
You cannot talk OnTheMark down when I flip town.
You CANNOT talk OnTheMark down when I flip town.
Any assumption that you can is thus disastrous.
Trust me. Or if you don't trust me. Look into Mathblade's past game history. The results, time and time again, will tell you exactly what I am saying is the case. You will not get him to bend to your will. And by lynching me, you will forever cement him as your enemy in spite of you both being town. You can mark my words on that.
OnTheMark will be left alive until lylo, even if made conftown. OnTheMark will promise to reevaluate and will do so. But if pushed past his breaking point (and lynching one of his strongest townreads is pushing him dangerously close to exactly there) is a good way to ensure he still messes it up. You need to get him on the same page. And you will never get that if you mislynch me. You CAN get that by helping talk to OnTheMark about the other pieces of the puzzle and logic.
I will do similarly. I'll try to explain to OnTheMark why it's not you, why it's not Ankamius. Make the towncase for him rather than you, I suppose. I'll show my homework, show the process, show the math. And I encourage you to treat him with respect. I think he's wrong on his punreads, but that he can get to the right spot with proper explanation. "You're an idiot" is not proper explanation.
Working with him is. For instance, he's not wrong about factors such as Nosferatu being spewed as town. I'll be trying to build up what he's done with work like that and show him why he's got many things right but where the inconsistencies in his solving are and when those inconsistencies are removed why it leads to the correct path.
Something which should get your suspicion off of Ankamius altogether: Ankamius held those reads, and with greater accuracy, before I did. Or if not before, then at around the same time. She was literally the person I was quoting and my gamesolving was building off of hers. In particular, she noted Gorkington's slot as suspicious far stronger than I did, with Nosferatu as town much stronger than I did.
This is not what I'd say is the backbone of why Ankamius is town, but it is a fairly solid point, is it not?
I am in fact backing Jingle up here on EspeciallyTheLies. Both on his ability to read her, and on the result of the read. I realize the statement of "trust me, they are town, their townreads on each other aren't suspect" doesn't mean much, so I'll be trying another angle when I get the chance.
As for Eddie and Gorkington as spewed town, obviously that's where I think you went wrong, OnTheMark, but it'll take me a little bit longer to explain those than most because it'll take me a while to put things in your terms, your logic, and show why you had the right idea but got it wrong in execution.
TAKE THREE. (SORRY.)
...Uh.
Let's try that again but with a fixed tag.
You don't have to ask every post especially not when I'm V/LA. Activity on my main doesn't suddenly make my V/LA go away. (Especially not when the activity isn't extensive.)
I can produce it, but not at the moment. It'll have to wait until...probably Memorial Day.
In the mean time, my efforts are best focused on preventing the autowin plan from becoming an auto-loss.
It's actually not that hard for him, off of his own reasoning and isoing me, to figure out my reasoning for you as obvtown; my reasoning is simply a logical extension of the points raised already.
^^^THIS ONE IS QUITE IMPORTANT FOR THOSE PAYING ATTENTION^^^
^^^My process here still holds; by the math, lynching Titus yesterday would have given us a guaranteed guilty. As we were aiming for a guilty (not an innocent), it was the optimal plan.^^^
This one's outside the spoiler as it's relevant to OnTheMark in particular.
If you don't believe my word.
You need look no further than this for the proof.
OnTheMark has an accurate townread on me.
Normally, that's a good thing.
This game that's literally the most disastrous possible outcome as by lynching me you vindicate OnTheMark's feelings.
Which have the core of the townbloc as pun.
Want my alignment confirmed? Cop me. It is much, much safer for the longevity of winning the game.
You might think that OnTheMark refusing to play along with you is borderline game throwing. It doesn't matter. I am just telling you the truth. You don't have to like it. But it is still the truth all the same. OnTheMark will not go along with you if you lynch me, because I WILL flip town and OnTheMark WILL feel vindicated for having been adamant I was town. The only way to stop that is to not let it happen. If my alignment cannot be trusted as town, cop me. Because YOU will be throwing the game away by lynching me. You'll blame it on him, you'll blame it on OnTheMark, you'll say it's him gamethrowing.
But it'll have been you. Because you know I'm telling the truth here, that what I describe is exactly what will happen. Don't throw the work gamesolving out the window by letting OnTheMark throw the gamesolving out the window. And that's why you need to talk to him today and any plan involving my lynch today is destined for a town failure.
I still am quite fond of that signature as it emphasizes precisely what I aim to bring to my games while letting players know precisely what my gimmick is.
And when Pun is a townflip, the game is still over but the pun have won. You'll just take gamedays (plural) to realize it.
Believe me I'd have been all too happy to die before today. But OnTheMark's hard-townread on me while having reads I otherwise am in full disagreement of is something I cannot afford to have. Even if OnTheMark's current read on me shifted to a punread, the damage is still done. I still flip town, and OnTheMark simply goes "I shouldn't have changed my read! I should have listened to what I originally said!" In fact, that's arguably even a worse outcome because it makes the likelihood of sticking to wrong reads that much higher than it'd already be.
I believe OnTheMark can be an amazing player sometimes, given the right environment. I also believe OnTheMark no matter how hard he may try to be otherwise can be an incredibly destructive player to the town given the wrong environment. I firmly believe that he can be amazing in this game in particular because he is close to being in the right environment. I also firmly believe that lynching me will throw him into the absolute wrong environment.
That is why I cannot be the lynch. Not because I'm town, but because of the consequences from me being town.
Yes which is why I wanted to lynch Titus yesterday. Titus's townflip would have ensured we investigated eddie. eddie would have been a pun result. We would thus have hit pun rather than town.
I wasn't quoting my iso.
I was quoting my pertinent points.
Which so happen to be the majority of my iso but maybe you should ask yourself why my points remain pertinent.
This is on you, my friend.
Because I gave you my warning.
It's not fearmongering.
It's experience.
I WILL be flipping town.
OnTheMark, upon my townflip, WILL go ballistic on you.
A ballistic OnTheMark WILL do actions you view as gamethrowing.
And as a consequence, town WILL lose from lynching me.
You say it's fearmongering, but it's not. It's reality. It's pure. simple. truth.
That is precisely what will happen.
And the consequences of what will happen are exactly what I say they are.
If it instills fear in you?
GOOD.
Because you can bet I'm afraid of it, and for good reason.
You apparently lack Mathblade experience.
I do not.
I know what I say will become reality because I have seen it become reality. Not once, not even twice. Multiple times, the exact pattern I outline happens. Get him in the wrong environment, and he'll cost the town the game. Lynching me is the ONE way to put him into the wrong environment. So lynching me is quite literally the ONE way to throw the win out the window and cost us the game.
Want my alignment known?
Cop me.
Because a lynch on me today will never, I repeat. NEVER. Lead to anything good.
And you can see the evidence not only in my marked words. But in OnTheMark's. He is literally telling you that upon my townflip, he will refuse to go along with your plan. Do you think that is an idle threat? An empty threat which has no conviction? It isn't. He can, and WILL, go through with it.
So like I said.
The fear is justified.
Sometimes, I really hate the game-relevant content rule as it forces me to provide content within a timeframe I should really not be providing content within. However, as it exists, forced skimming mode.
VOTE: jjh.
While this leaves eddie vs. Punreader unresolved, I actually believe jjh's lynch is the strongest bet for hitting pun.
Lynching eddie would resolve eddie vs. Punreader, but there is a chance albeit incredibly small that they are town. (I believe them to be pun, but I acknowledge my beliefs are not always right.) For jjh, there is no such chance. Lynching eddie gives us the best lynch/cop results overall in my opinion, but lynching jjh gives the highest chances of lynching pun today.
If the game got down to one pun left alive going into the night today, that would understandably give a large advantage. Overall, this was where I was starting to lean on my own; with a wagon there, it is strongly preferable.
As am I, which is one reason I feel we need the jjh lynch.
Gorkington had only one interaction I felt was indicative he might be town; the rest of his play was indicative of pun to me. Then, when you factor in jjh's play, it becomes evident he's pun. I am wholly confident jjh is pun because of a strong dissonance between the town-jjh I have encountered elsewhere and the jjh of this game. His pun flip would help to revitalize the game, as it'd give us two dead pun and a fair idea of interactions to then refine further.
I realize that this isn't game content so I will post again tonight after my current obligation ends, but this is a story too thematically appropriate to pass on:
Just today, I was absentmindedly driving. I was going 43 in a 35mph zone, and spotted a cop car. Most people would, rationally, slow down. I just owned it, maintaining my speed as the cop car pulled out behind me. I kept speeding as if nothing was wrong.
...The cop let me go.
No pulling over at all. I sped right in front of him, but he let me go as if he didn't notice or care.
I may be a real life pun player.
This has been jjh's continued presence in the game.
Continuing to do nothing.
Because we are letting him do nothing.
He will continue to do nothing until we no longer allow him to do nothing.
jjh is deliberately avoiding giving game content here.
He replaced in, so that indicated he had a desire to do something, but since coming in has done nothing. This is the hallmark of landing into a pun slot.
This is why eddie's vote on me was suspect for the record. It placed me as the lead wagon above jjh, ensuring that at deadline, I would be lynched over jjh.
You're asking about a scenario I find largely pointless to speculate about.
My assumption is jj/eddie.
That is my working punteam.
Any statement about hypothetical other teams diminishes from my focus. I believe jj/eddie is the solve. It's not only because I see that as the most likely team. It's not only because you are the two players I most strongly punread. It is also because I simply don't even see other teams as being viable.
If the team is not jj/eddie as is my working assumption, then I will cross the bridge of reevaluation when I come to it. Not a moment sooner. Entertaining another punteam at this point is pointless.
Since I had a genuine confusion with the prod rule, the mod is letting me stay in the game. I thought I'd start by delivering this.
Give me one second to write up why jj is pun here.
It won't take long, promise.
The reason for the jj lynch can be summed up by the following.
This is OnTheMark's iso. OnTheMark replaced in not too long before jj did.
This is Ankamius's iso. Ankamius replaced in not too long before OnTheMark did.
This is jjh's iso.
You may note an obvious different, but I ask for you to look at jjh's iso for a long time. Take as long as you want. Then, I ask you. Look at this description of it:
Look back at jjh's iso. Then this post, 2664. Then jjh's iso. Then back to 2664.
Compare them as many times as you'd like.
And then after having done so.
Answer me one question:
Is my 2664 an inaccurate description of jjh's contributions this game?
If it is indeed accurate, you have why jjh is pun here.
And yet in spite of that you've consistently failed to vote him.
This accusation has NO place in a game, LEAST of all from someone knowing my identity.
If you think otherwise?
Fuck off.
That is not something you accuse someone of.
I mean, if I were inclined to make that accusation I'd be pointing to literally all of eddie's spam, but I have standards; I'm not going to make that accusation even though he's a player who fits the description of "making apathy posts" better than I ever could. Because I don't believe in that sort of accusation ever having a place in a game.
What resistance? Jingle, who is the player that is most likely to have an accurate read on me this game and is saying I'm town? Ankamius, the person who is second most likely to have an accurate read on me this game, says I am town, and yet in spite of that is willing to vote me anyway? OnTheMark, who is...literally, just. OnTheMark? (This needs no explanation, really.) Nosferatu, who is quite willing to vote me and has done so multiple times in this game already?
In contrast, the resistance to lynching jjh actually is telling.
You apparently have a memory problem given as how that is not an accurate descriptor of the game especially given the "counterwagons" to me have often not had me on them.
I think you have a chronology problem given as how I am the counterwagon to jjh.
ESPECIALLYTHELIES
Your vote is unacceptable.
Vote jjh or realize you singlehandedly are gamethrowing tomorrow.
Perhaps if you isoed Jingle, Ankamius, and myself you would see our collective cases as all three of us have tackled why eddie is pun on numerous occasions from different angles. Shall I quote them all for you? (This would take time which I'm short on at the moment but I can get it within 6 hours if you ask.)
This tells me you're absolutely abysmal at VCA if you think this indicates anything other than there being dueling town wagons?
Look where Almost50 was.
Almost50 was staying off of both wagons.
Why was he off of both wagons?
Because he didn't have a punbuddy at risk of being lynched.
This is VCA 101.
IN FACT.
Let's take this one step further.
The Titus wagon is proven, aside from myself, to be all town, yes?
Okay.
So there was Punreader wagon equal to the Titus wagon.
Alright.
So who is the third pun and why are they not on Titus if I am the second pun?
It can't be Porkens.
You think it's not Jingle.
Is it Ankamius? Draynth(Now OnTheMark)?
Or was one of Nosferatu/Gorkington(Now jjh)/eddie bussing?
If you think a bus you should be all too happy to help me bus my 'punbuddies' given I am lynching jjh and would happily lynch eddie if that were viable.
If you think it is Ankamius you've got a lot of explaining to do.
If you think it's OnTheMark, then that still requires quite an amount of explanation.
How you get this so backwards so consistently I will never know.
Check your post history again.
"Recycles"?
I was the originator of it.
A little difficult when all the most pertinent content has been given already. (This is, notably, the reason why I am running afoul of the prod rule. When new content gives me nothing worth responding to, I won't respond. It takes about 36-48 hours on average for content worth responding to to crop up in a quantity worth responding to. Unfortunately, it takes me 12-24 hours past the content's origin date for me to actually respond, placing my posts in the 48-72 hour range.)
You want me to case jjh?
Did that.
You want me to case Gorkington?
Did that.
You want me to case eddie?
Done that multiple times.
You want me to lay out my POE on why all my copper-forged friend-reads are town?
Done that, too.
You want me to quote those posts to rehash them for you because you apparently weren't paying attention to them the first time?
I mean, I guess I can do that, but it seems like wasted effort.
To ACTUALLY recycle a comment, and this is me genuinely reusing content posted by another:
As Ankamius said,
These? These are my sentiments. And I will recycle them all I like.
I've already told you why jjh/eddie is the solve.
Ankamius has already told you why jjh/eddie is the solve.
Jingle has already told you why eddie is likely pun and why he supports the jjh lynch.
You ask for more than that?
There's nothing more to give because literally all of it has already been given.
Why don't you try reading it because you clearly haven't given as how you've not responded to literally any of it.
994, 1750, 1759 (doesn't object but says not preference), 1782, 1788, and 1801 are eddie's only interactions with Almost50. Literally none of them are pushing him in a way indicating eddie was punhunting with the pushes. The interactions, the dialog, is incredibly shallow and empty; the content accomplished nothing, had no followthrough, and was content for the sake of content. In fact, instead of going for the Almost50 lynch, he opts to vote me.
876, 1576, and 1763 are the closest you get to content, and he does nothing with those.
On Almost50's end, 1004 is content, but it leads nowhere. He doesn't give followthrough or have this question reflected in his stances. 1581, 1777, 1787, 1792, 1794, 1796, and 1797 are all interacting with eddie but nothing in those interactions is meaningful. They are talking to one another, but there is no manipulation from Almost50's end of the conversation. Quite the opposite, it's textbook pun theater.
As for Gorkington, did you check out his vote?
This is the definition of a pun bussing vote. Prior mentions are 788 (opts for Nosferatu instead with eventual lynch Porkens as alternative), 1014 (the same type of fairly empty interaction present elsewhere), 1614 (where he is soft-defending Almost50), 1615 (further justification of not voting Almost50), and 1625 which is a hard-defense of Almost50.
Gorkington didn't push Almost50 as pun; quite the opposite in fact. Him joining the wagon was transparently pun bussing.
This VC shows nigh-proven dueling town wagons. If both lynches were on town, pun didn't care where they were. Thus, it can be reasonably inferred you do not have a punbloc. From this, you can also reason that it is a fair assumption you're looking generally at one pun on each wagon and one pun off. Almost50 as the pun on Nosferatu, eddie as the pun on Titus, Gorkington as the pun not voting.
If by everyone you mean the least-town players in the game plus you, then sure.
You've been asked multiple times to address the numerous content where townreads on me have been explained; you've ignored it. You've been asked multiple times to address the numerous content where punreads on jjh and eddie have been explained; you've ignored it. And after having ignored those quite reasonable requests, you wonder why OnTheMark finds you suspicious. In a perfect world, your actions would come from pun because what you are doing is most decidedly furthering the pun wincon by refusing to engage others and pretending you're the one not being engaged. Sadly, because we don't live in a perfect world, we know that you're town thanks to the cop results, and OnTheMark is just doing OTM type playing-against-the-odds, something you should know all too well is not a puntell from him.
On the contrary! If you contributed content before your lynch I'd consider it town.
Deliberately choosing not to is playing to a pun wincon because choosing not to give that content allows for less associatives to be formed, less information available to clear town players and condemn pun players. That is one of the reasons why I am convinced you are pun; if you were town, at death's door, you'd be working harder to give content, but as pun, you have incentive NOT to.
You are choosing not to.
So you are playing to a pun wincon and being treated appropriately so.
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