Mafia 64: The New "C9" - Game over!

[Yosarian2]

I never said the first was evidence of you being scum. Of course it's not, inherently.

Basically, if I was right earlier that either you or billy twilight is scum, then the question really is, which looks more buslike; your attacks on RB yesterday, or Billy's attacks on Yogurt/RB for much of the game? That's what I've been trying to figure out. Attacking a scum is a point in your favor, but everyone has points in their favor now.

As for the third point, I wouldn't say he CAN"T be scum, but I think that that series of events (MBL allows a no-lynch to happen, then the scum kills simoon) dosn't make a lot of sense from a "MBL is scum" point of view. If he was scum, he'd obv. have been better off lynching Simoon then nightkilling someone else then by no-lynching then killing Simoon, no matter if Simoon was a SK or not. So basically, either he made a mistake as pro-town by no-lynching, or he made an even bigger mistake as scum by no-lynching, and I think the scum possibility there is somewhat less likely; I can see MBLtown making that mistake in that situation more easily then MBLscum.

And honestly, I just get kind of a bad feeling about you today. It seems like you're unwilling to re-consider your MBL position at all, or even to understand why someone might disagree with you, to the point where you're acting like disagreeing with you over this is some kind of scum-tell in and of itself. The whole vibe I'm getting from you today just feels like you're likely to be scum who's committed himself to a wagon that he can't afford to see fail, not like town who's considering all the possibilities.

Besides, your theory on me here, which is basically "Yos is probably scum who's hoping to get me lynched today and MBL lynched tommorow", just feels really scummy. First of all, it feels like you're trying to intimidate me and others to get on the wagon by implying that disagreeing with you here is itself a scumtell. You certanly seemed to think I was pro-town back when I was agreeing with you, after all. Secondly, it dosn't make a lot of sense in and of itself; if I was hoping to get MBL lynched tommorow, then why am I going after his most venement attacker today? If I get you lynched today, that actually dramatically lowers the odds of MBL being lynched tommorow. And finally, it kind of illustrates my point, the main reason I asked you that question, that from my point of view, by process of elimination, you're almost certanly scum, there really is almost no one else left who's likely scum at this point.

[The Fonz]

I never said the first was evidence of you being scum. Of course it's not, inherently.

Of course. But without that, your evidence is:

1. Because MBL was not hammered, one of MBL, yourself, and me has to be scum.
2. Because MBL did not hammer Simenon given the opportunity, he's unlikely scum.
3. Process of elimination makes me scum.

Except of course, I' m not scum, so one or two has to be flawed.

If you're using 1) as a premise, this pretty much commits you to voting MBL tomorrow, n'est-ce pas?

Basically, if I was right earlier that either you or billy twilight is scum, then the question really is, which looks more buslike; your attacks on RB yesterday, or Billy's attacks on Yogurt/RB for much of the game? That's what I've been trying to figure out. Attacking a scum is a point in your favor, but everyone has points in their favor now.

I'm simply not going to try to convince you BillyTwilight is scum, because I don't believe that he is.

As for the third point, I wouldn't say he CAN"T be scum, but I think that that series of events (MBL allows a no-lynch to happen, then the scum kills simoon) dosn't make a lot of sense from a "MBL is scum" point of view. If he was scum, he'd obv. have been better off lynching Simoon then nightkilling someone else then by no-lynching then killing Simoon, no matter if Simoon was a SK or not.

Again, I just flat-out disagree with this assessment. Lynch RB is obviously suboptimal for MBL-GF. Lynching Sim is what he'd do if WIFOM didn't exist, ie, the optimal play if people's motivations came into play.

But answer me this:

Do you honestly not feel that choosing to vote with the goon to lynch someone else, having listed the possibilities as 1. Lynch Yos 2. Lynch RB 3. No-lynch is leaning on the 'dead giveaway' side? Yes, this does assume RB gets lynched today after a sim lynch. I wouldn't have countenanced lynching anyone else: you have been representing yourself as pretty solidly anti-RB. Billy has been pushing RB all game, with the exception of the rather curious incident of the unvote yesterday. Now, probably MBL kills off one of those, and hopes CTD goes for... well, you, I suppose.

No-lynching has a fairly obvious advantage over lynching RB, since in both cases, he could present the choice as suboptimal for a RB partner, but he can still make the argument 'Well why wouldn't I have voted Sim?'

And neither you nor MBL has presented a reasonable explanation of his no-lynch causing behaviour. 'I didn't want to vote with Yos-' fine, except that the Yos-driven wagon was not the only one available. Frankly, I'd have expected a

town

MBL to be more likely to vote Simenon than allow the no-lynch, given his at the time stated belief that we had to lynch someone, and his subsequent claim that his doing something that contradicted what he was saying - at the exact same moment he was saying it - because of suspicion of you.

So to my mind, MBL's actions don't make sense from any perspective other than scum trying to pull wifom games.

And honestly, I just get kind of a bad feeling about you today. It seems like you're unwilling to re-consider your MBL position at all, or even to understand why someone might disagree with you, to the point where you're acting like disagreeing with you over this is some kind of scum-tell in and of itself. The whole vibe I'm getting from you today just feels like you're likely to be scum who's committed himself to a wagon that he can't afford to see fail, not like town who's considering all the possibilities.

Right back at you now. I've got a horrible feeling about your play today. Thok comes in, and suspects me, and makes an argument in defence your number one suspect MBL, which there's no way you couldn't have seen yourself, and all of a sudden it's a compelling argument for his innocence, and process of elimination means I

have

to be scum.

And, also, the notion that I'm not considering other possibilities- I just stated a fairly strong suspicion of you. I find it deeply scummy that you earlier claimed 'scum can't rule people out' now you're basically suggesting it's scummy of me to not suspect BT, and to have reduced my suspicion of Thok in reaction to events.

Yes, MBL remains my number one scum candidate. I believe that the case on him is the most compelling, and only in the situation where we were facing a deadline lynch and his death was not a possibility would I vote elsewhere.

Besides, your theory on me here, which is basically "Yos is probably scum who's hoping to get me lynched today and MBL lynched tommorow", just feels really scummy. First of all, it feels like you're trying to intimidate me and others to get on the wagon by implying that disagreeing with you here is itself a scumtell.

Yes, because my attacking you, and telling you that you are my number two suspect is SO the best way to get you to vote with me. Really.

You certanly seemed to think I was pro-town back when I was agreeing with you, after all. Secondly, it dosn't make a lot of sense in and of itself; if I was hoping to get MBL lynched tommorow, then why am I going after his most venement attacker today?

His most vehement attacker coming up town looks rather bad for MBL, don't you think?

If I get you lynched today, that actually dramatically lowers the odds of MBL being lynched tommorow. And finally, it kind of illustrates my point, the main reason I asked you that question, that from my point of view, by process of elimination, you're almost certanly scum, there really is almost no one else left who's likely scum at this point.

You've got to get SOMEONE lynched if you're the GF, Yos. And a Yos-MBL-Thok mislynch of me probably leaves you in a better position than a Fonz-BT-Yos driven mislynch of MBL. It's at least no worse.

[The Fonz]

Massprod?

[petroleumjelly]

Prods sent to all but The Fonz. Considering a deadline.

[Thok]

Got poked. Tomorrow/Friday suck for me timewise and I really need to get some sleep today.

I'm confused why The Fonz doesn't think Yos leading what would be a Yos/BT/Fonz lead lynch of MBL would be better play for scumYos then the whole flip-flop issue. HyposcumYos was likely already winning this game before the flip-flop on MBL. (Seriously, assume Yos doesn't flip-flop. Of the three nightkills for hypoYosscum after an MBLtown lynch, I'd favor Yosscum getting somebody else lynched in at least two of them [the ones where I'm not killed].) If Yos is scum, I don't see why he'd need to make waves this late in the game.

[Yosarian2]

And neither you nor MBL has presented a reasonable explanation of his no-lynch causing behaviour.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It feels like you're trying to link me to MBL, which is clearly impossible, or else that you're trying to attack me in order to undermine my defense of MBL and set me up for a mislynch tommorow after you get MBL mislynched today. Otherwise, I just don't see how you could logically be attacking me like this and still keeping your vote on MBL. Your play just dosn't feel pro-town at all here.

And obveously, it's not my job to explain MBL's actions. I'm not sure why you would expect me to "present an explination" for his behavior.

Right back at you now. I've got a horrible feeling about your play today. Thok comes in, and suspects me, and makes an argument in defence your number one suspect MBL, which there's no way you couldn't have seen yourself, and all of a sudden it's a compelling argument for his innocence, and process of elimination means I

have

to be scum.

Well, yeah. Thok's argument was quite strong. And if MBL is town, then yeah, you pretty much have to be scum.

And, also, the notion that I'm not considering other possibilities- I just stated a fairly strong suspicion of you. I find it deeply scummy that you earlier claimed 'scum can't rule people out' now you're basically suggesting it's scummy of me to not suspect BT, and to have reduced my suspicion of Thok in reaction to events.

No, it's not scummy of you to not supect BT. My point is that you seem to agree with me that neither Thok or BT are likely to be scum; or at least you're unable to make a case against either of them. So, since I know I'm town, from my point of view that makes it either you or MBL, and I don't think it's MBL. So that's why I'm voting for you. Process of elimination for the win.

Yes, because my attacking you, and telling you that you are my number two suspect is SO the best way to get you to vote with me. Really.

You're not trying to get me to vote MBL here. Assuming you're scum, you're pretty clearly trying to get Thok to vote MBL today, then kill off someone tonight and try to get me lynched tommorow. That's what your gameplan looks like to me, anyway.

[The Fonz]

Got poked. Tomorrow/Friday suck for me timewise and I really need to get some sleep today.

I'm confused why The Fonz doesn't think Yos leading what would be a Yos/BT/Fonz lead lynch of MBL would be better play for scumYos then the whole flip-flop issue. HyposcumYos was likely already winning this game before the flip-flop on MBL. (Seriously, assume Yos doesn't flip-flop. Of the three nightkills for hypoYosscum after an MBLtown lynch, I'd favor Yosscum getting somebody else lynched in at least two of them [the ones where I'm not killed].) If Yos is scum, I don't see why he'd need to make waves this late in the game.

I'd have difficulty seeing how Yos would get you lynched over himself. I haven't seen any indication you'd vote for BT rather than Yos. Plus, the very substance of the argument chosen sets up the Fonz-then-MBL double mislynch, if Yos is scum.

And neither you nor MBL has presented a reasonable explanation of his no-lynch causing behaviour.

This is the kind of thing I'm talking about. It feels like you're trying to link me to MBL, which is clearly impossible, or else that you're trying to attack me in order to undermine my defense of MBL and set me up for a mislynch tommorow after you get MBL mislynched today. Otherwise, I just don't see how you could logically be attacking me like this and still keeping your vote on MBL. Your play just dosn't feel pro-town at all here.

If you are supporting a lynch on process of elimination, you have to be pretty sure the person you're eliminating is town, yes? There being no reasonable pro-town explanation for his actions is a fairly substantial argument against him being town.

I'm not trying to link you to MBL- I'm trying to comprehend why you, as rational town, would clear a horrendously scummy player and vote for a non-scummy one instead. Your behaviour just doesn't make sense to me, and is hugely frustrating. Since you're not acting how I'd expect townYos to act, the possibilities are either that you're playing well below your usual level just because you happen to have gotten a horrendous read, or you're scum. It would be remiss of me to dismiss either possibility.

And obveously, it's not my job to explain MBL's actions. I'm not sure why you would expect me to "present an explination" for his behavior.

Well, yeah. Thok's argument was quite strong. And if MBL is town, then yeah, you pretty much have to be scum.

Well, from your claimed perspective, yes. I don't think Thok's argument was particularly strong- as BT noted, it was basically the exact same argument that MBL himself was presenting.

And, also, the notion that I'm not considering other possibilities- I just stated a fairly strong suspicion of you. I find it deeply scummy that you earlier claimed 'scum can't rule people out' now you're basically suggesting it's scummy of me to not suspect BT, and to have reduced my suspicion of Thok in reaction to events.

No, it's not scummy of you to not supect BT. My point is that you seem to agree with me that neither Thok or BT are likely to be scum; or at least you're unable to make a case against either of them. So, since I know I'm town, from my point of view that makes it either you or MBL, and I don't think it's MBL. So that's why I'm voting for you. Process of elimination for the win.

That's fine. I'm certain it's MBL or you, and I think it's probably him. But your 'lalala I can't hear you' argument in favour of MBL being town doesn't help your cause. Any argument I bring, your response is 'I don't believe MBL would have allowed no-lynch as scum.' But he defended the known scum and I attacked him? "Yeah, but I don't believe MBL would have allowed the no-lynch as scum.' He has no reason to act like that as TOWN either. Scum allows the wifom possibilities. "Yeah, but I don't believe MBL would have acted like that as scum."

Yes, because my attacking you, and telling you that you are my number two suspect is SO the best way to get you to vote with me. Really.

You're not trying to get me to vote MBL here. Assuming you're scum, you're pretty clearly trying to get Thok to vote MBL today, then kill off someone tonight and try to get me lynched tommorow. That's what your gameplan looks like to me, anyway.

Actually, I am trying to get you to vote MBL, with the caveat that it's hugely frustrating and possibly doomed from the start. I'm just not willing to shift my conviction that MBL is scummiest, you second and daylight third in order to achieve it.

My lynch priority certainly

is

MBL then you: you're my top two suspects. I believe this would guarantee a town win.

[Thok]

I'd have difficulty seeing how Yos would get you lynched over himself. I haven't seen any indication you'd vote for BT rather than Yos. Plus, the very substance of the argument chosen sets up the Fonz-then-MBL double mislynch, if Yos is scum.

Huh? BillyTwilight fairly clearly indicated I was his second most likely scum candidate (after MBL) when I asked him to list who he thought was protown, and you also indicated stuff that indicated a preference to lynch me over Yos given the choice (your 2994 for example suggests a lack of interest in a Yos lynch.)

Remember, if Yos doesn't flip-flop then MBL's likely lynched by BillyTwilight 3090 (or is lynched not much longer after that post: in any case it's not hard for hyposcumYos to anticipate an MBL lynch occuring relatively soon in that scenario.) The last 4 pages or so which make me look better and Yos look worse wouldn't exist in that scenario.

And that's ignoring the fact that I've been implying that I've thought Yos is protown since replacing in: hyposcumYos has reason to believe that he can talk me into making a mistake at lynch or lose also.

[The Fonz]

Ironically, all your defence of Yos does is confirm my impression that you're town, and therefore that Yos or MBL must be the scum. You're narrowing your options, and there seems little reason not to put me out of my misery now if you are indeed scum- I don't see how you lose an endgame in that scenario.

A question for Yos: what happens once you've eliminated everyone, and the person you're left with comes up town?

[Yosarian2]

Well, if that happenes, then I've obveously made a mistake somewhere. I was right yesterday, though; if you remember, a big part of the reason I thought Rougeban was scum was similar logic, using process of elimination to figure out who the goon had to be.

[MrBuddyLee]

I'm not trying to link you to MBL- I'm trying to comprehend why you, as rational town, would clear a

horrendously scummy player

and vote for a non-scummy one instead.

*waves to Fonz*

Helloooooooo. I'm still here. And I'm not going to let that blatant misrepresentation go unnoticed.

I played the entire game, something like ten months long now, hunting scum and generally grilling people about their situations. I was wrong on Yogurt Bandit and right on a lot of other stuff. On the whole, I think it was a pretty solid game I played, and to have you call me "horrendously scummy" strikes me in three ways.

1) It's a bit obnoxious, but that's fine.
2) It seems pretty far out there. The kind of careless, offhand statement scum might make as they inflate their imaginary case in their mind over time.
3) It doesn't really seem to jive with the overall reality of the game. You find my play horrendously scummy D1-D5? Or just one moment in time where I was in a foreign country on a client site surrounded by weird Dutch people one morning, illicitly accessed Mafiascum, and made a semi-rational stubborn set of lynch proposals and didn't follow through on them?

Sorry, but "horrendously scummy" is just off the wall. I am tempted to meta you to see if you make similarly bizarre statements as town.

[MrBuddyLee]

And yet, you're willing to believe

all MBL's distortions, all his hypocrisies

I do hold against you the fact that you've been

scummy as hell

.

Yeah, I thought I recalled more of that bunk.

Your case is essentially "you, MBL, took one action at the end of day yesterday that makes you HORRENDOUSLY SCUMMY(tm)". And "the rest of your play can be dismissed as busing some scumpartners and protecting others".

Except wait, you've laid the groundwork for tomorrow. You don't think "horrendously scummy" is the only possible reason for my "bad play":

Someone has to be playing suboptimally here.

RB, unless Yos is the GF
MBL, if anyone but MBL is.

MBL comes up town tomorrow, you write it off as crappy play by MBLtown in that

one instance

at the end of day yesterday.

Then you go to work on Yos for what RB did to protect him.

Transparent.

If you really wanted to assess my play, maybe you'd read the entire game for texture. I think that might make your eyes bleed though, so only do that if you've got some really good music and a carafe of stiff drink. I would love for you to point out anything I did before end-of-day yesterday that qualifies as "horrendously scummy".

Better yet, fess up and let's get this over with.

[BillyTwilight]

Got my prod. I'll read through since my last post and get some thoughts up tonight or tomorrow.

[BillyTwilight]

Sorry guys; the computer at work crashed on Friday, and it's the only net access I have during the day, and I haven't had a chance to post from home. The current plan is to get the data recovered from it tomorrow and get it up and running, after which I will be able to post. Too tired to do any reading now.

[BillyTwilight]

Update: Computer at work is still down, so I'm posting from a student computer lab today. Hopefully my boss can get the lab computer up and running again before the end of the week.


MBL: I asked you to respond to my points in post #3106. You commented on 5 of them. Please respond to the remaining four before I address your response.

Thok: When I last checked the game we were having an argument about TCS's "gambit". You had the last word in post #3142. Tell me, if a player had strongly hinted at having a power role, had asked specifically to be the hammer, and had made it obvious that there was a concrete, not strategical, reason for making the statements they were making, how would you respond to them saying, after hammering, "I wanted to draw reactions from people in order to get scum to overreact. In case I die tonight, these are the people who reacted to my request in a way that looked scummy..."? I know I would have tried to get him lynched ASAP, especially considering that the game was 100 pages long already by that point. I've seen people do that kind of thing in newbie games, or in the early stages of larger games, but do you really see someone making that play after a game is so well established? And you really wouldn't have been EXTREMELY suspicious of TCS had he pulled that kind of stunt after hammering? I still stand by my read that TCS play makes MUCH more sense as town than as the GF.

I generally disagree with pretty much Yos's entire take on the game right now. I only briefly skimmed it, but I don't like the vote for Fonz and I don't like his stance on MBL. Yos, after all of your early day sureness that MBL was scum, you basically are clearing him because you don't know why he would as scum not vote-to-lynch Simenon, but then would night kill him. Answer me, why do you think that Simenon did not vote-to-lynch RB, but then night killed him? I realize they are two different people, but your basically excusing MBL's behavior from the end of day 1 on the argument that scum won't do what MBL did, when we have an example in this very game of scum doing exactly what you don't think scum would have done.

I have more I want to comment on, but I'll wait for the rest of MBL's response before giving a longer post. I have to quickly post in my only other active game and then get back over to my lab now, anyway.

[Thok]

@Billy: I didn't think it was obvious that TCS was "clearly hinting at a power role," but rather that he was merely planning to do something weird. Looking over his posts, only TCS's 2653 sort of makes that line of thought clear. And again, this is essentially your only argument against TCSscum.

Similarly, I don't believe it's obvious that if TCS didn't make a role related comment when he hammered then he would be run up. You've claimed that, but I don't necessarily consider that a pro-town sign. (Also, if he was hinting at a protown power role, nothing really made sense at a time: any doctor should have protected Manaspryte, any mason knew that Glork was the likely kill, and anybody else was essentially impossible.)

Given that context, Yos's 2662 asking for people to stop talking about the topic should be seen as a protown sign.

I'm also curious why you think this line of discussion is likely to help us catch scum. Given your vote, I feel like your highest priority should be either convincing us of the merits of an MBL lynch or reassessing your own views of that lynch.

Also, there's a fairly big difference between MBL and Simenon in that MBL was fairly active before the deadline, while Simenon was not. Simenon literally made only one post in the three weeks before the deadline, and that one was a response to the prod just before deadline.

The whole Yos2 is scummy for misreading the game argument doesn't do much for me right now. If you think MBL is the last scum, the right point of view is to try and convince others that you are right, not attack others as scum for misanalyzing data. And if you don't think MBL is scum, why are you voting for him?

Has anybody looked over beanbagboy's thoughts on MBL early on? In particular, anybody want to try to explain why scum would suggest their godfather is an SK day 1 in an open game that potentially has a vig? MOS also did the vote MBL over FOS: YB thing on replacing in (from scum that's often town voted and scum attacked), and attacked MBL with at least one completely flawed reason (claiming MBL was lurking, when he wasn't.)

It occurs to me that BT's rant against AE's lurker hunting in post 647 is really anti-town in context. First of all, AE was looking at other people other than just lurkersat that time [she was repeatedly voting YB, who wasn't really lurking at that time], and also at that point a significan portion of the people she was putting pressure on were scum (she was suspicious of both beanbagboy and YB.)

[Thok]

And for the record, right now my scum list looks like

1. BillyTwilight
2. MBL
3. The Fonz
4. Yosarian2

Strangely, The Fonz's recent play has made me lower his score, mainly because it seems fairly consistent with how I think protown The Fonz would play, and MBL's play has been bugging me some.

[BillyTwilight]

@Billy: I didn't think it was obvious that TCS was "clearly hinting at a power role," but rather that he was merely planning to do something weird. Looking over his posts, only TCS's 2653 sort of makes that line of thought clear. And again, this is essentially your only argument against TCSscum.

This is rubbish. You have to be stretching to interpret his play as anything other than a role-related play. He blatantly talks about not giving scum any more information about who to NK than they already have. He talks about the rest of the town understanding what he was doing when he hammered. Everything TCS said, including the underlying tone of frustration in his posts, points to making a major revelation when he hammered. You honestly think after all of that build up he would have turned around and said "These people acted suspicious after I asked to hammer, if I die tonight, look at them tomorrow." You consider that safe, logical play for TCS=scum? Especially considering he was investigated innocent at the time and could have simply played it cool and waited till later to make any kind of scum-gambit he thought appropriate? Bullshit.

Similarly, I don't believe it's obvious that if TCS didn't make a role related comment when he hammered then he would be run up. You've claimed that, but I don't necessarily consider that a pro-town sign. (Also, if he was hinting at a protown power role, nothing really made sense at a time: any doctor should have protected Manaspryte, any mason knew that Glork was the likely kill, and anybody else was essentially impossible.)

What is your point? This is the underlying reason why there was a big reaction to TCS's play during that time. Again, the reaction of other players when he made that statement should be highly indicative to you that, regardless of what you think, players in the game were expecting something major from TCS, not a lame scum trap that you might use day 1 in a newbie game. Just furthers the point that a lame ending to TCS's gambit would have gone a long way to getting him lynched the following day.

Given that context, Yos's 2662 asking for people to stop talking about the topic should be seen as a protown sign.

I don't follow what you mean here. Please elaborate. I don't think anyone would say that #2662 is a scumtell, so I don't understand why you are even mentioning it.

I'm also curious why you think this line of discussion is likely to help us catch scum. Given your vote, I feel like your highest priority should be either convincing us of the merits of an MBL lynch or reassessing your own views of that lynch.

Because right now the only other person being seriously questioned by players in the game is The Fonz. I'm trying to convince everyone else that lynching Fonzy is a bad idea. Mislynching town right now would not be the best thing for us, do you think? I don't understand how arguing to avoid mislynching town should be construed as a scummy.

Also, there's a fairly big difference between MBL and Simenon in that MBL was fairly active before the deadline, while Simenon was not. Simenon literally made only one post in the three weeks before the deadline, and that one was a response to the prod just before deadline.

Perhaps. Doesn't change the fact that he was voting for Yos when he could have been voting for RB. Your argument here would be much more reasonable if Simenon wasn't around to make the NK. Night only lasted 3 days, so he was active enough at that point to decide to kill RB. I HIGHLY doubt that he would have been ready and willing to kill RB in the night phase, and not ready to move his vote to RB a few days before when he posted a day before deadline. The point is that I believe his vote placement and night kill choice were intentional. He didn't have an epiphany during the night phase and decide to kill RB. I'm merely providing an example where scum could have voted to lynch someone and didn't, then night killed them, something that Yos doesn't think scum would do.

The whole Yos2 is scummy for misreading the game argument doesn't do much for me right now. If you think MBL is the last scum, the right point of view is to try and convince others that you are right, not attack others as scum for misanalyzing data. And if you don't think MBL is scum, why are you voting for him?

Show me where I called Yos scummy, please. I disagree with him, and his opinions about the game so far. See post #3139, my only real analysis of Yos's play. I come to the conclusion that I don't see him as being a very likely GF, but I don't think his contribution is helping. I basically state the same thing in post #3189. Never do I call him scummy. I disagree entirely with his opinion on the game right now. I think Fonz is the worst lynch we could have today, and I think MBL is scum. Yos thinks the opposite, and I'm trying to show him that he's wrong.

Has anybody looked over beanbagboy's thoughts on MBL early on? In particular, anybody want to try to explain why scum would suggest their godfather is an SK day 1 in an open game that potentially has a vig? MOS also did the vote MBL over FOS: YB thing on replacing in (from scum that's often town voted and scum attacked), and attacked MBL with at least one completely flawed reason (claiming MBL was lurking, when he wasn't.)

It occurs to me that BT's rant against AE's lurker hunting in post 647 is really anti-town in context. First of all, AE was looking at other people other than just lurkersat that time [she was repeatedly voting YB, who wasn't really lurking at that time], and also at that point a significan portion of the people she was putting pressure on were scum (she was suspicious of both beanbagboy and YB.)

Shrug. I think lurker-hunting is a pointless endeavor that more often lets scum get an advantage than helps town lynch scum. I've seen scum start lurker hunts on multiple occasions. Furthermore, I stated what I believed (and still believe) to be true, that lurker hunting is bad for the town and very often a scum-tactic. The entire conversation that stemmed from that was theoretical in nature and pushed just as much by Yos and other players as it was by me. I consider calling my statement about AE a "rant" mischaracterization. My entire original statment to AE was "I hate lurker hunting. AE, that puts you one down in my book, real fast... You've posted like crazy since you came in. I've not seen anything in your posts that I don't like, really, but fyi, lurker hunting makes me angry. Let the mod handle it, ask for a prod, etc, but lurker hunting sucks, and it's something that scum love to do." How do you characterize that as a rant, especially considering it made up a minor part of that post?

I still think MBL's scum. I am trying to convince you or Yos that MBL is scum. I'm waiting for MBL to respond fully to my posts against him before furthering what I think about his play. I also think that Fonz is not scum, and for you to call into question me trying to keep us from mislynching is ridiculous. To shut my mouth and let him hang

would

be scummy, don't you think?

[Thok]

The whole TCS thing is becoming a distraction, IMHO. Looking over your posts, it's clear what your analysis of it was at the time, and that it's consistent with your comments (except for the whole "you would run him up if he did something different": you seemed to believe that the people who were attacking TCS for this were likely scum.) I still think it's a stretch to call it an obviously protown sign (at least two pro-town people were voting TCS over that incident), but I'm willing to accept that you thought it was an obvious protown sign.

Given that context, Yos's 2662 asking for people to stop talking about the topic should be seen as a protown sign.

I don't follow what you mean here. Please elaborate. I don't think anyone would say that #2662 is a scumtell, so I don't understand why you are even mentioning it.

I'm mentioning it as further evidence that Yos2 is protown, duh. (And which I think is important because I feel like a Yos2 mislynch is being setup for tomorrow.) If Yos2's scum, there's no reason for him to try to keep discussion of TCS's gambit from happening, especially if he thinks it means that TCS might be forced to reveal a role. To be fair, I should count your 2636 in the same manner as a protown sign.

I'm also curious why you think this line of discussion is likely to help us catch scum. Given your vote, I feel like your highest priority should be either convincing us of the merits of an MBL lynch or reassessing your own views of that lynch.

Because right now the only other person being seriously questioned by players in the game is The Fonz. I'm trying to convince everyone else that lynching Fonzy is a bad idea. Mislynching town right now would not be the best thing for us, do you think? I don't understand how arguing to avoid mislynching town should be construed as a scummy.

Then why don't you suggest other reasons for The Fonz to be considered protown other than relying on a single gambit made by TCS? I don't think defending The Fonz is scummy. I do think basically only using one piece of evidence to defend him that may not be accurately interpretted is scummy. It may be a protown sign for The Fonz, but I'm not convinced it should be the only event we should assess him on. At best that line of reasoning is sloppy, IMHO.

Also, there's a fairly big difference between MBL and Simenon in that MBL was fairly active before the deadline, while Simenon was not. Simenon literally made only one post in the three weeks before the deadline, and that one was a response to the prod just before deadline.

Perhaps. Doesn't change the fact that he was voting for Yos when he could have been voting for RB. Your argument here would be much more reasonable if Simenon wasn't around to make the NK. Night only lasted 3 days, so he was active enough at that point to decide to kill RB. I HIGHLY doubt that he would have been ready and willing to kill RB in the night phase, and not ready to move his vote to RB a few days before when he posted a day before deadline. The point is that I believe his vote placement and night kill choice were intentional. He didn't have an epiphany during the night phase and decide to kill RB. I'm merely providing an example where scum could have voted to lynch someone and didn't, then night killed them, something that Yos doesn't think scum would do.

It takes much less effort to send in a night kill then to try to fake rereading the game and setting up an argument justifying a change in a vote that doesn't really fit your previous comments. Simenon would also have the extra three days to submit a nightkill.

The whole Yos2 is scummy for misreading the game argument doesn't do much for me right now. If you think MBL is the last scum, the right point of view is to try and convince others that you are right, not attack others as scum for misanalyzing data. And if you don't think MBL is scum, why are you voting for him?

Show me where I called Yos scummy, please. I disagree with him, and his opinions about the game so far. See post #3139, my only real analysis of Yos's play. I come to the conclusion that I don't see him as being a very likely GF, but I don't think his contribution is helping. I basically state the same thing in post #3189. Never do I call him scummy. I disagree entirely with his opinion on the game right now. I think Fonz is the worst lynch we could have today, and I think MBL is scum. Yos thinks the opposite, and I'm trying to show him that he's wrong.

Words like "I don't like" that you put in your 3189 generally imply you find somebody scummy or that you're trying to suggest somebody is scummy. Similarly the whole "I don't think Yos is scum, but I find his play doesn't make sense" comments and the whole "I think Yos is trying to skate through the day" comments in 3139 are very weasally; while you don't say that you think Yos is scummy, you certainly imply that you are open to the possibility to a Yos2 lynch. If you disagree with his opinion, try to present arguments to change Yos2's mind/try to counter our arguments; don't take potshots at a player you think is protown.

Has anybody looked over beanbagboy's thoughts on MBL early on? In particular, anybody want to try to explain why scum would suggest their godfather is an SK day 1 in an open game that potentially has a vig? MOS also did the vote MBL over FOS: YB thing on replacing in (from scum that's often town voted and scum attacked), and attacked MBL with at least one completely flawed reason (claiming MBL was lurking, when he wasn't.)

It occurs to me that BT's rant against AE's lurker hunting in post 647 is really anti-town in context. First of all, AE was looking at other people other than just lurkersat that time [she was repeatedly voting YB, who wasn't really lurking at that time], and also at that point a significan portion of the people she was putting pressure on were scum (she was suspicious of both beanbagboy and YB.)

Shrug. I think lurker-hunting is a pointless endeavor that more often lets scum get an advantage than helps town lynch scum. I've seen scum start lurker hunts on multiple occasions. Furthermore, I stated what I believed (and still believe) to be true, that lurker hunting is bad for the town and very often a scum-tactic. The entire conversation that stemmed from that was theoretical in nature and pushed just as much by Yos and other players as it was by me. I consider calling my statement about AE a "rant" mischaracterization. My entire original statment to AE was "I hate lurker hunting. AE, that puts you one down in my book, real fast... You've posted like crazy since you came in. I've not seen anything in your posts that I don't like, really, but fyi, lurker hunting makes me angry. Let the mod handle it, ask for a prod, etc, but lurker hunting sucks, and it's something that scum love to do." How do you characterize that as a rant, especially considering it made up a minor part of that post?

I use rant more generically than others. But, my point was that you brought that up as a topic of conversation when addressing her at a point where scum might need to try to cast doubt on AE's opinions.

I still think MBL's scum. I am trying to convince you or Yos that MBL is scum. I'm waiting for MBL to respond fully to my posts against him before furthering what I think about his play. I also think that Fonz is not scum, and for you to call into question me trying to keep us from mislynching is ridiculous. To shut my mouth and let him hang

would

be scummy, don't you think?

I'm not calling you in question for trying to keep the Fonz from being lynched. I'm calling you in question for very heavily leaning on a single piece of evidence, that I'm not convinced should be the sole deciding factor of a person's alignment (which makes me wonder if you already had an idea of TCS's alignment and chose to defend him for that reason.) I'm also calling you in question for not trying to bring up additional arguments that would help people change their minds.

[MrBuddyLee]

Posting entirely from gut and memory:

If Thok is scum he's a fucking virtuoso. MAaaaybe revisit him tomorrow, but I really don't think so. I got massively town vibes from the two players who came before him, even though each of them had their moments of hairy eyeball on MBL. Inhim was having fun, hunting scum, sassy, unafraid. CTD was trying to piece the puzzle together while he was here, and nailed some solid arguments together. Thok picked right up and started bombing away. If he's scum, he's made at least two enemies in BT and Fonz, when he could have placated them. He'll probably get gassed tonight if we don't nail the godfather. (And I'll get accused of attempting to WIFOM the town for the 53rd time as I ruthlessly murder someone semi-defending me.)

Yos, I need to reread and maybe I'll do that right now. The last time I read him, I was on a plane with "find all by Yos" pulled up, and after an hour of reading relatively indifferent Yos, I decided that the pieces fit together and he was likely scum. He's actually gotten a little pissed off today and his pride has him making a few sound decisions. Fonz will accuse me of placating, but when I'm dead you'll realize I wasn't, and if you think about it now you'll know it's true--Yos is playing more to get things right than it seemed he was in the first 2/3 of this game.

Twilight and Fonz are latching on to my play at the end of the day yesterday and trying to hyperextend whatever the fuck happened into some master plan of sinisteritude. Fonz seems irked if I ask him to look at my wider body of play, maybe because his mind is made up and he can't be assed. I think he took a gander and shoehorned his skim into his worldview. Didn't seem like an honest attempt to ascertain much of anything. I don't recall him saying one single positive thing about my play, which is hardly objective, and which will probably doom him if/when I come up town. Thing about Fonz is, he's got no endgame strategy if he misexiles me. He looks like an utter buffoon for the singleminded way he's played today, and no matter who he nightkills, the other two will almost certainly converge upon him tomorrow. Curious way of looking at it, but it makes Fonz look a lot less suspect in my eyes. And a lot more like boneheaded town.

If Fonz is not scum my guess is Twilight is. Twilightscum sees Fonz burying himself in the MBL morass. What's the correct play for Twilight? To stay on MBL with Fonz, but to seem more responsible about it. That way, if someone eventually gets weary and lynches MBL, Fonz's throat is the one on the line tomorrow, and Twilight is shielded. If Billyscum goes for Yos or Thok today, that makes a bonus enemy and really complicates things for him tomorrow. If Billyscum goes for Fonz today, I think he looks awkward for abandoning his MBL obsession for the convenient kill. Billy's analyses seem robotic and forced. He was full of apologies for being absent a lot this game, but wouldn't allow himself to be replaced. He stepped forward with long analyses from time to time, mostly on Yogurt Bandit.

I'm thinking a few shots of something tasty and a reread will open my mind to the true secrets of this game. Let's see if I have it in me tonight.

And yes, Billy, I'll get to your questions eventually, but I'm not scum, so this is more important. Trust me.

[MrBuddyLee]

*sips caramel Bailey's on the rocks*

Fonz and Billy, would you please indulge me a little silliness?

Please share what your opening paragraph would be tomorrow after MBL is lynched and comes up town. Bonus points for sincerity.

[MrBuddyLee]

*taps foot*

Sorry, I got wrapped up in Space Monkeys prep only to be vaporized immediately upon landing. It's a cruel universe.

[Thok]

*taps foot*

Sorry, I got wrapped up in Space Monkeys prep only to be vaporized immediately upon landing. It's a cruel universe.

Why don't you answer BillyTwilight's questions while you are around?

[MrBuddyLee]

I will, I will. This game is like that Senior Thesis that you put off til Finals Week. Just thinking about it makes me want to whip out the XBox360.

Thok, did my post from the other night make an impression? I surprised myself by finding a pretty decent reason to think Fonz might be town after all.

[Thok]

I will, I will. This game is like that Senior Thesis that you put off til Finals Week. Just thinking about it makes me want to whip out the XBox360.

Do you need some sort of deadline to force you into action? I will threaten you with a lynching vote in order to get you to respond to stuff others have posted.

Thok, did my post from the other night make an impression? I surprised myself by finding a pretty decent reason to think Fonz might be town after all.

I'm doing my own analysis of the situation, thank you very much. This question comes off very much as "Hey Thok, look at me, I'm doing analysis in a way to try to make you happy. Aren't you proud of me? Doesn't my analysis make you think I'm townie?"

That said, I think at least one part of your analysis is wrong (about what The Fonz does if you are hypoTown and get hypomislynched today; The Fonz/BT aren't likely to lynch each other in endgame, [assuming one is scum and one is town] even if you are hypomislynched.) It also feels like you are being hypocritical by focusing mostly on The Fonz/BT/Yos2's play today is assessing people's scumminess while asking us to look over your overall play.