Mini 878: Nouns Mafia - Da game is ovah!

[StrangerCoug]

We're now split right down the middle with everyone voting. I'm happy with either lynch (and Net's claim is hard to wrap my head around), but Boxman or whoever's replacing him needs to get the heck in here and post something worthwhile.

[elvis_knits]

I'm disappointed you didn't hammer.

[mathcam]

I'm not. In the words of Dr. elbirroH: Nail, meet Hammer.

Unvote: Boxman, Vote: Neto.

Cam

[DraketheFake]

That's a lynch. Final vote count, end of day scene, and replacement for Boxman forthcoming.

[DraketheFake]

Final Vote Count: Day 1

Netopalis:

7 (mathcam, elvis_knits, Seol, MacavityLock, SensFan, Iecerint, Boxman)

Boxman:

3 (StrangerCoug, Konowa, Netopalis)

Iecerint:

1 (Percy)

Not Voting:

(big_kahunia)

Nouns circle. Netopalis, Boxman center. Boxman? Netopalis? Boxman? Netopalis?

Netopalis.

Netopalis corpse.

Netopalis

who was a

Stethoscope,

Vanilla Townie

, Dis-Nouned Day 1

.

It is now

Night

. People with night actions must submit them by

12:00 AM Midnight, November 18th

. However:

Day 2

will not begin until I find a replacement for

Boxman

.

[DraketheFake]

Effective immediately

Hoopla

replaces

Boxman

. The night

Night Deadline

is

Wednesday, November 18th, at 12:00 Midnight EST

.

[DraketheFake]

Morning. Sun, yawns, head count.

SensFan

? SensFan corpse. Filled tiny holes. Also: crater.

Hoopla

also crater. And blue energy. Crackling.

And

mathcam

? mathcam corpse. Fire, fire fire.

8

Nouns.

SensFan

, who was

Marshall Bruce Mathers, AKA Eminem, AKA Slim Shady, AKA Marshall Mathers,

Town Bomb

, filled with tiny holes whereupon he exploded Night 1

.

Hoopla

, who was

The Candlestick from Clue,

Mafia Redirector

, slapped out of his rhinestone shirt and X-busted Night 1

.

mathcam

, who was a

Marimba,

Vanilla Townie

, on fire Night 1

.

[Iecerint]

So Boxman was both vigged and bomb'd, and mathcam was NK'd?

Finally, I think scum tells = more over-rated than Adam Morrison coming out college

BK, what did you mean by this?

[Hoopla]

bah teehee

[StrangerCoug]

Now I trust Lynch All Lurkers a little more seeing that Hoopla, who replaced my biggest suspect, got bombed.

I have to go to work now, so I'll make my big post in a minute, but something doesn't look right about Percy. elvis_knits is on the suspicious side with #326 also.

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP: "In a minute" should be when I get back. I don't post from work.

[elvis_knits]

All those who resisted boxman wagon and pushed Neto need sto die ASAP.

I am glad sensfan is gone because he would have been a prime suspect. That leaves us with Iecerint, who claimed support for boxman wagon, but never voted him and hid behind sensfan pushing netopalis all day.

vote: iecerint

[elvis_knits]

elvis_knits is on the suspicious side with #326 also.

Why?

And why didn't you hammer again?

[elvis_knits]

We're now split right down the middle with everyone voting. I'm happy with either lynch (and Net's claim is hard to wrap my head around), but Boxman or whoever's replacing him needs to get the heck in here and post something worthwhile.

Moreover, this post stinks to high heaven to me.

Me and others thought there was something wrong with the claim and so wanted Net dead ASAP, so we could hopefully lynch scum and also to limit the amount of role info that got discussed.

Why did you want to extend the day by waiting for the Boxman replacement?

[elvis_knits]

Okay, I did some fun color-coding of the end of day votecount, with the allignments we know colored, and my guesses at the other allignments.

Netopalis(town)

:

7

(mathcam (town)

, elvis_knits (town), Seol(town?), MacavityLock(?),

SensFan(town),

Iecerint(scum?),

Boxman(scum))

Boxman(scum

):

3 (StrangerCoug(scum?), Konowa(?),

Netopalis(town)

Iecerint(scum?):

1 (Percy(town?))

Not Voting:

(big_kahunia(?))

From this, I think that there is probably another scum on the Neto wagon. I tend to think it is one of the early pushers, and not one of the ones who went on late after the claim, since I see that as pro-town. So I lean more town on Seol, although he was absent for a while yesterday so I don't have a complete read on him. I am also just a bit suspicious of him since I know he is a good player, so I don't want to write him off completely, but I tentatively put him at town.

So, Iecerint seems like the most obvious scum from the NEt wagon since he pushed the wagon with sensfan all day and never voted boxman.

ML is also a possble scum though. Neto was the only person ML voted all day after his random vote. I played with ML recently in Second String Muppets Mini. We were scum there and he kept his vote on one person the whole first day before getting vigged at night. I'm thinking this might be a scumtell for him, picking one suspect and sticking with it.

StrangerCoug is less cut-and-dry. Looking at his ISO, he voted Boxman early and kept his vote there for a while. This is good. But when he switched his vote to NEtopalis, he gave the most horrible reason in the universe "Neto is trying too hard to look town." He is then pushed back to voting Boxman when Boxman never shows up. Can't tell anything from that, really. Reluctance to vote Netopalis at the end of yesterday has me thinking he just wanted to keep off the mislynch, but that's just my read. I am interested to hear his response to my previous posts.

Konowa spent a good deal of yesterday pressuring Netopalis, but as I said yesterday, he seemed to be having original thoughts, like he was thinking for himself, and was just, you know... wrong. This is sort of just a gut read of him.

Percy wasn't around too much yeserday, so I can't be suresure of my read until I see more from him. But what he did post was very in line with my thinking, and I agreed very much with his points, and the things he was picking up on about Iecerint. I feel strongly that he is town, and the low-level mumbling from strangercoug that Percy might be scum is of concern to me.

bigkahunia, need to see more from. I don't remember liking him very much, but I need more.

Interesting note: ML picked to lurkerrandomvote parhelic (bigkahunia replaced) instead of mathcam. This suggested a preference for parh/bigkahunia, and maybe a possible buddy in mathcam. Since mathcam is town, we can throw that one out, and I would suspect that if one of them is scum, the other is not their buddy. Not a sure thing, but something that is probably true, barring anything serious developing.

Simply:
Scum:
Iecerint
StrangerCoug

Neutral:
MacavityLock(lean scum)
bigkahunia
Konowa(lean town)


Town:
elvis
Seol
Percy

[MacavityLock]

SC looks pretty bad in light of Box/Hoopla's flip, in large part due to

Unvote: Boxman

and demote him to a

Major HoS
Vote: Netopalis

Vote: SC

while I do some more digging.

ML is also a possble scum though. Neto was the only person ML voted all day after his random vote. I played with ML recently in Second String Muppets Mini. We were scum there and he kept his vote on one person the whole first day before getting vigged at night. I'm thinking this might be a scumtell for him, picking one suspect and sticking with it.

So, I knew I tend to do this, but I didn't realize just how often. I just meta'd myself, and it turns out that this is just a me-tell, especially Day 1. Elvis already mentioned this for the Muppets game where I was scum.

Last 3 completed games where I was town:
/in-vitational 3 - Stayed on Kublai all of Day 1.
Empire at War - Stayed on Sajin all of Day 1.
Newbie 801 - Stayed on lrd all of Day 1.

[elvis_knits]

ML, okay, I'm glad you linked to those games. Voting Net all day still stands as a point against you since he was town, but the meta thing now doesn't matter to me. Also, you get pro points for noticing SC's scumminess, which I agree with.

---

I was rereading konowa and I am not as sure of my town-gut read on him.

Alright...I can see the point about going with minimal tells on day one. That being said, I really think we need to hear from Boxman a bit more before continuing - he's at 3 votes and we're not even past page 4.

This really feels like you are trying to show support for the Boxman wagon without having to place a vote on him. Why are you so concerned Boxman has three votes at this point?

unvote;

vote Netopalis

Boxman needs to start talking. As does Parhelic.

I think this is sort of hypocritical because I think he is showing a weak support for the boxman wagon while voting netopalis (for showing support for the boxman wagon without voting him).

Something seems very wrong about that.

And stuff like this:

Netopalis, you have been trying to slow down the Boxman wagon since it took off.

My original contention was that people cannot attack Net for wanting to slow the boxman wagon unless they know boxman is scum. If boxman were town, it would all be null. So people that attacked Net based on his treatment on boxman, are highly suspicious to me.

I think that Konowa's suspicions of Net are very dependent on boxman, and so wanting net dead first is very backwards.

Now I would say that my top scummy suspects are:

Iecerint
StrangerCoug
Konowa

[elvis_knits]

ML, what do you think of Iecerint?

[Seol]

Okay, so a quick overview of exactly who's playing and their positions on the Boxman/Neto divide yesterday:

BK (replacing Parhelic): Not sure here, there isn't much to go on. Didn't really take positions on anything (either of them) - wasn't anti- or pro- anything, which whilst scummy in itself doesn't reflect particularly on the Box/Neto revelations.

elvis: Unlikely to be scum with Boxman: was arguing strongly that Neto only made sense in the context of Box being scum, and therefore the Box wagon should be pushed first - only switched to Neto after the claim.

Iecerint: I'm not sure I buy elvis' argument against Iecerint here. I agree that he was supporting the Boxman wagon in everything except vote: I differ in that I don't think that ties him to Boxman. Arguments are as meaningful as votes in determining wagon momentum, and supporting the Boxwagon with arguments doesn't really help protect Box, which is the motivation behind avoiding voting him.

Konowa: I like much of what Konowa is saying. Was early on Neto based on his response to the Boxwagon, but was supporting the Boxwagon in this time, and switched to Box after he failed to return as (Boxman) promised.

Macavitylock: Never voted Box, and for that matter never supported the Boxwagon other than this:

The topic now is Boxman's continued absense. He has no excuse and he's a perfectly valid lynch. But I worry that we'd be passing up someone who is more clearly scum in my mind. I don't think that Elvis's point that Neto can't be scum if Box is town is valid, so I see no reason to lynch Box first.

Which is only supporting Box in a couched manner.

Percy: Only one real substantive post to examine, but it makes his position quite clear:

I think those voting Neto need to provide me with reasons as to why Boxman shouldn't go first.

Strangercoug: First vote on Boxman. I'm a little uncomfortable with:

It's kind of hard to call my vote on Boxman a second random vote, though I was aware of the unlikelihood that he'd be lynched on that alone. Seol's vote is clearly serious, and

I am led to believe he interpreted mine as so

.

That strikes me as awfully careful word choice - why not just say his vote was serious, that implies that my impression it was serious was

just

my impression, and not the intent. That said, although he switched to Neto at 252, he then switched back to Box in 307 putting Box on L-1. Can't say there's any avoiding the wagon there.

So, at the moment I think that BK and Macavitylock are most likely to be associated with Box, with elvis and Percy least likely. It's worth pointing out that experienced players would have no hesitation in supporting bussing an absent player (plus with the kill pattern it's likely there's scum not associated with Box), so I'm not dismissing anyone; furthermore, this is only one basis for comparison.

But right now, I'm comfortable with a

vote: MacavityLock

. SC's flipping from Box to Neto is kinda nullified by his later putting Box on L-1, and coming from someone who

never

had a vote on Boxman that feels... stretching.

[MacavityLock]

One important note about voting Neto "all day". While Neto was my only serious vote yesterday, I was LA for a large portion of time, and my Neto vote didn't come until page 12. By that time, I had in front of me: (a) active person who has made what I considered scumtells and (b) inactive person who made a couple posts that I considered somewhere between scummy and lazy, I'll always vote (a).

The SC quote I pulled was scummy less because he flipped from Box to Neto, it was more the "Major HOS" he left on Box. I cannot for the life of me read Box's posts as so scummy that they deserve that signifier.

Re: Iec. My gut had him on the scummy side from Day 1, and he's someone I'll be reading in depth to examine connections. No verdict as yet.

[Iecerint]

I don't blame people for thinking I may be scum given Neto and Boxman's flips. All I can refer you to is the views I expressed D1 about the possibility that Neto could be scum without BM, which I maintain were justified.

I don't think that ML is the most likely scum. He lurked a little, and he was suspicious of Neto, but I think the arguments he's presented have been solid. Also, his play reminds me of his play in the WoT theme game, where he was town. Percy reads similar to ML to me, except that his comeback post in my view contained significant distortion about SF and me. His play with regard to confirmed players looks good, though. Withholding judgment for now. I had a gut town read on Seol D1, but in iso it looks like he put a lot of effort into legitimizing the Neto wagon early on, and then sort of lurked once the rest of us had it going. This was apparently due to real-life commitments, but it makes me wonder a little. Still, the fact that he kept his vote on BM for the vast majority of D1, even when there was sustained parity between wagons, speaks well of him.

BK hasn't given us much, but what he has given us has been highly suspect. His first post expresses interest only in the Neto wagon without addressing BM's while his second post implies that Neto is scum if BM is, but doesn't follow up with a request to lynch BM first, anyway. The extension of this perspective is that either could be scum without the other, so I think he was just twisting existing rhetoric rather than providing his own. His predecessor did nothing but question SF's initial vote for BM, which isn't much, but is nonetheless a point against him.

FoS: BK

.

SC is another good suspect. elvis has already spelled this out very well; I don't really have anything to add.

Pending further information, I think we should lynch either BK or SC.

Vote: StrangerCougar

.

[elvis_knits]

All I can refer you to is the views I expressed D1 about the possibility that Neto could be scum without BM, which I maintain were justified.

I disagree. The whole premise was backwards and screwed up. The central problem with Net was wanting to slow the boxman wagon. If boxman was town and neto was scum, he wouldn't have wanted to do that. I could see them as scum together or I could see boxscum and netotown. boxtown and netscum was not possible.

Admit you were wrong and then we'll talk.

[Iecerint]

I was wrong in the sense that BM was scum and Neto was not. I doubt that's what you mean, though.

Neto did a number of things unrelated to BM that I view as scummy, including but not limited to advocating set-up discussion. The fact that he later clarified that he was referring to the hypothetical, abstract value of set-up discussion rather than this game (in other words, that he was making comments irrelevant to why he thought that early wagons were a bad tool in this game) didn't make things any better IMO.

[elvis_knits]

I fail to see how that was such a big deal. IMO, most of the points against Neto were things that people blew out of proportion and presented as cardinal sins. The setup speculation thing is a classic example.

He didn't come into this game and say "mass roleclaim nao!"

Look at page 3, he says he's not such a fan of early wagons, seol asks him what he'd rather do and he says:

Generally, I find that posing questions and discussions like this about theme and method are more effective...[than random bandwagons]

Seol questions further, asking if it's a good idea to setup speculate:

Not always. That being said, I could definitely see it being a problem in this specific one....

He doesn't like the fact that I'm going against the common practice of pressure and reaction votes, nor the fact that I suggested setup discussion as a potentially better method of early scumhunting.

Fair enough, I retract the statement. I only intended it as a general replacement anyway.

Basically he said he doesn't like early bandwagons and gave example of setup speculation as an alternative. He didn't try to actually do it, or ask anyone to roleclaim. He even admits it might be bad in this particular game and then retracts his statement, saying he just meant it as a general example of something we could do besides bandwagon.

He was not really advocating we setup speculate. Seol questioned him about it and he was forced to keep talking about it. Then you and sensfan hammered on about it for ages and blew it into this huge deal when never needed to be.

Do I think he was wrong to suggest it? Yes. Do I disagree with his gameplay philosophy? Yes.

But it was not the huge deal you are making it out to be.

[Iecerint]

I remembered him sticking with the argument longer than it looks like he did, but you're right; he didn't hold onto it as long as I thought.

Still, advocating set-up speculation as an alternative to scumhunting sort of IS a "cardinal sin" IMO. And, contrary to your recent analysis, he certainly did advocate that we setup speculate; he just backpedaled when pressured on it (or that's what it looked like at the time -- in hindsight, he just wasn't thinking very clearly when he suggested it at first. or something). I also thought it was suspicious that he repeatedly asked the same questions of SF even though the answers had already been explained.