Mini 904 - Narnia: LWW Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #325 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:53 am

Post by kikuchiyo »

Appeal to Emotion.

It is considered a logical fallacy.
Starbuck wrote:Also, kiku, you can stop being so condescending and rude. It IS against the MS Forum Rules and Guidelines.
This is a good example. Trying to diffuse suspicion by implying some sort of "hostility" or playing the "poor me" card. Earlier in the thread I alluded to Star's play in a previous game where she played rather emotionally as evidence that her initial behavior in response to the rvs happenings was null tell at best. I applied the term in the wrong context but I thought I explained myself well and got my point across at the time.
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Post Post #326 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:38 am

Post by Starbuck »

That definitely wasn't AtE. I was reminding you of the Forum Rules and Guidelines. Mafia games are supposed to be fun, and you shouldn't start going out of your way to post anything that is an attack of ad hom rather than an attack of a person's actions.

But as I said before it doesn't matter what I say because you will find some way to twist it for your own personal gain.

And that, my friend, is scummy.
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Post Post #327 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:45 am

Post by kikuchiyo »

Starbuck wrote:That definitely wasn't AtE. I was reminding you of the Forum Rules and Guidelines. Mafia games are supposed to be fun, and you shouldn't start going out of your way to post anything that is an attack of ad hom rather than an attack of a person's actions.

But as I said before it doesn't matter what I say because you will find some way to twist it for your own personal gain.

And that, my friend, is scummy.
By all means. Point out the ad hom. What did I say that was so terribly offensive as to warrant a refresher course on the rules?

You are incorrect. The statement I quoted was most definitely AtE, if not that, then it was 100% an Appeal to Authority, which is also a logical fallacy. Either way you are continuing your pattern of avoiding contributing to this game.

Stop arguing with me and give us your take on what has happened. Do not use my name, reference me, talk about me, or ask me questions. List your other suspects and your reasons why. Your failure to honor this request is contributing to the inevitability of your lynch.
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Post Post #328 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 9:59 am

Post by Starbuck »

Unvote: dybeck

Vote: kikuchiyo



I'm waiting to see if anyone else has any questions for me besides yourself, but since you continue to go out of your way to be so rude. I'm going to hold off on who else I find suspicious.
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Post Post #329 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:06 am

Post by Starbuck »

Also, I would very much appreciate that you don't paint my play as you are, you have played in TWO games with me. You have no idea how I play. Before you start making assumptions and acting like you know everything there is to know about my meta and playstyle, you need to stop and maybe look into my close to or over 40+ games on site as well as talk to those who I have played with a lot.

And who are you to assume that I'm continuing to avoid. You are assuming that I don't have multiple windows of MS open and are keeping tabs as I'm working on notepad documents.

So quite assuming because that is WIFOM which is also scummy.
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Post Post #330 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 10:36 am

Post by kikuchiyo »

Simmer down, pussycat. I am not assuming anything here. I have quite openly expressed the fact that I was not willing to use your meta as much more than null tell and never professed to know everything about it.
Star wrote:And who are you to assume that I'm continuing to avoid. You are assuming that I don't have multiple windows of MS open and are keeping tabs as I'm working on notepad documents.
All I am asking is for you to post these documents. Calling me rude isn't helping. I am being quite open with you about the situation.

Holding off on your other suspicions when you are clearly the lynch for today is only hurting town. By hurting town you bolster the case against you. Why is this so hard to understand?

Anyways. I'm done with you. I expect votes to finish this lynch before deadline. If Starbuck sees fit to grace us with her multiple documents of analysis then I that would just be peachy.
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Post Post #331 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:12 pm

Post by Kdub »

Vote Count

Starbuck (5)
- dybeck, kikuchiyo, Riceballtail, bv310, manho
Riceballtail (0)
-
bv310 (3)
- MadCrawdad, Papa Zito, Narninian
MadCrawdad (0)
-
kikuchiyo (1)
- Starbuck
HackerHuck (0)
-
Papa Zito (1)
- Sibelius
wolframnhart (0)
-
Narninian (0)
-
manho (1)
- wolframnhart
dybeck (0)
-
Sibelius (0)
-
No Lynch (0)
-
Not Voting (1)
- HackerHuck

12 votes available, 7 votes needed to lynch.

Deadline is January 26, ~ 12:30 am MST.
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Post Post #332 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:37 pm

Post by Papa Zito »

1. I get a very town vs. town feeling from the above exchange.

2. I'm disagreeing with a lot of what kiku is saying.

3. Hey look bv isn't lynched yet.
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Post Post #333 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:40 pm

Post by wolframnhart »

I agree with Zito on the town vs town, and bv310 is still semi-scummy to me but I still find more scum vibe coming from manho at this time.
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Post Post #334 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 2:43 pm

Post by Papa Zito »

I'll go back and read him. I remember a hot-cold feeling.
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Post Post #335 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 3:04 pm

Post by kikuchiyo »

PZ: Can you explain or refer me to the case on bv? As far as I could tell, the case seemed dependent on Starbuck being scum as well. I'd rather not plug the thread with more Star/kiku but if you could explain where you disagree with me that would be helpful. Maybe I'm not seeing something. I am rather convinced that the only explanation for Star's obstinate behavior is that she is caught scum. Deja vu, though. We do need to have something together in the next day or so if we end up with another claim.
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Post Post #336 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:33 pm

Post by Riceballtail »

If we're not lynching Star, then I'm gonna have to say we need a claim from manho really soon too.

Unvote; Vote:Manho
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Post Post #337 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:21 pm

Post by Papa Zito »

kikuchiyo wrote:PZ: Can you explain or refer me to the case on bv? As far as I could tell, the case seemed dependent on Starbuck being scum as well.
It's independent of Starbuck really. He's playing a very follow-the-town game.
kikuchiyo wrote:I'd rather not plug the thread with more Star/kiku but if you could explain where you disagree with me that would be helpful.
Well, here are your points:
kikuchiyo wrote:1) I am not satisfied with your explanations. Rewording them doesn't help.
2) You have had plenty of time for game analysis and all you have produced is a giant omgus case.
3) You are going to be lynched. Yet you prefer to argue with me than produce any other relevant game analysis.
4) You are "waiting to see if anyone else has questions" when you should be combing the thread and producing useful information for us to use after your flip.
1. I happen to have some insight about Star's posting in other games, which I can't really discuss, so I believe her on that point. Regarding the whole white knight thing, yeah, it's bad, but I feel bv is worse. I think we should be lynching the scummi
est
player (manho pending) so.
2. I didn't like her vote on you, but it actually made me feel she's more town. Scum's agenda is to lynch townies, and there's no way she's going to wagon you right now, so in essence it's a wasted vote. But it's not a vote scum would make, scum would go for the counter wagon most likely.
3. You've said this a couple of times now and it really makes me twitch.
4. Time is an issue. And didn't she just pound you for a page and a half?
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Post Post #338 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:24 pm

Post by Papa Zito »

Holy hell is manho bad. I can dig this.

unvote: bv310
vote: manho
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Post Post #339 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:08 pm

Post by dybeck »

Manho: suppose, for argument's sake, that this new wagon on you builds up steam. At what point will you claim?
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Post Post #340 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:15 pm

Post by Starbuck »

I'm very much not comfortable with dybeck's calls for early claims.
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Post Post #341 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:21 pm

Post by Starbuck »

Also, PZ, the only reason why I voted Kiku at the top of the page was because of the following:
kikuchiyo wrote:Stop arguing with me and give us your take on what has happened. Do not use my name, reference me, talk about me, or ask me questions. List your other suspects and your reasons why. Your failure to honor this request is contributing to the inevitability of your lynch.
She's being completely hypocritical. She's been tunneling on me all game and wants me to list my other suspects and reasons why, but she has not done the same. All she has done is continually tunnel on me.

I want her to back off tunneling me and think about who else (in her mind) may be scum.

Her severe overreaction to my post on her as well as everything else in the last page and 1/2 bothers me, but I'm willing to be that she's town over scum.

I would just like her to do the same thing she's DEMANDING me to do.
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Post Post #342 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:24 pm

Post by Papa Zito »

Starbuck wrote:She's being completely hypocritical. She's been tunneling on me all game and wants me to list my other suspects and reasons why, but she has not done the same. All she has done is continually tunnel on me.
Agreed. I don't find that vote-worthy tho.
Starbuck wrote:Her severe overreaction to my post on her as well as everything else in the last page and 1/2 bothers me, but I'm willing to be that she's town over scum.
If that's so then your vote needs to move, eh?
Starbuck wrote:I would just like her to do the same thing she's DEMANDING me to do.
Scumlist request then?
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Post Post #343 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:40 pm

Post by manho »

dybeck wrote:Manho: suppose, for argument's sake, that this new wagon on you builds up steam. At what point will you claim?
L-1. and it is not a good time, 3 days before the deadline, to start another wagon just for a claim. you won't have enough time to put me at L-1 and back to the starbuck lynch.
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Post Post #344 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:43 pm

Post by manho »

i think starbuck is town, but she is today's lynch.
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Post Post #345 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:46 pm

Post by Starbuck »

It will be moved. I want to read manho in iso and see what you all are talking about.


And yes, I request kikuchiyo to provide cases on people that aren't me.
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Post Post #346 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 8:49 pm

Post by Starbuck »

In fact,

Unvote
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Post Post #347 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:40 pm

Post by dybeck »

manho wrote:
dybeck wrote:Manho: suppose, for argument's sake, that this new wagon on you builds up steam. At what point will you claim?
L-1. and it is not a good time, 3 days before the deadline, to start another wagon just for a claim. you won't have enough time to put me at L-1 and back to the starbuck lynch.
This doesn't really answer my question. I'm asking you, for arguments sake, to assume that lots of people want to join your wagon in the next 24 hours, say.

At what point, in time, or in number of votes, will you claim?
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Post Post #348 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:42 pm

Post by dybeck »

dybeck wrote:
dybeck wrote:Actually, Starbuck, I have a question for you.

Now, presumably, even you'll admit that your claim is not a strong one. I'm sure that you would have felt far more comfortable if you'd been able to tell us that you were Aslan or Lucy, for example.

With this in mind, may I ask you to please consider this post from wolframnhart?
wolframnhart wrote:I believe Starbucks' claim. Again I am not going to try and out guess the mod on which characters he put in the game, but her role makes sense to me.
He appears to genuinely accept your claim wholly, even though you're able to offer us a character that has little more than a cameo role in the book.

Now we know you're claiming to be pro-town. I've made it very clear that I don't believe you. But that aside for a sec.

Purely for argument's sake, let's say that you're telling the truth. Do you take his post at face value, and that he genuinely believes your (presumably vanilla) claim without question? Or do you think he's scum trying to bolster his pro-town credentials if you get lynched today and flip town?
Also, Starbuck, I wonder whether you're yet in a position to answer this question that I posed a couple of pages back?
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Post Post #349 (ISO) » Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:58 pm

Post by HackerHuck »

I'm just going to post my brief notes and observations from my readthrough. I did feel that there was way too much distraction with the whole L-3 debacle that Starbuck initiated, so I'm really going to avoid commenting on it much. Starbuck is very overdefencive. I find that to be a common scumtell (I know many people may disagree, but meh).
Her Vote against Dybeck in 158 is so OMGUS it hurts. Don't like the weak attempt to distract with Sibelius just a few posts later. That name came out of nowhere and had nothing in the post to make me want to look at him. It really seems like she's grasping at straws.
It was a horrible claim by Starbuck. She really needed to put out more flavour rather than stringing it along. It did feel a little like she was trying to guage how the wind was blowing before giving any more details. Especially considering it was a vanilla role, I don't see what value there is for a townie to hold back.

Overall Starbuck seems a little too stubborn about the L-3 debate for it to be a real scumtell, but there have been enough other things to warrant the wagon in my opinion. I'm a little leery about how aggressively her wagon has been pressed by Papa Zito, then Dybeck, and Kiku.

I think that Starbuck overshadowed much of the other players. I'm not really going to go into my town reads yet, because I want to focus on who to lynch before we hit deadline. There are two others that really caught my eye and I also need to comment on Manho.

BV310 also caught my eye. Crawdad made a good catch (post 72) on BV310's Starbuck inconsistency.

BV310's scumlist has two potential scum on opposite ends of the spectrum. That said, I could see Papa Zito
bussing a scum Starbuck as hard as he did. I wouldn't say that PZ has been leading at this point. He's just been pushing the Starbuck wagon very hard. That's aggressive, but not really leading as I would define it.
I'm obviously concerned about his lack of desire to vote. He sure seemed to find Starbuck scummy, but he doesn't throw down a vote until he decides to "trust Dybeck". If Starbuck turns town, I could easily see BV310 trying to setup Dybeck for a fall tomorrow. When he gets called out for parroting, his response still seems like he's parroting various themes that have already been brought up and then brings up a new suspect.



Riceball is scum. He spends most of his time arguing about irrelevant facts and doesn't really bother to look for scum. It may be more obvious to look at his posts in iso, but I noticed it just reading through. Look at 144 (iso 10). He's just trying to fit in and make conversation without really scumhunting. Riceball is still scummy in 194 (iso 13).
I'm not really going along with the town here, but I really think this guy is scum. You guys should really join me.

Vote: Riceball

manho wrote:i think starbuck is town, but she is today's lynch.
Really? Why would you want to lynch someone you think is town? I had to reread him in iso to really figure this out, but I think I understand where he's coming from now. I do actually think Dybeck is townier than Starbuck, but I did like what Manho pointed out in post 254. I'm not sure that scum would be so ballsy as to make that statement this early on day one anyway (like I don't think they'd jump on someone to quicklynch at L-3.) I get some of the suspicion on Manho, but I'd really like to understand why he's singling out Dybeck for the "shit wagon" on Starbuck. Papa Zito was also aggressively pushing for her lynch as is Kiku. Why is Dybeck so important?

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