Mini Normal 2271 - Game Over

[MathBlade]

I think you assuming that just because you are a gunsmith means that a traitor is more likely. Because it is not, what's more likely is it's used as a cop that can RP nwot a ytliug-eslaf role or a Mafia doctor exists, or have it purely as a way to not have super obvious checks similar to how Cop would in a normal. I do not see how you've come to the conclusion of no traitors existing.

I also feel like this is quite a townie post from Jackson here. Presuming Koopa is town if they are making incorrect assumptions about the gamestate mafia has no reason to correct them and inform us to a greater extent that this may be incorrect. Also - while it's not impossible, I'm not sure mafia are as likely to casually speculate in this thread on what roles will be in the game when they have more info than the rest of us.

JV pointed out Koopa may be wrong re how they perceive the role alignments available in the game, I don't think mafia does that and it gives him some town points from me. If Koopa is wrong on this, why correct them? If they're right, seems risky to try a misdirect for available roles in the game.

Jackson's claim seems reasonable, insisted this morning their post about Koopa potentially reading the roles then was very townie and incredibly unlikely to come from mafia given the circumstances. Will read back for reactions to see how that was pushed in a while.

Since towntells were mentioned, here I am pointing out on D1 that Jackson's claim was likely townie on the basis that they had pointed out incorrect assumptions being made by Koopa. There isn't much need for mafia to do this - it would have been beneficial for mafia to let doubt fester about Jackson's role in the game. But because I'm town, and because I thought Jackson's claim was fundamentally town, I pointed that out.

How does this relate at all to me asking you why Kitty twice?

[MathBlade]

The presumption on me being mafia here is essentially based on the idea that I've spent all game literally doing things that are the antithesis of being beneficial to the mafia because it makes me look more like a townie. I get that can be a helpful approach for a while but it only tends to work for so long. And when there are other roles in the game that can potentially reveal your identity anyway it would have been possible for all my work to be undone anyway if I'd been mafia playing that way. It doesn't make sense.

I know wagons alone do not tell a player's allegiance but fundamentally it is quite remarkable I'm currently under more suspicion than HEM who has now twice hammered townies and Kitty who continually and almost exclusively pushed players who turned out to be town.

?? That may be someone else’s point but that’s not mine.

Mine is that your PR play and day play makes you very likely scum.

I for the life of me, cannot figure out why you Jailkeep Kitty twice. It just seems like a fake claim but you don’t want to give clears.

Brb dinner

[MathBlade]

The presumption on me being mafia here is essentially based on the idea that I've spent all game literally doing things that are the antithesis of being beneficial to the mafia because it makes me look more like a townie. I get that can be a helpful approach for a while but it only tends to work for so long. And when there are other roles in the game that can potentially reveal your identity anyway it would have been possible for all my work to be undone anyway if I'd been mafia playing that way. It doesn't make sense.

I know wagons alone do not tell a player's allegiance but fundamentally it is quite remarkable I'm currently under more suspicion than HEM who has now twice hammered townies and Kitty who continually and almost exclusively pushed players who turned out to be town.

I agree. Kitty and HEM are both someone that I am keeping an eye on.

I just don’t understand your thoughts here at all.

[MathBlade]

Like on a game play level you’ve been tunneling Kitty for what 2 days now I think? You’ve checked Kitty and found she did not kill or is a mafia PR and kept doing that then a second time for what? Like I don’t see where your brain is saying from point A to “omg tunnel Kitty”

[MathBlade]

Also - as to why I revealed my role, I was on E-2 and knew I was going to be inactive for a good 5/6 hours today because I was busy. I've seen wagons pushed through before more quickly than expected and I was wary that could potentially happen here when it's almost certain there will be two scum on said wagon because this is their best chance to get it down to 3v2.

It's also D3 now and we're getting towards the endgame - my perspective here is that we need to know as many townies as possible in order to try and win the game, and it's better you now know my role.

This feels really premeditated. Like you always were going to claim today.

Like this feels slimy.

[MathBlade]

Also - without wanting to make myself sound like an idiot, I'm not necessarily that good at this game and wouldn't really feel confident claiming a role so early on if I did not have one - I am inherently a very risk-averse player and would almost inevitably not pursue such a gambit until I was on the verge of going out. If I'm mafia I would still have a teammate who based on gameplay would still have a chance of winning; if I'm lying, you can see there's nobody blatantly pushing me here who is likely to be my teammate as some sort of bold attempt at a feint.

Even my checks are inherently honest when you think about it given my suspicions and reads so far. I continue to suspect Kitty given my reads on them so far that they are scum and did not make the kills; why would I admit that I jailed Kitty TWICE without success if I was scum wanting to paint them as being likely mafia? It wouldn't make any sense.

This is why I don’t believe you’re town either.

It doesn’t make sense as either alignment and Occam’s Razor is scum fake claim giving as little info as possible (mainly Kitty probably green if you flip red) than anything else.

You’re making big long arguments over why you’re town but not investing nearly the same effort into who scum is.

[MathBlade]

Only issue with a Kitty/Math team would be they'd have to have been incredibly lucky with their kill choices to avoid being jailed.

This feels like TMI that scum are low power or just blatant stretch/lie.

I literally argued that Kitty quite easily could just be scum PR and the jailkeep doesn’t work.

You read the post then apparently just ignored it?

I mean granted I am not scum but we’ve only seen Andres flip goon.

If you’re town surely scum have something to counteract the claims here right?

I feel like you’re trying to ride the PR coast train versus thinking about what you’re saying.

[MathBlade]

Math - what do you think of Kitty? Likely to be mafia or no?

I think with HEM yes, with Italiano no.

I work by teams right now.

For example I see you and a JV team and I don’t like how JV is sidelining this. I’d like if JV asked more questions.

I think HEM and Italiano or HEM and Kitty are most likely

But I can’t shake the deep wolf vibe I feel and I don’t know if either qualifies or I am just paranoid.

Math - where are you on this? You stated you thought HEM/Kitty was a possibility if Italiano was not scum. JV, your other suspect, is now gone, and HEM/Kitty have been caught sitting on yet another town bandwagon with HEM hammering for the second time. Does HEM/Kitty not look more viable to you in that regard?

HEM/Kitty does look viable to me. I just think that you’re scum more than that.

[MathBlade]

Scorpious have you pocketed me?

Surely Scorpious cannot be the wagon for today.

Who’s here?

Let’s compromise people.

I’m not liking that wagon.

Okay let’s try this.

VOTE: NK15

That was such an unnecessary hammer.

Italiano has seemed suss for some of today but this was their reaction to the Scorpious wagon at the time. I'm not sure how beneficial it would have been for mafia to continue going for a claimed role player when a town wagon was right there...Scorpious was a bit of a rubbish wagon but it seemed reasonable enough at time to plenty that Italiano could have had cover joining it if they are mafia.

The other option is mafia deliberately chose to keep someone off the wagon as a misdirect on D2, before we obviously went for Andre. But if Italiano is faking and staying off the Scorpious wagon, knowing it could give them town-cred, why target NK15 instead? Plenty of other players they could vote for who hadn't claimed at all.

Whether this was for show or not depends on people’s perception. Me saying it wasn’t means absolutely nothing if people already see me as scum because it’s only fmpov. But for you to bring this up makes me feel even stronger about you as town, unless you are white knighting me which isn’t impossible, but this is a good point to bring up.

Here is Italiano - a confirmed townie - TR'ing me for my read of them. They are aware this could be mafia trying to buy credibility, but point out there was generally little self-gain in it for me as well - it was a genuine read on my part because I consistently said the Scorpious wagon was worth looking at.

Your point? JV had a naked unexplained vote on you all day.

[Roden]

?

From what I understand, you town read me and scum read HEM. Do you think this is similar to Control and that I'm just pocketed here?

[MathBlade]

math

i sheep u on mt

can u sheep me on HEM tm

pls

Depends on what MT flips and how they flip.

I would say MT green makes HEM and Kitty even more likely.

[MathBlade]

I would say MT red makes HEM probably green. Looking at a TVS or SVT for HEM/Kitty and MT

[MathBlade]

Apologise if a lot of my above posts read like a big long and incoherent rant but I think it's important town go back and read through my ISO and that of the players who are accusing me/who I'm accusing here. Ultimately:

- I TR'd Jackson before their claim
- I pointed out Scorpious' play wasn't conductive to mafia
- I made a strong case for why Italiano was town
- HEM has now opportunistically hammered two townies
- Kitty has consistently SR'd townies while ignoring reasons they were town
- I am frankly not good enough to fakeclaim in this situation
- I am not good enough to deep wolf here and continually stay of town bandwagons to clear myself

This reads more like begging not to elim you than a genuine push.

Your posts are coherent but they seem more desperate not me.

[MathBlade]

Also, the argument I've been deep wolfing by TR'ing eliminated townies such as Scorpious and Italiano also doesn't work for a couple more reasons.

My stances were consistent on both players. I expressed some suspicion on Italiano but then very much TR'd them after an ISO check. It's not like I had to do a major reversal of my previous stance. Same for Scorpious: I quizzed them on contradictions in their posts but identified that their playstyle was fundamentally town.

It's not as if either of the two were preordained eliminations either. I've suspected HEM and Kitty who have also been prime suspects. I have voted for both at various points. I've also expressed suspicion in Math. Some of them are necessarily town irrespective of my alignment. Roden's argument I am deep wolfing is predicated on the idea I have been incredibly, incredibly lucky (or unlucky, I guess) with my town townreads constantly being eliminated at the expense of townies I've suspected.

And to add to that - we know Andre was scum and that Andre was incredibly inactive. One scum can sit back and play a deep wolf/town style to a greater degree but I'm not sure this is recommended when one player is inactive - at some point scum ideally need to assert some control of the game.

It’s long been a gripe of players on the site that scum can lurk and win.
Why do you think about what is recommended versus not for scum?

Like I logically comprehend your posts but I don’t understand them.

I feel like brain sausage

[MathBlade]

I think you're likely to be today's elim, so I'll just work with you as if you're town mmkay but you have to assume I'm town here otherwise it doesn't work

talk to me about Kitty and Math

I don’t like you outright assuming this.

I think MT is the smart elim right now but that assumption is icky

[MathBlade]

Kitty I share the same read as you do in as much as they're willing to hide behind a fatalistic will that town will never do X. He has been proven wrong with Scorpious but he made the same excuse as Italiano. I can understand that read.
Math, I've been waiting for them to turn online and dominate the game because that's how i experienced them in the large normal, but they never really read the thread. Although, I sympathize because I haven't done that myself.

You mean how I said I wouldn’t do that as I have been putting in lots of OT at work?

You’re literally just making up shit now.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: Unvote

My mood is all y’all can die. I am the serial killer (joke)

[KittyTacky]

For me the team is now Kitty-HEM, with Math potentially as backup choice but I may have been reaching there on D3 with my reads. HEM was essentially able to ride out that turn but basically just came back without reading the game again to eliminate another townie.

show us your results

I tried Kitty D1 and D2 but nothing. In retrospect I imagine someone else perhaps took on the kill, I'd just reckoned at the time Kitty may have been more likely to carry it out than someone like yourself for example.

I tried Math D3 out of interest but nothing there either. Should have probably gone for you in retrospect but ah well, happy with eliminating either you or Kitty this turn at the moment unless I can somehow be convinced of an alternative wagon on someone who's received less attention.

Yeah this is incredibly suspicious.

I don’t see why you wouldn’t have waited or pushed for any remaining PRs to claim and use it like a check of sorts.

Let’s say you’re town here

Then you intentionally simple cop checked Kitty N1 (will have to see if that makes sense based on reads). There’s no way you believed Kitty was the target so you’d have to believe Kitty was the person doing the killing. So Kitty either A> Didnt do the kill or B > Is a PR

There was a death N1 and Andres flipped goon which would have been caught by your simple JK.

Why on N2 would you pick the same target again?

Actually this is a good case against Malcolm. The push on me makes sense from a scum perspective too, easy to spin a mistaken townie as an opportunisting scummy pushing mislims. To prevent accidental hammers, I will only vote after I finish my catchup.

[KittyTacky]

Malmcolm's case on me is basically "Kitty pushed townies" but those townies looked pretty damn scummy at the time. I said enough about Scorp, but how would I know that someone pushing the guy with the guilty result on outed scum was actually a townie?

[KittyTacky]

Me + JV would have possibly been a shit fight for pages. I don’t think scum kill a backup vigilante here especially if Roden’s theory of a rolecop is true.

I can’t wrap my head around Malcolm possibly being town here.

Again this feels very much like overthinking, scum probably killed Jackson because Jackson has a role, it's likely that simple.

There is almost certainly no vig, backup vigilante is basically just a gunsmith miller. Surely it would be better to kill someone who hasn't claimed?

[KittyTacky]

Just because someone claimed a role doesn't mean they are a worthy kill.

[KittyTacky]

Also, the argument I've been deep wolfing by TR'ing eliminated townies such as Scorpious and Italiano also doesn't work for a couple more reasons.

My stances were consistent on both players. I expressed some suspicion on Italiano but then very much TR'd them after an ISO check. It's not like I had to do a major reversal of my previous stance. Same for Scorpious: I quizzed them on contradictions in their posts but identified that their playstyle was fundamentally town.

It's not as if either of the two were preordained eliminations either. I've suspected HEM and Kitty who have also been prime suspects. I have voted for both at various points. I've also expressed suspicion in Math. Some of them are necessarily town irrespective of my alignment. Roden's argument I am deep wolfing is predicated on the idea I have been incredibly, incredibly lucky (or unlucky, I guess) with my town townreads constantly being eliminated at the expense of townies I've suspected.

And to add to that - we know Andre was scum and that Andre was incredibly inactive. One scum can sit back and play a deep wolf/town style to a greater degree but I'm not sure this is recommended when one player is inactive - at some point scum ideally need to assert some control of the game.

You didn't defend either Scorp or Italiano super hard. You were just... there. Standing offwagon. But didn't really convince anyone. Conceivable that scum could do this for towncred.

[KittyTacky]

I now wonder how much of this game is just the town cannibalizing each other meanwhile scum just ride out the waves trying to stoke that fire.

Yeah same, town self-destructed with that day 1 mass claim.

[KittyTacky]

But this - again - ignores the point that'd been made that scum wouldn't want to sit on role claimed players without a solid case against said claim. Their logic was again the exact same here despite the fact I'd pointed out this was in my opinion more likely to come from lazy/uninformed town than scum.

You seem to assume that scum would play flawlessly and perfectly logically. Why?! That's a huge assumption to make.

[KittyTacky]

if it's true then Kitty and Math could be both scum PR and your clears on them would be entirely useless

Funny if my gut read on them possibly being teammates is correct here and I've forgotten my role wouldn't allow me to find that out.

Yes we are teammates. Town is a team.