Micro 792: Three in One (Day 6)

[Mathdino]

So you think I ALSO faked the AHA moment? Like I in no way think that mixing up the games and forgetting to finish a post about it is alignment indicative, but thinking that I timed the "finding an unfinished post" thing as a political response to NSG townreading me and then reversing my read on her this page...
Like I acknowledge that you see inconsistency. Everyone sees inconsistency in my reads progressions at times, fucking whatever.
But what I'm not understanding is wtf you think my scumplan here is. Great, I got NSG to think I'm near conftown... and now I'm trying to remove her from the game? Why NSG over literally any of the 6 players in this game who aren't Smart?

I'm not getting drawn into a game of WIFOM with you. I could have asked the same about you accepting my read on Penguin and still thinking I'm scum. Why would I convince you to look objectively at someone you're likely misreading? Who cares. WIFOM is useless.

It's not WIFOM, it's the fact that you're specifically claiming my read progression on NSG is political (correct me if I'm wrong) because I started townreading her after she was townreading me (correct, that was certainly part of that, unfortunately). But if my scum-motive is to keep NSG around because she thinks I'm conftown, trying to lynch her flies in the face of that.

And my theory for you-scum involves you buddying me initially, realising I was scumreading you for that, and pivoting to buddying Penguin against me (or you're just scum with Penguin, which is a niche theory). And if you end up convincing me, you-scum could bring me onto the N_M-wagon (which appeals to my policy lynch sensibilities). I don't see the inconsistency in that idea.

It's still hard to believe that you're really critically reading my posts. Or that you believe townleaning someone who just called me conftown (the opposite of OMGUS) is scum-indicative. Which doesn't even account for "then pivoting to lynch the only person calling me conftown".

[CheekyTeeky]

When the hell was I buddying you? You need to critically read everyone else's posts and give them a chance to contribute.

[CheekyTeeky]

I have an essay to write so don't use me not responding to anyone over the next 5 hours as AI for me.

[Mathdino]

Ok Math/NSG can be town.

what dropped me down, and what raised smart up?

Content. Smart feels natural/not agenda driven. I didn't like your skepticism of Math's town read on you and didn't understand your line of questionning on him. Yes me not understanding is not your fault but it subtly pinged me because you're usually pretty concise.

I think it's too early to figure out if Math is town weird or scum weird this early in the game with confidence. Voting him and adding additional pressure is probably only going to make him more defensive and non-scumhunty at this point.

Math I'm not going to get drawn into meta based on one game where she was 3p. Can you update your readslist please?

Ok I've solved it Penguin/NM scumteam GG.

[Something_Smart]

There's no motivation for scum Penguin to drop an AtE when he's under not very much pressure early game.

...except if it's genuinely how he feels?

[Mathdino]

> not critically reading other people's posts
> had just spent half an hour putting up a full reads list on everyone that isn't Bambi/Not_Mafia
> CLEARLY was critically reading NSG's posts

here have a lolcase

Spoiler:

Hi North

VOTE: NSG

Pedit kind of? I like them.

hey cheeky! can we finally have a game where we're both town again?

rvs vote, or serious? you mentioned a few other suspects you had, why vote me?

oh boy this line of questioning doesn't get anywhere

Thinking about it I have a theory about scumplay in this game but I'll hold it cos I wanna see if anyone plays like I would expect scum to

i actually think i know exactly what you're saying

but i would also play like that as town (if not more likely to)

and i think you know this about me

Why do you think I'm talking specifically about you

math, did you ever answer this?

prodding me to answer a jokey question, so pro-town

i don't really like the idea of policy lynching just to set up for future games – it feels kind of weird, like playing towards a future wincondition or something. not even a future wincondition, but maybe even just sacrificing parts of this game to have a potentially better next game. i'd really rather just lynch scumreads.

doesn't it also assume that whoever we're policy lynching is on the losing team for this game?

Yeah but he didn't say this specifically. What he said was scummy af. 1. He used rolling town as a reason. 2. He want's you lynched before LYLO which could mean you're not one of the first two people lynched who would be knocked out.

what do you mean by 2? i don't really get what you're saying here.

half the words she typed out for the game thus far has been fluff, meaningless "i don't like how you're playing the game", and casual disapproval of the claiming strategy

tl;dr NSG's only examples of complex thought thus far has been
- Paranoia of me townreading her, which she knows gets me to townread her.
- Clear dismay at me being potentially conftown by modspew.

[northsidegal]

At the time of making that original post:

NSG was playing to her scum meta.

Penguin I was scumreading.
CT I'm getting really bad feelings about but a lot of that is "I just got screwed by her scumgame so everything pings me now".
And Red I realised was also playing similarly to JK9++.

That "I'm scumreading everyone" post was only mostly ironic. Townreads have been hard to come by. Bambi isn't actually scum by play, and I'll admit that a couple things aren't what I'd expect of scum-Bambi.

So when 4 players are acting more like their scumselves and Bambi is just acting like themself, you kinda have to realise that everyone at the null line and below is actually likely town.

was the bolded a typo? it seems like it wasn't, but

just earlier

after you had realized your mix-up you said that my ISO so far was nai, not that it was apparently to my scum meta.

[Mathdino]

You also played to your scum meta in the first 7 or so posts of RC's game, which you acknowledged. Considering you were warning me throughout Tit for Tat that I'm gonna get snowed by you when you do roll scum, I figured "okay, sure, benefit of the doubt here". Plus you were the only one to call me conftown which made me happy.

But then I did the critical reread and realised there's nothing really game-advancing in your ISO and that at least means you're around 60-70% likely to be scum at this point in time.

Plus actually going through your posts, spreadsheet says you're scum by meta, although I've never tried to use it this early.

[Mathdino]

The best way I can explain this is that you were null by your ISO, and being null by your ISO itself means scum-NSG is highly likely. Taking Smart and Red out of the lynchpool, that leaves you at a 1/3 chance of being scum just by probability.

Then factor in the fact that I'm not townreading you, and that ISO nullread turns into a scumread.

[northsidegal]

NSG is weird. I just got out of a game where I lock-towned her as a reaction test specifically to see if she'd get all paranoid of me, under the assumption that she would only do so as town. I was just about to use that tell to townread her but now I realise that of fucking course she'd intentionally fish for townreads by doing that after I literally told her that's the reaction I was fishing for last game.
So I'm back to null there. NSG being at null is a very uncomfortable gamestate.

This is WIFOM, and kind of a lazy way to form a read. The contexts are different – if this time i actually feel like the vote is coming from an alignment informed position rather than it feeling genuine, i'm going to call it out. That question itself shouldn't be the basis for a read in the first place, i think. I mean, did you think that i thought you'd forgotten that reaction test last game?

NSG how do you feel about Math's progression on his read of you?

it feels opportunistic – even if i believe that the mix-up was real the whole tit for tat thing being used as justification for a vote doesn't seem genuine at all. remembering the reaction test and how he explicitly said the reaction he's looking would only really be a reason to drop me down to null (if he was making a lazy read in the first place), not as scum. "nsg isn't towny yet so that's a scumtell" isn't meaningful at all and mathdino knows that.

[northsidegal]

but yeah Red-town, Smart-town, Penguin-town-for-now-I-guess-until-I-metadive, and CT/N_M-not-the-scumteam narrows it down a lot
to the point where "NSG is playing her scum meta" basically means she's scum

where is your read on red coming from?

[Mathdino]

Dropping you down to a null is a fantastic reason to vote you, especially when I have stronger townreads on other players. Why would you think I should know otherwise?

My read on Red is coming from the blatant fakeness in Polygamist and JK9++. The things he was certain of vs the things he was uncertain of didn't make any sense.

In this game, he's actually been advancing the gamestate in his own way. He pinpointed posts that he felt were indicative, and explained where his reads came from.

[Mathdino]

This is WIFOM, and kind of a lazy way to form a read. The contexts are different – if this time i actually feel like the vote is coming from an alignment informed position rather than it feeling genuine, i'm going to call it out. That question itself shouldn't be the basis for a read in the first place, i think. I mean, did you think that i thought you'd forgotten that reaction test last game?

I get the feeling I'm gonna have to explain this read progression in full.

I was initially townreading you from the mixup because I wasn't paying attention to your ISO this game.
Then I realised the mixup and figured "eh this ISO is NAI but everyone is scummy this game so w/e". I was starting to agree with CT on not liking your lines of questioning.
Then you pointed out me being conftown, and THEN I realised your paranoia was justified, and those things combined made me gutread town.

Then I realised that paranoia is totally NAI (it's WIFOMable), and your ISO plays to your scum meta, and I was more removed from the "is Mathdino conftown" situation, so given no reason to townread you, and given that other players are townier than you are, I'm comfortable calling scum.

NSG how do you feel about Math's progression on his read of you?

it feels opportunistic – even if i believe that the mix-up was real the whole tit for tat thing being used as justification for a vote doesn't seem genuine at all. remembering the reaction test and how he explicitly said the reaction he's looking would only really be a reason to drop me down to null (if he was making a lazy read in the first place), not as scum. "nsg isn't towny yet so that's a scumtell" isn't meaningful at all and mathdino knows that.

I mean you said the exact same thing of me in Be Yourself, and unfortunately I forgot to ask whether you actually believed I was scum there.
I'm using Tit for Tat to nullify the previous paranoia towntell.
And "nsg isn't towny yet so that's a scumtell" has a 100% success rate.

[northsidegal]

Spoiler:

here have a lolcase

Hi North

VOTE: NSG

Pedit kind of? I like them.

hey cheeky! can we finally have a game where we're both town again?

rvs vote, or serious? you mentioned a few other suspects you had, why vote me?

oh boy this line of questioning doesn't get anywhere

it doesn't go anywhere because cheeky answers in

the very next post

. i don't think there's any useful further avenues of questioning with regards to her response – do you think there were and me not thinking of them makes me scum?

Thinking about it I have a theory about scumplay in this game but I'll hold it cos I wanna see if anyone plays like I would expect scum to

i actually think i know exactly what you're saying

but i would also play like that as town (if not more likely to)

and i think you know this about me

Why do you think I'm talking specifically about you

math, did you ever answer this?

prodding me to answer a jokey question, so pro-town

how is that a "jokey" question and how is me asking you to answer it in any way scum-indicative?

i don't really like the idea of policy lynching just to set up for future games – it feels kind of weird, like playing towards a future wincondition or something. not even a future wincondition, but maybe even just sacrificing parts of this game to have a potentially better next game. i'd really rather just lynch scumreads.

doesn't it also assume that whoever we're policy lynching is on the losing team for this game?

Yeah but he didn't say this specifically. What he said was scummy af. 1. He used rolling town as a reason. 2. He want's you lynched before LYLO which could mean you're not one of the first two people lynched who would be knocked out.

what do you mean by 2? i don't really get what you're saying here.

half the words she typed out for the game thus far has been fluff, meaningless "i don't like how you're playing the game", and casual disapproval of the claiming strategy

people were talking about policy lynches and playing towards the future games... so

I

talked about those things. You can't call that meaningless when that's what the current topic of discussion was.

tl;dr NSG's only examples of complex thought thus far has been
- Paranoia of me townreading her, which she knows gets me to townread her.
- Clear dismay at me being potentially conftown by modspew.

My being paranoid of you having bad reasons to townread you is in literally no way a scumtell, unless i'm meant to just stay silent on it and let you fake townread me whenever you're scum. You're also talking a level 0 view of what i would do as scum and assuming that i have a level 0 view of the way you develop reads in the first place. Is "math made a huge deal about this towntell that he was looking for in this game that just finished so i'll do it this time" a real thought that you think i would have as scum?

Quote where you think i display "dismay" at the mod thing.

[Mathdino]

Do you read Not Mafia as mafia or do you want to lynch him because he is unreadable?

What's wrong with Cheeky? She seems nice!

Anyway, Red, I want to know why your ISO is somehow shittier then NotMaf's or mine and why your vote on me.

I was sick
And I did not really like your 255, reason to vote mathdino. It looks like scummy excuse to vote someone just to vote or prevent them policy lynching you by saying they are scum trying to policy lynch you

Also my iso was never good in any game so your argument is invalid

Why did you vote not mafia instead of someone that would give you reactions?
I think you are opportunistic scum who will say "He was impossible to read anyways, that was a good PL." after lyncing not mafia.

VOTE: cheeky

Mathdino may be town if he is doing what Im thinking but thats very secret information and that would hurt town if I said it open

Btw me not tracky, forgot about this

Like this is kind of an insulting take on his scum meta given that these posts aren't particularly OUTSTANDING BEACONS OF TOWNISHNESS but all of these posts are way outside Red's scumrange.

[northsidegal]

And "nsg isn't towny yet so that's a scumtell" has a 100% success rate.

i mean, it just failed in tit for tat, and it also has a sample size of about 2 i'm pretty sure, so i don't really buy it.

[Mathdino]

Do you read Not Mafia as mafia or do you want to lynch him because he is unreadable?

What's wrong with Cheeky? She seems nice!

Anyway, Red, I want to know why your ISO is somehow shittier then NotMaf's or mine and why your vote on me.

I was sick
And I did not really like your 255, reason to vote mathdino. It looks like scummy excuse to vote someone just to vote or prevent them policy lynching you by saying they are scum trying to policy lynch you

Also my iso was never good in any game so your argument is invalid

Why did you vote not mafia instead of someone that would give you reactions?
I think you are opportunistic scum who will say "He was impossible to read anyways, that was a good PL." after lyncing not mafia.

VOTE: cheeky

Mathdino may be town if he is doing what Im thinking but thats very secret information and that would hurt town if I said it open

Btw me not tracky, forgot about this

Like this is kind of an insulting take on his scum meta given that these posts aren't particularly OUTSTANDING BEACONS OF TOWNISHNESS but all of these posts are way outside Red's scumrange.

Fixed.

[Mathdino]

And "nsg isn't towny yet so that's a scumtell" has a 100% success rate.

i mean, it just failed in tit for tat, and it also has a sample size of about 2 i'm pretty sure, so i don't really buy it.

You were still advancing the gamestate in Tit for Tat early game. The reaction test failed, yes, but I didn't expect it to fail. I didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with your ISO early game like I do now.

The spreadsheet didn't work because you play like scum when you're a PR.

[northsidegal]

You were still advancing the gamestate in Tit for Tat early game. The reaction test failed, yes, but I didn't expect it to fail. I didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with your ISO early game like I do now.

The spreadsheet didn't work because you play like scum when you're a PR.

This right now is something like the third time i've actually sat down to look at this game. you're literally just trying to activity tell me again, but with proxies for activity rather than just post count itself.

the only reason you think i played like scum that game was because of my activity, and i can tell you right now that it had nothing to do with me being a vigilante instead of vanilla town. my activity would have bene exactlyt he same.

[Mathdino]

Spoiler: Am I wall v wallposting with NSG now? My comments in bold

here have a lolcase

Hi North

VOTE: NSG

Pedit kind of? I like them.

hey cheeky! can we finally have a game where we're both town again?

rvs vote, or serious? you mentioned a few other suspects you had, why vote me?

oh boy this line of questioning doesn't get anywhere

it doesn't go anywhere because cheeky answers in

the very next post

. i don't think there's any useful further avenues of questioning with regards to her response – do you think there were and me not thinking of them makes me scum?

No. But you made that post 6 pages into the game. There was NOTHING better to comment on?

Thinking about it I have a theory about scumplay in this game but I'll hold it cos I wanna see if anyone plays like I would expect scum to

i actually think i know exactly what you're saying

but i would also play like that as town (if not more likely to)

and i think you know this about me

Why do you think I'm talking specifically about you

math, did you ever answer this?

prodding me to answer a jokey question, so pro-town

how is that a "jokey" question and how is me asking you to answer it in any way scum-indicative?

The emoji made me assume it was non-serious. But you didn't seem to use it to read me. Surely by page 6 there's something more interesting than asking me to answer someone else's question?

i don't really like the idea of policy lynching just to set up for future games – it feels kind of weird, like playing towards a future wincondition or something. not even a future wincondition, but maybe even just sacrificing parts of this game to have a potentially better next game. i'd really rather just lynch scumreads.

doesn't it also assume that whoever we're policy lynching is on the losing team for this game?

Yeah but he didn't say this specifically. What he said was scummy af. 1. He used rolling town as a reason. 2. He want's you lynched before LYLO which could mean you're not one of the first two people lynched who would be knocked out.

what do you mean by 2? i don't really get what you're saying here.

half the words she typed out for the game thus far has been fluff, meaningless "i don't like how you're playing the game", and casual disapproval of the claiming strategy

people were talking about policy lynches and playing towards the future games... so

I

talked about those things. You can't call that meaningless when that's what the current topic of discussion was.

No, you talked about those things from an objective top-down view of the gamestate. You noted that you didn't like the idea of it because it feels weird. That's NAI. And if you'd rather lynch scumreads, it didn't help that

you didn't seem to have scumreads

.

tl;dr NSG's only examples of complex thought thus far has been
- Paranoia of me townreading her, which she knows gets me to townread her.
- Clear dismay at me being potentially conftown by modspew.

My being paranoid of you having bad reasons to townread you is in literally no way a scumtell, unless i'm meant to just stay silent on it and let you fake townread me whenever you're scum. You're also talking a level 0 view of what i would do as scum and assuming that i have a level 0 view of the way you develop reads in the first place. Is "math made a huge deal about this towntell that he was looking for in this game that just finished so i'll do it this time" a real thought that you think i would have as scum?

Quote where you think i display "dismay" at the mod thing.

I didn't say it was a scumtell. It's just not a towntell, which I've already discussed. Even disregarding Tit for Tat, I think you would have to agree that scum-you obviously fakes paranoia if I just call you town for no reason after you were playing consistently with your scumgame.

i agree and that was actually my first thought upon seeing this. i'm hesitant to really use that to influence my read too much but i'd be inclined to say that it almost mod-spews you as town, given that policy lynches on town as scum would still advance scum wincondition.

Your hesitance to use that as a part of your read in my mind is trying to avoid having to locktown me.

[Mathdino]

You were still advancing the gamestate in Tit for Tat early game. The reaction test failed, yes, but I didn't expect it to fail. I didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with your ISO early game like I do now.

The spreadsheet didn't work because you play like scum when you're a PR.

This right now is something like the third time i've actually sat down to look at this game. you're literally just trying to activity tell me again, but with proxies for activity rather than just post count itself.

the only reason you think i played like scum that game was because of my activity, and i can tell you right now that it had nothing to do with me being a vigilante instead of vanilla town. my activity would have bene exactlyt he same.

You would have completely ignored that game while posting all over the place in

every other thread you were a part of?

You'd have to be insane to not agree that THAT level of activity disparity is alignment indicative for plenty of players.

Right now I'm accusing you of active lurking, not lurking.

[northsidegal]

i mean, if this is the way it has to be.

No. But you made that post 6 pages into the game. There was NOTHING better to comment on?

i wanted to say hello to cheeky and ask her about her vote, which seemed strange to me. me and cheeky have kind of a history of games together where, for one reason or another, we don't actually really get to play together – i figured that wouldn't be the case here.

and yeah, most of what was being discussed up to that point was whether or not it was a good idea to policy lynch bambietta, so seeing cheeky and her seemingly inconsistent vote

was

the most interesting thing to me at the time.

The emoji made me assume it was non-serious. But you didn't seem to use it to read me. Surely by page 6 there's something more interesting than asking me to answer someone else's question?

Are you saying i

shouldn't

have asked the question? What? You two were being cryptic about something, i was curious about your answer to what he had said.

Do you think there was some read on you to be gleamed off of that interaction? If yes, what? If no, then how are you using it as a point against me that this totally random interaction (which i would never think is anything but nai) is something that i would have based a read off of as town?

No, you talked about those things from an objective top-down view of the gamestate. You noted that you didn't like the idea of it because it feels weird. That's NAI. And if you'd rather lynch scumreads, it didn't help that you didn't seem to have scumreads.

i'm not seeing a reason that i'm scum here.

I didn't say it was a scumtell. It's just not a towntell, which I've already discussed. Even disregarding Tit for Tat, I think you would have to agree that scum-you obviously fakes paranoia if I just call you town for no reason after you were playing consistently with your scumgame.

i mean, i personally think i would have gone for the one level deeper play and not have mentioned it, but i don't think that actually matters – again, you voting me at this stage in the game for doing things that aren't strong enough towntells to you is terrible.

Your hesitance to use that as a part of your read in my mind is trying to avoid having to locktown me.

"

having

to locktown you"

[northsidegal]

You were still advancing the gamestate in Tit for Tat early game. The reaction test failed, yes, but I didn't expect it to fail. I didn't think there was anything particularly wrong with your ISO early game like I do now.

The spreadsheet didn't work because you play like scum when you're a PR.

This right now is something like the third time i've actually sat down to look at this game. you're literally just trying to activity tell me again, but with proxies for activity rather than just post count itself.

the only reason you think i played like scum that game was because of my activity, and i can tell you right now that it had nothing to do with me being a vigilante instead of vanilla town. my activity would have bene exactlyt he same.

You would have completely ignored that game while posting all over the place in

every other thread you were a part of?

You'd have to be insane to not agree that THAT level of activity disparity is alignment indicative for plenty of players.

Right now I'm accusing you of active lurking, not lurking.

I'm telling you right now that "oh i'm the vig, i'll ignore this thread for a while" is

never

a thought process that i have. I tried it once in c9++ and got shot night one as the cop. i remember you saying that i was posting in every other thread but i also remember slightly doubting if that were true. check newbie 1850 – that game was going on concurrently i believe, and i'm fairly sure that my activity was exactly the same.

so, do i have it right that you're admitting that you

are

trying to activity tell me?
VOTE: mathdino

[Bambietta Basterbine]

Votecount 1.5 (Bambi edition)

Mathdino

(4): PenguinPower, Bambietta Basterbine, CheekyTeeky, Northsidegal <------ (L-1)

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to achieve a lynch.

Deadline in (expired on 2018-03-26 09:00:00)

For clarity that we should not be hasty and accidentally hammer Dino. *Cough* *Cough* Not_Mafia *Cough*

[Mathdino]

Then unvote me if you care so much