Iceman Modeth - Mini 688 (GAME OVER!!!)

[Xtoxm]

Gah, I think i'm with G-Force for the moment.

Unvote

Thing is, I don't think I could live with it of we let him off as scum, and he goes on to win...And I can totally see Volkan pulling something like this as scum. I'll resevre my Claim/Don't Claim.

[bionicchop2]

Do any of your links contain games where she quit as town? I already knew she was a poor player and I don't care to read more examples of her playing poorly. It is the quitting whenever she is not town and somebody puts heat on her (yes you can have heat without votes).

It's interesting that you of all people are asking me this - it shows the level of homework done by my accusers. I admit I haven't looked at all her games yet, and only the two you identify are where I can see that she actually voiced a quit

My 'homework' has shown no such game where she has a little hissy fit and leaves as town, hence the question for you. If you found something I did no, then it is your responsibility to enlighten me.

However, your question is entirely ill-conceived. You're presuming an alignment link (in one game and I am trying to find it, after the game, she even said something like "I like being mafia") with her actively quitting (as opposed to lurking off), but of course the other link to draw is that, when she quits, she is pressured for her inactivity. Otherwise she just gives up on her own and lurks off. The point here is that she abandons games regularly - something that you all ignored. It's pretty damn clear her lurking is intentional.

I don't doubt she likes being mafia. I also don't doubt she throws a hissy fit when she is called out for lurking and twice it has shown her to be anti-town. Any examples where she is town and did the same would help balance this (see original request). If a player does 'x' twice and both times turns out to be scum, then 'x' generally becomes a scum tell. There is limited information to work with in the world of mafia. Repeated behavior when one is not town (and behavior which is not present when the player is town) is a pretty good indicator of alignment.

What confuses me is there is no good reason for anybody to unvote, so your request for this to happen is very odd. Most claims are done at L-2 or L-1 without the removal of votes. The fact vollkan is stating it in a manner where he won't claim unless someone unvotes is doing nothing to persuade me.

1) You don't need a "good reason" to unvote. You just need to have your attacks rebutted. NOBODY has refuted what I have said. In other words, the wagon on me is effectively baseless.

2) You are twisting my words. My position on claiming was fairly simple: I wanted to hear people's reactions to my defence. I'm of the view that, if prospects of a successful defence are strong, then claiming is not an immediate priority. I said nothing about people unvoting.

1) Reasons to unvote are just as important as reasons to vote.

2) Read the rest of the thread. I corrected myself on this statement.

I see where she lurks and gets replaced in games (maybe mods should just not allow her to join), but I only see one instance of her getting pissed and asking to replace out when she is called on her lack of activity - in that case she was certainly not town.

So what? You're now basically shifting the entire ground of your case to nothing more than the fact that she has previously quit as scum. As I have said, rather than drawing an alignment link, there are other reasonable explanations when you look at things more globally - most obviously that she doesn't like being pressured to post.

We don't have evidence of a consistent meta trend that says she only "quits" as scum. We have two games which, as I have indicated, have circumstances which make them very dubious evidence for the proposition your case rests upon.

This is more evidence than there is against any other player. I don't expect to find fingerprints, a smoking gun, a photo of a player holding an "I am mafia" sign or anything like that. I look for indicators that a player is more likely to be scum than any other player. Right now that is you based on the behavior of your predecessor.

Could people make a post consisting of

Claim

or

Don't claim

to decide how to deal with this. I object to claiming if the case against me is weak and, right now, it is on dialysis, to say the least.

It is your call on how you need to act. Depends which action you feel helps the town more. Surveying others for how you should act? I can tell you I likely won't unvote if there is no claim. We have a deadline in 3 days (+x) and there is no other wagon equally appealing.

[G-Force]

Wait, since when is there a deadline?

[Xtoxm]

Huh? Pretty sure we are not deadlined.

Are you mixing up your games, Bio?

You play with me too much...

[vollkan]

My 'homework' has shown no such game where she has a little hissy fit and leaves as town, hence the question for you. If you found something I did no, then it is your responsibility to enlighten me.

Yeah, but it strikes me as very misleading to paint it as though she only leaves games when she is scum under heat. You were totally wrong about the "heat" bit, and I've shown that she doesn't just leave games as scum

I don't doubt she likes being mafia. I also don't doubt she throws a hissy fit when she is called out for lurking and twice it has shown her to be anti-town. Any examples where she is town and did the same would help balance this (see original request). If a player does 'x' twice and both times turns out to be scum, then 'x' generally becomes a scum tell. There is limited information to work with in the world of mafia. Repeated behavior when one is not town (and behavior which is not present when the player is town) is a pretty good indicator of alignment.

You're ignoring my point - where she quits, the common element is that she is under pressure for lurking. Your whole argument depends on saying that "the reason she is quitting is because she is scum who is worried" when that's basically just a cherry-picked interpretation, based only on two games, which ignores the fact that she abandons regularly and just happens to tend to quit when people call her out for lurking (which, by coincidence, occurred in two games where she was scum).

In short: You have not at all shown that there is a causal link between her quitting and her being scum. You've shown that the two occurred in the same games but, as I have made clear, your argument depends on making one assumption when there are other explanations (ie. she doesn't like being pressured for lurking) which are more consistent with her general style of play (that she likes being mafia and hates having to post content).

1) Reasons to unvote are just as important as reasons to vote.

No. The onus is always on the person who votes to justify their vote. If you cannot defend having a vote upon somebody (ie. if you lack a vote-worthy case) then the only reasonable thing to do is unvote.

It is your call on how you need to act. Depends which action you feel helps the town more. Surveying others for how you should act?

This is really twisting what I said. I am not "surveying others". I'm saying that "I am not going to claim unless there are good reasons to do so" (ie. imminent danger of lynch). The ONLY way that danger can be judged is based on the opinion of other people. I have my own view of the case against me, but it would be wrong of me to refuse claiming until the very end just because I held that view.

I can tell you I likely won't unvote if there is no claim.

Your vote has no basis behind it other than, effectively, an assumption of scumminess. Any reasonable person would unvote, and CKD and Xtoxm already have. You are basically just being obstinate here.

We have a deadline in 3 days (+x) and there is no other wagon equally appealing.

I am more sympathetic to this; I appreciate that having an impending deadline forces awkward choices. But, since the case against me is dismally weak, surely there has been some other person who has committed scummy actions? (I am asking genuinely - I haven't read the game yet)

[vollkan]

Cross-posted.

No deadline? Great. That helps us avoid being forced into difficult choices.

[mrfixij]

Alright, as of now I can really get behind a bg/vollkan lynch.

I'm really not liking the mason claim,

but I think vollkan is a higher priority right now, ESPECIALLY considering the meta we now have on BG.

Rhinox I've noticed did some speculating on the setup of the game, which is something I never advocate. Any suspicion I would have on him would be based solely on policy though, which I'm trying to cut down on after being called out for it in several other games.

There's an exchange around post 251 - 253 which suggests a very moderate chance of a pairing between Gforce and BionicChop. I think I'm just reaching here, but I'm never one to keep suspicions to myself.

This was all just on a very brief read-through. I took a few notes as to areas I want to read more in-depth, and will post additional thoughts once I get more time to.

I'm not really a big fan of pyrodwarf right now. I just went back through his posts so far in the game, and he currently has 21 posts. As it is, most of his posts are very... insubstantial. He repeatedly places crosshairs on EA, but fails to press him and basically leaves a vote on him as a "lol IGMEOY" thing.

He tried to discount the mason claim.

As soon as EA calls pyro out on his attack, pyro changes his line of questioning to X and CKD, but again fails to press them and simply asks superficial questions. He has very short posts, with the exception of this most recent one, which is for all intents and purposes a suspicion list.

emphasis mine

So you don't like the mason claim, but you suspect PyroDwarf for trying to discount it? Incidentally, why don't you like the mason claim? I have my suspicions od Pyro myself, and I could see this as scum bussing. My vote was already on Juls, and I'm quite happy leaving it on her replacement.

Indeed, I don't like the mason claim. But I think it's nowhere near the top priority of suspicion. That's one of the things that I need to go back and take another look at. But I've stated my dislike for it, which is different from trying to discredit it. Considering the length and content of pyro's post when he mentioned it, it is obvious that a primary point of 1/21st of his material (just under 5%) is to express a distaste and disbelief for the mason claim. Whereas I, in roughly 3 posts mentioned it once in passing in a quick synopsis of my first impressions of the thread.

[Xtoxm]

You don't like the mason claim?

You mean, you don't like the fact you've lost two of your planned mislynches?

I am suspicious of these people trying to STILL say me and RBT are scum.

Potentially a better lynch than Volkan, perhaps....

[mrfixij]

You don't like the mason claim?

You mean, you don't like the fact you've lost two of your planned mislynches?

I am suspicious of these people trying to STILL say me and RBT are scum.

Potentially a better lynch than Volkan, perhaps....

Rhetorical question. Given that masons are mafia without a nightkill (and win with town), you can see just how convenient a mason claim is for scum. At the moment, I think it clears, but masons being outed always gives me a funny feeling.

Also X, why did you pull your vote if all rationale in your post supports keeping it? I don't mean to accuse you, that just doesn't make any sense to me.

I'm starting to get a lot of crosstalk on my scumdar just on this page alone. And I think it all really revolves around who believes and is willing to accept the mason claim. Or perhaps just who remembers it. I think it should take a backburner for now.

[Xtoxm]

Mason is one of the worst claims for mafia to make, and it's nothing like being mafia.

Because I felt like it.

[bionicchop2]

for sure

unvote:pyro ; vote:vollkan

.

Obviously you will be given a chance to say what you can to try to salvage the day for yourself. 2 links of examples where she quit as scum when there was heat put on her is pretty damning.

"heat put on her"? Really? Because, from where I am sitting, there was very little suspicion on her in both of those games and her quitting basically just reflects her laziness and inability to read up. It spins a nice story to make out she cracks under pressure, but you ignore all facts.

Vollkan, your story has changed from your original post. When I made the statement that she quits as scum when pressure was put on her, you questioned that and said there was no pressure on her. Now your basic argument is that she quits when pressured, not that she quits when scum. Please clarify which argument you plan on using to defend yourself, because it is very hard to debate against a shifting argument.

VOTE COUNT:

vollkan - 5: orangepenguin, Riceballtail, mrfixij, bionicchop2, Erratus Apathos
orangepenguin - 1: babygirl86
mrfixij - 1: G-Force

Not voting: Rhinox, Scheherazade, PyroDwarf, Xtoxm, curiouskarmadog

7 votes makes a lynch.

[vollkan]

You haven't been paying attention to what I have been saying.

I said she quits when pressure is placed upon her to post - (because of said pressure, not because of alignment). As opposed to where suspicion pressure is placed upon her.

[bionicchop2]

Huh? Pretty sure we are not deadlined.

Are you mixing up your games, Bio?

You play with me too much...

Yes. The deadline is in Haschel's game. I was thinking as I drove back to work from lunch that I was going to mix those two specific games up. Little did I know I had already done it during lunch. Having trouble keeping straight which game you and RBT are masons in and which game you guys are just playing poorly

[bionicchop2]

You haven't been paying attention to what I have been saying.

I said she quits when pressure is placed upon her to post - (because of said pressure, not because of alignment). As opposed to where suspicion pressure is placed upon her.

The game where she called everybody an ass for suspecting her even though mellow was doing the same thing is quitting because she was pressured to post?

[bionicchop2]

Before you get semantic on me, she didn't actually call anybody an ass. The actual phrase was 'screw you people'.

[vollkan]

You haven't been paying attention to what I have been saying.

I said she quits when pressure is placed upon her to post - (because of said pressure, not because of alignment). As opposed to where suspicion pressure is placed upon her.

The game where she called everybody an ass for suspecting her even though mellow was doing the same thing is quitting because she was pressured to post?

What game are you talking about?

I've already shown that she wasn't under suspicion in either of the two games. She was under pressure to post, however, and her snapping fits perfectly with the fact she is generally a crap player. Here, we have the same thing, she gets pressured to post and then snaps because she doesn't want to.

[bionicchop2]

She got voted once and called scum. She then flipped out and quite.

Hi there. 'Lay, so, I'm going to open my posting in this game with a vote: babygirl86, on account of her lack of an explanation for her hammer on Zombie yesterday, plus teh generally lurkerish way she appears to have played the game so far. She's the scummiest player here, in my estimation.

A) you must not know how to read because I've explained my actions numerous times. and B) I'm not gonna say this is right, but I'm definately not the only person not posting here so dont even go there. I have a life outside of mafia and if my amount of posting isn't up to your standards, deal with it. I'm not changing my lifestyle to get a vote taken off of me.

Point out to me exactly where you actually made a case against Zombie. Or indeed mentioned him before voting for him. Or did anything other than jump on a wagon without explanation. Then decide to post genuine content other than filler on the rare occasions you post. I mean, it's okay to be too busy to post often as long as you actually help. You aren't.

you know what? screw you people.

mod please replace me

[Scheherazade]

What game are you talking about?

I've already shown that she wasn't under suspicion in either of the two games. She was under pressure to post, however, and her snapping fits perfectly with the fact she is generally a crap player. Here, we have the same thing, she gets pressured to post and then snaps because she doesn't want to.

Sorry to jump in, but in Amish Mafia...

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8148

...she made that statement. She was suspected for her game play, but not enough to get more than two or three votes. People just looked at the more active players and were content to let her slide under the radar. When they finally started questioning her harder, she "blew up."

So, lurking to avoid suspicion and blowing up as soon as votes started to pile on her.

I'm not really liking how you took Mellowed Man's post out of context to prove that there was no pressure on her.

[PyroDwarf]

I'm known for my policy rants, and I'll try to keep this one short, but at no stage in the game, save for possibly lylo, is a list of all players and your thoughts on them a good thing.

it helps me organize my thoughts, i suppose i could just put em on a note pad, but i'd feel like a geek.
I'm not trying to discrdit the mason claim, just at the time they came out, they were both pretty high on people's lists. It was just a shock to me.

[bionicchop2]

Juls/mrfixij: I was leaning scum on her,

tbh

. Her page 4 summary was not very helpful, seemd liked forced scum hunting. SHe focuses on the mason team, then on the vig. G-force puts on some pressure about her leaving her vote on OP, then she quits. Mrfixij has one post, and its good, so we shall see.

CKD - I underlined something for you (although your rant about the phrase being a scum tell may have only been because you were bussing your partner in the game I read)

It seems that a lot of people had Xtoxm and rbt in their crosshairs. I think BG was a good lynch candidate, but we have evidince where she plays bad on both sides of the scum-ball. I wanna see what people say about my list here before i place my vote. I got 2 people in mind.

My issue with your list is I can't tell at all who your suspects are on it. It pretty much reads like you think everybody is probably town.

At the end, you have 2 people in mind who you might vote for, but you are waiting for others to talk about your list. Why? Unless your vote is the hammer on somebody, get it out there and publicly express your suspicions.

[mrfixij]

Holy hell, didn't even notice this.

Wait, what? people are buying the mason claim? I'm not sure i understand. On N0, you guys picked someone at random to attack? Color me confused.
I have never been in a game with masons,how likely is it that they are both scum? Or would that just be way to huge of a gambit for scum to risk?

Juls/mrfixij: I was leaning scum on her, tbh. Her page 4 summary was not very helpful, seemd liked forced scum hunting.

SHe focuses on the mason team

, then on the vig. G-force puts on some pressure about her leaving her vote on OP, then she quits. Mrfixij has one post, and its good, so we shall see.

Bold for emphasis. Using a critique for my predecessor that he makes only 5 posts before. Explain yourself, now.

[bionicchop2]

Holy hell, didn't even notice this.

Wait, what? people are buying the mason claim? I'm not sure i understand. On N0, you guys picked someone at random to attack? Color me confused.
I have never been in a game with masons,how likely is it that they are both scum? Or would that just be way to huge of a gambit for scum to risk?

Juls/mrfixij: I was leaning scum on her, tbh. Her page 4 summary was not very helpful, seemd liked forced scum hunting.

SHe focuses on the mason team

, then on the vig. G-force puts on some pressure about her leaving her vote on OP, then she quits. Mrfixij has one post, and its good, so we shall see.

Bold for emphasis. Using a critique for my predecessor that he makes only 5 posts before. Explain yourself, now.

I am obviously in the 'pyro for scum' fan club, but I think this post from you is off. For one, this is kind of a twist on the same thing you were called out for by G-Force. Also, I actually understand what he was saying in the first post because (I think) RBT made a sarcastic post about being scum and bussing each other which could have been confusing if you don't realize it is sarcasm. I mentioned him missing the sarcasm in my PbPa of Pyro. I think in this case it was pretty obvious the post by RBT just went over his head and I am not sure what you are trying to point out here.

[PyroDwarf]

well, bionic figured it out. once i reread rbt's post a few times, i said "ooooohhhhhh" like duh.thats why i was wondering what was going on.

Explain yourself, now.

relax yourself, please.

[mrfixij]

I am obviously in the 'pyro for scum' fan club, but I think this post from you is off. For one, this is kind of a twist on the same thing you were called out for by G-Force. Also, I actually understand what he was saying in the first post because (I think) RBT made a sarcastic post about being scum and bussing each other which could have been confusing if you don't realize it is sarcasm. I mentioned him missing the sarcasm in my PbPa of Pyro. I think in this case it was pretty obvious the post by RBT just went over his head and I am not sure what you are trying to point out here.

I find the difference in tone and context between my statement about the masons and his to be substantial enough to make them almost apples and oranges. He made it seem that the mason claim was irrational to accept, and expressed astonishment that anyone was buying it. I expressed a general distaste for it, which is completely due to a lack of personal experience with all things mason (Of course, a game I co-host has a mason group recruiter get NK'd N1.) Also, I expressed more in my criticism of Pyro than simply the mason debacle, but the tone and eagerness to lynch the claimed masons is much more drastic than my synopsis where I state a dislike of the claim.

In the end, I stick to my guns in saying that the two are a difference of degree.

[vollkan]

She got voted once and called scum. She then flipped out and quite.

Hi there. 'Lay, so, I'm going to open my posting in this game with a vote: babygirl86, on account of her lack of an explanation for her hammer on Zombie yesterday, plus teh generally lurkerish way she appears to have played the game so far. She's the scummiest player here, in my estimation.

A) you must not know how to read because I've explained my actions numerous times. and B) I'm not gonna say this is right, but I'm definately not the only person not posting here so dont even go there. I have a life outside of mafia and if my amount of posting isn't up to your standards, deal with it. I'm not changing my lifestyle to get a vote taken off of me.

Point out to me exactly where you actually made a case against Zombie. Or indeed mentioned him before voting for him. Or did anything other than jump on a wagon without explanation. Then decide to post genuine content other than filler on the rare occasions you post. I mean, it's okay to be too busy to post often as long as you actually help. You aren't.

you know what? screw you people.

mod please replace me

I forgot the vote by Dizzy (I was wrong to say she didn't have a single vote), but I wrote what I did before in knowledge of his post. Dizzy's post is just my point - the pressure on BG was not "suspicion" in the usual sense of the term. As you identify, she did get called out - but that's just it: as I keep saying and you don't seem to be understanding, the attack was centred on her level of posting (rather than the actual substance of what she had said). That she is a lazy player. As Mellowman said, and I quoted before, she wasn't under pressure - by any standard there were no arguments against her. It was just that people wanted her to post.

I'm not really liking how you took Mellowed Man's post out of context to prove that there was no pressure on her.

It doesn't seem to just be Dizzy that is misunderstanding me...

It is clear that BG was under attack for her failure to post. As Mellowed rightly says, she was under no "pressure" (I use inverted commas to indicate I am quoting Mellow). There was certainly pressure on her to post and pressure on her for her failure to post (this has been central to my argument from the beginning). But that's just it - it was pressure attacking something she had said - it was pressure directed at her lack of saying anything. It was the same thing as in Family Guy - she blew up when she gets forced to post.