Mini 971: Princess bride - They all lived .......

[ekiM]

Got any previous games where you were an investigative role, Shovel?

[ekiM]

I don't have any problem believing Grandfather is in the game. I'm less happy with him being a cop with no given flavor justification. I don't see that we can lynch a claimed cop without something being more seriously wrong with the claim though.

The only lynch I will be happy with at this point is ekiM's.

I am tunneling, yes.

Narrating your anti-town behavior doesn't somehow make it acceptable.

It's a fallacy to say that because I've done something as scum it means I wouldn't do it as town. I do actually believe that if someone comes out with role-related info as Jack did they're probably not scum sacrificing themselves to take out one guy. The difference between this game and Muppets is that there the cop was too careless to note the obvious hints that he was paranoid. I doubted Jack would claim info unless he thought it was solid. I trust his competence at this game so I deferred to him and was willing to follow his claimed power role. You haven't explained why anyone wouldn't. Yes, I've seen town roles get bad info before. That doesn't mean I discard claimed info out of hand.

I don't know what read you're saying I'm going back on. I don't have any particular reason to think you're town. Asserting that anyone who suspects you is stupid isn't actually persuasive to me.

The fact that you've seen cops and other power roles get bad info means you shouldn't blindly follow them as you've done in this game (and this assumes a truthful claim which given Jack's erratic and aggresive style isn't a very safe assumption). You take your time to get the full truth instead of cravenly rushing to hide behind someone else's claim. And no, you didn't flop on a town read of me, but you did show a certain reticence and skepticism to my wagon that still makes your sudden conversion suspcious.

Everyone is aware that investigative roles can get bad info. That doesn't make it irrational to sometimes decide to follow claimed results. Especially in a pseudo-D1 with little information to go on due to the SK quicklynch. Saying that because I've seen you be implicated by bad info before I should be especially wary of it happening to you again is a bad argument.

Also, if I were lying about my beliefs, wouldn't I have been acutely aware that you'd remember Muppets and call me out for my skullduggery? So it must be the case that I do actually believe what I'm saying.

[ekiM]

Speaking of which, Shovel your vote for me is ill-placed. You're voting me for following Jack, which is something you should be OK with seeing as you did too. We only have a day and a half until deadline so who are you going to vote for?

[MacavityLock]

I considered Jack but I knew I wouldn't be able to breadcrumb an "Innocent"-result on Jack.

Yes, what does this mean?

Unvote. Vote: horror

Jack, you need to start providing actual content tomorrow.

[horrordude0215]

LOL, Macavity, why the sudden jump on a bandwagon with no reason?

[Jack]

Speaking of which, Shovel your vote for me is ill-placed. You're voting me for following Jack, which is something you should be OK with seeing as you did too. We only have a day and a half until deadline so who are you going to vote for?

He also was ok with following me despite supposedly being an information role himself...

[ekiM]

Oh wow, good point. Shovel what were you thinking Jack was doing then when you followed him?

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

Got any previous games where you were an investigative role, Shovel?

I only have a couple of finished games on this account - I was a cop in one, but I died the first night, so I very much doubt you'll be able to get anything useful out of Open 210. I can dig up some of my old games, but I'm not sure how representative those are (they're all at least 2 years old).

Speaking of which, Shovel your vote for me is ill-placed. You're voting me for following Jack, which is something you should be OK with seeing as you did too. We only have a day and a half until deadline so who are you going to vote for?

1) That's not my only reason for voting for you (and I don't like that you're implying that it's THE reason I'm voting for you). There was a dialogue between you and Parama earlier that felt off to me.
2) The same action by 2 different players can still be interpreted very differently. I agree with the argument that the vote was out of place for you while I know that vote was not out of the ordinary for me.

I considered Jack but I knew I wouldn't be able to breadcrumb an "Innocent"-result on Jack.

Yes, what does this mean?

Clearly being able to breadcrumb my result effectively is a boon to the town. I felt I would be able to do that if I investigated ckd, whereas it would've been very difficult if I investigated Jack.

Oh wow, good point. Shovel what were you thinking Jack was doing then when you followed him?

Hmm? I don't see why there can't be multiple information roles. The way Jack went about it didn't exactly suggest cop either.

[curiouskarmadog]

this is probably old news (question)

Jack if you have role related information that DDD is scum, why are you voting someone else?

(think i am missing something)

[curiouskarmadog]

Speaking of which, Shovel your vote for me is ill-placed. You're voting me for following Jack, which is something you should be OK with seeing as you did too. We only have a day and a half until deadline so who are you going to vote for?

He also was ok with following me despite supposedly being an information role himself...

Oh wow, good point. Shovel what were you thinking Jack was doing then when you followed him?

what is the good point?..I think I missing it.

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

List of games where I had an investigative role (I'm CES):
Methodical naive cop in Methodical Mafia, which had 2 other Cops.
Tracker in Mostly Mute Haiku Mafia. (Each post had to be in haiku form.)
One-third of a Cop-Doc-something Masonry in Diablo Mafia. I was also replaced about halfway in.
SK Tracker in the first Smalltown. I basically got caught Night 0.
Cop in Newbie 232.
Doc/Cop in Raj's Freaktown III. I didn't last long.

I believe those are all of my investigative roles. I'd be greatly surprised if you got anything useful out of it though.

[MacavityLock]

LOL, Macavity, why the sudden jump on a bandwagon with no reason?

Intro post was pretty horrible, not much original thought there at all. Weak vote on Jack. Shitting on a claim for flavor is a crappy reason to question. (Especially when it doesn't seem like that big of a leap to me.)

Also, we're quickly approaching deadline, and I find the ekiM wagon to be pretty awful. I haven't seen a real reason for anybody to be on it, expect for DDD's. (I understand DDD's stance on ekiM, but do not agree with it. I was actually scumbuddies with ekiM in the referenced Muppets game, so I see where DDD is coming from, but I do think there is a difference in the play.) Uncountered claimed cop SPS is not the play today. That means you, horror.

----

I considered Jack but I knew I wouldn't be able to breadcrumb an "Innocent"-result on Jack.

Yes, what does this mean?

Clearly being able to breadcrumb my result effectively is a boon to the town. I felt I would be able to do that if I investigated ckd, whereas it would've been very difficult if I investigated Jack.

I get the What, now tell me Why. Why would it have been difficult to breadcrumb a result on Jack? Why would you assume that you'd have to breadcrumb an "Innocent"?

[horrordude0215]

All I ask is that you let me claim, and then lynch someone else.

[Steam-Powered Shovel]

Because I really don't know Jack well enough to be able to discern alignment from his erratic and aggressive play. I'm fairly sure calling Jack town would've looked out of place and I would've expected Jack to pounce on it (and with good reason).

As to your second question, I wouldn't breadcrumb a guilty, I'd just announce it (I might wait, say, a week, but I wouldn't breadcrumb.)

[farside22]

Vote count

ekiM (3) Parama, Steam Powered Shovel, Debonair Danny DiPietro
SPS (1) CryMeARiver
Jack (1) Horrordude

Horrordude (4) Jack, ekiM, Kmd4390, MacavityLock

Not voting:

curiouskarmadog

with 10 alive it will take 6 to lynch
Deadline is June 7, 7:30am PST

[Kmd4390]

I dont believe the claim....grandfather wasnt even a character in the story, he was the narrator, doesnt makes sense (but that is just flavor crap), it is an easy claim, because no one would be that character (because it is not a character)

we need to lynch SPS today.

SPS, please provide said crumb.

Um.

You've been around long enough to know we don't lynch a claimed cop in a game with a claimed miller implying a real cop unless we see a counterclaim, a cop flip, or find out the claimed miller is scum.

----------------

Shovel, no, scum don't always have safeclaims. Depends on the Mod. In Farside's case, there generally aren't safeclaims, but the scum do tend to be roles that you wouldn't expect flavor wise.

And yes, Horror, it's WIFOM. Deal with it.

I'm CES

Oh shit. This changes things. And kind of explains why my newbscumtell I thought I saw earlier seems to have been wrong based on my VCA TM.

[curiouskarmadog]

Vote count

ekiM (3) Parama, Steam Powered Shovel, Debonair Danny DiPietro
SPS (2) curiouskarmadog, CryMeARiver
Jack (1) Horrordude

Horrordude (4) Jack, ekiM, Kmd4390, MacavityLock

Not voting:


with 10 alive it will take 6 to lynch
Deadline is June 7, 7:30am PST

dear, I unvoted in 373

Fixed

[ekiM]

Speaking of which, Shovel your vote for me is ill-placed. You're voting me for following Jack, which is something you should be OK with seeing as you did too. We only have a day and a half until deadline so who are you going to vote for?

1) That's not my only reason for voting for you (and I don't like that you're implying that it's THE reason I'm voting for you).

Oh right, I'm sneakily trying to brainwash you by telling you you only have one reason for voting for me. Because that would work. No, I just forgot about your earlier reason. Come on.

There was a dialogue between you and Parama earlier that felt off to me.

Yeah, but your reasoning for why it's off is just weak sauce.

"I don't like ekiM's part in the exchange between him and Parama at the bottom of page 9. Why wait so long with the vote? It's fairly clear where it's going and if Parama had suddenly decided to deny it, that would be genuinely suspicious. ekiM seems more concerned about looking justified in voting for Parama here."

Here's what I said then, which you never responded to:

"I don't understand why SPS is voting for me. I noticed what KMD said about the way Parama got on the Sens wagon, then while Parama was online at the same time as me I quizzed him about it to see if there was any explanation. He didn't have one so I voted for him. Probably if I voted Parama before the conversation he would just start bitching instead of engaging, like he's done for most of the game."

2) The same action by 2 different players can still be interpreted very differently. I agree with the argument that the vote was out of place for you while I know that vote was not out of the ordinary for me.

You can say you "agree with the argument" but you've not said what's convincing about it. You've been linked to one game as scum where I followed a power role's claimed info. How does this mean ever following claimd info is "out of place" for me? It doesn't; it isn't. And Macavity who was also in that game doesn't seem to find the argument compelling.

Do you have any other suspicions at all at this point? After three-and-a-bit weeks?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Also, if I were lying about my beliefs, wouldn't I have been acutely aware that you'd remember Muppets and call me out for my skullduggery? So it must be the case that I do actually believe what I'm saying.

Isn't this just straight up WIFOM? Here's nearly half a dozen thought process that could've justified your behavior in your mind...

1) Because you forgot you did the exact same thing in Muppets and thus thought the play was safe.
2) Because you knew you were doing the same thing as in Muppets, but you hoped I wouldn't remember it.
3) Because you knew you were doing the same thing as in Muppets, but you were hoping for my quicklynch and thus I wouldn't be able to object anyways.
4) Because you knew you were doing the same thing as in Muppets, but you figured you could argue that the move was technically correct even if it wasn't.
5) Because you knew you were doing the same thing as in Muppets, but you figured you could shake suspicion because of the WIFOM potential.

So, no, I'm not exactly buying the WIFOM back door you've left yourself as a sufficient defense of your play.

[Parama]

Mmk I finally finished those read things. Did the best parts all in one sitting.

Separated into separate posts so each player has an easier time responding.

CKD:

I believe the Miller claim, that being said I have seen Kubai Khan (sp?) do the exact same thing as scum....so by claiming Miller, most likely menas ML wont see the end of game. But that was just the luck of the draw, claiming miller was the right move (if he really is a miller). ML is not the lynch today....however, that isnt a pass for the whole game (but you should know that).

This is an excuse to go back and lynch the miller claim later while leaving them alive today. I don't like this sort of thing, leaving yourself open to a lynch based solely on a claim.

Sens is useless...I have never been in a game with him that he was anything but. Was hoping that his time away from mafiascum his playstyle had changed. But no...lurky (in other games)....gets replaced out of games only to sign up for new ones...and now a self vote.

all that aside, do i think Sensscum would self vote? Yeah...i think he would. Just as much as I think he would as town.

I am fine with my vote right now.....

This argument is purely meta, and though it did lead to a scum lynch there's no reason in and of itself that meta justifies a vote on Sens.

also Sens, why are you avoiding your "policy lynch" of claimed millers?

and what about your policy of miller lynches?...why the change in this game?

Is this really that big of a deal? Seems like a meta thing, and he self-voted to ragequit anyways.

in the same way you "evaluated" everyone, could you do the same for yourself?

I don't see how this is a fair question... at all.

ekim...thanks, was curious what you would say about yourself when your "contributions" were on the same level as others you listed as "almost nothing"

Well what do you expect someone to say when you ask such an unfair question? How is someone supposed to properly evaluate oneself? Don't you expect that they'll think they're playing rather pro-town?
This just looks like an excuse to find something scummy since all you did D1 was push a Sens lynch.

Screw it, Parama can wait a day.

Unvote, Vote DDD

why wait a day?

Why not wait a day? Or five? <_<

there is no reason (especially after the events of yesterday AND the night kill) that you should say Para doesn’t need a wagon

You say this which implies you'd be fine with voting/wagoning me yet you do no such thing. Shouldn't your vote be on me if this is your conclusion?

There does seem to be a lot of genuine confusion on ckd's part though - misreading and correcting, thinking it's D1 when it's D2 etc. And genuine confusion tends to be a towntell.

Late addition: Godfather possibility aside, he’s town if SPS is town and still likely town if SPS is lying. (crazy theory for that second one that I can’t quite explain)

[Parama]

Wolf:

could also be a scum gambit though. Hard to tell one way or the other right now.

Trying to put doubt into the minds of townies... do not like. There's no reason not to believe a D1 miller claim - it doesn't detract or add to scumhunting anyways.

I'm gonna say that was a frustrated townie self hammer, I hope I am wrong though.

Scum would know this (though well Sens was SK but town as far as the mafia are concerned)

I like ekim's post, his last on specifically, getting good town vibes from him.

Which parts of the post? What points? This is incredibly vague and unhelpful.

I can see ekim's claim against you bv310. Ekim may have posted less, but he had one real good post out of his 4 that day here.

Your 6 posts were as ekim put were not "game relevant" other then your RVS vote.

Buddy up to ekiM more please. "ekiM is my god" NOPE NOT BUYING IT

Overall sporadic posting and seems fairly noncomittal as well, not liking wolf much.

Late: Replaced by CMAR who also hasn’t done a damn thing yet.

[Parama]

Kmd:

FoS Mac

for claiming to vote "semi" randomly. I think he's scum, but ekiM is scummier.

Gives a reason ML could be scum, doesn’t give one for ekiM, yet votes ekiM over ML. Classic FoS: Scumbuddy, Vote: Townie maneuver? Well that assumes ekiM isn’t scum though so <_<

What is scummy about Jack's play?

Still not seeing JackScum.

Here he asks about my read on Jack and give his own but doesn’t provide reasons other than “meta”. Weak.

ekiM, however, is legitimately scummy trying to stay in the background by jumping the main wagon and contributing to the popular joke.

Oh good he gave a reason, 9 posts after his vote.
And then there’s an awesome case in the next post. d(‘’d)

Unvote, Vote Parama

I trust VC Analysis TM over my reads.

Wait what happened to

Dear Town,

After we lynch ekiM, and the scum kill me tonight, I have a final request. My wish is that you guys lynch Steam-Powered Shovel tomorrow. Don't mourn the loss of me as I've grown ill and would be likely to pass soon anyway. Due to this illness, I've become very aware of the strong value of human life, including lives of those who have made bad choices. However, I must make an exception in Steam's case. The reason for this is that Steam, along with his partner in crime, ekiM, is guilty of conspiracy for murder and a takeover of our wonderful town. I believe in justice and will gladly give my own life for what is right. Do not let these murderer scumbags get away with this wrong doing. Be strong and do what is right after my death. I will be here for the remainder of the day to see to it that ekiM sees the gallows by nightfall.

Yours Truly,

Kmd.

You make great points about ekiM, then pull away because… vote count analysis? *headdesk*

Screw it, Parama can wait a day.

Unvote, Vote DDD

Just wondering, are you voting randomly now?

Why isn't Parama dead yet?

Unvote, Vote Parama

Guys, Parama is clearly the best lynch today.

Hey guys if you didn’t noticed Kmd hasn’t actually made any sort of case on me, his only reason is voting patterns.

Which I have found to be generally less useful than actual scumhunting.
So he’s not scumhunting. Neato.

Yeah Kmd just makes no sense at all, I can’t get a read because he’s just as likely town as scum but I hate how he’s stopped mentioning ekiM entirely after dedicating most of his long posts to ekiM.

Late:

Unvote, Vote Shovel

I hate this vote. He’s now more scummy than townie. Just… no. This was basically a bandwagon vote in order to draw out a claim. (see: horrordude but with an actual vote)

[Parama]

SPS:

Still like my Paramavote. Wolframnhart, with me!

Yay RVS. Asking someone else to vote with you during RVS is just as bad as asking someone to vote with you during any other time in the game though.

Parama, would you nightkill ani as scum?

Let's

vote: wolframnhart

.

First line is total WIFOM!
Second is total random voting! ...on day 2.

I think you're misinterpreting me; I don't think Parama is innocent, I just don't think he stands out. I see no reason to wagon Parama over wolf. And I ask both as town and as scum (I do it as scum because I know I do it as town).

Do you see a reason to wagon wolf, then? Do tell, because you really haven’t mentioned anything about him yet.

I don't like ekiM's part in the exchange between him and Parama at the bottom of page 9. Why wait so long with the vote? It's fairly clear where it's going and if Parama had suddenly decided to deny it, that would be genuinely suspicious. ekiM seems more concerned about looking justified in voting for Parama here.

Unvote, vote: ekiM

Guys, this is exactly the point of my posts on page 9 and throughout the game. I’m just flat-out telling the truth – yes, the truth may not be what you guys want to hear, but it’s better than lying. And SPS has picked up on that. And sees why ekiM is scum. He’s a pretty cool guy in that way.

Yay for role-related reasons!

Unvote, vote: DDD

That's L-1. Claim, DDD.

This just looks like a post to force a claim.

Overall SPS could also go both ways. But since he brings up a point I was trying to make against ekiM he’s getting town points from me.

Late addition: Cop claim. If he’s cop CKD is clear as well. And I believe him. Idiots trying to outguess the flavor need to hang. Glad to know I was right before he even claimed.

[Parama]

bvdude:

bv says basically nothing for all of D1. Great.
His only informative post (ISO 6) makes great points. And then he disappears forever.
Horror replaces in…

Debonair Danny DiPietro - Getting a scum read here. He has a total of 13 posts in a 12 page game, and I'm not seeing a lot of content. I also don't like the fact that he's trying to divert attention away from the Sens lynch wagon. Sure it was a self hammer, but there's usually

some

info you can get from the wagon, no? Thinking there's a scumbuddy there with him.

DDD, Requesting a claim.

1. Giving a reason that could apply to his slot for lynching DDD
2. Trying to draw out a claim.
3. Not voting on the wagon he's requesting a claim from

Yeah this is not a good combination to start on.

I think CKD is scum.

So why aren't you voting him?

Vote: Jack

Lazy reasoning alert

We still have another 4 days before lynch, Shovel... why are you trying to rush this?

Requesting a claim from you.

YOU'RE DOING IT AGAIN.
1. Requests claim
2. Doesn't vote or even FoS SPS

Just seems like he's trying to draw out all the claims... DO NOT WANT.

FoS: Horrordude

for now, I'm not voting until this entire series of posts is written up.

lolwat? All I did was request a claim!

Without finding SPS suspicious at all, yes.

Oh look, there’s the flavor speculation. Yeah that’s terrible.

Because I'm totally pro-town and lynching me would NOT be in your best interest

Waste of a post.

All I ask is that you let me claim, and then lynch someone else.

Waste of a post.

I wasn't paying attention before but I am totally seeing this wagon now. Could easily be a horror/ekiM team.

[Parama]

ML:

By the way, I'm a miller. I love milling. I mill the hell out of all the shit I can get my hands on. I will name claim if requested by a majority of players, or if someone gives me some compelling reason to do so.

Immediate miller claims are more pro-town than miller claims AFTER a cop has guilty on you, and there IS a claimed cop in this game so I'm inclined to believe this. The people who pushed for a policy lynch of a miller claim are just idiots.

Shovel, yesterday you were asking wolframnhart to follow you onto Para. Now you're voting for wolf. What, if anything has changed?

I often ask people to join me in bandwagonning early on in the game. There's no longer a Paramawagon and I see no particular reason to recreate one.

I was totally going to ask ekiM's question first, and I don't believe it's satisfactorily answered yet. Why ask wnh specifically for the follow?

Don't exactly like this buddying up to ekiM. Knowing my read on him... yeah this isn't exactly something I approve of.

They can't find a better reason to vote so they make stuff up to hold onto the only vote they can.

Why is scum any more likely to do this than town?

Trying to blow a valid point off as WIFOM, aren't we? Bad.

Parama, I actually have no problem with the reasons ekiM stated in terms of his vote on you. They're completely reasonable, in my opinion.

Oh really. You've never commented on them, and for all I know you don't even know them. This is more buddying and you seem to have no reasons of your own to suspect me other than that I am suspecting ekiM.

The recent ekiM-Parama debate convinces me to

Unvote. Vote: Parama

.

And you're not even going to comment on any of it or acknowledge what's being said. You're totally ekiM's buddy, aren't you?

If someone ccs my nameclaim then that makes them a real idiot, so I don't see why you wouldn't believe it.

Yeah, that. Laying it on a bit thick, I think.

Unvote. Vote: Shovel

.

Um. Reasons? I know you've said stuff in the past but you didn't seem to have genuine suspicion... and now you're changing without a reason either.

This turn of events does not surprise me.

Unvote. Vote: DDD

.

wagon wagon wagon wagon wagon
When have you even MENTIONED DDD before? You haven't! You're not even going to question Jack's claimed info?

Why aren't there more Shovel votes?

BWAHAHAHA you're not voting Shovel at the time you say this. Way to push a lynch without actually being on it.

I considered Jack but I knew I wouldn't be able to breadcrumb an "Innocent"-result on Jack.

Yes, what does this mean?

Unvote. Vote: horror

Jack, you need to start providing actual content tomorrow.

What does any of this post have to do with horror? Why are you just bandwagon while acting like giving content?

Also, we're quickly approaching deadline, and I find the ekiM wagon to be pretty awful. I haven't seen a real reason for anybody to be on it, expect for DDD's. (I understand DDD's stance on ekiM, but do not agree with it. I was actually scumbuddies with ekiM in the referenced Muppets game, so I see where DDD is coming from, but I do think there is a difference in the play.) Uncountered claimed cop SPS is not the play today. That means you, horror.

buddy buddy buddy buddy

Holy crap why haven't I been paying attention to this guy? ML is almost certainly scum. Screw his claim, I won’t believe it for a second longer.

FoS: MacavityLock

. Like I said, vote coming later.