Mini 116: Trigger Mafia Concluded

[shadyforce]

Well, I'm still torn. I really do believe Tam, and am totally unconvinced by Yaw's attack on him, but at the same time, I can see the merit of what Jag is saying about lynching Tam and seeing if she is scum or not.

However, I would like to urge the fact that if I am right and Jag is a serial killer, that does not mean Tam isn't scum, because Jag may indeed have investigation to go with her serial killerness, so we could lynch Tam, and hail Jaguar as our saviour while she is still the SK.

There is the possibility that they are both scum. If that's the case, lynching the SK first seems the best option, because if we lynch a scummy Tam, then 2 townie kills or even townie + scum, means town are in deep trouble.

So would you two like to stop bickering and think logically for a second? What do you the best play might be?

[Yaw]

If Jaguar were a SK, we probably would have seen a second night kill by now. I'm not saying it's impossible that Jaguar is scum, but I think her being a SK is unlikely from the evidence we have.

The best thing we can do is to lynch Tam. It would give us some sort of verification on Jaguar, and it's the best lead on scum we have. Besides which, the claim is looking increasingly ridiculous. We've had scum deaths so far with a piano, a knife, and a gun. Do you really think a worn bandage is going to be sufficient protection for any of those kill methods? Especially one that looks like it'll fall apart within the next 24 hours? I don't think there should be much of an argument anymore.

Are Willows and Totem around? They're the only people who have yet to vote, so they really should be contributing and asking questions here.

[Tam]

Yaw, you are just scummy as hell. I suppose someone turning into a donut is a valid claim, and even someone who finds a magic 8-ball that reliably tells alignment is so much more logical than me finding a rotting bandage in my shack.

When you say I'm the best lead we have for scum, what you mean is that noone's really playing any more, and you want that last vote on me so you can end the day.

Why don't you give me an actual reason that makes sense of why I'm so suspicious, and our best lead? So far when I ask that all I get is bs and you twisting around what I say in ways that apparently aren't mistaken by others, just you, as you try to make me look more scummy.

[Otaku376]

unvote: Tam

I don't know why I didn't realize this earlier, but Candice was SHOT. The mafia are out of bullets. To me, that suggests that another kill ability was triggered. I'd rather not end this day until this can be sorted out better.

[Jaguar]

Nice catch Otaku. I didn't notice that at all. The front post doesn't say anything about being shot.

And no, I don't have any bullets or a gun for that matter. I kinda like my silly 8 ball though. I'll stick to my vote on Tam as I honestly think that it's the best one at this time.

Besides, if my 8 ball is wrong, that means Shady is scum, so we should lynch either Tam or Shady today and see what happens.

[Tam]

Besides, if my 8 ball is wrong, that means Shady is scum, so we should lynch either Tam or Shady today and see what happens.

OR, it means that you're scummy and lying, and are trying to get away with lynching two innocents before being found out,

OR, it means that you're a loopy cop-like role, with random results.

I'd thought it odd at first that shady seems to back me up, because if he's an innocent then he should surely have thought me guilty, but I hadn't taken into account that he seems to think Jaguar is scum.

I am not sure if he's scummy, or just has a crap 8ball, but either way, his results are wrong.

[Yaw]

First of all, Jaguar is female.

Secondly, random cops do not belong in mafia games. The only way you can get a cop role that gives "random" results is if it's a scum role playing cop -- that is, someone making up results instead of getting them from the mod. Naturally, the only way to figure that out is to lynch someone on Jaguar's list of investigated people.

Jaguar is either sane, insane, or lying. If she's sane, we should lynch Tam. If she's lying, we should still lynch Tam because we have a day before being in a lynch-or-lose situation, and this will give us insight into whether or not she's lying. We'll also have more information tomorrow because she'll still be alive if she's scum, with another investigation. If she's insane, then we'll know to lynch shady tomorrow. At any rate, the investigation is the only really solid lead we have, so we have to make use of it.

[Tam]

First of all, Jaguar is female.

So am I.

Jaguar- I am sorry if it actually upsets you. I'm just at the point where I don't care any more, and didn't think to look any more. (which is why I didn't point it out when shady (I think it was) did the same thing to me.)

Yaw- Who are you, the Gender Nazis?

Secondly, random cops do not belong in mafia games. The only way you can get a cop role that gives "random" results is if it's a scum role playing cop -- that is, someone making up results instead of getting them from the mod. Naturally, the only way to figure that out is to lynch someone on Jaguar's list of investigated people.

I'm sorry, but that is completely false. Are you trying to tell me that noone on scum makes investigators who only get random results? Or who are given the correct results some nights, and false ones on other nights?

Because this link is to the mafiascum role pages...

http://www.mafiascum.net/roles/cop.html

and according to it:

"There are three very common variations on the Cop role: Insane, Paranoid, and Naive. When a Moderator uses these roles, the player receiving the role is only told his/her role is Cop. However, when that player investigates,

he/she receives the opposite answer (or an incorrect role, at random, if playing with the specific role variation), if Insane

; Mafia every time, if Paranoid; or Innocent every time if Naive."

(my bolding)

Right. It seems like every time I ask you something, I get dishonesty back.

How about this, can I get an honest answer back on this one thing? --

Why do you think that I am so definitely a better pick to lynch? You haven't been able so far to give me a good reason. Hell, shady was called up as being kinda dodgy yesterday, he had caught my attention, at least, and I just don't think I'm dodgy at all. I want to know just what makes me more suspicious than him. (No offense Shady.)

And everyone else --

Hello people, would you talk? (Are we really down to 4 people?)

[Tigris]

Totem and WW have been nibble-poked and while I do not wish to replace, if such is necessary, such is needed. Along the same lines, if people wish to have a deadline, I am willing to place one.

Vote Count:

Tam (2)- Jaguar and Yaw
Jaguar (1)- Shady
Yaw (1)-tam

not voting: willows, otaku, and totem

[Yaw]

Wow. You're just going for confusion now, aren't you?

Let's go back through Jaguar's results, shall we?

Night 1 -- Willows leprechaun.
Night 2 -- Trigger changes to 8-ball. 8-ball says Shady innocent.
Night 3 -- 8-ball says Tam guilty.

I might have nights 2 and 3 reversed, I don't recall if Jaguar ever specified exactly which was which. It doesn't make a difference, the relevant point is that both occurred after the trigger changed.

When I say random cops have no place in mafia, I mean that. There is no place for a cop role that gets a result of guilty or innocent based solely on a coin flip. It is an unplayable role. Your bolded text, Tam, refers to a cop that gets an actual

role name

, not simply guilty or innocent. In that case, insanity necessitates making up something for the role of the person investigated. You'll note, however, that there's still a very definite pattern to this -- guilty people would get an innocent role name and innocent people would get a guilty role name, or something along those lines such that the cop still fits into one of the four basic sanities. This is

not a random cop

. Not even close.

Which leaves us with the 8-ball being either a lie, sane, or insane, as I stated before. Now, can you address Jaguar's result on you without having to twist the roles page to fit?

As for the other question, I simply do not believe your role claim. In light of the investigation and that, I think you're scum. Why do you find me specifically scummy for that, when Otaku has obviously come to the same conclusion I have? He isn't getting any flack for it. If you are indeed scum, I'll be looking at Otaku very closely tomorrow.

FOS: Otaku

I will be extremely suspicious of him if this bandwagon gets derailed somehow despite a guilty cop result.

[Otaku376]

I just want to make something very clear, I think Tam reaks of scum. The ONLY reason I unvoted her *for now* is because we have a new killer as far as I can tell. Unless someone can answer the question, why would there be gunshots last night? If there are two kills per night, save for any sort of doc protection, we could fast be approaching lynch or die without realizing it.

[willows_weep]

Hm, seem to have forgotten to tell you of my trip up to maine that started Tuesday night. I am heading home in a few hours.

The only comment that makes me think scummy is the Jaguar comment sounding too ok with just seeing what happens if the lynch is shady or tam.

Hm, I don't think the new killer would be able to keep the ability. Mostly because odds are that they may lose it.
Odds like that because since you dont know what the triggers are ..etc.

vote:Jaguar

.
I dislike voting...

Any way since its 4 to lynch that makes 2 on Jaguar by the last vote count.
I wont be back in NYC till late tonight. Hopefully.

So my hope is that:
If Jaguar is innocent scum is already on another bandwagon so since there are 2 mafia they don't finish the deal together (considering one isnt on there already)

That there isnt a second party that doesnt care if Jaguar is lynched or not. (Never know exactly what these triggers could be. My brain is thinking about a certain game ssetup right now.)

Im sorry I really thought I mentioned that I would be going away again.

[willows_weep]

Hmm. re-read and rethink.

unvote jaguar

But Im not going to put the 3rd oN Tam.
Even though she looks worse than anyone else.

I need to read somethng...brb

K, read it and did something but I have to wait...

[Tam]

Yaw, You're just wrong. I'm not sure what your deal is, but your whole take on the cop-thing is just WRONG.

Read the rules yourself...hell, go look up some games yourself, I don't care, but stop using lies to make me look worse.

Cops have been known to be insane and to get random results.

In fact, the only time I've seen a magic 8ball in a game, it was a psycho cop role that got some good and some bad results. In terms of investigative roles, the magic 8ball is possibly the least reliable one.

At any rate, I'm sick of arguing with you. I take it that the rest of the town knows what role specs there are out there, so let them figure out who's truthful.

Also, I keep seeing people say they think I'm scummy, but not one actual reason as to why. Any takers? Otaku- you in particular...you seem a bit extreme in your conviction, so tell me...WHY?

I mean, normally I think that people who just go with the group and say 'yeah, i think she's scummy, i'll vote her later', with no reasoning behind it at all, are scum trying to fit in, but that can't be the case with everyone but shady saying it...I think I look worse than anyone else, Willows, because I'm the only one talking. This whole day has been me and Yaw going back and forth, hell, even Jaguar, who originally started all of this up on me, isn't really bothering any more. Just point the fingers and sit back to wait in the shadows, right?

Anyhow, I'm not posting any more until people start talking, or at least bring up new stuff to talk about...lynch me if you like, I'm just sick of sitting here arguing with Yaw indefinitely. (This isn't meant to sound grouchy and whatnot, just factual. It sucks to sit around being accused while noone can spare the time to even give a reason why.)

[Yaw]

From the Wiki:

There are four common variations on the Cop role:

Insane
Receives the opposite result
Paranoid
recieve Mafia/guilty result every time
Naive
recieve innocent every time
Random
Receives a random answer. There is almost no place in mafia for a random cop. (-JEEP)

And the reason for that comment at the end is that random cops are virtually unplayable, especially when they're of the guilty/innocent variety, instead of the role name variety. Insane and random cops are certainly

not

equivalent.

At any rate, we aren't getting anywhere due to participation issues. Where has everyone gone? Where on earth is Totem?

[Jaguar]

I've had a few tonight, but I'll try to get a better post in tomorrow (at the latest on Monday)...

Tam, I basically investigated you because of vibes, nothing else. I had nothing concrete on you, whereas quite a few people at least claimed to have hit a trigger (unless I missed yours while I was asleep, I did follow the game, but when you are not trying to formulate arguments against people, I tend to skim a bit more). One other who hadn't was Shady, whom I also investigated and found innocent.

There are a few other people I would like to investigate, but we'll have to wait for night on that one.

So there you have my reason for having picked on you for an investigation and I am going to stick with my vote on you because of the results from the eight ball so far. If you were in my position, I think you'd also prefer to lynch the person whom the eight ball thinks is bad. In my position, I have two choices. I need to find out if I am getting good results and to do that I need to have one of the two people investigated lynched. I am sorry, but you came up bad.

[Otaku376]

Reasons why I think Tam is scum:
1. I believe Jaguar's claim of a new ability
-This is in part related to the fact that she was also able to learn some stuff about her trigger the second night she had it
2. Tam's defense has been that Jaguar's a random cop? That is a horrible defense and instead of being concise and logical, you are being obscure and fustrating. Tam, to help your case in at least proving random cops belong in mafia perhaps you could go through the archives for a game that uses one. As long as I have played and read games on this board, the only time random cop has ever come up was when Dourgrim and I were thinking of ridiculously elaborate roleclaim plays when we were mafia (fortunately we never implemented this plan).
You have not raised any points of the legitamacy of Jaguar, you have gone straight to the sanity issue and are desperately clinging to a technicality in the old mafia roles.
3. Rereading your posts do not fill me with confidence of your protown ness. Your wishy washy behavoir and lack of real and new content to this game makes me weary.
4. The ONLY reason I am not voting you right now is because I don't want say Totem to show up vote you and end this day. I want to figure out where the GUNSHOT came from.

[willows_weep]

interesting. I made a post this morning...
Oh well it said something like this:

I have to keep checking to see who Yaw is voting for(Its just that my brain is thinking Yaw is on Jaguar when I read and reread posts)

Jaguar are you going to check me out?

Hm, I dont know about the gunshot.

[Yaw]

I have to keep checking to see who Yaw is voting for(Its just that my brain is thinking Yaw is on Jaguar when I read and reread posts)

I've been voting for Tam almost the entire day. Weird.

The ONLY reason I am not voting you right now is because I don't want say Totem to show up vote you and end this day. I want to figure out where the GUNSHOT came from.

I

did

see Totem online today. What that means with respect to this game, I have no idea.

The gunshot must have been a trigger of some sort. Since it killed Candice, who was a semi-confirmed cop, it probably wasn't a pro-town role. If I had to guess, it would be mafia picking up the trigger, because there wasn't a second kill. I can't discount the idea that it was a SK and the mafia got roleblocked or doc-blocked, but I think that's the less likely option, as it involves more triggers and night choices coming up in such a way that we got that night result. I expect you came to similar conclusions on your own.

Jaguar are you going to check me out?

What is

that

supposed to mean?

[Tigris]

Vote Count:

No changes from last count ^_^
Tam (2)- Jaguar and Yaw
Jaguar (1)- Shady
Yaw (1)-tam

not voting: willows, otaku, and totem

[Jaguar]

Jaguar are you going to check me out?

Wouldn't you like to know Honestly, I have a few people that I'd like to investigate and I haven't made up my mind yet as to who is going to be next.

[Yaw]

Ok, Totem

posted

today, just not here. Is he still in this game? If not, can we get a replacement so we can get this game going again?

[Totem]

I am composing the post now.

[shadyforce]

That was 2 hours ago. Long post?

[Totem]

My computer access is limited recently. And when I am online I am not
good at organizing my time, just greedy for fun. Always chose something
simple and short instead of concentrating on the game.
Now finally I have some more time to read. And I have most of tomorrow
free.

ok, what do I think:
First, I repeat, I am not a donut anymore. comforting thought.

If I look at Yaw and Tam discussion alone I tend to believe Yaw more.
But when I read Shady's posts he makes some good points.
So who is guilty?

I am not sure if I believe Jaguar. To many coincidences with triggers.
It is entirely possible that Jag is mafia. In one of her post I
noticed too much of 'just kill one or the other, I don't care'
attitude.

I think I will vote Yaw tomorrow but now I wait to reread thread once
more in the morning (I was not paying enough attention, might be
missing something) also I wait for your questions and discussion.

And last but not least. What is it with firefighters and library
burning? I love books, it disturbs me. Let's rebuild the library
today.

I feel a bit of guilt of not participating enough. Especially in this
funny , cat infested game =^^=