Mini Normal 1931 | Endgame

[UnaBombaH]

RC, if you just could, would you mind walking me through your thought process when you read on from the part where Boon faked a guilty on Eddie.

That is the moment after which Thor started to feel more forced to me, and I'd like to hear your interpretation of it.

Like, as an outsider, how did you see the scumteam form from that point on?

[RadiantCowbells]

No real mention of Thor until his actual entrance, so I'll skip ahead to here.

Spoiler: Thor on Day 4

With three PR claims and 1 soft it is insane that we're continuing discussion without a full claim at this stage.
There are a number of ways that a full claim helps theory sort the current mish-mash, and scum being locked into lies now is highly beneficial on multiple fronts.

With frog as the last full claimer I strongly suggest he popcorns to someone, and they full claim (role and any actions) and popcorn to someone else to then claim.

Eddie also needs to so strongly pull back on his whine about bad play, as he appears to be basing it off one speed derp wagon while not actally suggesting any of that is scum in a functional way which is the easiest explanation for 50% of the derp and doesn't require lying as a wagon theory nor intentionally playing like scum when a Doc who isn't crumbing

Full-claim is mostly not alignment based in my opinion unless he was trying to buy GR time to claim. The Eddie bit is really scummy though: for someone who doesn't want Eddie lynched and thinks they're the most useful PR it's odd that he discredits him by saying he's intentionally playing like scum without crumbing and even the entire call out just feels weird. Don't think that he would have said that as town there.

I will also point out that at the moment it is entirely possible for all the current claims to be town, or for up to two of them to be scum, and people should stop making broad claims about them until we get a bit more info - or at least be honest that they're making assumptions.

Already trying to prevent the Eddie Cane lynch as I commented before.
Super worth pointing out that with FL/Eddie/Frog's claims down it was in fact not at all likely for there to be no scum in the PR claims.
Feels like he's hedging and waiting.

@Flavor - a question for you (and please ask the Mod to clarify if your role PM doesn't) are there any of your effects that the loyalty modifier would be announced on other than the Cop?

Feels like he's just asking the question for the sake of having interactions while not having to commit to anything.

I think it's generally bad how much time he spends focusing on getting claims and setup spec rather than giving any sort of reads and I'm pretty confident that he was hedging to see where the tides would go since he wanted to not be lumped in with Flavor and GR.

That's awesome, I fail to see much of an argument there for him claiming first or last, and I agree with you that he has to claim and have said as much very clearly.

This feels really bad. I feel like he should have recognized that you might be saying something important with regards to the claim order and that he should have taken seriously, but even on this he's still noncommittal on where he should claim.
Like generally if someone says 'hey this guy should claim after me' that gets taken seriously, but Thor isn't really looking in that direction.
Feels like he was more interested in general in just getting all the claims on the table so he had a clearer picture what to do mechanically.

Next bit mostly seems fine besides the broader issue with the general content as opposed to specifics.

Worth pointing out that 3100 is not something I would see scum saying to their partners. Very TvS manipulative.
But given that I'm informed, *shrug*

Note that in #3107 he's interested in the townread on Thor: probably more likely to catch the change there because it's his partner and probably more interested in the shifting read there too!

3131 is pretty terrible. Thor is still more focused on the claims.
Worth noting that TIAM was literally threatening not to vote and he didn't really get that annoyed about it, just general focused on a result.
When GR has not immediately claimed all results he starts all caps posting which is super unjustified given GR actually only just claimed.

@Game Replacement - you're posting in other games. Citing Night Actions takes a few moments. Crafting a fake claim takes days. Tick tock.
Also don't forget to popcorn, I know it has been exceedingly hard for everyone to manage that, but it's part of the claim.

Again: TIAM stalled the claim literally forever, while doing stuff. GR has been less than 24H at this point. Treatment is way different.
Worth noting that GR immediately responded: possibly Thor gave him a set of night actions to claim at this time?

I was posting on my other accounts. I have over 20 games to deal with and a half solved game isn't my priority.

You were also posting on this account, so...

I don't really care who claims next. Just anyone left do it.
I checked FL last night. He's JOAT, and anyone pushing him today I am going to consider as scum.
I'm going into detail more at a later day or my death says it on flip.

Fair enough, that's very good info to have considering other info it's quite interesting.

I'll popcorn for you, because this is apparently still the most complicated thing in the world for people.

@NOTTHEREALPAUL - you're up for the claimage. Please claim, list all actions, targets, results, and (if you dare and are capable) popcorn.

Just feels kind of SvS in general. Goes from calling him scum for not posting to fair enough, interesting. Progression is v bad.

Townread on Thor is way out of place.

Note that they spend a lot more time talking about Thor than they do me: if they're playing a massive gambit like this I would super expect in general to see lots of attempts to create SvS dialogue to distance. There's almost no interplay between either scum and NTRP who kind of is just there with one or two comments made but now Thor is getting brought up a lot and called town for bad reasons. Scum would not leave their associatives like NTRP/either scum if playing a gambit and they'd have a better read than a lazy lean town that looks scummy.

why is paul next and not you or wave?

Why not?

I actually don't care too much. Scum team is Eddie, Frog, and then likely Una. Would explain Frog and Eddie deciding to come together too.

Why vote Eddie over Frog at this juncture if you believe this? Frog is objectively the one more likely to be scum.
Also, why did Frog claim to back you up and screw over Eddie if they're scumpartners?

I think the point of popcorn is that it's random. But we won't arbitrarily let Paul wait and have others claim first because he could use that information to make a better fake claim. Once he's chosen he has to go.

The point of popcorn is that it's not random.
This game has worked very hard to try to get around that problem, but...

Okay, I could go with Eddie NTRP and Frog then.

All you for the hammer.

I would find a hammer to be MASSIVELY DERP at this stage and would oppose it.
Especially on Eddie at this stage.
Frog or Replacement are the far more obvious and less derp binary choice, and even then I'd rather finish the mass claim.

Don't know how to put words to this but it's scum.

It's even more interesting, because I feel like Game Replacement didn't notice the issue with his claim, because he never brought up Frog's claim as an issue.

That's why the derp wagon on Eddie is dumb and shouldn't happen at this point in the game, especially with two players not even claimed yet.

This is horrible: what does it actually mean? There's literally no comment made about what GR not noticing the issue means, just hey this wagon shouldn't happen and we need to finish the massclaim. It's very much a SvS post where he's trying to look like he scumread and is pushing on GR but without actually having to scumread or push on them. Kind of like Thor in general this game with his insistence that he MVP carried.

Actually GR did kind of tag Frog, but went after Eddie first for...uncertain reasons.

Pedit - @TwoinaMillion, you need to spend time in a Newbie queue.
Pedit - @Wave - how do you not get it? Describe their claimed night actions to me.

Again: makes the comment about something GR did that was scummy, doesn't follow it up or finish the train of thought and goes onto other stuff.

Oh for some reason I thought last night was night 4, obv it's night 3 so frog said FL wasn't visited. Yeah one of game/frog is lying

Yeah, we know, and people decided to rush lynch Eddie for...reasons.

Like, no one is even particularly explaining the missed kill last night if Eddie is scum.
It's very painful to watch happen.

This is straight up cheeky scum and reminds me of, well, several posts that he made in the recently finished double newbie queue setup.

this gameisnt a bust if you listen to me. never lynch two/frog. lynching flavor, game, Paul, wave in that order wins. town has a mislynch (thanks to two saves). use it.

I kinda want to lynch Two just to not have to deal with a newb any more.

Why do you think Frog is the more trustworthy of the two cross claims? Didn't you have issues with Skitter?

Still not something that Town!Thor, winner of many IC awards, ever says.

Worth noting that after close reading again in context: I do feel like Thor did in fact act like he had the correct reads here.
But he didn't follow up on them at all and I don't think that's coincidental.

[RadiantCowbells]

Keep in mind that I can't give you, like, read development thoughts on anything besides Day 1 and early Day 2 because that's when I was actually reading the game non spoiled. As soon as I had my role PM Thor was confirmed scum and I can't exactly give you the 'outsider' perspective on what you're looking for because I didn't read anything past that without spoilers besides reading through my and Thor's ISOs to make absolutely sure I wasn't replacing into a scum slot on Boonskiies' team, and I've already given you the thoughts I had pre-spoilers in my first walls.

[UnaBombaH]

I've been reading the game for ~4 hours now, and I just have to say that Eddie and frog both were rather set on town!Thor and scum!Paul.

[UnaBombaH]

Oh ffs

Also this is a questionable "bah" because it implies Wave was tracking Paul and saw him coming..!

[UnaBombaH]

RC has been making very good points so far, but I wouldn't expect less from my hero..

And what throws me off the most, is how Thor has been acting.
I know that his annoyance/condescending way of posting should be NAI, but it just grinds my gears.
Also all the hesitation when FL+GR fake-claims were happening..ech.
Not willing to admit I am town, even though me as scum SHOULD be easily discredited when you go read my ISO around D5-D6.
Especially today, when it was just the three of us, I can't shake the feeling that he was hoping for Paul/me to vote each other. (which he probably was, no matter his alignment)

@Thor, I'm starting to lean strongly towards you being the scum here.
Please try to clarify your own train of thought after the moment Boon claimed he had a guilty on Eddie.

[Thor665]

What are you so caught up on this spite bus thing? Barring the early day 1 deathtunnel on Flavor Leaf, which I said might have been grudge- but was more likely just distancing.

I'm caught up on it because it's so silly as to be a very strong way to showcase how reachy your case for me being scum is.

I'm hoping you didn't personally support the double fakeclaim. You never bussed shit considering you were repeatedly trying to look

off

the 1v1s involving scum for lynches and on scum in general.

As long as you ignore the three days where I actively talked about the 1v1s this is true.
Which means it's a straight up lie.

Hey, you do do aggressive pushes! You don't quicklynch people at the start of Day 1. If you've started doing that at some point, that makes me very sad.

Your inability to support the made up meta you're claiming for me is noted.

And even if you -did- do something that I'm unfairly misrepresenting as not at all bussing, you're still scum. So it's not really my job to go through it.
I've been in this game for 24 hours. I probably do not fully understand what happened in context:

I love you RC, I really do.
But, yeah, I agree you're trying to slog uphill.

...Why wouldn't they do this? Glorious Thor with his gigantic hammer rides in to save town from it's own feeble minds. I agree this makes Two obviously town though!

They wouldn't do it because in your narrative it would be handing the scumteam win to the player you're claiming hated the plan to such an amazing degree he was willing to game throw.

So...again, why did they do this?

I mean: fervent yes you should have just lynched town in 7 way? Why didn't you? I don't know!

Clearly I wanted to game throw for...random reason.

So we agree that me, as scum and you as town, requires me to have made some really random bad plans?
Got it.

Again sounds like you're trying to be a white knight upon a shining steed, but I still question your mischaracterization of yourself as a primary force in getting either scum lynched.
Even if you were and I'm seeing things unfairly because I know that you're scum, that just means that they planned around you endgaming.

Uh-huh.
Why did I plan for endgame past a double fakeclaim double down mylo?

While NTRP lurks out like NTRP does in the majority of games that happen on site. Why would this scumteam EVER put their eggs in the NTRP basket?
It's clear that from the point of the fakeclaims onward that they felt either thought they were going to quick win or had a backup plan.

I agree - it's why they didn't put any effort into him other than the distance.

I mean I still disagree from what I've seen that you were an active part in getting your buddies lynched. But even if you were, it matches with your general scum play and still makes a lot more sense than NTRP randomly bussing the rest of his team then giving this game absolutely no effort.

You refuse to admit that I bussed but claimed NTRP did?
Another really convenient double standard.

Unless you guys actually thought one of you would be protected somehow and tried to no kill, which actually wouldn't surprise me.
Sunlit I have questions about but none of the other nightkills seem bad, but rb and Frog (both times) seem pretty reasonable.

Oh. and WHY THE SMURF DOES SCUM NTRP START DOUBTCASTING FROG, CONFTOWN BY DOCTOR, WHEN THEY WERE JUST GOING TO KILL THEM AT NIGHT?

Because he was desperate to try to protect his scumbuddies in their fake claims and that's why the scumbuddies started to distance from him?
You're not supposed to make my case for me.

[Thor665]

@Thor, I'm starting to lean strongly towards you being the scum here.

If that is true then I don't have any energy in me anymore to explain how dumb that is.

Please try to clarify your own train of thought after the moment Boon claimed he had a guilty on Eddie.

I openly explained all my thoughts as I had them - reading my iso is understanding my thoughts.
What is remotely confusing or hidden about the thoughts I had?

[Thor665]

@Una - just admit that the case you're being "swayed" by is one where RC is having to describe a narrative where the scum team broke down in their QT and I went rogue.

As long as you're willing to openly agree that the narrative there makes sense to you I'm fine with you hammering me, because then you and I can have a very long conversation about 'illogic and probability'

And if you DON'T buy that case - what the hell are you doing wasting my time?

[UnaBombaH]

@Una - just admit that the case you're being "swayed" by is one where RC is having to describe a narrative where the scum team broke down in their QT and I went rogue.

As long as you're willing to openly agree that the narrative there makes sense to you I'm fine with you hammering me, because then you and I can have a very long conversation about 'illogic and probability'

And if you DON'T buy that case - what the hell are you doing wasting my time?

Because to me it doesn't feel like you understand the need to explain yourself, OR you don't know how to.

Even now when RC has made an effort to case scum!Thor, your comment to every paragraph is just belittling and not actually trying to explain his points.
And if you are town, it doesn't make a good impression that you are not willing to make a case here.
If I hadn't been able to get Paul to vote you, I would have been forced to make a case myself, but as it happened, you are the one in that position.
There have been times in the last two game-days where I have felt that you could indeed be scum, and was getting paranoid by the fact how you dodged the NKs while someone like TiaM got capped (who had his reads ALL WRONG AND UPSIDE DOWN D5.)
I've been told that there is a reason why anyone makes it to LyLo, and yours would most likely be the fact that you are the scum yourself.

[Thor665]

Even now when RC has made an effort to case scum!Thor, your comment to every paragraph is just belittling and not actually trying to explain his points.

It's not my job to explain RC's points - it's my job to point out how they're illogical and don't work.

And if you are town, it doesn't make a good impression that you are not willing to make a case here.

I did make a case on RC.

I also asked you some actual questions and you didn't answer them.
I'm not randomly going to restate my iso for no reason.

[Thor665]

I openly explained all my thoughts as I had them - reading my iso is understanding my thoughts.
What is remotely confusing or hidden about the thoughts I had?

There is my question.

[Thor665]

@RC - here's my case on you.

Why did both of your scumbuddies choose to paint Two as their partner in the war and your slot as obviously part of the Una/frog scum team (which would be that distancing you've mentioned), and paint me (their scumbuddy in your world) as the decision maker.
Get the votes to work out that way.
And then have me rage argue with them instead of trying to debate with NTRP and Two
And then the only slot I do debate with is Two - to get him to switch to my buddies.
While NTRP lurks out, like distanced scum should do.

Just describe their plan there, if it makes me laugh enough maybe I'll self vote and hand you the scum win.
But I am hard to make laugh. (though you're doing pretty well with this contortion act, kudos for the good fight).

There is my case on RC.

Learn to read.

[Thor665]

And even if you -did- do something that I'm unfairly misrepresenting as not at all bussing, you're still scum. So it's not really my job to go through it.
I've been in this game for 24 hours. I probably do not fully understand what happened in context:

I love you RC, I really do.
But, yeah, I agree you're trying to slog uphill.

To be perfectly frank, if you can read the above exchange and go 'yeah, RC's case makes sense' then there's no helping you.

[UnaBombaH]

But I am hard to make laugh. (though you're doing pretty well with this contortion act, kudos for the good fight).

So with that I guess I'm ready to end this.

I base my decision on my teammates more than my own reads/hunches, although I did townread you earlygame when others scumread/harrassed you..
I guess I just want you to be scum!

Good writing RC, and if you are really town, I'm very sorry.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

[Thor665]

You chose wisely.

Why the hell were you asking for things I'd already provided/didn't provide and yet you didn't explain why you needed them?

[Thor665]

Also, RC was given a BullSmurf situation. As I said.
It was good try hard though.

[UnaBombaH]

Why the hell were you asking for things I'd already provided/didn't provide and yet you didn't explain why you needed them?

Eh, just wanted to make a twist at the end.

It would've been a bit anti-climatic if I had just voted RC the moment he joined.

[PenguinPower]

Vote Count 7.04 - FINAL

RadiantCowbells

(2): Thor665, UnaBombaH

(LYNCH)

Thor665

(1): RadiantCowbells

Not Voting

(0):

With 3 alive, it takes 2 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2017-09-13 20:20:00)

Mod Notes:

[PenguinPower]

Day 6 Lynch

RadiantCowbells -

Mafia Goon

- lynched Day 7

Town Wins!

[PenguinPower]

Day 1

Mulch -

Vanilla Townie

- Lynched Day 1

Night 1

frog watches rb - Eddie Cane visits rb
Eddie Cane heals rb - no effect
UnabombaH rolecops MarioManiac4 - MarioManic4's is Odd Night Bulletproof.
NotTheRealPaul kills Sunlit Diamond - Sunlit Diamond -

Vanilla Townie

- is killed.

Day 2

MarioManiac4 -

Odd Night Bulletproof Novice Serial Killer

- Lynched Day 2

Night 2

Flavor Leaf uses roleblock ability to roleblock frog - no effect
Game Replacement kills rb - no effect
Eddie Cane heals rb - rb is protected from the kill
wavemode tracks NotTheRealPaul - NotTheRealPaul goes nowhere.

Day 3

Dunkerdoodles -

Town 2-Shot Commuter

- lynched Day 3

Night 3

UnaBombaH rolecops Thor665 - Thor665 is Vanilla
frog watches Flavor Leaf - no one visits Flavor Leaf
Eddie Cane heals frog - frog is protected from the kill
NotTheRealPaul kills frog - no effect
Flavor Leaf rolestops Eddie Cane - no effect

Day 4

Eddie Cane -

Town Doctor

- lynched Day 4

Night 4

Flavor Leaf uses Strongman to kill wavemode - wavemode -

Town Even-Night Tracker

is killed
wavemode tracks Flavor Leaf - Flavor Leaf visits wavemode and...oh, wait...what? Sorries, u is dead now.
UnaBombaH rolecops Game Replacement - Game Replacement is Vanilla.

Day 5

Game Replacement -

Mafia Goon

- lynched Day 5

Night 5

Boonskiies kills TwoInAMillion - TwoInAMillion -

Vanilla Townie

is killed
frog watches UnaBombaH - no one visits UnaBombaH
UnaBombaH rolecops Flavor Leaf (Boonskiies) - Flavor Leaf (Boonskiies) is JOAT.

Day 6

Boonskiies -

Mafia JOAT

- lynched Day 6

Night 6

NotTheRealPaul kills frog - frog -

Town Odd-Night Watcher

is killed
UnaBombaH rolecops NotTheRealPaul- NotTheRealPaul is Vanilla

Day 7

RadiantCowbells -

Mafia Goon

- lynched Day 7

[Eddie Cane]

I'm proud of you una

[frog]

I'm proud of you una

[UnaBombaH]

Eh, got carried by you guys, but thanks anyway!

[Eddie Cane]

what made you decide to do rc? or was that always going to happen