Newbie 694 (over)

[GIEFF]

Sorry, Dipstick.

Vote Xtoxm

No posts for days and days after my case against him, although he posted 40 TIMES elsewhere on the site in that span, yet he manages to make it back to hammer JUST 7 MINUTES after Dipstick hits L-1.

I'm a little surprised at the pick of Insanepenguin.

[hambargarz]

That was quick, One time there was 5 days to go till lynch, I logged on the next day and Dipstick was lynched.

I echo GIEFF's comments on Xtoxm and insanepenguin.
Will post more later, don't have much time at the moment

[ClockworkRuse]

Commenting on Night Kills is pure WIFOM. Avoid it.

Other than that, Xtomx didn't just come back and hammer. Albeit it took him three days to get back to the game, that can be reasonable when you factor in real life and other games.

However, what I don't like the fact that he hammered when we still had a few days to discuss what was going on. We could have had some time to consider the how legitimate the claim was, anything. Instead, he hammered as if it was an hour or two away from deadline.

Xtomx, if you didn't like that lynch why did you drop the hammer so soon?

[Xtoxm]

Sorry, guys. I hammered because he claimed vanilla, amd theats geberally what you do wiht a vanilla claim. Trust me, i'm town. I've just got back froma night out and i'm pissed, so you can trust me wjen I say i'm town.

[CarnCarn]

uh, lol. "Trust me?" I hope you can give a better answer when you sober up a bit.

I do think the hammer was rash considering the short span of time between the claim and the hammer vote. CR, an IC, is saying that he doesn't like that (presumably it is scummy). Xtoxm, while I think I agree a vanilla claim means less of a possible downside to lynching someone, is a hammer that soon after the claim a right play as town?

[Xtoxm]

Lol, what's wrong with trusting me?

Well, I basically just thought the day had gone on long enough, and then he claimed vanilla, and with vanilla claims they often just get lynched anyway, and I sometimes push for lynches of claimed VT's just because they've claimed. So I just hammered. I thought there was a good chance he was scum. You guys put him at L-1, which should mean you are happy for him to be lynched. I find that very hypocritical of Gieff, when he L-1'd earlier himself. (I am aware he was not the final L-1 voter)

Anyway, as I was before, i'm still sus of West. Not sure about my 2nd suspect yet. I've got a couple of speculative idea's but nothing I feel worth mentioning yet.

[Westbrook_Owns_U]

CAn you give me reasons/ point out posts that make you remain suspicious of me?

[GIEFF]

When I voted L-1, the game was dead; _over hadn't posted in two weeks, no new content had been posted for one week (other than replacements trying to catch up), and I didn't think we would get a replacement so soon. And L-1 is WORLDS different from a hammer; trying to claim otherwise is false.

You posted 40 times over 3 days in other parts of the site. That's over 4,000 minutes, and you expect me to believe that you coming back

7 minutes

after L-1 to hammer was just a coincidence?

All you have provided the town is 30 words, two bandwagons (one of which has been proven to be false and the other of which you are still on) and a premature hammer.

This is why logic is better than what you call "emotion;" when your emotions are wrong, there is nothing left to say but "trust me."

[CarnCarn]

You posted 40 times over 3 days in other parts of the site. That's over 4,000 minutes, and you expect me to believe that you coming back

7 minutes

after L-1 to hammer was just a coincidence?

This is not true, by the way.

[GIEFF]

Oh, you're right; it was more like 90 minutes.

[Xtoxm]

Looking at it from a purely statistical viewpoint (which you are), that extra hour and a half changes a lot, you know. But looking at it like that isn't useful anyway.

Yes, I believe that was the first i'd checked this game for a few days. Usually I don't have unlimited time to check my games, and I just check the ones that have me more interested/are at a climax.

[GIEFF]

You're right; 90 minutes makes a big difference as far as the statistical argument, and I no longer think you were just lurking and waiting for your chance to hammer.

Do you have a response to post 356?

[Xtoxm]

Well, I certainly don't have a problem following up on my suspicions.

And I think your summary is a little misrepresenting, however you may have a point. I may have contributed less to this game than I thought I have/is acceptable.

My suspicion of West comes from suspicion of Inf, and not having seen anything to make me change this. However I admit suspicions of Inf were not rock solid, he

was

a flaking newbie after all. This doesn't relieve him, though.

[Westbrook_Owns_U]

If it was suspicions about Inf, then I'm guessing it was inactivity. Have I not been more active than my predecessor? What else about Inf struck you as scummy? You never really answered that.

[ClockworkRuse]

Lol, what's wrong with trusting me?

Well, I basically just thought the day had gone on long enough,

and then he claimed vanilla, [p]and with vanilla claims they often just get lynched anyway, and I sometimes push for lynches of claimed VT's just because they've claimed.[/b] So I just hammered. I thought there was a

good chance he was scum.

You guys put him at L-1, which should mean you are happy for him to be lynched.

I find that very hypocritical of Gieff, when he L-1'd earlier himself. (I am aware he was not the final L-1 voter)

Anyway, as I was before, i'm still sus of West. Not sure about my 2nd suspect yet. I've got a couple of speculative idea's but nothing I feel worth mentioning yet.

Can you give me any downsides to a long day? I can give you a lot of benefits.

So you lynch someone that you admittedly didn't like as the lynch... because they claimed vanilla?

I personally would have loved to actually look into the case on Dipstick a little harder. Even after he claimed, there was still a bit more discussing we could have had. How much did everyone believe the claim, we could have looked at how quickly the wagon built, [and I am going to check that out], and the such.

Simply put, saying you hammered because he claimed and you felt that he 'could be scum' isn't really a good defense of the hammer.

IGMEO

Gieff

The seven minutes bit was a little strawmanish for me.

[GIEFF]

I made a mistake, CR; I knew that Xtoxm hammered quickly, and to see how quickly I scrolled back to the last post with a vote in it, failing to notice it was a vote for somebody else. The point that it was a quick lynch still stands, although I agree that 90 minutes is a lot different from 7 minutes in terms of a purely statistical argument.


In what way is my summary in post 356 misrepresenting, Xtoxm? If you really thought it was misrepresenting, shouldn't you have brought it up on your own instead of waiting for me to pry it out of you? (This isn't the first time I've had to prod you for answers, incidentally). Are there any content-filled posts of yours I missed? Did I not provide enough context? I spent a long time putting that together, and I asked you days ago to point out any inconsistencies or omissions. If you see any, now is the time to point them out.

Or maybe you could some reasoning behind your suspicion of infamous other than "his posts strike me as odd" and "he hasn't impressed me." Your emotion led us astray on day 1, and I am not inclined to trust it again in the absence of reasoning.

[Xtoxm]

I'm just going to go ahead and say where I stand as to my thoughts right now.

Gieff - Town. He's doing a lot of work, and a lot of stuff he's done looks to me genuine attempts to scum hunt and help town. I would find it hard to see him as scum.

SP - Now that I look, his introduction post just looks like fluff not talking about much, and he hasn't really said anything else, so that's kinda scummy, however Uri was giving a strong town read...I will leave this as Nuetral for now.

CC - Now that I think about it, I had really just been assuming him town, becuse I wasn't finding him scummy and I had other suspects. He is talking a lot, but I think I could see him doing it as scum too. Overall I don't really get much either on him. There are a couple things I would usually expect from town, but i'm not sure. Nuetral.

Ham - For same reasons as before, I find him town, and I haven't seen anything that's made me want to change my mind about this. Town.

West - I will just say what I think of West here, disregarding Inf. I will admit i've been tunneling somewhat and i've not really been looking at what he's been saying (beyond the surface). His entry looks poor to me, puts off commenting on the game...I recall this compounded my supicion. However now I look, it doesn't look so bad. I have the impression in my mind that West struggles to conribute effectivley as scum (I think from browsing a couple of games he was in), and i've seen him flake as scum. His posting is fairly scattered though. Overall i'm not sure what to make of him. Why do you keep asking why I find you scummy?

Clock - Initially I wasn't suspecting him, but now I am a bit more. The nightkill suits Clock, from the way I see, although that's probably not a useful thing to be thinking about.

(I've just noticed new posts, and i'd like to say - Gieff, what the fuck are you on about? How did my emotion have

anything

to do with the D1 lynch?)

[Xtoxm]

Ok I cut that short in the end as I was getitng distracted and lost my line of thought, I just decided to fuck it and hit submit.

[CarnCarn]

Can you give me any downsides to a long day?

I have an answer for this, but I'll let xtoxm go first.

[GIEFF]

Gieff, what the fuck are you on about? How did my emotion have anything to do with the D1 lynch?)

@Xtoxm; I was referencing our earlier discussion of using logic vs. using emotion, as quoted below. I didn't see much logic presented for your vote against Dipstick, so I assumed that emotion was the primary factor for suspecting him (if you are town). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Gieff and Elen do both have valid points to some extent.

Random voting is just as standard really, you shouldn't think much of it. There's nothing wrong with not random voting, either. Note I didn't.

But what I really wanted to comment on was the logic thing. Yes, there is logic in mafia, with use of power roles etc - But largely, I believe Mafia is not a game of logic. Emotion is often a factor, I find. Although yes, random voting doesn't get you far on it's own, it's just a starter really, nothing more.

[GIEFF]

Also Xtoxm, can you detail why you are starting to suspect CR more? Just telling us you suspect him doesn't help the town at all, but listing reasons why you suspect him that CR can respond to is much more helpful.

[Xtoxm]

Downsides to a long day:

Game stagnates, people get bored. This can lead to lynches that aren't fully as considered as earlier on. Someone did the maths and worked out that the optimal length for D1 was around 7/8 pages. I remember reading this somewhere in the discussion section.

[Xtoxm]

It also tends to cause deadline lynches, which generally aren't so useful as non-dealdine lynches.

[Xtoxm]

Gieff, what the fuck are you on about? How did my emotion have anything to do with the D1 lynch?)

@Xtoxm; I was referencing our earlier discussion of using logic vs. using emotion, as quoted below. I didn't see much logic presented for your vote against Dipstick, so I assumed that emotion was the primary factor for suspecting him (if you are town). Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Gieff and Elen do both have valid points to some extent.

Random voting is just as standard really, you shouldn't think much of it. There's nothing wrong with not random voting, either. Note I didn't.

But what I really wanted to comment on was the logic thing. Yes, there is logic in mafia, with use of power roles etc - But largely, I believe Mafia is not a game of logic. Emotion is often a factor, I find. Although yes, random voting doesn't get you far on it's own, it's just a starter really, nothing more.

How are you defining Emotion and Logic?

[Xtoxm]

Well it's mainly creeping in as I need to find a new 2nd suspect, and I think the kill suits him. But having taking a closer look at this game tonight i'm not really as sure of anything as I was before.