Newbie 1052 - Endgame

[Sundy]

@Neuky, I see your point about scum-mute not wanting to hammer right away to wait for a claim, but consider: what motivation did town-mute have to ignore the claiming process entirely? You say Dawg was suspiciously unsuspicious of Stels, but Mute also had few things to say, good or bad. That looks to me like avoiding taking a stance and then forgoing a claim because he KNEW Stels wasn't innocent.

@Mute, I don't get your last paragraph at all. You hammered because you wanted people to "re-think their votes," and in protest of Dawg's failed hammer, which you maintain to be a scumslip? Your hammer didn't exactly exemplify caution even though the results were good. Your self-described motivations seem to be the opposite of your actions.

[Mute]

No Sundy I hammered because I

didn't

want another "oh let's hear their excuse and find a new target" debate. That would've been needless. Instead of giving scum the opportunity to weasel away I took the initiative to lay the final vote.

[Sundy]

No Sundy I hammered because I

didn't

want another "oh let's hear their excuse and find a new target" debate. That would've been needless. Instead of giving scum the opportunity to weasel away I took the initiative to lay the final vote.

Ah I see what you mean. You DIDN'T want people to rethink their votes. My interpretation was off.

[Mute]

@Mute

You seem to contradict yourself here. The very first line says I'm not your top suspect anymore... but the last paragraph is pretty much all about how I talked my way out of getting lynched and you "aren't buying" my claims of being town. Either I'm town or I'm not, there is no other option. You can't "not buy it" and think someone else is scum, especially now that there is only one scum left. Before Stels got lynched, there was a legit reason to focus on someone else. You could ignore me and build your case for a lynch against another player. Now you have to choose one person.

Remember when I first started, "everyone's scum to my eyes and posts prove otherwise?" This is not contradictory, my saying that.

I think Nacho got NKd simply because he was the IC. The choice of NKing an experienced player seems obvious, even to me, and Ty has barely been around at all. Nacho and Stels have both said that the game, and their own scum hunting, really starts to pick up after the first day. That would mean the experienced players become a greater threat at that time. I don't think it had anything to do with anything nacho said.

According to your list above, Neuky, Ty and you are town (3/9), Stels and Nacho are out (5/9), and I'm not your top suspect (6/9).
That leaves Sundy, veridis, and TP42.
TP42 has been acknowledged by others as pretty much the most town player in here so far, and I agree.
Sundy has come on pretty strong to me and appears town. He got the correct read on Stels, but then he picks a less likely second suspect in Mute? Everyone else was saying that I would look super scummy if Stels flipped scum. It seems like if Sundy was coming in to the game in that situation as scum, it would be SUPER easy to jump on that band wagon and get Stels lynched and then me mislynched D2.
veridis is AWOL again, so who knows. Again, just picking on a lurker for an easy lynch target.

What I'm doing now is weighing in on who would benefit most from him dead. People he's targeted, people that've targeted him, so on and so forth. Scum does not kill without reason.

Your reasoning for lynching Stels is still extremely weak to me(You even said so above!), despite him actually flipping scum. His conversation with Nacho simply seems like genuine friendly banter between two people who know each other to me. After the failhammer incident, I would expect everyone in this thread (myself included) to have a solid reason for laying down the hammer, but nope. You just come in swinging with an admittedly weak argument.

"Friendly banter," or needless fluff by scum to appear as town as possible to a friend?
After your failed attempt at prematurely ending the day, yeah, people would expect a solid reason..but coming from you I don't take that as seriously as if from others.
Also, even if it was a weak case, I was right with everyone else that voted, that Stels was scum.

Lastly, according to the wiki... F11 setups with a cop are either 6 town, 1 cop, 2 goons or 5 town, 1 cop, 1 doc, 1 goon and 1 mafia RB. So either we are left with a goon and 6 town, or a doc, an RB and 5 town.

Good eye, missed that in preview. The comma after godfather should be a semi-colon, and godfather should be RB.

[Workdawg]

Rather then more quotes, I'll just address your points in order.

1. I concede that it works based on your "scum until proven town" methodology, as silly as that way of thinking seems to me.
2. I look forward to your analysis. In the mean time, would you care to comment on my analysis of your top 3 choices?
3. What difference does it make if I point out that you had a weak reason for hammering or if someone else does? If Sundy quoted me and asked you to reply, would you answer him? Are you just ignoring anything I bring up that you don't have a good answer to, like you have the entire game?

[Neuky]

Secondly: Nacho you idiot. This is why I say that; why did you make yourself a target? =_= *sigh* Well, at least with your death finding the last scum will be easy.

and

I'll make sure the last scum is found though.

@ Mute - I'd like you to elaborate on these statements if possible - especially the "easy" bit?

[theplague42]

I'm just going to go everything so far in order, so it may be disjointed. Also, I may ask questions that have already been answered.
Edit: Ended up being a wall of epic proportions. Sorry for that.

Can you sum up your case, TP? I am guessing it boils down to these ideas:

1) Stels giving "advice" to Dawg
2) Stels saying Dawg/Mute was town-on-town

In regard to 2, it seems like this could be a bid to protect Mute just as well
In regard to 1, Stels was being suspicious (trying to paint Dawg into a box based on something he didn't say), but I don't get why he'd tell another scum to claim VT, you'd think he'd want the opposite

I have good vibes from Dawg and I am feeling much more like a

VOTE: Mute

Pretty much. Based on stuff up to Mute lynching Stels, Workdawg was much more likely to be scum than Mute, IMO. But Mute lynching Stels like that and Stels being scummy is incredibly scummy. In retrospect, I feel equal about the two of them. I'll decide by the time I finish reading all the new stuff.

And so it begins, I suppose.

It does indeed.

Could you at least do me the service of providing a reason, or specific case, that I could attempt to refute? I've already shown that Stels had provided other people with advice too. Voting for me based on the play of someone else who flips scum is a pretty weak argument if you ask me. Especially when the idea of the team was proposed so early that it would be extremely easy for that scum player to buddy up to me to draw attention away from his partner. I guess I understand why Nacho said not to deal in scumteams...

Requesting stuff to refute? Little suspicious to me.

Tl;dr: I think Mute is probably scum and he bussed Stels to try and get suspicion on me for the Stels/Workdawg scumteam idea that’s been floating about.

The first half is a good theory. I don't particularly understand the part about suspicion. How did bussing Stels throw suspicion on you?

I do like the rest of your argument against Mute. I'm not going to comment specifically on anything, but you definitely made good points, specifically about Mute's earlier lack of suspicion on Stels and his inconsistency when dealing with lurkers.

The MS Word thing was definitely the reason why it did that. Use NotePad (Microsoft) or TextEdit (Mac) instead, as the beginning and ending quotation marks are the same. That should work.

@Mute, I'd like details as to why and when you had suspicions of Stel... "That I'm not afraid to hammer" is not a good justification for doing so and it is in fact a scummy one as it suggests that you hammered for our benefit, to prove something about yourself

Good reasoning. It (Mute's hammer) looks very much like weak bussing.

Zeroth:

@Mod: How'd that prod work out, will veridis be here or are you going to look for someone else (again)?

Firstly: I am withholding my vote. Dawg, you're not my top suspect any longer.

In that case, who is?

Secondly: Nacho you idiot. This is why I say that; why did you make yourself a target? =_= *sigh* Well, at least with your death finding the last scum will be easy. But..

@Stels:
Nothing fun happens until Day 3 . But I'm likely to be killed early in this game, so I might as well make the best out of the time I have, right?

Just lynch the last scum after I'm gone, okay?

I can guess he assumed he was going to die? Iuno. I'll make sure the last scum is found though.

How did he make himself a target? I see no reason why he would be pegged as cop. IMO, he was killed because of the usual meta of killing the IC first. That comment was most likely directed at his status as IC, not cop.

Thirdly: @Sundy- Go read Stels' first few posts. Read the posts of his where he mentions Nacho. I can't describe it but they felt out of place for me, especially the first post of his where "he was happy to see him." Combined later on with he says how townie Nacho can be, but this really stood out. Why? At the end, the "hope you're not scum" and "would like to sweep scum with you;" these were trying too hard. They were weaker cases and I didn't mention them, as most of my focus was towards Dawg.

I don't really see how this points to Stels being scum. If anything, it looks more like scumbuddy talk to me.

Fourth: Nacho was the cop, meaning that either the last mafia is a godfather, or a goon, and town may or may not have a doctor still in hiding. I will assume the 2 goon-1 cop-6 town setup from today on with my case making. I don't wanna have a case built up on relying on a doctor if there isn't one.

There is no godfather in newbie games. The only possible scum PR is roleblocker. It would also be beneficial to know that the other scumplayer knows the setup, depending on whether they are a goon or RB.

Fifth: I believe Ty to be town, Neuky may be town, and I know I am town. This is all I will reveal at the moment until I can organize my thoughts better.

I agree. Except that you're looking really scummy to me by now.

Lastly: You may not like my defense for lynching Stels. That's cool if you don't. I wanted to hammer because, if I were to put them into L-1 people might start to re-think their votes. This is the frustration I had with Dawg. While it still amazes me everyone's accepted that it was a "newbie mistake" of his to nearly lynch Ty, it is only so because of him repeating it over and over, and everyone just accepting it as true. Psychology has a term for this, where if an individual repeats something over and over, the group will eventually accept it to be true. I did not and I will not fall for it, and I still call it a scum-slip, but Nacho's posts are why he was killed and I intend to find out why.

Ummm, you never gave an actual psychology term. And this is a game where constant repetition is actually suspicious, IMO. No, I don't like your reason for lynching Stels. It looks like rushed bussing to me. Please do tell where Nacho was pegged as cop. Right now, I have no reason to believe that he was killed for being anything other than the IC.

Now if I may do a little psychology myself, I think this points to the other scum player as a newbie. That is, not Ty. Assuming that the scum didn't know Nacho was cop, who would be most dangerous later in the day? The IC, as Nacho even admitted himself. By that logic, Workdawg and Mute seem like the most likely suspects. Veridis hasn't been around enough to send in a kill and Neuky seems town to me.

Ok - 5 people voted to lynch Stels, but add me as well, as Mute beat me to it.

That's six out of 9 players. Stels voted for me, and veridis had gone awol. That leaves Dawg not voting for him.

You're leaving out the fact that Mute may have been bussing.

Now consider Stels' posts that we considered to be coaching.
There's only two things he could have been up to.
He was either coaching his scum buddy, or casting suspicions on a townie - but if he had done that to me, I'd have been very suspicious of him. So how could Dawg not see the scumminess of Stels' behaviour if everyone else could? The whole of day 1 - neither Stels nor Dawg got strongly on to each other - despite the two of them doing the scummiest things. Just plain odd.

That's a good point, but I don't have enough confidence in Dawg's scumhunting ability to make that a strong argument. (Sorry Dawg, but I'm just being Simon Cowell-honest )

As for Mute: The hammer was a real surprise, as I was going to ask Stels for a claim first.

It panned out OK of course.

Now, I know the Scum-Mute may have done that on purpose, but then, I would have thought he would have considered me asking Stels to claim first (wouldn't most of you?), and then he would have known that there was a decent chance that Stels claiming a PR may have bought them an extra day as a scum pair, at the cost of (most likely) a town-Dawg lynch. If there's something wrong with my logic, let me know. Here's one for Ty/sundy - surely most scum hammering scum events occur after a claim (probably a VT one at that no?)

It almost panned out

too

OK. Makes me very suspicious. I will say that your logic is a little too WIFOM for my taste. I do think that Mute may have quick-bussed his partner to stop suspicion where it was at. That is, he was getting nervous and wanted to make sure none of that suspicion moved over to him.

[quote="Workdawg}According to your list above, Neuky, Ty and you are town (3/9), Stels and Nacho are out (5/9), and I'm not your top suspect (6/9).
That leaves Sundy, veridis, and TP42.
TP42 has been acknowledged by others as pretty much the most town player in here so far, and I agree.
Sundy has come on pretty strong to me and appears town. He got the correct read on Stels, but then he picks a less likely second suspect in Mute? Everyone else was saying that I would look super scummy if Stels flipped scum. It seems like if Sundy was coming in to the game in that situation as scum, it would be SUPER easy to jump on that band wagon and get Stels lynched and then me mislynched D2.
veridis is AWOL again, so who knows. Again, just picking on a lurker for an easy lynch target.[/quote]
Workdawg, I may be falling in love with you. (no homo!) Now that you say this, killing Nacho instead of me (if I'm really considered the most towny) may have been a weak attempt at WIFOM. Sundy's unfortunate that he hasn't really been around that long, and so would make an easy target. You would be scummy if Stels flipped scum because of the advice thing. But your recent spat of posts makes the original advice look like just SE-talk. Veridis would indeed be an easy lynch. It's funny that Mute flipped on his view of lurkers.

Mute implying that either Sundy or veridis is his suspect is really scummy. Veridis is just a simple lurker IMO, and Sundy hasn't been around enough to get a good read. I will say that the immediate jump on the bandwagon seems funny, but wagons happen for a reason. It could be that he just thought Stels was indeed the scummiest. In that case, Mute completely fell for it.

As for your considerations in the middle. I think you are presenting a false dilema here. You present the following:
1. Stels is coaching his scum buddy.
2. Stels is casting suspicion on a town player.

I would propose 3. Stels was simply playing the SE role. Of course, this is just going to sound like I'm trying to hide behind that defense, but it's the truth. Like I said above, I never saw a GOOD reason to consider Stels scum posted.

Something like this is hard to figure out. In retrospect, it will seem obvious what it was. I agree that it was a false dilemma, but your third choice is also a false dilemma. It could definitely be 1 under the guise of 3. But I don't particularly think 2 could be combined with 3.

Maybe he was also pissed at you guys for getting on his wagon with weak reasons, who knows. Obviously I didn't read him correctly.

Maybe he was pissed that we were right

No Sundy I hammered because I

didn't

want another "oh let's hear their excuse and find a new target" debate. That would've been needless. Instead of giving scum the opportunity to weasel away I took the initiative to lay the final vote.

You mean you took away any more info we may have gotten. There was no way we were going to switch votes away from Stels. I know I wasn't.

No Sundy I hammered because I

didn't

want another "oh let's hear their excuse and find a new target" debate. That would've been needless. Instead of giving scum the opportunity to weasel away I took the initiative to lay the final vote.

Ah I see what you mean. You DIDN'T want people to rethink their votes. My interpretation was off.

Lol exactly! He wanted to make sure that his buddy was lynched and he was the innocent, brave townie who hammered at the risk of facing our wrath afterward.

Remember when I first started, "everyone's scum to my eyes and posts prove otherwise?" This is not contradictory, my saying that.

No, it wasn't. But that certainly seems like a gentle way from pushing yourself away from scum, viewing everyone else as scum.

What I'm doing now is weighing in on who would benefit most from him dead. People he's targeted, people that've targeted him, so on and so forth. Scum does not kill without reason.

So Nacho being the IC isn't reason enough? It certainly seems like it to me.

"Friendly banter," or needless fluff by scum to appear as town as possible to a friend?
After your failed attempt at prematurely ending the day, yeah, people would expect a solid reason..but coming from you I don't take that as seriously as if from others.
Also, even if it was a weak case, I was right with everyone else that voted, that Stels was scum.

Friendly banter is often used to buddy up with someone. That's

exactly

what makes me suspicious. You didn't really say much about Stels other than defending him. You really had no reason to hammer Stels unless you knew that he was scum.

Lastly, according to the wiki... F11 setups with a cop are either 6 town, 1 cop, 2 goons or 5 town, 1 cop, 1 doc, 1 goon and 1 mafia RB. So either we are left with a goon and 6 town, or a doc, an RB and 5 town.

Good eye, missed that in preview. The comma after godfather should be a semi-colon, and godfather should be RB.

Good, I see that the RB-GF thing has already been cleared up.

Suspect list:
1. Mute- hammering without a real reason plus the possibility of bussing
2. Sundy- jumps on wagon after replacing in
3. Workdawg- still the advice thing, but last few posts are very towny

Unvote

Vote: Mute

[Workdawg]

Wow yeah... disjointed seems like an understatement almost.

Requesting stuff to refute? Little suspicious to me.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for you to present your case. As far as I can remember, the last thing you said about me was something like "if Stels is scum, I think workdawg is scum too" and vice versa. That's a pretty weak case. If you have real reasons, why wouldn't you want to share them?

The first half is a good theory. I don't particularly understand the part about suspicion. How did bussing Stels throw suspicion on you?

You're the one who said if Stels flipped scum, I would look more scummy... so you tell me. Assuming Mute is scum, he would have known that Stels would flip scum, and that you and others would look at me as extra scummy because of the flip.

Looks like there is some quote fail in there, so I pulled that whole chunk out and fixed it here (i think)...

According to your list above, Neuky, Ty and you are town (3/9), Stels and Nacho are out (5/9), and I'm not your top suspect (6/9).
That leaves Sundy, veridis, and TP42.
TP42 has been acknowledged by others as pretty much the most town player in here so far, and I agree.
Sundy has come on pretty strong to me and appears town. He got the correct read on Stels, but then he picks a less likely second suspect in Mute? Everyone else was saying that I would look super scummy if Stels flipped scum. It seems like if Sundy was coming in to the game in that situation as scum, it would be SUPER easy to jump on that band wagon and get Stels lynched and then me mislynched D2.
veridis is AWOL again, so who knows. Again, just picking on a lurker for an easy lynch target.

Workdawg, I may be falling in love with you. (no homo!) Now that you say this, killing Nacho instead of me (if I'm really considered the most towny) may have been a weak attempt at WIFOM. Sundy's unfortunate that he hasn't really been around that long, and so would make an easy target. You would be scummy if Stels flipped scum because of the advice thing. But your recent spat of posts makes the original advice look like just SE-talk. Veridis would indeed be an easy lynch. It's funny that Mute flipped on his view of lurkers.

Mute implying that either Sundy or veridis is his suspect is really scummy. Veridis is just a simple lurker IMO, and Sundy hasn't been around enough to get a good read. I will say that the immediate jump on the bandwagon seems funny, but wagons happen for a reason. It could be that he just thought Stels was indeed the scummiest. In that case, Mute completely fell for it.

I don't really have much to say about it, but I missed the quote fail the first time, so thought I'd fix it so people can actually read it.
My thoughts, I agree.

And here is the second part of the quote fail:

As for your considerations in the middle. I think you are presenting a false dilema here. You present the following:
1. Stels is coaching his scum buddy.
2. Stels is casting suspicion on a town player.

I would propose 3. Stels was simply playing the SE role. Of course, this is just going to sound like I'm trying to hide behind that defense, but it's the truth. Like I said above, I never saw a GOOD reason to consider Stels scum posted.

Something like this is hard to figure out. In retrospect, it will seem obvious what it was. I agree that it was a false dilemma, but your third choice is also a false dilemma. It could definitely be 1 under the guise of 3. But I don't particularly think 2 could be combined with 3.

I think 3 is a completely separate choice. I think when 1 was proposed originally by Neuky, he intended for it to be implied that Stels was trying to "hide the coaching" under SE talk. I know that he wasn't trying to scum-coach me, so unless it was some weird attempt to communicate with whoever else is scum, then it was just straight up SE talk.

Other than that, I generally agree with your statements. Maybe I love you too... (no homo)

====
Sorry for the wall, requoting the quote failure is the main cause... <.< >.>

[theplague42]

Wow yeah... disjointed seems like an understatement almost.

Requesting stuff to refute? Little suspicious to me.

I don't think it's unreasonable to ask for you to present your case. As far as I can remember, the last thing you said about me was something like "if Stels is scum, I think workdawg is scum too" and vice versa. That's a pretty weak case. If you have real reasons, why wouldn't you want to share them?

Truthfully, that was all I had on you. And the only thing in the game except for previous suspicions of Mute. I didn't think your play was directly ultra scummy. The relationship between you and Stels was suspicious.

The first half is a good theory. I don't particularly understand the part about suspicion. How did bussing Stels throw suspicion on you?

You're the one who said if Stels flipped scum, I would look more scummy... so you tell me. Assuming Mute is scum, he would have known that Stels would flip scum, and that you and others would look at me as extra scummy because of the flip.

Yes, Stels being scum puts suspicion on you. But when Mute busses Stels like he did, then all suspicion goes back to him. It just isn't worth the suspicion it puts on you. I still believe it's bussing, but not for that reason.

Thanks for fixing the quotes. I didn't see it in preview.

And here is the second part of the quote fail:

As for your considerations in the middle. I think you are presenting a false dilema here. You present the following:
1. Stels is coaching his scum buddy.
2. Stels is casting suspicion on a town player.

I would propose 3. Stels was simply playing the SE role. Of course, this is just going to sound like I'm trying to hide behind that defense, but it's the truth. Like I said above, I never saw a GOOD reason to consider Stels scum posted.

Something like this is hard to figure out. In retrospect, it will seem obvious what it was. I agree that it was a false dilemma, but your third choice is also a false dilemma. It could definitely be 1 under the guise of 3. But I don't particularly think 2 could be combined with 3.

I think 3 is a completely separate choice. I think when 1 was proposed originally by Neuky, he intended for it to be implied that Stels was trying to "hide the coaching" under SE talk. I know that he wasn't trying to scum-coach me, so unless it was some weird attempt to communicate with whoever else is scum, then it was just straight up SE talk.[/quote]
Actually, that's not a bad idea. Stels may indeed have been communicating to someone. I don't have time now, but tomorrow I'll look back and see if anyone else "claimed" townie sometime. Not a true claim, but just saying "I'm a townie" in a post. It's an interesting possibility for sure, and we have plenty of time.

Also, forgot to say, but I think that puts Mute at L-1 since it's three to lynch. Solid, concrete, true claim time.

[theplague42]

Agghhh another quote fail! Eh, it's readable.

Btw is my distinction between "official" claim and "in post" claim clear? I can try to explain more if not.

[Workdawg]

Woah, I suppose it is 4 votes to lynch... and by my count, Sundy, Me and you = 3... so L-1 indeed.

[Mute]

Lol exactly! He wanted to make sure that his buddy was lynched and he was the innocent, brave townie who hammered at the risk of facing our wrath afterward.

You'll be surprised by how sharp Occams Razor is.

Woah, I suppose it is 4 votes to lynch... and by my count, Sundy, Me and you = 3... so L-1 indeed.

I'm just as surprised that I'm currently at L-1, less than 24 hours into D2.

Secondly: Nacho you idiot. This is why I say that; why did you make yourself a target? =_= *sigh* Well, at least with your death finding the last scum will be easy.

and

I'll make sure the last scum is found though.

@ Mute - I'd like you to elaborate on these statements if possible - especially the "easy" bit?

Well, it isn't as easy as I had first thought, but I'll see how well I can elaborate what I meant.
Disregard that he was the IC this game; he's done enough posting to merit him being a target N1. He's questioned nigh on everyone in the game, and given nothing solid to go on, e.g. "This person is scum because [X, Y, Z]," except only in passing. I've a great deal of talent when it comes to picking up on reads of people, i.e. whether or not I like what I see. So far (real life and game-wise), it's proven pretty damn successful. Believe me or not, I've got the hammer of Stels this game and my first game here as a doc (link in sig) that should speak enough as evidence to that end.

HoS: Plague:

you put me into L-1, and ~2 hours later announce I am at L-1.
But hey, you asked me to claim so- I am a Vanilla townie.

Ummm, you never gave an actual psychology term. And this is a game where constant repetition is actually suspicious, IMO.

A) I don't know the term. I'm looking through google/wikipedia at the moment to find it, but while doing so I found this interesting thing: semmelweis reflex. 'ccoring do here it's listed as "the tendency to reject new evidence that contradicts an established paradigm." Why bring it up? Town: Don't fall victim to this. If you've reason enough to think someone is scum go for it. But make sure it's right.
B) If you think that, then why is your vote now on me and not Dawg? I've read what you've posted and I don't feel you're being strong enough for a townie to be pushing for my lynch.

Zeroth:

@Mod: How'd that prod work out, will veridis be here or are you going to look for someone else (again)?

Firstly: I am withholding my vote. Dawg, you're not my top suspect any longer.

In that case, who is?

You are.
Since I know it'll come eventually, pre-empting questions here:
"Why aren't you voting for plague if he's your top suspect?"
1- Because if I'm going to vote it won't be for something that can be played off as OMGUS. I want my votes to matter.
2- I'd like to hear more and see how things progress. If I feel the need to later on I'll make my vote.

Rather then more quotes, I'll just address your points in order.

1. I concede that it works based on your "scum until proven town" methodology, as silly as that way of thinking seems to me.
2. I look forward to your analysis. In the mean time, would you care to comment on my analysis of your top 3 choices?
3. What difference does it make if I point out that you had a weak reason for hammering or if someone else does? If Sundy quoted me and asked you to reply, would you answer him? Are you just ignoring anything I bring up that you don't have a good answer to, like you have the entire game?

1)

No comment there. Conflicting thought processes aren't anything seriously worth mentioning in case-building, as it's needless fluff. Its worked for me so far, so there's that.

2)

Not a problem. But, correct me if I'm wrong, you're referencing here, right?

According to your list above, Neuky, Ty and you are town (3/9), Stels and Nacho are out (5/9), and I'm not your top suspect (6/9).
That leaves Sundy, veridis, and TP42.
TP42 has been acknowledged by others as pretty much the most town player in here so far, and I agree.

Sundy has come on pretty strong to me and appears town. He got the correct read on Stels, but then he picks a less likely second suspect in Mute? Everyone else was saying that I would look super scummy if Stels flipped scum. It seems like if Sundy was coming in to the game in that situation as scum, it would be SUPER easy to jump on that band wagon and get Stels lynched and then me mislynched D2.

veridis is AWOL again, so who knows. Again, just picking on a lurker for an easy lynch target.

This is correct in whom is remaining.
I'd like to ask you to rephrase the bolded in a more cohesive manner if you could, no matter how many times I re-read it I can't follow it.
RE: Veri - Yes. Scum want to avoid suspicion. Veri could be scum doing so, or he could
RE: plague - An aside first: Stels was scum and Nacho was cop, which leaves Ty as the last of the SE/IC players here. Deductive reasoning I'm using is that it's unlikely that scum will both be more experienced players, so with the experienced down it leaves the regular players to check. Using that I cleared Ty of suspicion for myself entirely. Neuky and plague are both arguably the strongest towns players here, but I only listed Neuky as I've felt he was the strongest. The way plague's posted this game felt too waxy for me for him to be town.
RE: Sundy - (s)he was on the right trail with Stels, and I don't deny I've done scummy things according to others, but I am not about to change how I am playing this game because of that. Sundy feels town to me, as they've brought information to the table and have cross-checked the existing info as well.

3)

If I am posed a question by Sundy, I'll answer it. Don't see why you had to include yourself into that equation but okay.
The difference? I made sure of the vote count. My vote for Stels was because I had enough reason to vote for him. You voted and attempted to hammer Ty simply because you were eager to advance the game and thought he was already at L-1 incorrectly. That's the difference between our two "hammer" votes.
And I ignore your questions which are either ambiguous, or have no real way of being answered, or I have already answered. Mainly because it seems no matter what answers I give you, you're hardly ever satisfied with them.

[Mute]

ERP DERP DIDERPER DER.

EBWOP: "RE: Veri - Yes. Scum want to avoid suspicion. Veri could be scum doing so, or he could"
*cont: be just uninterested in the game, hence why I am asking the progress with his prod.

Also, in afterthought:

@Mod: Vote count and repeating my earlier question, s'il vous plait?

[Neuky]

Here we go again, an L-1 with veridis still nowhere to be seen.. When veridis did post, he seemed pretty town to me, and I wouldn't mind hearing what he has to say, so what's the rush? Mute seems pretty unpanicked about L-1 too. This is interesting, as Stels reaction was awful, and I remember Dawg's reaction persuaded me to drop my vote at the time.

[Sundy]

unvote

I'm not entirely satisfied by Mute's answers and he's still my #1 suspect, but there are a few players who haven't even checked in today and this wagon built up REALLY fast IMO, no need for trigger happiness.

@Ty, Veridiwhatsit: your thoughts on all this?

[Sundy]

An aside first: Stels was scum and Nacho was cop, which leaves Ty as the last of the SE/IC players here. Deductive reasoning I'm using is that it's unlikely that scum will both be more experienced players, so with the experienced down it leaves the regular players to check. Using that I cleared Ty of suspicion for myself entirely.

A note here: I am actually a SE player as well.

Also your logic on Ty does not work. The probability of one player being scum is uncorrelated with the probability of another player being scum (except for there being 2 out of 9 overall), so the Stels flip has no relationship with Ty in terms of experience level.

[Workdawg]

@Mute

You aren't voting for TP42 because it could be played off as OMGUS? That seems like a really lame attempt to cover up not having a case against him. The only way that your vote could be played off as an OMGUS vote is if that is indeed the case. If you can back up your vote with a reasonable case, then the people who claim OMGUS would look more suspicious, IMO.

In regards to the bolded statement on Sundy. I was offering justification on my read of him being town. I feel that if Sundy was scum subbing into the game in the state it was in at the time, he would have more likely picked Stels and I as his primary targets. There is plenty of ammo out there for no one to question his argument to pick me as his #2 choice. He could bus Stels and then start reguritating all the old junk about me and the Stels/Dawg team to push for a mislynch against me. Instead, he choose a less popular choice for his #2 and he backed it up with his own arguments, supported by quotes (proving he actually read the thread and has his own theories, IMO). This seems a lot more town to me than just jumping on whatever wagons are currently in motion... which would be the scum play.

Sundy points out your failed math/logic again (this is the same thing as the Nacho at 55, from the start of the game). Every player has an exactly equal chance of being scum, and as such, every pair of people has an exactly equal chance of being scum-buddies. Your argument for TP42, as far as I can tell, is simply that he was the last person left when you cleared everyone else and that his posts have "felt too waxy".

Could you elaborate on what you mean by that (the "felt too waxy" part)? Examples would be awesome

You claim to have "a great deal of talent" reading people, and you quote your hammer on Stels and your last game? I haven't read your last game, but I'd point out that you were certain I was scum already this game, so at BEST you are 1 for 2 this game... and the idea that you bussed your scum partner in Stels would pretty much nullify any read that you've made this game.

For #3 from our previous discussion (quoted completely below) maybe you forgot the context of this question... because I was the only person in the equation to begin with.

Your reasoning for lynching Stels is still extremely weak to me(You even said so above!), despite him actually flipping scum. His conversation with Nacho simply seems like genuine friendly banter between two people who know each other to me. After the failhammer incident, I would expect everyone in this thread (myself included) to have a solid reason for laying down the hammer, but nope. You just come in swinging with an admittedly weak argument.

"Friendly banter," or needless fluff by scum to appear as town as possible to a friend?
After your failed attempt at prematurely ending the day, yeah, people would expect a solid reason..

but coming from you I don't take that as seriously as if from others.

Also, even if it was a weak case, I was right with everyone else that voted, that Stels was scum.

3. What difference does it make if I point out that you had a weak reason for hammering or if someone else does? If Sundy quoted me and asked you to reply, would you answer him? Are you just ignoring anything I bring up that you don't have a good answer to, like you have the entire game?

3) If I am posed a question by Sundy, I'll answer it. Don't see why you had to include yourself into that equation but okay.
The difference? I made sure of the vote count. My vote for Stels was because I had enough reason to vote for him. You voted and attempted to hammer Ty simply because you were eager to advance the game and thought he was already at L-1 incorrectly. That's the difference between our two "hammer" votes.
And I ignore your questions which are either ambiguous, or have no real way of being answered, or I have already answered. Mainly because it seems no matter what answers I give you, you're hardly ever satisfied with them.

You are pretty much just saying that you don't care what I think about you (see bold in the quote). I picked Sundy because you have been answering his questions.

I feel like I should also mention that people keep implying that the only reason I voted Ty was because I wanted to advance game. That's not true and I've said it countless times. I wouldn't have to keep saying it if people would stop bringing it up. You can quote some psychology BS (that you can't even think of the name of, lol) all you want, but I'm not the one bringing it up. You MIGHT have an argument that I'm trying to trick people by saying the same thing over and over again without any reason to do so... but you and Ty are the ones who keep saying it. Maybe it's you that is trying to manipulate people by saying the same thing over and over again.

Back to #3 from above:
My question was neither ambiguous nor already answered. Maybe "there's no real way to answer it" I suppose... but since I was pretty much asking you why you voted for Stels, you should absolutely have an answer for that.

Maybe it's a flaw in my style, that I lay out too much information that my questions aren't very direct.
In the interest of being as unambiguous as I can:

You say that you were suspicious of Stels, but didn't want to get to L-1 and have the wagon get spooked off.

Before hammering Stels, why were you so set on lynching a lurker?

Do you have any other reasons for voting for Stels besides what you've already posted?

Why didn't you lay out your evidence and try to encourage the town to lynch him?

Now that Stels has flipped scum:

What is your evidence against TP42 for being your top scum target?

[theplague42]

Lol exactly! He wanted to make sure that his buddy was lynched and he was the innocent, brave townie who hammered at the risk of facing our wrath afterward.

You'll be surprised by how sharp Occams Razor is.

Sorry, not in this game. Simple gets scum lynched. Complicated is what scum likes.

Secondly: Nacho you idiot. This is why I say that; why did you make yourself a target? =_= *sigh* Well, at least with your death finding the last scum will be easy.

and

I'll make sure the last scum is found though.

@ Mute - I'd like you to elaborate on these statements if possible - especially the "easy" bit?

These two quotes look like Mute is trying to portray himself as the savior of the town. He just

knew

that Stels was scum, and is confident in his ability to find the other.

Well, it isn't as easy as I had first thought, but I'll see how well I can elaborate what I meant.
Disregard that he was the IC this game; he's done enough posting to merit him being a target N1. He's questioned nigh on everyone in the game, and given nothing solid to go on, e.g. "This person is scum because [X, Y, Z]," except only in passing. I've a great deal of talent when it comes to picking up on reads of people, i.e. whether or not I like what I see. So far (real life and game-wise), it's proven pretty damn successful. Believe me or not, I've got the hammer of Stels this game and my first game here as a doc (link in sig) that should speak enough as evidence to that end.

Yeah, lying isn't usually as easy as you think it is.

Your argument on why Nacho was lynched seems very logical, surprisingly. Of course, there's always the possibility that you NK'd him because of those reasons. Why are you being so arrogant about your scumhunting ability? All I've heard since you hammered Stels was "Oh, I'm just good at scumhunting" even thought you lost your last game as town. Your unfounded self-confidence is through the roof and is really starting to annoy me. I don't like people who have huge egos.

HoS: Plague:

you put me into L-1, and ~2 hours later announce I am at L-1.
But hey, you asked me to claim so- I am a Vanilla townie.

So why won't you vote me? If I remember correctly, there has already been a discussion about fear of OMGUS earlier in the game. Angry Scientist said that I shouldn't be afraid of OMGUS'ing someone in RVS. Now, you're afraid to do it on your "top" suspect. Personally, I think it's an attempt to continue your WIFOM suspicion on me without being accused of lacking evidence. You have no evidence other than "he's so town, he's scum" and my posts look "waxy." What does that mean anyways? Too perfect?

[theplague42]

Zeroth:

@Mod: How'd that prod work out, will veridis be here or are you going to look for someone else (again)?

Firstly: I am withholding my vote. Dawg, you're not my top suspect any longer.

In that case, who is?

You are.
Since I know it'll come eventually, pre-empting questions here:
"Why aren't you voting for plague if he's your top suspect?"
1- Because if I'm going to vote it won't be for something that can be played off as OMGUS. I want my votes to matter.
2- I'd like to hear more and see how things progress. If I feel the need to later on I'll make my vote.

1. Already presented my case against this.
2. So you want to pursue me as a suspect without putting any pressure on me? What's up with that?

RE: plague - An aside first: Stels was scum and Nacho was cop, which leaves Ty as the last of the SE/IC players here. Deductive reasoning I'm using is that it's unlikely that scum will both be more experienced players, so with the experienced down it leaves the regular players to check. Using that I cleared Ty of suspicion for myself entirely. Neuky and plague are both arguably the strongest towns players here, but I only listed Neuky as I've felt he was the strongest. The way plague's posted this game felt too waxy for me for him to be town.

Once again, you're following the Gamblers Fallacy. First with Nacho, now with Ty.

One person being scum has no effect on the probability of someone else being scum.

Stop using bad logic to try to justify yourself. It ain't working.

RE: Sundy - (s)he was on the right trail with Stels, and I don't deny I've done scummy things according to others, but I am not about to change how I am playing this game because of that. Sundy feels town to me, as they've brought information to the table and have cross-checked the existing info as well.

3)

If I am posed a question by Sundy, I'll answer it. Don't see why you had to include yourself into that equation but okay.
The difference? I made sure of the vote count. My vote for Stels was because I had enough reason to vote for him. You voted and attempted to hammer Ty simply because you were eager to advance the game and thought he was already at L-1 incorrectly. That's the difference between our two "hammer" votes.
And I ignore your questions which are either ambiguous, or have no real way of being answered, or I have already answered. Mainly because it seems no matter what answers I give you, you're hardly ever satisfied with them.

You're having the opposite problem of Workdawg. You refuse to say anything unless specifically asked, and Workdawg is avidly looking to questions to answer.

There is

no

difference between you and Workdawg when it comes to hammering. Both of you truly wanted to lynch the person you voted for. The difference is that you checked the votecount first, probably because you knew what had happened to Workdawg. You wanted to make sure that Stels was lynched and he flipped as scum. This points even more to you bussing Stels.

Here we go again, an L-1 with veridis still nowhere to be seen.. When veridis did post, he seemed pretty town to me, and I wouldn't mind hearing what he has to say, so what's the rush? Mute seems pretty unpanicked about L-1 too. This is interesting, as Stels reaction was awful, and I remember Dawg's reaction persuaded me to drop my vote at the time.

So what do you think that signifies? Is it an honest reaction, or avoiding a reaction like Stels?

unvote

I'm not entirely satisfied by Mute's answers and he's still my #1 suspect, but there are a few players who haven't even checked in today and this wagon built up REALLY fast IMO, no need for trigger happiness.

@Ty, Veridiwhatsit: your thoughts on all this?

I can see where you would want more input, but I don't have much faith in Ty and veridis being around often enough to do that.

An aside first: Stels was scum and Nacho was cop, which leaves Ty as the last of the SE/IC players here. Deductive reasoning I'm using is that it's unlikely that scum will both be more experienced players, so with the experienced down it leaves the regular players to check. Using that I cleared Ty of suspicion for myself entirely.

A note here: I am actually a SE player as well.

Also your logic on Ty does not work. The probability of one player being scum is uncorrelated with the probability of another player being scum (except for there being 2 out of 9 overall), so the Stels flip has no relationship with Ty in terms of experience level.

Already pointed out, so ignore when I said it above.

I second every one of Workdawg's questions as he ninja'ed me on a couple. I hadn't thought of the one about lurkers and whether he had any other reasons for hammering Stels.

[Mute]

Vote: Mute

Here. I'm gonna set this here, go take care of some personal business, then come back and read what was posted between my two posts.

[Workdawg]

Angry scum is angry?

FoS: Mute for putting himself at L-1 and not announcing it...

<.<
>.>

[Sundy]

Don't vote for yourself. It's not playing to your win condition either way

[theplague42]

Self-voting?

[theplague42]

Doesn't make any sense to me.

[Mute]

Unvote

Yay driving.
Errands are done, but I'm going out drinking with some friends tonight, some broohaha about a party or some such, iuno. I was invited so why not.

Vote was a test, yielded no results sadly, but speculations came to mind whilst I was out.
@Sundy: Everything I've done is for a reason. I know, I'm appearing as very scummy to you all. If you wanna lynch me for it be my guest, you'd all be justified in that, but it won't get you the last scum kill.

@Dawg: (this is the shortest response I can make to you out of the questions you posed) you said this: "Why didn't you lay out your evidence and try to encourage the town to lynch him?" I don't want scum knowing every thought I've got. While information is good, some information can hurt town more than help it. I withheld my thoughts for that reason.
Also no I cannot at this time explain why I said I felt his posts were waxy. That is the vibe I got from them, so no that I cannot answer.

@Neuky: I know, lack of surprise at nearly being lynched, such a shock! *Gasp!*
Seriously, though, it doesn't bother me. People wanna lynch me, their choice. If they feel it's right then I can do but give what I've got and hope people listen to it, whether I'm alive or dead.
An aside, I'm still wondering why and who would benefit from Nacho being dead. Been busy with naval stuff (got too much crap to try to memorize) and other responsibilities so once I get back tonight (if I'm not too hammered) or tomorrow when I wake up (in case I do get too hammered) I'm going to read through this thread again, starting over with my reads.

Off to shower and get ready.