Newbie 1022 - Game Over

[drmyshottyizsik]

shit... thats early ok i'll try to get on.

[DavidParker]

I'm a VT.

For the sake of self-preservation:

Vote: KingCheese

If you honestly think I was trying to push a no lynch Vox that's retarded.

[drmyshottyizsik]

ok VT claim,,, hammer time.

[AurorusVox]

DP: Why switch at this late hour if it wasn't to disrupt our lynch chances? Or do you honestly think you had enough support for a Leech lynch? And look - TL said exactly what I thought he'd say, that he would consider keeping you alive for your Leech vote.

[DavidParker]

Vote: Leech

More likely scum than KC at this poitn, although I still have a strong read on KC-scum.

I was expecting people to find it scummy. Well maybe not [TheLonging]

I'm pretty sure Vox is scum at this point since he used my vote switch "against me". That's a bit too easy a reason to hop on my wagon after being on KC's wagon.

Vox+Leech or Vox+KC seems likely.

[Kingcheese]

We only have a little over 2 hours. I wish Leech would hop in here.

To be honest DP a NL lynch seemed like the only possibility you could have been trying to push there. Leech was in no way going to garner the voting support you needed so close to the deadline.

Your also FOSing Vox because he used his vote hop against him? Why wouldn't he? To me it seems like scum motivations could have been the only thing behind that vote hop. I'm not really sure how you could have found it town.

[TheLonging]

vote: davidparker

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

Kingcheese - 2 (drmyshottyizsik, DavidParker)
TheLonging - 1 (Leech)

DavidParker - 4 (Kingcheese, VasudeVa, AurorusVox, TheLonging)

Not Voting - 0 ()

4 to Lynch.

Click for Deadline

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

A flurry of votes as the day ends seals David's fate. The mob marches him off to the gallows, where his true allegiance is revealed.

DavidParker,

Townie

, lynched Day 2

Night has begun. Those of you with night actions must submit your choices

by the deadline.

Looking for a replacement for Leech. If a replacement isn't found before the deadline, any Night action Leech may have will be randomized to prevent meta-game strategies.

xvart replaces Leech.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

You find TheLonging's body in the town square the next day. Another serious blow to a Town which is fading fast! Time's running out!

TheLonging,

Cop

, killed Night 2

Day 3 has begun. With 5 alive, it takes 3 to lynch. Deadline is Sunday, December 26.

[AurorusVox]

Damnit. Well, I think it's pretty obvious that Shotty was TL's innocent report. Treating him as a clear townie.

VV, KC: did you pick up on his crumbs?

Since Leech has been replaced, I can't really push this question at xvart (hello btw!) but I would like to point out that I think TL's crumb was sufficiently obvious that I find it very odd that Leech did not notice it. Clearly this is what Leech would have us believe, since he voted TL and even when I pushed him to read TL's posts carefully, he never seemed to acknowledge the crumbs. For such a perceptive player, that doesn't sit well with me. This is why I said I had four scenarios in mind; 1/4 had both as townies, 3/4 had one as scum. Just to explain further, I'll share what they were. Bolded are the ones that are still relevant.

(1) Leech is VT, TL is cop: Leech either did not pick up the crumb (unlikely); or did not believe it but did not want to push TL on it specifically (why not?)

(2) Leech is scum, TL is VT: Leech did not pick up the accidental crumb, because he knew that this was the one PR setup and therefore did not think that TL would be crumbing cop <<< Clearly not true
(3) Leech is cop, TL is scum: Leech's picked up the crumb but knew that it was fake, but did not push TL on it specifically to not out himself as cop <<< Clearly not true.

(4) Leech is scum, TL is cop: Leech picked up the crumb but pretended not to notice it to distance himself from a TL NK. Could be likely.

I really wish Leech was here to answer these accusations. I tried to press him on this yesterday without explicitly outing TL's crumbs, but he didn't seem to notice or engage with it. What makes me uncertain about Leech being scum is that before I noticed TL's crumbs, I felt exactly the same way about TL. All of the points Leech brought up were valid, imo, but were mitigated by his crumb. What makes me uncertain about Leech being town is that I find it very hard to believe that Leech failed to see the crumbs. He strikes me as a competent player, and the oversight feels as though it could have been fabricated.

xvart, I'm not sure how you can address these concerns of mine. Have you read through the thread before now? If so, do you claim to have noticed the crumbs or missed them?

Lastly, I think Shotty and DP both picked it up since they said a number of times "TL is town guys" or words to that effect. I'd like to hear from VV since he didn't really go after TL, and I'd also like to hear from KC because he said he felt TL was town and I'm wondering why that was.

[Kingcheese]

First of all, I said D1, I thought shotty was scum. Today, I KNEW he was town, but said he was scum because I wanted a PL on him because I didn't want to admit I was wrong.

This

read between the lines.

and this.

For the last time my opinion on shotty has changed. While I conducted a readthrough since I had some time I came across that.

I had not come across it prior to this time. Which I am disappointed because it clearly pegs shotty as town and changes my entire opinion from most of the first two days.

If you haven't yet picked up on it I believe it is TL's message/silently outing himself of who he investigated night 1. Which means Shotty you are town.

Now I would like Shotty to please give your opinions on everyone else. And as I believe this is lylo. If the other town members (Me Shotty and ???) vote on one of ourselves then the remaining 2 scum will lynch and we will lose.


So to start the day I would like to

FOS Vox

because of this post:

KC, could you give your top

three

scum reads, in order?

I understand I asked a similar question to DP but I know understand what DP was saying when he typed up his refusal. He didn't want to help the NK process for scum.

So I would like to ask Vox what exactly were you wanting to know when you asked me that question? Trying to find the most unpopular player?

[AurorusVox]

KC: Two problems with your post

(1) You said you thought TL was town yesterday. But your reason for finding him town has only just become apparent? Are you perhaps pleading ignorance to TL's cop crumb yesterday so it can't be pegged against you in terms of his NK?

(2) If you posit that I'm scum, you ought also to logically posit that I killed TL because I thought he was the cop. However, your main reason for FoSing me is that I asked for 3 top suspects to assist my NK choice. Why would I need assistance with the NK choice if I felt I had already had discovered the cop?

As for why three suspects: I emphasised three because I wanted to see where you would put people beyond a two-person system. With two people, it's easy for scum to put two townies and avoid reasoning against their buddy. With three people, scum tend to include their buddy for distancing purposes. I find it interesting that your top two are townies. If I hadn't asked for top three, you'd have just kept on mentioning DP and Shotty (both townies). This was the purpose for asking for three.

[xvart]

Hello everyone. Happy hunting. I read through the entire thread during the night phase, but I left all my notes at my office so I'll have to post those tomorrow (or later tonight if I walk my dog by my office).

AV - to answer your question about the crumbs I'll say that I didn't pick up on the crumbs until someone pointed them out. I was going to go back and read to pick up any crumbs but they were already posted. Of course, picking up bread crumbs isn't my strong suit.

I also want to say that I was extremely disappointed that the shotty lynch didn't go through on D1.

Also, for the new players in the game, we are currently in Lynch or Lose (LYLO) so if we don't lynch scum today we lose. So don't go throwing votes around all willy nilly because the scum team could come in and quick lynch if you are voting a townie. And I guess a mass claim doesn't really matter at this point since all our power roles are dead, unless someone wants to claim the scum RBer.

I am pretty confident that VV is scum, but I'll wait until I get my notes back before launching into that.

xvart.

[Kingcheese]

KC: Two problems with your post

(1) You said you thought TL was town yesterday. But your reason for finding him town has only just become apparent? Are you perhaps pleading ignorance to TL's cop crumb yesterday so it can't be pegged against you in terms of his NK?

(2) If you posit that I'm scum, you ought also to logically posit that I killed TL because I thought he was the cop. However, your main reason for FoSing me is that I asked for 3 top suspects to assist my NK choice. Why would I need assistance with the NK choice if I felt I had already had discovered the cop?

As for why three suspects: I emphasised three because I wanted to see where you would put people beyond a two-person system. With two people, it's easy for scum to put two townies and avoid reasoning against their buddy. With three people, scum tend to include their buddy for distancing purposes. I find it interesting that your top two are townies. If I hadn't asked for top three, you'd have just kept on mentioning DP and Shotty (both townies). This was the purpose for asking for three.

Fair enough. As I wrote out my post I thought of your number 2 point to an extent but decided I would post in anyway to see what you would say.

Regarding number 1 I did not see it. I had pegged TL town for the reasons I highlighted in my previous posts.

I would like to see what xvart and vas have to say. And of course shotty. If your gonna bring your game shotty, nows the time bud.

And lastly regarding your last note I honestly did not have a third scum choice. Yourself and Vas just seemed to slide under the radar but didnt seem as scummy as Shotty or DP.

I'm rethinking my position on Leech/xvart and at this point everyone is at a moot point because I really don't have a clear scum read on anyone. Leech seemed town to me most of the game, but from reading his prior games I found that in some of the games he played in some of the times he seemed like the most pro town he was in fact scum.

So welcome to Xvart and lets get this day started.

[AurorusVox]

KC: So you only thought TL was a cop during the night? Or are you saying that you only retroactively found the crumbs after seeing that he was cop?

xvart: by "pointed them out" do you mean explicitly (as in, today) or when I told Leech to look closer at TL's posts?

Still after VV's take, and I'm very interested to see Shotty's opinion on the players left alive.

[xvart]

xvart: by "pointed them out" do you mean explicitly (as in, today) or when I told Leech to look closer at TL's posts?

I meant today.

xvart.

[Kingcheese]

KC: So you only thought TL was a cop during the night? Or are you saying that you only retroactively found the crumbs after seeing that he was cop?

xvart: by "pointed them out" do you mean explicitly (as in, today) or when I told Leech to look closer at TL's posts?

Still after VV's take, and I'm very interested to see Shotty's opinion on the players left alive.

I found them after seeing he flipped cop. I was rereading the thread looking for scum candidates and decided to check out the argument between thelonging and Leech as I really didn't look into that much and was more focused on Dp and Shotty. Thats when I came across those two posts. To be honest I'm surprised and laughing at myself because I did not catch it to begin with. Considering I did ask him why he was so sure.

[drmyshottyizsik]

KC is scum, end of story

[AurorusVox]

^KC's post: Right, so that accounts for why you thought TL was town but not Shotty.

...My problem is that the only real reason one would have for considering TL to be town fmpov was that he crumbed cop. By this I mean that his play was pretty scummy. So my issue with your reasoning is that it looks a little like you

knew

he was town (like it seemed D1 that you knew Shotty was town) without really having a convincing reason.

[drmyshottyizsik]

vote KC

[Kingcheese]

vote KC

I guess everyone's posts this day and Vel's very nice post previous wasn't enough. You are in jeopardy of losing it for the town shotty. what. the. hell. Are you having trouble reading? And I think for about the 20th time I would like to ask why. WHY. Is it that I am so scummy that it doesn't need an explanation.

Remind me to replace out of any new games you and I are in from this point forward.

@Vox: If you remember right I didn't have a convincing reason why I thought Avish was town. I thought TL was town the same reason you thought he was town BEFORE the breadcrumb. Which was the fact that the argument between Leech and him seemed town. He didn't come up scummy to me at any point other than his first post where he was rather aggressive. Once I figured out it was his play style he slowly moved up into my town zone. If you remember for most of that day I had Shotty scum and TL town. If I would have picked up on the breadcrumb I think I would have backed off on that.

And I'm not really convinced on your Leech argument Vox. Yea it seems like it's may be logical but it wasn't that noticable of a breadcrumb. Or at least not to me. People miss stuff. And Leech's activity kinda of tailed towards the post of the breadcrumb.

[VasudeVa]

Hold it, reading... >.>.

[VasudeVa]

I really wish Leech was here to answer these accusations. I tried to press him on this yesterday without explicitly outing TL's crumbs, but he didn't seem to notice or engage with it. What makes me uncertain about Leech being scum is that before I noticed TL's crumbs, I felt exactly the same way about TL. All of the points Leech brought up were valid, imo, but were mitigated by his crumb. What makes me uncertain about Leech being town is that I find it very hard to believe that Leech failed to see the crumbs. He strikes me as a competent player, and the oversight feels as though it could have been fabricated.

I don't get this. Leech is scum because he missed a crumb? FWIW, I missed the 'crumb' too. I thought it was just TL sucking it up and not voting obv VT shotty despite what he said. Besides, I didn't want to assume that we even had a cop.

I understand I asked a similar question to DP but I know understand what DP was saying when he typed up his refusal. He didn't want to help the NK process for scum.

So I would like to ask Vox what exactly were you wanting to know when you asked me that question? Trying to find the most unpopular player?

You just admitted that you asked DP a similar question...but now you're FOSing AV for something you did too?

Besides, nothing wrong with asking those. True, Mafia do get an idea who's popular/not BUT it helps get reads. Especially if people are holding back reads. I like to analyze these myself.

---

I'm not sure if I like or dislike shotty's vote. KC is a suspect, but I'll have to get my thoughts in order before I pursue anything.

Bigger better badder reread in the works. >.>.

[AurorusVox]

Actually KC, you'll see that this is the post that made me think he was cop. My argument for town-on-town came later and was a result of me thinking TL was cop(=town), not the other way around. Also, with this as the first of many crumbs, I don't accept Leech's inactivity had anything to do with him supposedly missing it, since Leech was still active at this point and after it.

I understand people might miss things but (and no offence meant by this) Leech is more experienced than you and I would have expected him to see it. Also, I told Leech to read TL's posts carefully - which he did - but he still missed it. I don't find it that odd that

you

claim to have missed it, but I do find it hard to believe that Leech specifically claims to have. Lastly, even if you did pick it up (as scum), not letting on that you'd seen it meant you could continue pushing Shotty as scum, so the fact that you had TLtown and Shottyscum doesn't really placate me either :\

---

VV: you deny it too? Why didn't you go after TL yesterday then? I mean, seriously guys. He was saying "I know Shotty is town" / "with what I know" / "read between the lines" - how could you NOT have seen it? Funny how you all claim to have missed seeing the crumb. Sounds like someone (Leech/VV would be my guess) picked up the claim, kept quiet about it, and then told their buddy in the QT to deny knowledge.

---

With Shotty as clear, the lack of quicklynch attempt leads me to think that KC is scum. Either he's scum with VV (which is why VV didn't vote) or VV didn't attempt it because VV is town (=xvart/KC scumteam). Either option leads to KCscum.

Then again, xvart hasn't posted since shotty's vote. Maybe VVscum is waiting for that ><"