Mini 149: Open Role Mafia - Game Over


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Post Post #50 (ISO) » Thu Dec 30, 2004 3:30 pm

Post by MeMe »

I still think I'm right about this, but it's rather useless arguing about it if my points haven't already convinced you. I'll give it one last try, though:

The point about him being sane making the his investigatee in more danger if revealed is, to me, obvious. The mod has told us that we know without a doubt that his investigations are accurate. Usually, the cop's sanity is in doubt and the mafia could leave a player investigated as "innocent" alive as no one knows what the investigation really means. In this case, we know that the exposed innocent will have a huge target on him/her (and that's assuming that HM even tells us the truth -- something at which we can only guess).

As for HM's statement here...
HairyMezican wrote:Plus, if they kill the person I reveal to be innocent, that leaves me alive for one more day to try to investigate somebody else, until I actually find mafia.
...I find it rather inflated. Why should someone become a sacrifice to keep him alive? We don't know whether or not he's innocent. And, again, what if the innocent he exposes is a hidden power role? Isn't it more worthwhile to KEEP that role hidden? As mole pointed out, Dourgrim already has to choose whether to protect himself or HM -- do we really want him to have another innocent thrown into the mix so that it becomes a 33% chance that he'll protect the right one rather than a 50% chance (actually 25% from 33% as the deputy's pretty important, too)? Let's have a little example here: what if I'm the one HM investigated...and what if I'm, say, an undercover cop or doctor? What's more valuable? An out-in-the-open cop/doc or one that the mafia doesn't know about? I argue it's the latter and exposing an innocent will probably force him/her to expose their hidden role if they have one.

But, whatever. I'm not gonna keep arguing the point -- I'll just content myself with having my opinion on record and pointing out that some of the people arguing are probably not pro-town. If you're convinced revealing is the way to go and have the support of a few others, I doubt my thoughts will carry much weight.
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Post Post #51 (ISO) » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:30 pm

Post by Stewie »

Well, you didn't convince me MeMe, but that's because I already thought that way. If you won't try to convince them otherwise later on, I will. At least for a bit. :)
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Post Post #52 (ISO) » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:22 pm

Post by Malaprop »

I remain unconvinced, partially because this is title Open Role Mafia and I don't see any reason that the mod would start with that premise just to throw it away immediately.

I agree that we probably have one scum in the non-vanilla-townie roles and the rest in the vanilla townies. Maybe a smaller mafia, I dunno. I'd like to think the town has something balancing our lack of secrecy.
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Post Post #53 (ISO) » Thu Dec 30, 2004 5:42 pm

Post by Stewie »

what premise are you talking about?
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Post Post #54 (ISO) » Fri Dec 31, 2004 5:58 am

Post by Jaguar »

Unless the town also has some hidden roles, I am thinking that the mafia has a serious advantage over us, but either way, I don't know that revealing the results is going to help us any. Just because he's a cop, doesn't mean he can't be scum and as such could be giving us wrong information. Unless the cop has found scum, I don't think it's necessary to reveal investigation results yet.

As for scummy-ness, Cubs hasn't shown up in a while! Other than that, I am completely clueless when it comes to scummy vibes. Lazarus has a bit of a power role, but it doesn't seem to be overly useful unless Lazarus has additional information that would help him make a decision on preventing a lynch.
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Post Post #55 (ISO) » Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:15 am

Post by MeMe »

So...what's shakin' everyone?
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Post Post #56 (ISO) » Sat Jan 01, 2005 12:11 pm

Post by mlaker »

Happy New Year! I'm tempted to vote for lurkers but it's still around the holidays so some might not be able to post as much.
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Post Post #57 (ISO) » Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:31 am

Post by mole »

Hm, so the town's (well, those who have commented so far) well-divided on the revealing issue. I'd like to hear more from the others about this.
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Post Post #58 (ISO) » Sun Jan 02, 2005 3:40 am

Post by SpeedyKQ »

Vote count:

3 lazarusmoth (HairyMezican, Stewie, mlaker)
1 Jaguar (Xanthe)
1 MeMe (Malaprop)
1 mlaker (cubsfan4life)

5 Not voting (Dourgrim, Jaguar, lazarusmoth, MeMe, mole)

6 to lynch
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Post Post #59 (ISO) » Sun Jan 02, 2005 6:11 am

Post by Malaprop »

Stewie: the premise I was talking about in 52 is that it's "Open Role Mafia". Sorry, thought that was clear from the way I worded things.
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Post Post #60 (ISO) » Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:16 am

Post by Cubsfan4life »

Unvote: mlaker
since it was random.

My gut is telling me that HM revealing results right now is a bad idea. I can't help but be paranoid that he's scum, in which place we'd have a very difficult time winning.
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89-73... an improvement if you look at it that way.
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Post Post #61 (ISO) » Sun Jan 02, 2005 1:06 pm

Post by Stewie »

Well, I don't think that Speedy put one scum in the non-vanilla townies and two in the vanilla townies, mainly because it would make the game unbalanced. Roles are probably randomly distributed. We could have 3 non-vanilla as mafia just like we could have 3 vanilla as mafia.

I'm just saying this because, if something happens to me at night, I won't be able to remind you that because we lynched one non-vanilla townie it doesn't mean that we should only look into the vanilla townies. Also, it makes more sense for it to be random so it can't be metagamed.
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Post Post #62 (ISO) » Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:22 pm

Post by SpeedyKQ »

11 players
24 hours
0 posts

I'll set a deadline if this persists.
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Post Post #63 (ISO) » Mon Jan 03, 2005 1:41 pm

Post by lazarusmoth »

Ok, so I'm going to have to work with the idea that ANYONE can be mafia, that mafia roles have been assigned randomly. If that has been satisfactorily established, let us move on to the business of catching scum.
There are so many questions I'd like to ask, but we are left watching the checkered board. Our eyes pass over the symmetry. I wish it were possible to achieve such mimicry, to move our pieces in peace ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ my bishops to church, your wild horses to stable.
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Post Post #64 (ISO) » Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:26 pm

Post by MeMe »

So...apparently Dourgrim hates all that Day one
posting
nonsense too, eh? Though, as Speedy pointed out, he's not killing the game singlehandedly.

Come on, someone make some really controversial vote so that we can all either join it or pounce on you for placing it! You know...kinda like
I
usually do... :|
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Post Post #65 (ISO) » Mon Jan 03, 2005 6:38 pm

Post by Stewie »

I'd unvote and vote for whoever has more votes, but...
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Post Post #66 (ISO) » Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:15 am

Post by Jaguar »

Happy New Year everyone. Now on with the game.

Could Dourgrim's not posting be another case of the holidays? Hopefully he drops by soon.

As for Cubs, just two lines? Come one. We need more than that. You don't show up for days and come here to post two lines about HM not revealing his results.

MeMe, I'm not sure about controversial vote, but I'm all for getting the game moving.
vote: Lazarusmoth
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Post Post #67 (ISO) » Tue Jan 04, 2005 6:32 am

Post by mole »

Dourgrim hasn't posted since the 30th. It's probably holidays, but there's nothing in the thread so it might be some sort of dreaded internet malfunction.

Anyway, that has lazarus at two from lynch and I'm not sure what kind of benefit we're going to get from the bandwagon. We already have his roleclaim, we already know it's true, so it's going to be difficult to "get the game moving" without lynching him.

I'd just like to have something more to go on than "it's better than a random vote".
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Post Post #68 (ISO) » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:33 am

Post by Stewie »

How about we test his ability. I can't think of how this would work (given that if we test it on somoene that we think innocent and it doesn't work, we'd be lynching them for good, and if we test it on someone that we think is scum and it works, then we would have to wait until the next day to get rid of him/her). But maybe we could narrow it down to two people, test his role, and if it works lynch the other.
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Post Post #69 (ISO) » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:39 am

Post by Xanthe »

I think the roles we know about will work as described regardless of whether or not the player is pro-town.

Unvote: Jaguar
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Post Post #70 (ISO) » Tue Jan 04, 2005 9:51 am

Post by MeMe »

I agree, Xanthe. If a role doesn't function as written, it should be held against the mod, not the player.
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Post Post #71 (ISO) » Tue Jan 04, 2005 1:50 pm

Post by lazarusmoth »

Ok. If the objective of the game is to "get it moving" then why don't the rest of you vote for me.

If the objective of the game is to catch scum, how about *gasp* we exercise a wee bit more patience and open up for discussion.
There are so many questions I'd like to ask, but we are left watching the checkered board. Our eyes pass over the symmetry. I wish it were possible to achieve such mimicry, to move our pieces in peace ├óÔé¼ÔÇ£ my bishops to church, your wild horses to stable.
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Post Post #72 (ISO) » Thu Jan 06, 2005 3:49 am

Post by mole »

Given that's it still appears to be the only thing we've had a useful discussion about, why don't you give us your thoughts on the cop and what he should do with his results?
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Post Post #73 (ISO) » Thu Jan 06, 2005 4:59 am

Post by MeMe »

If I could vote, I'd probably go for mlaker at this point.

1) votes lazarus based on my point, even while saying he doesn't think it really merits a vote
2) defends the vote as "better than random"
3) says he's tempted to go for lurkers (a group in which he fits nicely)

Just sayin'.
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Post Post #74 (ISO) » Thu Jan 06, 2005 8:32 am

Post by Xanthe »

Nobody answered my question:
Xanthe wrote:Would the people against HM revealing feel differently if he survives until tomorrow and reports that he has two useful investigations?
MeMe wrote:What's more valuable? An out-in-the-open cop/doc or one that the mafia doesn't know about? I argue it's the latter and exposing an innocent will probably force him/her to expose their hidden role if they have one.
Why would an innocent, named by HM as his investigation target - and he's already said he got an innocent result - reveal their hidden power role, if they had one? Isn't a major point of the argument against him revealing that it exposes the named innocent? Why would they make their situation even worse by claiming their role?

On the whole though, more experienced players have come out against the cop revealing than for it - and they can't all be scum.

I've been looking for a new candidate, and I like MeMe's arguments, so:

Vote: mlaker


Any news of Dourgrim?

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