Open 662: Fire and Ice (Game Over)

[Transcend]

why're you playing so cautiously

speak your mind bub

[Gamma Emerald]

@Gamma - what are your thoughts on my defense?

I think you are town who struggled to make their POV known.

[Gamma Emerald]

why're you playing so cautiously

speak your mind bub

It's setup info that I don't know whether it benifits scum to know it or not.

[Joshz]

i would just say it because this is not a new setup

[Transcend]

errrr alrighty then

agree with josh

[Io]

There's like only 1 way to play this anyways. What we don't discuss is who the scum should be killing.

[Kmd4390]

No. If it's useless for town but might help scum, don't say it. Only if it's useful for town

[Joshz]

if its useless he shouldnt want to say it ://

[Transcend]

sorry i just like to know what everyone is thinking always

that's why i post reads lists often and that's why i determine if people's reads are legit or not.

[Kmd4390]

Not everything is good to know though. For example, if I think I know who the doc is, I'm sure as hell not saying so. That's basic mafia.

[culted]

BK asking for setup strategy advice was weird when town don't have power roles other than the doc which doesn't help with setup breaking, but it looks like a town thought process trying to use the setup to get ahead.

How so?

[culted]

Culted, is your secret tell on nn that he gave 3 scum reads with a "/" pairing two of them but didn't do that with the other?

No.

[culted]

Transcend is probably town for reaction testing culted.

Where did he reaction test me?

[Joshz]

Not everything is good to know though. For example, if I think I know who the doc is, I'm sure as hell not saying so. That's basic mafia.

well duh. thats different from having something you 'WANT' to say though. i have a high enough opinion of gamma that if he knew (suspected) who the doc was he wouldnt mention it. i am like transcend, i like knowing everyones thoughts always (and subsequently hate lurkers and post a ton myself), and if it wasnt immediately obvious to gamma as helping scum it probably doesnt in a significant way. granted this is his discretion but he got me curios and i know id be wondering personally if he didnt say it.

[culted]

Ok, I'm not going to get through here

And how did that interaction with gamma affect your read?

[culted]

BK's point on nn, when combined with my own concerns, is enough that I can definitely sheep that if needed, especially if transcend and gamma are the only other choices.

Which point?

[Kmd4390]

It would be so much easier if that was all one post but...

The BK thing looked town because true setup breaking benefits town and he was inviting people to look at a way to do that. Unless he already had an idea of how to manipulate it, it's a genuine attempt to help us. And in a setup that can't be broken, there's no way to manipulate it.

Transcend's reaction test was calling a vote a hammer when it wasn't. It's town because if he got a genuine town reaction from you, he'd be reducing the lynch pool which hurts scum.

Interacting with gamma really didn't help much. He didn't seem to understand what I was saying.

The point on nn I was talking about was the one about him townreading Transcend until Transcend voted him which is when he OMGUS voted.

Josh, I was just using an extreme example to make my point.

[Not_Mafia]

VOTE: nn30

[culted]

The BK thing looked town because true setup breaking benefits town and he was inviting people to look at a way to do that. Unless he already had an idea of how to manipulate it, it's a genuine attempt to help us. And in a setup that can't be broken, there's no way to manipulate it.

Suppose a better question would be if it came off like he wasn't familiar with the setup at all?
Because the only way that post looks town to me, is if it's coming from a place of genuine intrigue. Then townreading him for coming at the setup trying to break it would make sense right. But if he knows there's nothing breakable about it it's fluff at best.

Does BK seem like a smart guy who's played a lot of mafia?

[culted]

Transcend's reaction test was calling a vote a hammer when it wasn't. It's town because if he got a genuine town reaction from you, he'd be reducing the lynch pool which hurts scum.

I hadn't even noticed that. Not a very good reaction test heh.

The point on nn I was talking about was the one about him townreading Transcend until Transcend voted him which is when he OMGUS voted.

Okay let me find it.

Transcend is a town read - I meta dove him a while ago and this feels like his town game.

NN goes from a town-read based on "meta dive"....

@Town - If I get lynched in the next ~5 hours, look to Transcend and Culted.

Transcend's rainbow bs read list reeks of trying too hard and his read on me reeks of trying to turn me into lynchbait.

Only to throw that all of that out when Transcend votes him. Like Trancend's town meta = he doesn't vote NN, or what? It just seems like bullshit. And the line about acting like he is going to get lynched just seems like an unauthentic transition, just being dramatic so he doesn't get lynched.

Why do you (and BK can answer this too) think that it doesn't make sense for nn30 to change his mind here?
Was he 'acting like he was going to be lynched' or just saying 'if I'm lynched' there's a difference.
And we'll give the benefit of the doubt that he was acting like he would be lynched as well just for this question; why does that lend more validity to it being an "unauthentic transition"?

[Io]

Transcend's reaction test was calling a vote a hammer when it wasn't. It's town because if he got a genuine town reaction from you, he'd be reducing the lynch pool which hurts scum.

I hadn't even noticed that. Not a very good reaction test heh.

Yeah didn't even notice that RT

[Kmd4390]

Culted,

It's not about intelligence or experience with BK. If he's played this setup before, you have a point though. Do you have evidence of that?

*shrug*. I don't necessarily think it was a good reaction test either, but my point stands regardless.

On nn, it's more about the switch to Transcend for me than about his own lynch. He's perfectly cool with Transcend being town for meta reasons until Transcend votes him. Then suddenly Transcend is scummy? I don't buy it. It seems more like blatant OMGUS than genuine suspicion. The progression just isn't there and the only thing that changed is Transcend suspected nn.

[SnarkySnowman]

I'm still waiting to see Transcend lynched

[nn30]

The re-read that isn't pressed for time:

I don't like Not_Mafia's 110. While possibly still RVS, it's weak. He follows it by sheeping in 119. On the other hand I like 151. He's either soft defending a partner here or just doesn't think it's a good vote. Probs town motivated here. He does it again in 163. Probably not a method of soft defense.

I don't like that Gamma felt the need to defend his RVS vote in 127. His defense in 198 is fairly flimsy. I also don't know why he feels the need to defend himself for such a flimsy vote. I also don't like 203. We scum hunt in this game - trying to flip the burden of proof from 'prove he's scum' to 'prove he's town' feels really off IMO. 205 feels like grasping at straws. I really don't like 220 followed by 222. I get that Transcend has this effect on people, but this doesn't feel like the kind of play I'm accustomed to from Gamma. I don't get how Transcend has Not_Mafia as top town in 251 though. Gamma's 301 is preatty weak. Gamma's 477 once again feels too defensive.

Josh is a town read. I like his 131. I feel like most scum, and especially newb scum, would answer rather than just saying no. I liked his exchange with me in recent pages too - they felt town motivated to me. For example 450.

I like Realo a lot right now. He goes for discussion: 165.

I'm coming around to an IO town read for things like 190 and 254 and 316. Good thought process here.

Rory should prepare to SR me for 204. I'm working on it, but my town game is full of shite cases. He makes a good point on Snarky in 289.

I don't like Culted's sheep in 225. I especially don't like the sheep in 249 but I'm biased here, heh.

I still don't like Snarky's 271. I like what Rory pointed out in 289 and I think it's weird that Snarky hasn't really pushed Gamma.

Kmd's entrance in 314 feels towny. His 339 advice feels warm and fuzzy too.

I still don't like Bk's 341. I recently finished a game where 1) I tried to scum hunt by finding contradictions (it didn't work - town say contradictory shit all the time) and 2) scum tried to point out contradictions in a townie to try and get me to scum read them. For this reason I don't like Bk's 360 either. I feel like BK has been around long enough to know better than to scum hunt like this (2500 posts total on MS). BK's 422 is also weak.

I still like Realeo for his treatment of me and my wagon. He's either trying to pocket me in doing so or he's actually trying to discern alignment. I lean the latter.

Reads summary

Town
Transcend - his ability to reconsider lynching me feels town.
Josh - he's getting scum read for being new, not because he's scum. His behavior towards feels quite town.
IO - good thought processes.
Realeo - took the path of least resistance rather than speed lynching me.
KMD - entrance and thought processes have felt good so far.

Null
Not_Mafia - I think his existence on my wagon is justifiable. His early game was a bit sheepy but I also like his 'not a good vote' posts.
Culted - recent activity has struck me as odd. Need to look more UNVOTE:
Rory - not sure.
Aristo - null. Hasn't done anything.


Scum
Gamma - too defensive IMO. Also not scum hunting much.
BK - detailed above. Basically he's content with voting for bad reasons and he sheeps too much.
Snarky - I hate his laugh reaction to Transcend. It feels forced.

VOTE: Gamma for reasons detailed above.

[Realeo]

Nn (rpg), my question