Newbie 1024 -- Minimalist Mafia (Game Over)

[Neruz]

I think Mastin's putting way too much on very limited meta examples, to be perfectly honest.

Meta can be useful, but you need a very large sample space.

[Mute]

Sticking with my guns from the day before

Vote: Nachomamma8

Mastin's info was certainly insightful, but I still hold him suspicious so my opinion's kinda moot.

[Trendall]

If you feel this is too long of a wait, feel free to replace me, however, I personally recommend against it,

for a few reasons I'm about to explain in a PM to you.

Don't like this. Care to share those reasons with us?

[Kayi]

Everyone

: Who are your current suspicions? I'm getting a bit lost here. Also, where's Jay? And why does Yenros and Nacho continue to actively lurk like their life depended on it?

Trendall, Mastin just made a very long ISO/case on/against you. Nothing to say about it?

I still think Meta is very unreliable because one learns a lot with experience. What Mastin says seems valid to an extent, but I'm not fully convinced by it. Nothing seems to be a strong indicator that Trendall is acting radically different than he has in the past.

I'm going to be V/LA

for at least three weeks. As in, no access during weekdays, probably will be able to get a post or two on weekends if I'm lucky.

Mod

, if you feel that I should be replaced at least temporarily, then whatever's best for the game. I'd like to keep participating once my schedule allows it though. I'm learning a lot from this game.

[Mute]

@Kayi: My suspicions remain unchanged from D2.

[Trendall]

Everyone

: Who are your current suspicions? I'm getting a bit lost here.

Here's a summary. Main two suspects at the moment are:

Mastin

* Didn't hammer on Nacho, despite how Nacho and I were equal top of his suspects list. By his own logic, this should mean he is scum, as he is being cautious/fencesitting.
* Tunneling HARD on me, and only switched focus to Nacho when it became clear that other people were wanting to vote for him.
* Lots of inconsistencies in his arguments
- Says that he pulls examples from off-site if necessary. Says that my argument based on another site is irrelevant.
- Says that he uses examples from past games no matter how old they are. Says my argument based on old data is invalid.
- Says my 'you should know better' argument is invalid. Uses the argument 'you should know better than to play like this' against me.
- Says that my 'fencesitting' is scummy. 'Fencesits' himself when it comes to Nacho.
- Uses minor details in his argument. Writes one of my arguments off as a 'minor detail'
- Uses the argument 'Beefster seems to be making a lot out of nothing'. When I use a similar argument against him later on, he says it's invalid.
* Says that Mute would die in the night for sure, despite the obvious possibility that mafia still have reasons to leave him alive. Does the classic 'omg the mafia did that? I can't believe it' when Mute doesn't die during the night.
* Few if any actual solid arguments against people.
- Arguments based on gut
- Arguments based on Meta
- Arguments based on totally inaccurate and baseless leaps of logic (eg. if Trendall said this, this means he should have acted like this)
- Arguments that are just weird (Jay random voted the doctor)
* Posting lots of information, and far less analysis.
* Uses a lot of semantics arguments to worm his way out of accusations ('that thing I said against Jay wasn't a case so you can't criticise me for it', 'Anti-town, scummy, and scumtell are all separate' etc.)

There's probably more, but that's just the stuff that I can find/remember right now.

Nacho

* Mastin, who is my top suspect, didn't hammer on him. That's all I've got on him at the moment.

---

Trendall, Mastin just made a very long ISO/case on/against you. Nothing to say about it?

Lol, have you read any of it? Mastin's entire argument against me is based on comparing random things that I've done in this game to random things that I've done in two other games, neglecting the hundreds of other games that I've played off site. I mean, look at his first point about me in post #510. 'Trendall mentions his unusual schedule in both games. This is a consistency, so he's more likely to be town'. As if me mentioning my unusual schedule is in any way relevant to which alignment I am. I mean, seriously? That point alone is just absolutely...there's not even an adjective powerful enough to describe how irrelevant and absurd it is.

If you want me to go through everything that Mastin has said and point out why it is wrong, then fine, I will. However, I really don't see a need to, seeing as everybody else should be able to work out for themselves why his whole argument is just null and void just by reading it.

[Trendall]

Hmm.

Kayi, who are your current suspicions?

[Neruz]

I'm pretty sure i've already stated my suspicions fairly clearly, but i can restate them easily enough;

Nacho is my primary scum suspect.
Mastin is a 'dead' read who is clouding up the game and making it difficult for me to be confident about my reads.
Trendall worries me a little.

[Trendall]

In what way, Neruz? As far as I can remember, this is the first time you've mentioned this.

[Jay]

I didn't realize how busy I'd be. Sorry I haven't posted in such a long time... Tomorrow, I'll get on and state my suspicions. Right now my main suspicion is still Nacho, like in Day 2, but I haven't read all of (most of) Mastin's giant string of posts yet, so I'll get through that, review my suspicions, and try and make a post. Once again, sorry for the inactivity and this fluff post.

[Neruz]

In what way, Neruz? As far as I can remember, this is the first time you've mentioned this.

No, i mentioned it ages back when i first noticed the big fight between you and Mastin.

[Trendall]

That doesn't answer my question.

[RedCoyote]

Mod:

You already know I'm a bit V/LA, right now, however,

Extreme V/LA until Christmas Day

I'm going to be V/LA

for at least three weeks. As in, no access during weekdays, probably will be able to get a post or two on weekends if I'm lucky.

I'll prod every 4 days of no activity and replace you if you do not post afterward.

This rule is still in effect. I appreciate the fact that you both want to stay in the game. I encourage y'all to. Try your hardest to set aside some time to check on the game and post, even if it's a brief (yes, Mastin, there is such a thing ) post. I don't need to explain why constant activity from all players is important to the game of Mafia.

---

Vote Count 3

• Mastin

  (Neruz - Trendall)
  
  
  Yenros

  (Nachomamma8)

  
  

  Nachomamma8

  (Mute)

  
  

  Not Voting

  (Jay - Kayi - Mastin - Yenros)

With eight alive, it takes five to lynch.

Current Deadline: Jan. 4th, 2011 at 1:30 PM

[Neruz]

That doesn't answer my question.

Then you clearly weren't paying attention back on page 17:

Atm i'm about even on Trendall and Mastin. On the one hand i have serious concerns that Mastin may be trying to obfuscate poor arguments deliberately, on the other hand the speed at which Trendall picked up what looked like a possible Mastin wagon worries me.

Both are pretty light though, certainly i don't feel either is enough to justify a vote.

[Jay]

Okay, so I got through all of the new posts. It took me awhile, and Mastin's most are somewhat... perplexing. For example, he discussed Burden of Proficiency at length in the past, saying that it was a fallacy and should not be used. However, in his meta-read-thing of Trendall he adds points when Trendall uses BoP correctly and deducts points when he uses it incorrectly. This is like saying, "This is a fallacy when it is used against the wrong person, but with scum it is a perfectly good scumtell." He later does the same thing with fencesitting, splitting into two categories, 'town-fencesitting,' and 'scum-fencesitting,' or something like that. Before I asked Mastin about why he thought Trendall's (according to Mastin) fencesitting was scummy, and he told me about how I could ask any veteran mafia player and they would tell me that it was a valid scumtell. Well, if he felt so strongly about it why did he give Trendall points for it? Besides that, how can you tell if someone is town-fencesitting and scum-fencesitting? Doesn't that just go back to gut, eventually, which we've already talked about whether it is valid? I suppose these points could just be to see if his play is consistent, but then you include them in his final score, which is to determine whether he is scum or town.

@Neruz: If Nacho is your top suspect and Mastin is only a dead read, why aren't you voting for Nacho instead?

[Trendall]

Jay, am I right in thinking that Mastin is your top suspect here? If so, why aren't you voting for him?

[Neruz]

@Neruz: If Nacho is your top suspect and Mastin is only a dead read, why aren't you voting for Nacho instead?

Good god, has no-one read any of my posts? I'll reiterate

again:

Because we're at free lynch. Mastin makes it impossible for me to be sure of my reads, so i'd rather lynch him now and then look again at Nacho without having to worry about him.
I

suspect

a Mastin\Nacho team, but Mastin has to go, sooner rather than later.

[Mute]

Jay, am I right in thinking that Mastin is your top suspect here? If so, why aren't you voting for him?

Why're you pressuring him into a vote on a bandwagon? Sounds pretty scummy to me, wanting to get rid of a player by questioning why someone isn't placing a vote on a suspect.

[Neruz]

It's actually a legitimate point. If you believe someone to be scummy, you should be voting them. Believing someone to be scummy but

not

voting them is opportunistic, which is a fairly hefty scumtell.

[Trendall]

Jay, am I right in thinking that Mastin is your top suspect here? If so, why aren't you voting for him?

Why're you pressuring him into a vote on a bandwagon? Sounds pretty scummy to me, wanting to get rid of a player by questioning why someone isn't placing a vote on a suspect.

I'm not pressuring anybody. If he doesn't wanna vote, fine. I'm just asking him why.

[Nachomamma8]

Neruz, what caused your overnight revelation?

I'm still working on a post, yeah.

[Neruz]

Newbie 1027 reminded me that letting people off the hook because of idiocy or otherwise obfuscating posting styles is a bad move, doubly bad when i remember that we have a FL.

[Trendall]

So you're policy lynching him, basically?

[Neruz]

Pretty much. I can't tell if his scumtells are scumtells or idiot tells, so it's safer to just lynch him.

[Neruz]

Actually, idiot tells isn't the right term there, but you probably get what i mean.